Sword Damage(3.5)

[PersonMan]

Alright, after coming to the conclusion that it couldn't be used as a weapon, ignoring physics and applying MAGIC and PLOT, along with some TECHNOBABBLE, I have come up with a way that an 8-foot-long sword made of neutron star matter could be a useful weapon extremely overpowered.

Now, what sort of damage would this do? It's a two-handed, 8-foot-long weapon made out of incredibly dense material.

This should be enough to be absurd, but not enough to kill my level 21 victims PCs.

[arguskos]

All of it?

Ok, serious answer. A neutronium weapon could deal Xd12, where X is the BAB of the wielder. That'd be a scary pile of dice, depending on who's swinging.

[Temotei]

At 20 BAB, that's 130 damage on average. So...21 BAB would be 136.5.

Be afraid when the PCs get this after they beat the encounter. :smalltongue:

Or if they disarm and pick it up.

[arguskos]

At 20 BAB, that's 130 damage on average. So...21 BAB would be 136.5.
It's epic, who cares? That's not even that scary at epic. Given that a neutronium weapon should be an artifact, I don't see the issue.

[Temotei]

It's epic, who cares? That's not even that scary at epic. Given that a neutronium weapon should be an artifact, I don't see the issue.

I'm not arguing. Just showing the values. I rather like those averages. :smalltongue:

The scary part is when you add Power Attack.

[arguskos]

I'm not arguing. Just showing the values. I rather like those averages. :smalltongue:

The scary part is when you add Power Attack.
I like the Xd12 mechanic too. :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Make it a touch attack, too, and bypassing all DR. Damage alone doesn't really do much in Epic.

[Ashtagon]

RL physics answer: It will suck the target (and wielder) into its gravity vortex, then fall to the ground (lacking a wielder), and begin eating up the entire planet. It's neutron star matter, ffs.

RL physics answer 2: The same damage a regular great sword does. Simply being denser/heavier doesn't in itself do extra damage. Damage is a function of impact energy, which for melee weapons is a function of strength with a cap based on contact area.

Fun answer: xd12.

[Iamyourking]

Immortal's Handbook answer: 40,960d10. How's that sound?

[MoleMage]

I really like the idea of it doing BABd12 damage. And of course, it would ignore any DR Adamantine does, as well as Epic.

This should be just based on the sword, without so much as a +1 bonus, though for this particular case, such bonuses should be considered.

[Real Sorceror]

Iamyourking is spot on. Heres the link hes referring to, which also has rules for making a sword out of a black hole: http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff15.htm

Personally I'd make a sword out Strong Symmetric Material, but then I guess I'd get crushed and die. :smallconfused:

[Iamyourking]

Actually I was referring to the Neutronium Golem's slam attack. I figured that a slam attack from a large construct is about equivalent to a greatsword; it is actually 170 times smaller than that. The actual rules for a greatsword made of pure neutronium are
Cost: 11,796,000,050 gp
Damage: 240d10
Weight: 140,696,000,000 tons
Ignores the first 1500 points of hardness

[brujon]

Actually I was referring to the Neutronium Golem's slam attack. I figured that a slam attack from a large construct is about equivalent to a greatsword; it is actually 170 times smaller than that. The actual rules for a greatsword made of pure neutronium are
Cost: 11,796,000,050 gp
Damage: 240d10
Weight: 140,696,000,000 tons
Ignores the first 1500 points of hardness


I love the fact that if you drop that sword on someone, you'll do astronomically more damage than by swinging it.

Gotta love those weird materials.

[Amiel]

Each time the sword is swung, a miniaturised black hole is manifested; it automatically deals max hellball (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/hellball.htm) damage; save all damage dealt is force damage and thusly ignores DR, immunities, resistances and the like. Additionally, everyone is affected by a reverse reverse gravity spell; this gravity is so oppressive that everyone is immediately slowed and takes continual 10d6 points of force damage each round with no save. The negation vomited forth by the black hole saturates the entire area, everyone within must succeed on Fort DC saves or die.

[PersonMan]

Yes, it's an artifact. To even pick it up, you need to be favored by a god of war who created it so that people would kill eachother better. That it also the entire reason why it exists and/or hasn't/doesn't just destroy the world every moment it exists, or when it's swung.

...Interesting numbers. I think I'll avoid using it for now.

As for the 'damage isn't worth much in epic'...Well, my PCs aren't all that optimized, so to them damage does mean quite a bit. Especially when the number of dice rolled is greater than most of their individual HP totals.

[imp_fireball]

RL physics answer: It will suck the target (and wielder) into its gravity vortex, then fall to the ground (lacking a wielder), and begin eating up the entire planet. It's neutron star matter, ffs.

RL physics answer 2: The same damage a regular great sword does. Simply being denser/heavier doesn't in itself do extra damage. Damage is a function of impact energy, which for melee weapons is a function of strength with a cap based on contact area.

Fun answer: xd12.

Answer 2: Make a Str prerequisite to wield, and then add a higher Str multiplier per modifier, which includes the multiplier for wielding it off-handed. More weight with equal impact speed = greater force then equal speed with less weight.

If it's really dense, then make it cut through a portion of hardness (good for sundering). DR/adamantium on the other hand usually assumes (imo) that adamantine is a magical substance that has properties needed to bypass the DR - the inflexibility of this means you can't supply the logic that the DR is rooted in hardness.

[Ashtagon]

Answer 2: Make a Str prerequisite to wield, and then add a higher Str multiplier per modifier, which includes the multiplier for wielding it off-handed. More weight with equal impact speed = greater force then equal speed with less weight.

If it's really dense, then make it cut through a portion of hardness (good for sundering). DR/adamantium on the other hand usually assumes (imo) that adamantine is a magical substance that has properties needed to bypass the DR - the inflexibility of this means you can't supply the logic that the DR is rooted in hardness.

Not really. Imagine a bullet rather than a sword blade. Same basic rules apply. Once you have enough energy (whether through mass or through velocity), all that really matters is the amount of flesh and bone displaced. A 20 mm bullet that has sufficient energy to do entry and exit wounds will always do more damage than a 9 mm bullet that has sufficient energy to do entry and exit wounds, even if the 9 mm bullet is travelling a million times faster. The 20 mm bullet simply displaces more flesh and bone, regardless of the actual energy.

Similarly with blades. Once you reach enough energy to slive right through (this time through weapon mass), all that matters is how much flesh and bone got displaced.

None of which is relevant to the OP.

[imp_fireball]

Not really. Imagine a bullet rather than a sword blade. Same basic rules apply. Once you have enough energy (whether through mass or through velocity), all that really matters is the amount of flesh and bone displaced. A 20 mm bullet that has sufficient energy to do entry and exit wounds will always do more damage than a 9 mm bullet that has sufficient energy to do entry and exit wounds, even if the 9 mm bullet is travelling a million times faster. The 20 mm bullet simply displaces more flesh and bone, regardless of the actual energy.

Similarly with blades. Once you reach enough energy to slive right through (this time through weapon mass), all that matters is how much flesh and bone got displaced.

None of which is relevant to the OP.

If there's more weight then more bone is gonna get displaced when there's more force. Then again, if both swords chop off an arm, then both technically might displace the same amount of bone, but STR bonus to damage in D&D is pretty linear regardless.

Then again someone with 17 Str wielding a lighter sword can swing it faster then if they were wielding a heavier weapon. But if the sword slices the enemy, there's a point where it becomes akin to a paper cut rather then the actual weight of the weapon adding shock to the blow. A bigger sword could break bones with the shockwave of entering/exiting.

Also a bullet traveling a million times faster might have more stopping power (could it paralyze?), even if it doesn't do as much damage. What's a bit disconcerting though is the fact that a bullet the size of a molecule traveling at hyperspeed might not even be felt.

There's also the matter of friction. A bullet might burn up before it hits the target if its traveling too fast. Or its material might expand. Or any other number of factors.


I love the fact that if you drop that sword on someone, you'll do astronomically more damage than by swinging it.


Not really. Considering you need godly strength to even carry it, you'd probably do comparable damage anyway.

Imo a creature that's weighs a lot by itself should suffer less damage from falling objects and the like. The same for creatures that might exist on high gravity worlds.

Also, since different planes exist in D&D and the physics of different universes is plausible, different circumstances may be required for black holes to form. Also magic prevents black holes. :P

Restabilizing the universe would be an equally epic spell as the destroy the world spell.

[Fizban]

The thing about magic is that it can let you ignore silly things like gravity and inertia, so the fact that it's a super dense material doesn't mean much, nor does the fact that it would "black hole" the world, because the artifact level magic is stopping it from doing that.

Force, mass, and acceleration don't work as normal in DnD either. Even creatures so strong that they can lift objects that would kill you if dropped on your head can only deal so much damage. Best reason I can think of for this is that while they can apply a ridiculous amount of force, they aren't allowed to accelerate a mass past a certain point due to the laws of DnD-ness. The result is that while they can move a huge object slowly, they can't move a small object like a weapon as much faster as they should be able to, so they can't strike with full force (I'm ignoring the idea of "cutting" for damage, it's all just imparting force).

So, with an incredibly dense but small object, a character can make up for their abitrary acceleration limit by accelerating more mass, allowing their weapon to impart more force. So that's what the starmatter artifact sword does. The magic lets you swing as much weight as you can carry in the size of a two-handed weapon, and automatically adjusts the weight to compensate to changes.

How to model the mechanics of this? The improvised weapons table. Find out how much carrying capacity you have left after whatever other gear you're carrying. Subtract 200 lbs from that, and divide what's left by 200, then add 4 to that number. The sword deals that many d6's, and you you count as carrying your full load. Example: A medium character with strength 50 has a carrying capacity of 4,800 lbs Say he's carrying 400 lbs of gear. So: 4,800-400-200= 4,200, 4,200/200= 21, 21+4=25. The Neutron Starblade deals 25d6 damage as a two handed weapon.

Now wait till he downs a potion of Enlarge Person: the sword now deals 43d6.

If you want to model it having a proper blade, add an extra 2d6. Blades just increase the damage die size by a step or two and on the improvised table by this point that's 2d6. Or you could go from d6's to d8's to 2d6's and just double the whole thing. But that's just silly :smalltongue:

You could just use BABd12, but you can't have a weapon that cool without an overcomplicated mechanic I say.

[imp_fireball]

The thing about magic is that it can let you ignore silly things like gravity and inertia, so the fact that it's a super dense material doesn't mean much, nor does the fact that it would "black hole" the world, because the artifact level magic is stopping it from doing that.

Force, mass, and acceleration don't work as normal in DnD either. Even creatures so strong that they can lift objects that would kill you if dropped on your head can only deal so much damage. Best reason I can think of for this is that while they can apply a ridiculous amount of force, they aren't allowed to accelerate a mass past a certain point due to the laws of DnD-ness. The result is that while they can move a huge object slowly, they can't move a small object like a weapon as much faster as they should be able to, so they can't strike with full force (I'm ignoring the idea of "cutting" for damage, it's all just imparting force).

So, with an incredibly dense but small object, a character can make up for their abitrary acceleration limit by accelerating more mass, allowing their weapon to impart more force. So that's what the starmatter artifact sword does. The magic lets you swing as much weight as you can carry in the size of a two-handed weapon, and automatically adjusts the weight to compensate to changes.

How to model the mechanics of this? The improvised weapons table. Find out how much carrying capacity you have left after whatever other gear you're carrying. Subtract 200 lbs from that, and divide what's left by 200, then add 4 to that number. The sword deals that many d6's, and you you count as carrying your full load. Example: A medium character with strength 50 has a carrying capacity of 4,800 lbs Say he's carrying 400 lbs of gear. So: 4,800-400-200= 4,200, 4,200/200= 21, 21+4=25. The Neutron Starblade deals 25d6 damage as a two handed weapon.

Now wait till he downs a potion of Enlarge Person: the sword now deals 43d6.

If you want to model it having a proper blade, add an extra 2d6. Blades just increase the damage die size by a step or two and on the improvised table by this point that's 2d6. Or you could go from d6's to d8's to 2d6's and just double the whole thing. But that's just silly :smalltongue:

You could just use BABd12, but you can't have a weapon that cool without an overcomplicated mechanic I say.

Well your reasoning for D&D having different physics then actual physics is unjustified. Cutting force is just force sure, but the thing with a slashing or piercing weapon is that it can do damage, even with minor amounts of force applied (hence, it's a different damage type). Someone who exerts more force to lift a heavier object and then throwing it at an enemy is relying on the damage from the object to purely be the weight of the object itself. Then isn't much force that you can put towards increasing the speed of the object, since a lot of that is exerted in lifting it in the first place. In D&D terms, this is either a penalty to attack (less speed) or damage (less strength to accelerate the blow), but more damage die (more object weight).

Another way of looking at it is increasing the strength multiplier (weight compliments strength a little more) but penalizing attack, and then not applying strength to damage at all if you do not match or exceed the strength prerequisite to wield the weapon (too much effort is expended in hefting it; granted you are still penalized to damage if you have a negative strength penalty) - this comes into play even if your carrying capacity allows you to lift the weapon. The damage dice of the weapon is determined by the size of the weapon (more size equals larger wounds or more plausible bone displaced on a static level), hence a million pound medium sized great sword still does 1d12 slashing as opposed to an 8 pound one.
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The way you seem to want to treat the neutron star sword is sorta like a gravity hammer (sci fi and fantasy translucency ftw). The weight could be preserved in a demi-plane (alternate dimension), which reads how much strength you wish to apply to the weapon. Hence, anyone can lift it, but the stronger you are, the more momentum the weapon is able to translate with assistance from the demi-plane.

Your application could work - but maybe a person with a high enough BAB (or whatever you like) could command it to create a gravity vortex (not necessarily save or die black hole, but high damage, like a tornado effect as the psychokinetic 9th level tornado power), at will as a full action.

[vasharanpaladin]

Immortals Handbook has neutronium weapons dealing 64x the damage of the base weapon, requiring a base strenth of 270 to use at all. :smallwink:

[Iamyourking]

Well then, it's certainly a good thing I already mentioned that three days ago.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...I'd do the following, to make it interesting:


Neutron Star Blade
Exotic Weapon
+10 Vorpal Weapon
Overcomes all damage reduction and hardness
10d6 damage, 19-20/x3
The first time each round an opponent is struck with the Neutron Star Blade, he or she must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Attacker's Base Attack Bonus + Attacker's Epic Attack Bonus + Attacker's Strength modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. If he or she succeeds, he or she must succeed at an additional save at the same DC or fall prone.
When drawn, opponents cannot shift away from the wielder of the Neutron Star Blade (due to its immense density).
When drawn, all terrain within 15 feet of the wielder of the Neutron Star Blade is considered difficult terrain to everyone but the wielder.
As a full-round action, the wielder may slam the sword into the earth, creating an effect equivalent to the earthquake spell.
Each basic attack with the Neutron Star Blade can hit up to three adjacent targets, so long as all the targets are within the wielder's reach. The wielder makes a single attack roll against the AC of all three targets, and hits any that his attack roll is high enough to hit.
When the Vorpal property of the Neutron Star Blade triggers, the target creature is instead destroyed as if subject to a sphere of annihilation. This effects even creatures normally immune to critical hits.

And it's an artifact. Obviously.

[vasharanpaladin]

Well then, it's certainly a good thing I already mentioned that three days ago.

...So you did. Whoops. :smallredface:

[PersonMan]

Nice, Djinn.

I like the idea about gravity-based environmental abilities. I'm thinking that there will be 3 seals:
1: Allows you to unlock most of the sword's true weight: +150% damage
2: Allows you to use it's gravity, to an extent: various abilities
3: Allows you to use its full weight and gravity: Fort save DC X or everything in Y feet is sucked in, anything struck takes several hundred points of damage and is reduced to a few flecks on the sword due to its gravity.

Sound good?

[imp_fireball]

The thing with the neutron star blade is its sort of like a deity's avatar on the material plane - if it were to truly manifest, it would just eat the world in a microsecond (would make a good villain plot device though; unlock the artifacts true potential which is just a ticking bomb).



When drawn, opponents cannot shift away from the wielder of the Neutron Star Blade (due to its immense density).

Maybe if they fail on a Fort save (DC 50), which can be made each round? Spectacular failure (20 or more?) means they fall prone, or are helpless for the round (even if they can move), or can't move anywhere, etc. Good for ridiculously strong dudes.

Here's an idea:

Operation: Vacu-Suck (suck suck!):
The sword projects an aura out to a 60ft. radius - creatures within this radius are affected by wind currents of the heaviest degree (refer to SRD for wind weather affects), with the exception that instead of pushing creatures backwards, they are pushed inwards. Upon landing adjacent to the wielder, they must succeed on a reflex save, or fall on the wielder's blade and take its damage.

Alternate:
Telekinetic sphere affect, 60ft. radius. Creatures are pulled into a 5ft. space in front of the sword (adjacent to wielder or within wielder's reach) and must make a reflex save or fall on its blade and take the sword damage.

Alternate (again);
If creatures don't spend a standard action to stand their ground, they are pulled 1d6 spaces towards a location adjacent to the wielder (or to a space that the wielder wills within wielder's reach).



Each basic attack with the Neutron Star Blade can hit up to three adjacent targets, so long as all the targets are within the wielder's reach. The wielder makes a single attack roll against the AC of all three targets, and hits any that his attack roll is high enough to hit.

Should it stack with warmind's sweeping strikes?

[kstout6]

Alright, after coming to the conclusion that it couldn't be used as a weapon, ignoring physics and applying MAGIC and PLOT, along with some TECHNOBABBLE, I have come up with a way that an 8-foot-long sword made of neutron star matter could be a useful weapon extremely overpowered.

Now, what sort of damage would this do? It's a two-handed, 8-foot-long weapon made out of incredibly dense material.

This should be enough to be absurd, but not enough to kill my level 21 victims PCs.


I know that this is an old as moldy toast, but let me though in my two cents in this discussion. A greatsword made up of materials from a neutron star would be the single-most powerful and damaging weapon in the multiverse hands-down. It would have no magical components, but it would overcome ANY damage reduction, all armor, no matter the type. It could be natural, deflective armor, it could be force or magic, it could be godly, it would penetrate easier than a red-hot knife through very warm butter. The damage would be insane so much that there is no way to accurately count the damage on any scale, in fact, because of the density of the material, I would argue that the sword would do no actual damage, but cut things in two on demand, and I mean anything, even gods, ethereal creatures, anything. The reason being is that if we take a great sword with a neutron star material we would have to modify the damage according to the mass and density of the new material. The damage of a neutron star greatsword would be 6.92E15d6, that is to say that you would have to have use 692,000,000,000,000 d6s to do the damage, and since d20 cannot support that type of damage, if such a weapon would exist, the damage would say --special-see below. The damage would be uncountable, because nothing in d20, let alone Dungeons and Dragons, could ever have the hit points to survive a hit from it. Therefore it would do no damage, it would simply cut anything in half. But, also it would be useless as a weapon because of a few things. First, let's talk about the elephant in the room. There is no one in d20, let alone in Dungeons and Dragons that could even lift the sword. The sword would have a mass greater than entire continents. Not even the gods could wield it. 3rd, because of the mass and density of the sword, it would have its own gravitational pull, in fact, such a weapon would be cataclysmic because it would pull all objects from outer space towards that object, including the moon. Third, the sword will want to merge with the earth's core, or maybe the earth wants to merge with the sword, so the gravities of both objects would attract each other so that the sword would join at the core. 4th, if one were to ever swing the sword, the gravitational effects would destroy continents (not just one continent, but all that the swords effects in a straight line for hundreds of thousands of kilometers, even reaching space) It is even powerful enough to cut atoms, since the sword is denser than any element. And the last thing is that because of the gravity of the material used, it is impossible to craft it into a sword because the gravity would constantly push against itself into a spheric shape. It would weigh about 1.54E14 kg, or about 3.338E11 tons or about 31,820,000,000 tons.

Thus, such a weapon should not exist. If anyone was in possession of such a weapon, they would be a world-breaker. They could destroy an entire planet in a relatively short time given the chance. Gods would fear a person that would wield such a sword because it would be power greater than their own.