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View Full Version : level 20 Wizard vs. THE EMPRAH.



krossbow
2010-05-09, 12:28 AM
http://www.rossel.net/images/Wizard.gif

http://1d4chan.org/images/7/78/Emperor.jpg


Who wins.

Ravingdork
2010-05-09, 12:30 AM
Real winners wear beards, so the wizard prevails.

Prodan
2010-05-09, 12:50 AM
It took 4 Chaos Gods possessing the second most powerful human to ever live to cripple the Emperor.

Temotei
2010-05-09, 12:52 AM
It took 4 Chaos Gods possessing the second most powerful human to ever live to cripple the Emperor.

That's it? Wizard wins.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-09, 12:59 AM
At first I thought he was talking about Palpatine, which is probably a better question anyway.

I'd say the Wizard, given the Genesis to make a one-year-to-one-round plane and cast a year's worth of spells through a Gate before he can even act trick. Plus it would just be an Astral Projection of the Wizard anyway so he wouldn't even be at any personal risk, and he'd even be guaranteed a surprise round with Shapechange: Dire Tortoise.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 01:04 AM
Depends on what point of Emperorness you're refering to. Prime, current, or Godhood.

In his prime, it's an even fight. Emperor is described as an omega level psycher, which is the tier required to blow up a planet by looking at it, so an epic level psion or there abouts. Also much more powerful on a physical level with the augmented stats. Despite the massive boost in toughness, levels, stats and manifester level over the wizard, still only even, as the wizard has far better tricks, assuming he can make one stick.

Current, he's a cripple in a fancy chair. Wizard by far.

In theory, his essence has turned into a chaos god of sorts which will be reborn in a star child. Assuming D&D style of god, which they basically are, the Emperor wins, because he can emulate ninth levels on top of all of his other abilities.

JaronK
2010-05-09, 01:05 AM
The emperor is currently pretty much dead, and exists only as a psychic shiny light. The Wizard can make alternate realities for fun. This isn't a contest.

JaronK

Deth Muncher
2010-05-09, 01:08 AM
Yeah. If the Wiz can Teleport into the Golden Throneroom, Quickened Disintegrate the Golden Throne...yeah. Win.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 01:14 AM
Yeah. If the Wiz can Teleport into the Golden Throneroom, Quickened Disintegrate the Golden Throne...yeah. Win.

Might be a touch harder if he's actually in the golden throne and room. Security there is pretty top notch, even for a wizard. Not saying he couldn't do it, but I am saying there's a reason no chaos warrior in termy armour goony has managed it.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 01:16 AM
Not saying he couldn't do it, but I am saying there's a reason no chaos warrior in termy armour goony has managed it.That reason was probably that they didn't have 20 levels in wizard. :smallwink:

JaronK
2010-05-09, 01:17 AM
Yeah... Chaos Warriors can't cast Genesis. Flowing Time 10,000 + Timeless = Instant Win. The Wizard can just nuke the golden throne over and over until it cracks, with whatever he wants.

JaronK

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 01:23 AM
Yeah... Chaos Warriors can't cast Genesis. Flowing Time 10,000 + Timeless = Instant Win. The Wizard can just nuke the golden throne over and over until it cracks, with whatever he wants.

JaronK

Magnus the red probably can, as he's a roughly 15 000 year old sorcerer, not a psycher. And at the very least, each of the chaos gods created their own personal pocket dimensions, of which at least Tzeentch's has strange time traits based on his whim. In fact, the entire warp has odd flowing time traits, as does any realm in it. The crystal labyranth is the only one that I know of with directed time though. None of them have destroyed the Emperor, despite attempts against him. Keeping in mind instead of the astral, the Imperium has the warp which is the analogue. I do doubt a wizard using genesis would actually survive the warp. If the Emperor were instead in D&D land, I'd actually hedge a bet that a powerful psycher could cast genesis.

Lastly, nuke spells would work, but the security detail for the emperor is a full legion of psion/fighty somethings with an SOD weapon. While a wizard should be able to beat them given enough optimization, it's not exactly as easy as portrayed.


That reason was probably that they didn't have 20 levels in wizard. :smallwink:

Magnus the red is probably around a level 20 gish. Ahriman might be close, even though they blur psionics and magic a bit more in the case of ahriman.

JaronK
2010-05-09, 02:03 AM
Magnus the red probably can, as he's a roughly 15 000 year old sorcerer, not a psycher.

But nothing in that universe allows you to do the kind of stuff D&D Wizards do.


And at the very least, each of the chaos gods created their own personal pocket dimensions, of which at least Tzeentch's has strange time traits based on his whim.

They all live on the same plane, the warp. They don't get pocket dimensions. The warp seems mutable, but it's got distinct attachment points to the material plane (such as the Cadian Gate). They can't just have pocket dimensions that do whatever they want and then open portals to where ever they want, as a D&D Wizard can. The point here is that the Emperor doesn't even get a chance to react, as the Wizard never has to leave his home plane where he has complete control.

JaronK

BobVosh
2010-05-09, 03:15 AM
That reason was probably that they didn't have 20 levels in wizard. :smallwink:

1 casting of ironguard pretty much gets you into and through most anything they can do. Against everything else there is invisibility superior.

jguy
2010-05-09, 03:23 AM
Well I doubt this would be a fight against the Emperor in his current state, a dude locked in a chair.

In his prime I say Emperor since he would just need to look at the Wizard and go all "Scanners" on him.

If you say that epic magic would destroy him, considering that "magic" in 40K world is just controlling the warp, the Emperor would already be able to do everything a wizard could, on his head, while sleeping.

Wouldn't a level 20 wizard get possessed by a demon by then though?

Prodan
2010-05-09, 03:24 AM
There's the problem in crossovers between universes with vastly different magic systems; how do you establish what works and what doesn't?

Meta
2010-05-09, 03:32 AM
Depends what universe the fight happens in.

If 40k, the wizard pops in tries, to cast a bunch of fancy spells and has no inkling he just became food for a warp entity.

If Dnd, the emperor pops in and the wizard pulls shenanigans on homecourt. The emperor dies but gets pulled into w/e Good-Neutral aligned god of justice, war, messiah rulers, you like. Learns all those same fancy tricks. Evens the field. But when the magic's turned off he's still a dragon. :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-05-09, 04:00 AM
The emperor dies but gets pulled into w/e Good-Neutral aligned god of justice, war, messiah rulers, you like.Neutral or good? In the grimdark (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkerAndEdgier?from=Main.GrimDark) future there is only chaotic evil and lawful evil!

One Step Two
2010-05-09, 06:25 AM
See, the fundamental Problem is that there's no way to accurately describe the Emperor's power in either Pre-heresy, Current, or theoretical God-Hood.
Citing written material about the Emperor and his abilities is sketchy due to the, and I use this term generously might I add, fluid nature of official fiction.

So it comes down to setting.

In 40k Terms in the current setting, a level 20 wizard is a counted as (40k) Sorcerer.
Depeding on the laws of causality it may require tapping into the warp to use or prepare his spells. Assuming that it does and the Wizard would (or rather should) have used divinations to learn about the necessary wards and rituals, so he may cast freely without fear of Chaos, he may have several dark entities interested in him, but seeing as his intent is to kill the corpse god? They're gonna watch for now.
Locating the Emperor? Make a simple gather info check. Holy Terra or bust. Now as a level 20 wizard with a prodigious intelligence will do, he will take the time to do some research his for for maximum effect.
After a few divinations and some other skill checks the wizard is entitled to a DC 10 Intelligence check to realise the Emperor is doing a good enough job of dying slow, and possibly agonizing, death on his own. He defeats his opponent by casting Plane Shift and going home.

Oslecamo
2010-05-09, 06:33 AM
In 40k Terms in the current setting, a level 20 wizard is a Sorcerer, one who knows nothing of protecting himself from the nature of the warp, and the moment he tries to cast a spell improperly for the setting, his soul is torn from his body and a Deamon inhabits it as a puppet. Assuming the wizard has foresight to learn about the necessary wards and rituals to allow him to cast freely without fear of Chaos, he now has several dark entities interested in him, but seeing as his intent is to kill the corpse god? They're gonna watch for now.

Nitpick, but that's assuming that vancian arcane casting uses the warp at all. Most 40K psykers draw power from the warp, but there's some that don't need it at all. Ork weirdboys channell the WWWAAAGHHH!!!(altough there's a chance the WWAAAAGGGHHH!!!! is so strong it blows the weirboy's head anyway), and nids channel the will of the hivemind, wich is so strong even the warp gets silent around an hive fleet.

One Step Two
2010-05-09, 06:38 AM
Nitpick, but that's assuming that vancian arcane casting uses the warp at all. Most 40K psykers draw power from the warp, but there's some that don't need it at all. Ork weirdboys channell the WWWAAAGHHH!!!(altough there's a chance the WWAAAAGGGHHH!!!! is so strong it blows the weirboy's head anyway), and nids channel the will of the hivemind, wich is so strong even the warp gets silent around an hive fleet.

Ah, quite correct, Vancian casting means his power is located from his spellbook, no warp shenanigans for him (Assuming no latent pskyer potential), but none of that really changes the outcome. I will ammend my post to relfect the revelation.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 10:39 AM
They all live on the same plane, the warp. They don't get pocket dimensions. The warp seems mutable, but it's got distinct attachment points to the material plane (such as the Cadian Gate). They can't just have pocket dimensions that do whatever they want and then open portals to where ever they want, as a D&D Wizard can. The point here is that the Emperor doesn't even get a chance to react, as the Wizard never has to leave his home plane where he has complete control.

JaronK

Actually, they do live in pocket dimensions. Tzeentch lives in the crystal labyranth, Nurgle in the garden, Khorne in the battle fields and Slaanesh in his pleasure palace carved out in the warp as stable regions that have substance based on the current power of the God in question.

As well, a psyker can open a portal to the warp from whatever as can an astropath. That's the whole point of the astronomicon, which lets the ships access the warp from anywhere. You're thinking of persistent rips in the materium that are more like natural phenomena. As for where they made the pocket dimensions, I don't know if they got to pick where they were. It's rather hard to tell in their case.

As for hitting Terra prime from his own home plane, I actually do doubt that could be easily done, assuming are both in their respective settings. Which set of spells would do that?

As well, most things a D&D wizard can do, I'd bet I can find an example of someone who can do it in 40K. Genesis was actually used by the Emperor prior to his death as he reformed part of the webway into a human habitabal demi plane section. Teleport and plane shift are listed as common daemonic arts, as is forced plane shift, a few hundred hundred means by which you can SoD, AoE or SoS people, and a mass mind rape was also used. The only thing they don't do is combo spells together, but that's generally because the psykers that powerful are insane, not because they can't.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 10:45 AM
Actually, they do live in pocket dimensions. Tzeentch lives in the crystal labyranth, Nurgle in the garden, Khorne in the battle fields and Slaanesh in his pleasure palace carved out in the warp as stable regions that have substance based on the current power of the God in question.

As well, a psyker can open a portal to the warp from whatever as can an astropath. That's the whole point of the astronomicon, which lets the ships access the warp from anywhere. You're thinking of persistent rips in the materium that are more like natural phenomena. As for where they made the pocket dimensions, I don't know if they got to pick where they were. It's rather hard to tell in their case.

As for hitting Terra prime from his own home plane, I actually do doubt that could be easily done, assuming are both in their respective settings. Which set of spells would do that?

As well, most things a D&D wizard can do, I'd bet I can find an example of someone who can do it in 40K. Genesis was actually used by the Emperor prior to his death as he reformed part of the webway into a human habitabal demi plane section. Teleport and plane shift are listed as common daemonic arts, as is forced plane shift, a few hundred hundred means by which you can SoD, AoE or SoS people, and a mass mind rape was also used. The only thing they don't do is combo spells together, but that's generally because the psykers that powerful are insane, not because they can't.

I'm not sure if those count as pocket dimensions though. Based on how the Warp works, its best D&D terminology equivalent would probably be a hybrid of the Astral Plane and Limbo - the personal domains of the Chaos Gods are more like isolated, stable Limbo islands than demiplanes.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 10:48 AM
I'm not sure if those count as pocket dimensions though. Based on how the Warp works, its best D&D terminology equivalent would probably be a hybrid of the Astral Plane and Limbo - the personal domains of the Chaos Gods are more like isolated, stable Limbo islands than demiplanes.

That's pretty much what demiplanes are actually. Most people forget that they are technically islands in the astral plane itself and made of astral materials. Not certain if you can make the entry point to a chaos god's home plane as hard to access as a demiplane, but they otherwise operate as very close analogues.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 11:03 AM
That's pretty much what demiplanes are actually. Most people forget that they are technically islands in the astral plane itself and made of astral materials. Not certain if you can make the entry point to a chaos god's home plane as hard to access as a demiplane, but they otherwise operate as very close analogues.

That is a fairly good point, that demiplanes are technically offshoots of the Astral. The Warp doesn't really function anything like the Astral beyond its existence as the primary transportation route, though, which is why I used the analogy of stable Limbo islands.

Edge
2010-05-09, 11:06 AM
Nitpick, but that's assuming that vancian arcane casting uses the warp at all. Most 40K psykers draw power from the warp, but there's some that don't need it at all. Ork weirdboys channell the WWWAAAGHHH!!!(altough there's a chance the WWAAAAGGGHHH!!!! is so strong it blows the weirboy's head anyway), and nids channel the will of the hivemind, wich is so strong even the warp gets silent around an hive fleet.

Except both of those still involve the Warp. The WAAAGH! is just the psyhic presence of Orkiness in the Warp, and the 'nid hivemind blocks astrotelepathy by clouding the Warp with excessive telepathic signals.

Personally, assuming the Emperor in his prime, I call it even. The Emperor is more powerful than an alpha + psyker, and several guard regiments plus two Space Marine companies have trouble even resisting twelve (if memory serves) of those when they escape on Thracian Primaris.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 11:24 AM
There's the problem in crossovers between universes with vastly different magic systems; how do you establish what works and what doesn't?

We can't assume 40K walks into other realm. They have more restrictions on what you can safely cast in 40K than in D&D, and they use enough limitation devices for it to be known that they aren't playing ball as seriously as they theoretically could. The ones that do die, are possessed or are dragged into the warp and driven mad. I don't think anyone knows what the power of the emperor would be assuming he could cast using another source.

These do apply to arcanists in the 40K setting. We'll ignore that for the wizard, as no one really knows what in particular will set it off on any given go. We'll just say he has protection from evil up.

So, it will have to be in the 40K setting. Only real rules, summons and bindings only get warp monsters. Teleports are through the warp, plane shift only leads to the warp etc. The webway is theoretically around, but is forbidanced unless you use a physical entry point. If you cast genesis, it would work in the warp, not the astral. However, going there when you're a high powered sorcerer means you're instantly eaten by the Gods, unless you have sufficient preparation of which frankly I'd like to see.

Polymorph line works as normal, but polymorphing into any outsider will almost invariable cause immediate possession, even if you're using protection from evil. Because duh, I mean really.

No pun pun etc. for obvious reasons.

Meta abusers are fine. 40K blaster focused types can snap planets in half as collateral damage, so an orbizard tooled to the nines would be a pretty interesting match.

Shields block teleportation and plane shift. This is just to remain consistent with the shields and teleportation within the setting.

JaronK
2010-05-09, 01:22 PM
Except demons just possess you. Protection From Evil/Mindblank should make you invisible to warp creatures and invincible to possession. From here it's a simple matter of firing off a Genesis (best done via Shadowcraft Mage tricks so it takes six seconds, otherwise you'll have to assemble more serious defenses). Once you've got your super speed Genesis, all you have to do is open Gates to whereever the Emperor is hiding and fire through them. Since you're operating at 1,000,000 times normal speed (or more, it's your choice) it's not like there's anything he can do back to you. Use Major Creation to dump gallons of Black Lotus on him, or to drop anvils made of Obdurium on his stuff. Summon various critters to beat on him. Use Effreetis to make wish based attacks. Whatever.

JaronK

Tehnar
2010-05-09, 01:25 PM
A minor distraction, where does it say in the Genesis spell that you can alter the flow of time in the demiplane you created?

JaronK
2010-05-09, 01:30 PM
A minor distraction, where does it say in the Genesis spell that you can alter the flow of time in the demiplane you created?

It says you can shape the environment to be anything you can visualize... remember that the environment is just the basic nature of the plane, and planar traits echo any definition of environment that makes sense to use. Flowing Time is one such trait (you'll also want Timeless).

Note that the divine version of Genesis is identical to the Arcane version, except at the end they add a line that says that you're not allowed to screw with time traits. Evidently after they made the Arcane version they realized how stupid allowing that was, but didn't bother to errata it.

Flowing Time Genesis is basically a high level Wizard trump card. Once that's up, you can't stop them.

JaronK

megabyter5
2010-05-09, 01:34 PM
I think any character with a Genesis demiplane should be allowed to use that demiplane as a focal point to plane shift into a completely different game. If possible, they get new stats for the new rules. If not, have fun with the logical mindscrews when you stage battles using entirely incompatible stats.

Inyssius Tor
2010-05-09, 01:38 PM
The assumption in vs. discussions is that both parties operate as if they were in their own realm, unless the specific location of one is actually plot-relevant as being unusually magical (for instance) in comparison to the rest of that character's universe. Thus Gandalf doesn't need to buy a wand before his cage match with Voldemort, Sauron can physically exist in reality if pitted against the US Marine Corps, and Harry Dresden can fight comic-book Thor despite Dresdenverse gods each being about as powerful as comic-book Galactus.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 01:46 PM
Except demons just possess you. Protection From Evil/Mindblank should make you invisible to warp creatures and invincible to possession. From here it's a simple matter of firing off a Genesis (best done via Shadowcraft Mage tricks so it takes six seconds, otherwise you'll have to assemble more serious defenses). Once you've got your super speed Genesis, all you have to do is open Gates to whereever the Emperor is hiding and fire through them. Since you're operating at 1,000,000 times normal speed (or more, it's your choice) it's not like there's anything he can do back to you. Use Major Creation to dump gallons of Black Lotus on him, or to drop anvils made of Obdurium on his stuff. Summon various critters to beat on him. Use Effreetis to make wish based attacks. Whatever.

JaronK

Actually, perils of the warp is normally being shred apart by demons then having your soul consumed, not possessed. Possession only happens when you do something really dumb like trying to bodily immitate a chaos beast, and can bypass normal protections. Being in the warp itself, they basically gang up and eat your soul.

Inyssius Tor
2010-05-09, 01:48 PM
--that is, we compare the powers of the characters involved, not the physical laws of the worlds in which those characters reside.

As such: the wizard can sunder worlds. The God-Emperor of Mankind is a corpse, the mechanically-sustained phylactery of his disembodied will, which has its metaphorical hands full keeping the entire Imperium from disintegrating. So the wizard pretty much just wins, regardless of circumstance.

... and then the former god-emperor's soul hatches into THE STAR-CHILD, and the wizard is reduced to nothing in one blink of ITS cosmic eye.

Optimystik
2010-05-09, 03:13 PM
Since the Emperor's eyelash is in the Wizard's component pouch (no gp value) then he can create a simulacrum of the Emperor.

Emmerask
2010-05-09, 03:28 PM
How do you know that there is not a collector who pays billions of gp for emperor parts? :smalltongue:

krossbow
2010-05-09, 03:30 PM
How do you know that there is not a collector who pays billions of gp for emperor parts? :smalltongue:


that's heresy citizen. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 03:42 PM
We could try to calculate the value of Imperial body parts by determining how many valid genetic samples a piece can provide, then relating that to the average price of a Grey Knight Space Marine and multiplying by [MAYBE].:smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo
2010-05-09, 03:48 PM
... and then the former god-emperor's soul hatches into THE STAR-CHILD, and the wizard is reduced to nothing in one blink of ITS cosmic eye.

Actualy, the whole star-child theory is desesperate propaganda of a few madmen. The emprah was the star-child once, and even then he was geting his ass kicked by random warbosses.

No, this is the real plan of the emprah for the future:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9645953/images/1273166456574.jpg

Wizard still wins of course.:smalltongue:

krossbow
2010-05-09, 04:08 PM
Actualy, the whole star-child theory is desesperate propaganda of a few madmen. The emprah was the star-child once, and even then he was geting his ass kicked by random warbosses.

No, this is the real plan of the emprah for the future:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9645953/images/1273166456574.jpg

Wizard still wins of course.:smalltongue:



Wonder how much that would cost to deploy

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 04:24 PM
And if it'd still die instantly if hit by a wraithcannon.

Stupid Eldar....grumblegrumble.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 04:27 PM
Actualy, the whole star-child theory is desesperate propaganda of a few madmen. The emprah was the star-child once, and even then he was geting his ass kicked by random warbosses.

No, this is the real plan of the emprah for the future:

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/9645953/images/1273166456574.jpg

Wizard still wins of course.:smalltongue:


Actually prior to the "imperial truth" propoganda, there were no individuals who believed he was a God (save 1 chapter of spehss mareens and a few worlds that they conquered) because he preached atheism, which kills the chaos gods and calms the warp. It was only after the Eclessiarchy got heavily involved in the evolution of the dogma of the imperium that there was enough faith in the Emperor to start the formation of the star child.

Oslecamo
2010-05-09, 04:46 PM
Actually prior to the "imperial truth" propoganda, there were no individuals who believed he was a God (save 1 chapter of spehss mareens and a few worlds that they conquered) because he preached atheism, which kills the chaos gods and calms the warp. It was only after the Eclessiarchy got heavily involved in the evolution of the dogma of the imperium that there was enough faith in the Emperor to start the formation of the star child.

Irrelevant, because even if the emperor was being empowered by faith (he isn't), the chaos gods are literally bursting with all the war, opression, intrigue, fanatism and stagnation created by the Eclessiarchy wich keeps them fed and happy. There's not actualy emprah worship. There's worship of diferent twisted ideals all over the imperium wich at best make the emprah cry at night when he hears of how his vision was corrupted to hell and back.

The emprah didn't preach atheism for nothing. He knows he can't defeat the chaos gods in their own game. But if he could crush all the mysticism and superstition in humankind, there was hope.

One could actualy say Chaos won the Horus Heresy. The emprah was put on the sidelines and the imperium became a massive machine of production of negative emotions that empowers them.

I murdered thousands for the Emperor and he gave me nothing except his damning silence. Now his lapdogs yap for every life I take, while the gods promise me the galaxy.

+++ Svane Vulfbad +++

Optimystik
2010-05-09, 04:56 PM
How do you know that there is not a collector who pays billions of gp for emperor parts? :smalltongue:

That's easy; he's not listed in the DMG.

Yukitsu
2010-05-09, 04:57 PM
Sure, however you can't at all say that he was the star God prior to the current condition. As well, most theories that even aknowledge the star god (imperial doctrine doesn't) views it as misguided worship augmenting and rebirthing the Emperors powers into a new vessel which will probably be one of his more powerful offspring. All of the theories which view the star god as anything other than heresy believe it would be related to the Emperor's psyche and not just some random chaos fluctuation.