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Private-Prinny
2010-05-09, 09:54 PM
One of my fellow PCs has decided to pick up his first casting class, and settled on a Dread Necromancer. What are some tips to play a good one?

No multiclassing, no prestige classes, no Spellstitched Corpsecrafted Necropolitan, nothing except the tricks that a standard Dread Necromancer has at his disposal. How do you make the best use of them?

Forever Curious
2010-05-09, 09:56 PM
One of my fellow PCs has decided to pick up his first casting class, and settled on a Dread Necromancer. What are some tips to play a good one?

No multiclassing, no prestige classes, no Spellstitched Corpsecrafted Necropolitan, nothing except the tricks that a standard Dread Necromancer has at his disposal. How do you make the best use of them?

Take the Tomb-touched Tainted Soul feat from Libris Mortis: infinite self healing (feat allows for healing with negative energy, Charnal Touch is negative energy...yeah).

arguskos
2010-05-09, 09:57 PM
Take Tomb-Tainted Soul (feat from Libris Mortis), profit?

If he is barred from Libris Mortis... he's got issues, honestly. The Dread Necromancer is a great and decently self-sufficient base class, but after about level 8, it doesn't get too much.

Also, uh, why no multiclassing at all? Just too complex, or not permitted?

Runestar
2010-05-09, 10:00 PM
Try this.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook

Even has a level-by-level breakdown of how to play it at every stage. :smallsmile:

Private-Prinny
2010-05-09, 10:03 PM
Take Tomb-Tainted Soul (feat from Libris Mortis), profit?

If he is barred from Libris Mortis... he's got issues, honestly. The Dread Necromancer is a great and decently self-sufficient base class, but after about level 8, it doesn't get too much.

Also, uh, why no multiclassing at all? Just too complex, or not permitted?

Libris Mortis should be easy to get into the game.

The "no multiclassing" thing is because a) he wants to keep it as simple as possible, since he's used to playing the party beatstick, and b) he really wants that capstone.

Forever Curious
2010-05-09, 10:04 PM
Libris Mortis should be easy to get into the game.

The "no multiclassing" thing is because a) he wants to keep it as simple as possible, since he's used to playing the party beatstick, and b) he really wants that capstone.

I also suggest Undead Leadership (if allowed) and maybe the Mother Cyst line of feats.

arguskos
2010-05-09, 10:06 PM
Libris Mortis should be easy to get into the game.

The "no multiclassing" thing is because a) he wants to keep it as simple as possible, since he's used to playing the party beatstick, and b) he really wants that capstone.
Unless you're actually known for playing to 20, it'll probably hurt him in the long run, but ok, fair enough.

Libris Mortis is ABSOLUTELY VITAL for a DNecro, period. Tomb-Tainted Soul, Corpsecraft (and derivatives), etc, all great stuff.

My personal suggestion? I would go Dread Necromancer/Fighter/Eldritch Knight. Why? Well, it isn't optimal, but it IS damned amusing, since Dread Necromancers have some decent melee abilities, and when you start to spam Animate Dead with Destructive Retribution and get them into the fight alongside you, you can do some hilarious stuff. Now, given he is usually the beatstick, that's probably unlikely, but still, it's pretty fun.

As for a straight DNecro, well, uh, take Corpsecrafter and the rest of those feats, along with TTS at level 1, and use your spells wisely.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-09, 10:10 PM
Unless you're actually known for playing to 20, it'll probably hurt him in the long run, but ok, fair enough.

Libris Mortis is ABSOLUTELY VITAL for a DNecro, period. Tomb-Tainted Soul, Corpsecraft (and derivatives), etc, all great stuff.

My group is known for playing from 1 to epic pretty quickly, and everything gets shot to hell anyway at epic, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Libris Mortis = Amazing. Got it. Any particular spells he should be getting with his Advanced Learning?

arguskos
2010-05-09, 10:14 PM
My group is known for playing from 1 to epic pretty quickly, and everything gets shot to hell anyway at epic, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Libris Mortis = Amazing. Got it. Any particular spells he should be getting with his Advanced Learning?
What do you have available, and what role is he filling?

If gishing, Shivering Touch is a good call. If support, Necrotic Skull Bomb at higher levels is amazing (and should be taken if available anyways).

Private-Prinny
2010-05-09, 10:22 PM
What do you have available, and what role is he filling?

If gishing, Shivering Touch is a good call. If support, Necrotic Skull Bomb at higher levels is amazing (and should be taken if available anyways).

Pretty much any source is fair game as long as it's official 3.5 material.

He will probably be support, dealing damage when possible, and providing undead hordes as melee backup. With the Spectral Hand spell, Shivering Touch seems like a good choice even for non-gishes.

Thurbane
2010-05-09, 10:26 PM
He might want to look into some Eternal Wands to get some utility spells that aren't on his list, and won't require UMD. Mirror Image is a great defensive spell for any caster, for example. Benign Transposition is another good one.

Also in the MIC, the Raiment of the Four will give him (limited) access to spells he won't otherwise get. Belt of the Wide Earth is especially nice (Teleport 2/day, powered by your own spell slots).

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-09, 10:27 PM
Note: Animate dead can, at level 11, get: Necrosis Carnex (MM4, p 104). Takes 3 corpses and 200gp, but ends up with an undead with 40 foot movement, a negative energy touch attack, and a necrotic burst on death.

Add on Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bones, and Destruction Retribution? You've got an undead with a 50 foot move, a debuff aura (-2 untyped to attack and saves to living creatures within 30 feet), decent HP (34, 4HD), and 4d6+2 negative energy on death within 10 feet, and 1d6+2 negative energy from 15-30 feet. The 3d6 within 10 feet gets a reflex for half, but the 1d6+2 is no save. Add on that it has a +7 to initiative, and it's a good support troop with a touch attack for 1d6+2 negative energy at will.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-09, 10:30 PM
Note: Animate dead can, at level 11, get: Necrosis Carnex (MM4, p 104). Takes 3 corpses and 200gp, but ends up with an undead with 40 foot movement, a negative energy touch attack, and a necrotic burst on death.

Add on Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bones, and Destruction Retribution? You've got an undead with a 50 foot move, a debuff aura (-2 untyped to attack and saves to living creatures within 30 feet), decent HP (34, 4HD), and 4d6+2 negative energy on death within 10 feet, and 1d6+2 negative energy from 15-30 feet. The 3d6 within 10 feet gets a reflex for half, but the 1d6+2 is no save. Add on that it has a +7 to initiative, and it's a good support troop with a touch attack for 1d6+2 negative energy at will.

I like this, especially since he's being brought in at level 12.

pinwiz
2010-05-09, 10:30 PM
I'm playing one of these right now. Very fun class, esspecially with a maxed bluff. Being in a city almost exclusively, this is very handy (and fun).

Does anyone know a good way to get teleport and greater teleport as spells for these guys though? I've got a concept in mind that came after 8 levels of play, so... yeah. I'm level 9 now.

Akal Saris
2010-05-09, 10:31 PM
Have the player check with the DM if he can stack his damaging touch attack with a touch spell, to add a little more damage to each effect. Touch spells kind of suck already, so it would basically make them a little more feasible.

If he has the Wis for it, Arcane Disciple could open up some more spells for him to cast spontaneously. Dark Speech is also a lot of fun if you have the stats for it.

You can also make a solid intimidate and fear effect focused dread necro quite easily. Use fearsome armor to demoralize as a move action (with never outnumbered to make it all within 10ft), cast a spell that makes opponents shaken or worse as a standard action (cause fear is best for under 6HD since it's auto-shakened, doom is alright, scare is mostly useless, then fear is the bee's knees), then activate your 5th level fear aura.

Add in Dreadful Wrath to automatically trigger another shaken aura every attack or spell, Imperious Command to make demoralize force opponents to Cower, and Dread Witch after level 8 to cause fear even in opponents normally immune to fear effects.

With Elder Evils and devoting yourself to one of them, it gets even crazier with all the intimidate bonuses from Willing Deformity feats, plus another fear aura from obscene deformity or whatever it is.

Just my personal favorite way to make a dread necro =)

Thurbane
2010-05-09, 10:32 PM
If it's not considered too cheesey, he could also pick up the Apprentice (Spellcaster) feat (DMG II) to get UMD onto his list of class skills - handy for any CHA based character.

arguskos
2010-05-09, 10:33 PM
Pretty much any source is fair game as long as it's official 3.5 material.

He will probably be support, dealing damage when possible, and providing undead hordes as melee backup. With the Spectral Hand spell, Shivering Touch seems like a good choice even for non-gishes.
Not as much as you might think. They have better fear and negative energy effects.

Here's a decent list of stuff I like as a DNecro, at each level, to picked and chosen amongst as you wish. None of it is super optimized, but it's all decently amusing stuff. Almost entirely SpC
Gish List:
-Backbiter
-Death Armor
-Mind Poison/Spider Poison
-Doom Scarabs (PHB2)
-Night's Caress
-Fleshshiver/Spectral Touch
-Sword of Darkness
-Greater Bestow Curse
-Can't think of anything at level 9

Support List:
-Spirit Worm
-Curse of Impending Blades (I like it dammit)
-Mass Curse of Impending Blades/Undead Torch
-Burning Blood
-NECROTIC SPELL BOMB OMG (Champions of Ruin)
-Ray of Entropy
-Avasculate
-Avascular Mass
-Still can't think of much, sorry.

These are just fun suggestions of spells I've always enjoyed.

EDIT: Yeah, an intimidate build is good as well, since DNecros get some good fear spells and abilities.

Noedig
2010-05-09, 10:40 PM
If he intends to be animating lots and lots of minions, I strongly suggest Unliving Weapon

Skinny

School: Necromancy
Cleric 3

Undead subject explodes for 1d6 damage/2 levels when struck or at a specific time.

Details
Descriptor : Evil
Required Components : Verbal, Somatic, Material (pinch of bile and sulfur)
Effect Type : Targets
Effect : One undead creature
Range : Touch
Duration : 1 hour/level
Cast Time : 1 round
Saving Throw : Will negates
Resistance : Yes


I like this because the negative damage has no save, and its like Dragon Age Origins Walking Bomb spell. The save applies to the undead you cast it on, and if they are mindless AND under your control, they dont really need to make a save. As long as you can cast it you can have unliving weapons. Make a wand for lots of fun.

JaronK
2010-05-10, 12:15 AM
This should help: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2242.0

The best Advanced Learning Spells for the first use of the ability are Ghoul Glyph and Kelgor's Grave Mist. Which you take is up to you, but those are the only ones worth considering (everything else either does something you already can do or is really lame).

It's a much harder decision after that... Consumptive Field, Shivering Touch, Awaken Undead, Animate Dread Warrior, Avasculate, Haunt Shift, Black Sand... there's just so many good options.

As for feats, Tomb Tainted Soul is perfect if you're not going to be a Necropolitan. The Corpse Crafter line is fun if the DM allows you to actually have minions (I've found many DMs get annoyed at you for having minions, which can be really lame). Imperious Command is pure gold.

JaronK

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 12:33 AM
I like this, especially since he's being brought in at level 12.

They work really well when scattered throughout the ranks of undead. They can touch heal damaged undead (while debuffing saves), and they provide heal/hurt effects when they die.

Also, if you're going Imperious Command for the demoralizing, there's an armor enhancement in the same book (Drow of the Underdark) that allows you to demoralize as a move action. This allows you to demoralize and still cast a spell. (two, if you have rapid metamagic)

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-05-10, 01:55 AM
I didn't read all the posts so far, so if I'm repeating I'm sorry, but I fell in love with Dread Necromancer a while back and keep playing them:smallbiggrin: And, believe it or not, I think the most useful thing that I've learned thus far (though I should state that I don't really optimize and I like to make things solely for flavor) is to take a Greataxe as your one marshal weapon. It's saved me and maybe my party at least twice so far in a game that's only had 2 battles. Also, the feat Profane Lifeleech (And extra turning for levels when you can't think of anything great) is an awesome use for your Rebuke attempts if you don't actually like to attempt turning checks, IMHO.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-10, 04:06 AM
Get the Ghostly Visage from Fiend Folio for a familiar, it should always be possessing him so it can never be attacked and he'll get immunity to mind-affecting effects. It can manifest over his face to force opponents to make a Fort Will save or be Paralyzed, and it can spend its actions every round focusing the gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) on someone to force them to save again or be paralyzed.

Take the feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, which allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. This alone can give you knowledge of and early access to the next level of spells, though some may disagree so it's ultimately up to your DM. If you cannot learn the next level of spells until you demonstrate the ability to cast them (which you don't fulfill by gaining levels anyway so it's a double-standard) take the feat Mother Cyst from Libris Mortis. Versatile Spellcaster will allow you to cast a Cyst spell of a higher level than your highest level spell slots, and you'll therefore learn all the spells on your class list of that level since you unarguably have access to that level of spells and be able to cast any of those as well. This will also allow you to learn slightly higher level spells via Advanced Learning.

Fear effects are great to have. A Shaken opponent takes a -2 to attacks and saves, including saving throws against additional fear effects or your familiar's paralyzing gaze. Multiple instances of the same fear condition result in a higher condition, so if you make someone Shaken twice they become Frightened and must attempt to flee. The Intimidate skill is a good start, especially if you get the Never Outnumbered skill trick in Complete Scoundrel. Keep in mind that your familiar can also use that skill at the same ranks as you have, and since Never Outnumbered affects your Intimidate skill your familiar should be able to use it as well. Consider taking the feat Imperious Command (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2) from Drow of the Underdark, which makes Intimidate far more useful in combat. You should also take the feat Dreadful Wrath (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dreadful_Wrath) if it's available, so an already shaken opponent would cower for a round and then be Frightened the following round and attempt to flee, thus wasting two rounds worth of actions and maybe a third to get back into the fight. You can even take Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus) for Imperious Command so it's harder to resist. You can also get Skill Focus: Intimidate by visiting the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel, or if starting higher than 1st level you can pay 3,000 gp and include the visit in your character's backstory to get it.

Undead creation is very important for a Dread Necromancer. You can make a skeletal horse to ride on, or a zombie dire bat to fly on. Skeletons of Cave Trolls (MM3) are amazing, especially if you cast Awaken Undead on them so they regain all their special attacks and qualities, including Fast Healing. Animate Dread Warrior, a 6th level spell in Unapproachable East, creates an undead humanoid who retains all their previous class levels, feats, skills, etc. and there's no limit to how many you can make or have under your control. Summon Undead is also useful for getting meat shields or additional attackers, some of the better ones to get are Zombie Bugbears and Ogres, and Skeleton Owlbears and Trolls. In the higher levels you'll probably be best off to summon multiples of those instead of the physically weaker higher level options.

Corpsecrafter would be a good choice but the Undead Mastery class feature makes its bonuses redundant. See if your DM will let you use Undead Mastery to qualify for feats which require Corpsecrafter without having to actually take Corpsecrafter. Hardened Flesh, Nimble Bones, and Bolster Resistance are probably the best ones, but Destruction Retribution could also be useful if you make high HD zombies. Also be sure to create your undead minions within the area of a Desecrate spell with an altar to an evil deity present so they get additional bonuses. All of these things can also be applied to your own character upon gaining the Lich template.

I'd probably start out Human with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), probably Murky-Eyed and Vulnerable. Start out with Tomb-Tainted Soul, Dreadful Wrath, Versatile Spellcaster, and Mother Cyst at level 1. Get Thick-Skinned from Savage Species at level 3 to increase your Lich Body DR by two points. Your 6th level feat should be Imperious Command, and be sure to get Never Outnumbered and try to visit the Otyugh Hole. After that I'd probably focus on the Corpsecrafter line of feats, starting with Nimble Bones. Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon would also be a good choice, since so many opponents will be trying to run away.

Start a fight by summoning some undead minions and having your familiar turn on the gaze attack, then cast an offensive spell to turn on Dreadful Wrath. Try to get a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) to open with a low level offensive spell as a swift action and still get to summon something. Remember that your undead minions will all be immune to your familiar's gaze, but your other party members won't. After that maybe use Intimidate checks to demoralize some already shaken foes to take them out of the fight for a few rounds, hopefully they'll run by your summoned minions or other party members and get killed by AoOs. For your created and rebuked/commanded minions I'd go with a few very powerful creatures, rather than a lot of smaller ones. An Arrow Demon (MM3) Skeleton with Awaken Undead makes one of the most amazing archers in the game, a Cave Troll or Annis Hag Skeleton makes a good combatant even without Awaken Undead, and a Dire Bat or Dire Eagle (RoS) Zombie makes a decent flying mount.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 04:54 AM
Get the Ghostly Visage from Fiend Folio for a familiar, it should always be possessing him so it can never be attacked and he'll get immunity to mind-affecting effects. It can manifest over his face to force opponents to make a Fort Will save or be Paralyzed, and it can spend its actions every round focusing the gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) on someone to force them to save again or be paralyzed.It's not technically a familiar, and cannot be one, if I'm reading it right. It also retains control over its visage and its gaze. It's a symbiont, not a familiar.


Summon Undead is also useful for getting meat shields or additional attackers, some of the better ones to get are Zombie Bugbears and Ogres, and Skeleton Owlbears and Trolls. In the higher levels you'll probably be best off to summon multiples of those instead of the physically weaker higher level options.Trolls are not a stellar undead choice, as they lose their Regeneration. By RAW, no creature without a con score can possess Regeneration.

JellyPooga
2010-05-10, 04:54 AM
Awakened Harsaaf (MM III) skeletons make excellent bodyguards...6 HD, Str and Dex 20 or more (including bonuses for Undead Mastery etc.), Fast Healing, SR, immunity to fire (and cold, of course) and a burrow speed (for what it's worth). Best of all though, they're medium sized and humanoid looking (2 arms, 2 legs, etc.) which means that with suitably concealing clothing you can take them into town and none of the undead-fearing peasantry and holy-folk will bat an eyelid. To the best of my knowledge, they're about the best human-shaped skeletons you can geta decent number of (there are some outsiders that are human shaped and have higher HD, but you can get a lot of Harsaaf and they pack a decent punch for their HD).

JaronK
2010-05-10, 05:09 AM
It's not technically a familiar, and cannot be one, if I'm reading it right. It also retains control over its visage and its gaze. It's a symbiont, not a familiar.

Dread Necromancers specifically can get Ghostly Visages as familiars. It's a special thing for them. Their familiars are FAR better than the normal list. So yeah, you get a Ghostly Visage and it gazes for you all you want!


Trolls are not a stellar undead choice, as they lose their Regeneration. By RAW, no creature without a con score can possess Regeneration.

Trolls still have pretty darn good stats, but of course in the end Hydras are probably the best. Also dragons, since they have special rules.

JaronK

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-10, 06:09 AM
Trolls are not a stellar undead choice, as they lose their Regeneration. By RAW, no creature without a con score can possess Regeneration.

I said to use Troll Skeletons or Owlbear Zombies when casting Summon Undead, because that's what your options are limited to. I'd said to make a Cave Troll Skeleton and use Awaken Undead because it would regain its Fast Healing. I'm well aware of the lack of a Con score causing the loss of Regeneration, and did not imply otherwise.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 06:30 AM
Dread Necromancers specifically can get Ghostly Visages as familiars. It's a special thing for them. Their familiars are FAR better than the normal list. So yeah, you get a Ghostly Visage and it gazes for you all you want!Color me corrected.

I said to use Troll Skeletons or Owlbear Zombies when casting Summon Undead, because that's what your options are limited to. I'd said to make a Cave Troll Skeleton and use Awaken Undead because it would regain its Fast Healing. I'm well aware of the lack of a Con score causing the loss of Regeneration, and did not imply otherwise.
I did not state you implied otherwise. I just stated the view that Trolls are not stellar undead choices, as they lose their most defining positive racial feature. I was not trying to imply that you were unaware of this, but I did want to clarify for first time Dread Necro players, such as the OP's friend.

Optimystik
2010-05-10, 07:14 AM
Dread Necromancers specifically can get Ghostly Visages as familiars. It's a special thing for them. Their familiars are FAR better than the normal list. So yeah, you get a Ghostly Visage and it gazes for you all you want!

It can also latch onto your face, acting as a level 7 Mind Blank.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 07:21 AM
It can also latch onto your face, acting as a level 7 Mind Blank.

Soon as it enters your body, it gets that.

Gnaeus
2010-05-10, 08:08 AM
I've been playing a Dread Necro for a little over a year now, and I wanted to give my personal observations on some of these suggestions:


And, believe it or not, I think the most useful thing that I've learned thus far (though I should state that I don't really optimize and I like to make things solely for flavor) is to take a Greataxe as your one marshal weapon.

Strongly Disagree. There are 2 good choices for your martial. A ranged weapon like a longbow, or a reach weapon like a glaive or guisarme. A melee weapon is bad because you have weak BaB and probably poor strength, so in melee you will usually want to use touch attacks, of which you have many. The reach weapon will give you lots more AOOs, and if a guisarme you can trip with it, which is occasionally useful. Also, you can only intimidate an opponent you threaten, and a 10 foot threatening range is helpful. The bow will help you in a lot of ranged fights until you get Spectral Touch.


He might want to look into some Eternal Wands to get some utility spells that aren't on his list, and won't require UMD. Mirror Image is a great defensive spell for any caster, for example. Benign Transposition is another good one.

Also in the MIC, the Raiment of the Four will give him (limited) access to spells he won't otherwise get. Belt of the Wide Earth is especially nice (Teleport 2/day, powered by your own spell slots).

I agree, with a qualification. As a Dread Necro, your worst enemies are Constructs, followed by any undead that you can't rebuke, things with high SR, things with high saves, and fear immunes. Focus your eternal wand/other magic item/Arcane Disciple acquisitions on things that will help you in these fights. Spells that are SR:no, hurt non-living creatures, or buffs for allies are all your friends. Eternal wands like haste and true cast help a lot. It is sad to watch a tier 3 sitting on his hands because he can't hurt his enemy.


Get the Ghostly Visage from Fiend Folio for a familiar,

This is good advice, but you should also consider the humble imp. It might not be quite as powerful, but it has a ton of utility, including...
Detect Magic at will has saved us from deadly traps. (A ghostly visage might have protected ME from the Symbol of Insanity last week, but the Imp saved the entire party by detecting it).
1/week free commune has saved our party more than once
If you take UMD cross class the imp is a useful backup caster if equipped with a bag of cheap level 1-2 wands. (Also a great emergency healer if given a healing belt.)
Imp in Giant Spider form makes a handy mount for small Necros.
Giant spiders can tag enemies with thrown webbing, a handy debuff for high SR or nonliving foes.
Imps are better than Visages about helping party members navigate terrain. (they can fly to the other side and tie/untie ropes, use spider silk, etc.)
Spider venom and stinger poison are 2 potentially milkable poison sources if you have allies who use poisons.

Take the familiar that is best for you.

Arakune
2010-05-10, 08:15 AM
Try Dread Necro 18/Palemaster 2

Lose 1CL (and dealy 9th level spells, unfortunately) and gain free animate dead since it starts to get expensive after a while.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 08:17 AM
Try Dread Necro 18/Palemaster 2

Lose 1CL (and dealy 9th level spells, unfortunately) and gain free animate dead since it starts to get expensive after a while.

... and you lose the only reason one goes Dread Necromancer after level 8. Lichdom.

Arakune
2010-05-10, 08:19 AM
... and you lose the only reason one goes Dread Necromancer after level 8. Lichdom.

Oh right, self-corpsecrafting/desacrated Lichs are cool. The original build was Dread Necro 8/ Palamaster 10/Something 2 for a cheap and dirty horde of undead for free.

Greenish
2010-05-10, 08:22 AM
Strongly Disagree. There are 2 good choices for your martial. A ranged weapon like a longbow, or a reach weapon like a glaive or guisarme. A melee weapon is bad because you have weak BaB and probably poor strength, so in melee you will usually want to use touch attacks, of which you have many. The reach weapon will give you lots more AOOs, and if a guisarme you can trip with it, which is occasionally useful. Also, you can only intimidate an opponent you threaten, and a 10 foot threatening range is helpful. The bow will help you in a lot of ranged fights until you get Spectral Touch.Well, I'm somewhat partial for Scythe. No reach unfortunately, but tripping attacks and quadruple crit modifier for coups de grāce. Oh, and it should double as a masterwork item for Intimidate. :smallwink:

Gnaeus
2010-05-10, 08:25 AM
Well, I'm somewhat partial for Scythe. No reach unfortunately, but tripping attacks and quadruple crit modifier for coups de grāce. Oh, and it should double as a masterwork item for Intimidate. :smallwink:

You don't need a proficiency to coup de grace someone with a scythe. The -4 to hit doesn't slow you down much at that point.

Greenish
2010-05-10, 08:46 AM
You don't need a proficiency to coup de grace someone with a scythe. The -4 to hit doesn't slow you down much at that point.True enough. I'll amend that it's not among the best options, but damn if it ain't cool.

Person_Man
2010-05-10, 09:17 AM
In know you said no PrC, but if his goal is the capstone (transform into an Undead), he can get a superior version of it with the Walker in the Waste PrC (Sandstorm) at ECL 16.

druid91
2010-05-10, 09:23 AM
In know you said no PrC, but if his goal is the capstone (transform into a Lich), he can get a superior version of it with the Walker in the Waste PrC (Sandstorm) at ECL 16.

Yeah, multiple phylacteries and the ability to make a desert wherever you go. that and the ability to give people a supernatural disease.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-10, 09:33 AM
Damn this thread:smalltongue: you made me want to build a dread necro.... and I must admit I am intrigued by the Dread Necro Eldritch Knight combo.... is there a way for Dread necros to enter abjurant champion XD

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 09:55 AM
Yeah, multiple phylacteries and the ability to make a desert wherever you go. that and the ability to give people a supernatural disease.

Down side to that is that it's a divine PrC, and it loses 2 caster progression.

Optimystik
2010-05-10, 10:41 AM
Down side to that is that it's a divine PrC, and it loses 2 caster progression.

Also, the whole "Wicked Witch of the West" Weaksauce Weakness thing.

Alliteration ftw

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-10, 10:52 AM
Damn this thread:smalltongue: you made me want to build a dread necro.... and I must admit I am intrigued by the Dread Necro Eldritch Knight combo.... is there a way for Dread necros to enter abjurant champion XD

Arcane Disciple. For most use, I think the retribution domain grants you Shield of Faith. Been thinking about a similar build myself, wondering how to get that going. It could be one hell of an interesting gish. You take the frontline with a horde of weak undead minions as long as you have that retributive destruction feat that causes them to explode as they die and you have a constant source of healing as you hack through your opponents (assuming you're necropolitan/etc.). Could be fun. Might be interesting to utilize it with Spellsword and start channeling touch spells.

EDIT: COuld you theoretically combine a dread necro with a RKV? Bah, I think RKV is a divine-only...dagnabbit.

Person_Man
2010-05-10, 11:09 AM
Down side to that is that it's a divine PrC, and it loses 2 caster progression.

Whatever 5/Ur Priest 2/Walker of the Waste 10/Whatever 3. 9th level divine spells, Dry Lich template, 8 levels to play around with.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-10, 11:11 AM
Whatever 5/Ur Priest 2/Walker of the Waste 10/Whatever 3. 9th level divine spells, Dry Lich template, 8 levels to play around with.

If Ur-priest is your basis, then you've got a remarkably flexible DM.

deuxhero
2010-05-10, 11:14 AM
is there a way for Dread necros to enter abjurant champion XD

Don't they get dispel? PHBII has a warmage ACF that replaces a feature DN also has and can give you any spell added to your list.