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Reynard
2010-05-10, 08:51 AM
Does the swordsages Wisdom to AC class feature stack with the monks?

The swordsage version of the class feature doesn't say it doesn't stack with the monk's, while the Ninja specifically says that its version doesn't stack with the monk's.

Is this a case of "If they didn't say no, that means yes'?

gallagher
2010-05-10, 08:57 AM
unfortunately for you, it doesnt get to work that way. it may not be RAW, but it is RAI.

and even if people start arguing that you can, just like the paladin x3 CHA to your saves combo, it is incredibly cheesey. watch out for the DM throwing books at you (unless you are immune to bludgeoning damage, in which case, how did you do that?) and spells that dont give you a save

Greenish
2010-05-10, 09:00 AM
Unless you're using unarmed variant of swordsage, their wis to AC only works in light armour, and monk's only works with no armour, so they can't stack by RAW. :smallamused:

Reynard
2010-05-10, 09:04 AM
Aww. My Wis of 20 is slightly less useful than I thought it was, and I'll have to buy some light armour with my 4d4x10 gp.

EDIT: Yeah. Actually, does Monk even get the AC bonus as written? Neither Text nor Table actually say what level the monk gets that feature.

Emmerask
2010-05-10, 09:04 AM
By Raw Swordsage AC bonus if you wear light armor
Monk AC bonus if you wear no armor...

They can´t stack because you can´t fulfill both requirements at once :smallwink:

RAI/RAP depends on how your dm so we can´t tell :smallsmile:
And if the adaption bonus stacks (unarmed variant) is up to the dm also :smallwink:

/will get ninjad anyway so... ^^

Tokiko Mima
2010-05-10, 09:07 AM
Unless you're using unarmed variant of swordsage, their wis to AC only works in light armour, and monk's only works with no armour, so they can't stack by RAW. :smallamused:

Actually, per RAW even if you are using the unarmed swordsage variant, you still get your WIS to AC bonus in light armor only. The variant only removes light armor proficiency in exchange for Unarmed Strike as a monk. I agree that it doesn't make sense that you're getting a bonus in an armor type you are not proficient in, but it just means you have to work it out with the DM when it comes into play.

Greenish
2010-05-10, 09:07 AM
I should think most DMs agree that the swordsage wis to ac also works when not wearing armour.

Also, ^Swordsage'd.

Reynard
2010-05-10, 09:17 AM
ADAPTIVE STYLE
With just a short period of meditation, you can change your maneuvers and tactics to meet the threat you currently face.
Prerequisite: Crusader, swordsage, or warblade level 1st.
Benefit: You can change your readied maneuvers at anytime by taking a full-round action. If you’re a crusader, your current granted maneuvers are lost and you gain new granted maneuvers as if you had just readied your maneuvers for the day.
Normal: You can change maneuvers only by spending 5 minutes to do so.

About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.

Arakune
2010-05-10, 09:21 AM
About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.

You can change all your readied manuveus it doesn't say "non-used readied", just readied (used or not irrelevant). Well, that's what people normaly let it do.

Greenish
2010-05-10, 09:21 AM
About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.You can change expended maneuvers into a readied ones. It doesn't say you can't end up with the same ones you started with.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-10, 09:25 AM
About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.

When you ready your maneuvers, they're automatically available for use.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-10, 09:30 AM
About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.

I believe that there is a rule that says that when you change your manoubers they are readied for future use, thus if you select new manoubers in combat you readied all of them or something like that.

I might be wrong since I am away from books so....

Edit: Ninja'edswordsage'd

Godskook
2010-05-10, 09:51 AM
Wow, nobody mentioned the other reason why the abilities don't stack. Bonuses from the same source don't stack, and same name equals same source. In this case, the 'name' is "AC Bonus".

With the Paladin of LE 2/Blackguard 2/Hexblade 2, you're explicitly getting 3 different named abilities, so despite doing the same thing(most of the time, in hexblades case), they do stack.

Pluto
2010-05-10, 10:16 AM
About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.
There are two interpretations:

1. You trade your whole maneuver set for new suite of readied maneuvers, because the feat never says you can't. (And because otherwise, a Swordsage just doesn't have a practical way to refresh maneuvers when they run out.)

2. You only change the maneuvers that you have readied (not counting those you've expended), because that's all the feat says it does. (And the Swordsage has to live the maneuvers it has prepared from the start.)

It's not something that's ruled consistently between groups.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-10, 10:18 AM
Expended maneuvers are still readied. Just unavailable.

Reynard
2010-05-10, 10:50 AM
So, lets say:

Level 4 Swordsage.
10 Maneuvers Known.
4 Maneuvers Readied.

Readied:
ManeuverA
ManeuverB
ManeuverC
ManeuverD

Not Readied:
ManeuverE
ManeuverF
ManeuverG
ManeuverH
ManeuverI

So, after a few rounds, all readied maneuvers are used up. So you use Adaptive Style to change it to this:

Readied:
ManeuverE
ManeuverF
ManeuverG
ManeuverH

Not Readied:
ManeuverA (Expended)
ManeuverB (Expended)
ManeuverC (Expended)
ManeuverD (Expended)
ManeuverI

Would the ones that had been switched out be unuseable (without using the swordsage recovery method) until the next encounter, or would they be refreshed, letting you swap them back and use them again?

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-10, 10:55 AM
About this feat. Why have I seen people saying that it allows a Swordsage to refresh all of their maneuvers for the encounter in a single round? All it does is let them change which ones they have readied.

Last time I asked this question, I was informed "Because errata says so"

Boci
2010-05-10, 11:11 AM
Last time I asked this question, I was informed "Because errata says so"

It also says this feat allows you to do what would normally take 5 minutes as a full round action, so unless your arguing that the 5 minute version doesn't refresh your maneuvers either...

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-10, 11:12 AM
So, lets say:

...

Would the ones that had been switched out be unuseable (without using the swordsage recovery method) until the next encounter, or would they be refreshed, letting you swap them back and use them again?

No, because when you ready maneuvers they're automatically not expended anymore.

You can also choose to ready the exact same maneuvers after you've expended them all.

Reynard
2010-05-10, 11:15 AM
Ah. So I can have a near-infinite cycle of fire and throws.

The Warblade version still seems the best recovery method, since they get to make an attack in the same turn, rather than doing nothing.

Boci
2010-05-10, 11:18 AM
The Warblade version still seems the best recovery method, since they get to make an attack in the same turn, rather than doing nothing.

Yeah, warblades is generally considered to be the best. The crusaders is good as well, although the lack of control thing is annoying. The swordsage's is the worst, but they have the highest amount of maneuvers known and readied. For this reason, depending on how long combat takes at your table, you may not even need adaptive style.

Reynard
2010-05-10, 11:23 AM
Oh, I need the variety that it gives me. I'm getting this character ready for a partial gestalt game in case my current one bites the the dust. We've been fighting our way through a series of arena matches, and the often have varied opponents. Currently, we're in a maze with gelatinous cubes (2 dead), gnolls (20 dead), a dead ogre and god knows what else.

Swordsage+Adaptive Style+my Template+Adept lets me be ready for anything.

Tavar
2010-05-10, 11:29 AM
The Warblade version still seems the best recovery method, since they get to make an attack in the same turn, rather than doing nothing.

Crusader is pretty good. Remember, after you're first 2 turns you have all of your maneuvers, and the list can be very, very good. Plus, you don't have to take an action, which is always nice.

Gnaeus
2010-05-10, 11:42 AM
Really the best recovery method is a combination of crusader and swordsage or warblade, accomplished through dipping. Something like crusader 4/swordsage 1/rest crusader (or Mo9), crusader 8/swordsage 1/rest crusader (or Mo9), or swordsage 8/crusader 1/rest swordsage (or Mo9). That combines the reliability of being able to pick maneuvers to use at any point in the battle with the crusader's ability to never run out of maneuvers.

marjan
2010-05-10, 12:18 PM
The Warblade version still seems the best recovery method, since they get to make an attack in the same turn, rather than doing nothing.

Actually, Crusaders have best recovery method, albeit a little random. Warblade's recovery method sounds great until you realize that you cannot initiate any maneuvers, while recovering one.

Reynard
2010-05-10, 12:27 PM
For a warblade, it's a single swift action and either a melee attack or doing nothing to get all of your readied maneuvers back.

Crusaders get one random one per turn. Maybe they don't need to recover them, but they don't have much choice or opportunity to come up with reliable combos.

Tavar
2010-05-10, 12:39 PM
For a warblade, it's a single swift action and either a melee attack or doing nothing to get all of your readied maneuvers back.

Crusaders get one random one per turn. Maybe they don't need to recover them, but they don't have much choice or opportunity to come up with reliable combos.

Well, that's not quite true. At first level, at the start of combat, they get 2 maneuvers, and one more at the end of each round, until they have all 5, at which point it resets. At 10th and 20th level this total jumps by 1, to 6(3) and then 7(4). If you take a feat, it's instead 5(3), 6(4), and 7(5). So you need 2 or 3 turns to have access to all of your maneuvers. And when it recycles, you get the same number of ones that you had at the begin of combat, simply randomized. Plus, there are very few maneuvers that you really need to combo, and most of the ones that would be needed urgently aren't needed until after several rounds of combat, when you will have access to more.

Plus, the Warbalde is doing a single melee attack. Not a full attack, one attack. So they get the same drop off in effectiveness that core melee does, just not as often.

Draz74
2010-05-10, 01:02 PM
I should think most DMs agree that the swordsage wis to ac also works when not wearing armour.

True, but most DMs will stop being so reasonable and start enforcing the exact rules if you start to try to do silly things like stacking the Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses. :smalltongue:


Plus, the Warbalde is doing a single melee attack. Not a full attack, one attack. So they get the same drop off in effectiveness that core melee does, just not as often.


You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.

Last I checked, making a full attack started off with making an attack (which can be melee). So a Warblade just needs to make sure, when he needs to recover maneuvers, that he's in position to make a full attack without using a maneuver to get in position. Then he can use a swift action to recover maneuvers and still make a full attack on that turn. He just can't use a full-round Strike (of which there are several very nice ones) or use a Boost to enhance the full attack.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-10, 02:53 PM
A Single Attack (or just "an attack") is not the same as a Standard Action.

A Single Attack can be, but does not have to be, part of a full attack action.

Note what that does for a WarHulk with BAB 6+. :smallbiggrin:

Reynard
2010-05-11, 03:24 PM
I've been trying to work out exactly what you give a swordsage to make it the unarmed variant.

ToB says: "To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

But does this just mean the modified damage dice, or does it include the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike, Quivering Palm, etc, bonuses as well?

Eldariel
2010-05-11, 03:27 PM
I've been trying to work out exactly what you give a swordsage to make it the unarmed variant.

ToB says: "To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

But does this just mean the modified damage dice, or does it include the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike, Quivering Palm, etc, bonuses as well?

Give the Monk's "Unarmed Strike"-class feature and it's straight; Ki Strikes, Quivering Palms and such don't belong. Though might want to carry the extra Stunning Fist-uses over.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-11, 03:43 PM
I've been trying to work out exactly what you give a swordsage to make it the unarmed variant.

ToB says: "To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

But does this just mean the modified damage dice, or does it include the free Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Strike, Quivering Palm, etc, bonuses as well?

Just the modified damage dice and Improved Unarmed Strike, I would assume.

I would personally limit the weapon proficiencies and not give the Flurry of Blows either.

Probably even remove one Maneuver Known because only losing light armor proficiency to gain Improved Unarmed Strike & increasing unarmed damage doesn't seem balanced. Especially since Light Armor proficiency is going to get you, at best, 5AC (Mithril BP) over Bracers of Defence.

Greenish
2010-05-11, 03:45 PM
Especially since Light Armor proficiency is going to get you, at best, 5AC (Mithril BP) over Bracers of Defence.And immunity to crits and death attacks.

JaronK
2010-05-11, 03:50 PM
Don't forget you can still wear light armor without proficiency, you just REALLY don't want an armor check penalty. Nothing stops you from wearing Shadowsilk Leather Armor enchanted however you want, for example. Or how about a nice Mithral Chain Shirt?

JaronK

Eldariel
2010-05-11, 03:50 PM
Probably even remove one Maneuver Known because only losing light armor proficiency to gain Improved Unarmed Strike & increasing unarmed damage doesn't seem balanced. Especially since Light Armor proficiency is going to get you, at best, 5AC (Mithril BP) over Bracers of Defence.

Uhm, Light Armor Proficiency kicks the living out of Unarmored. Swordsages have among the best ACs of the game for the first 6-7 levels (with maxed Dex on any light armor) while Monks are among the worst. Light Armor Swordsages cap at ~9+10+Wis (+5 Celestial Armor of Nimbleness) for Armor+Dex while Monks cap at N+8+Wis, but N is irrelevant since it can at most be 13 (assuming base increases of levels, items and tomes with 20 base) and if it is, 13, you've cut +3 Wis away thus leading to lower composite anyways. And that's before we account for the fact that light armor can contain armor special abilities, while Bracers are denied that bonus.

Serenity
2010-05-11, 08:44 PM
Though not stated, for him to actually be able to use any of those unarmed attacks, give him Improved Unarmed Strike, just as the monk. And let his WIS-to-armor apply when he's unarmored, rather than only when he's in light armor.

The lesson: the Unarmed Swordsage variant is not a full variant, only a suggestion of how you could alter the class. However, it's a suggestion that is very easy to make functional, and with those few alterations, allows you to play any concept that would have called for the monk class, and actually be effective.

tyckspoon
2010-05-11, 10:44 PM
Though not stated, for him to actually be able to use any of those unarmed attacks, give him Improved Unarmed Strike, just as the monk. And let his WIS-to-armor apply when he's unarmored, rather than only when he's in light armor.

The lesson: the Unarmed Swordsage variant is not a full variant, only a suggestion of how you could alter the class. However, it's a suggestion that is very easy to make functional, and with those few alterations, allows you to play any concept that would have called for the monk class, and actually be effective.

It is stated- you give him the Monk's Unarmed Strike. That is a specific class feature of the Monk, which reads as follows:

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.


Plus the stuff about increasing damage dice. It would have been nice if they'd remembered to write 'light armor or none' on the Wis-to-AC ability, tho.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-11, 11:00 PM
I believe that there is a rule that says that when you change your manoubers they are readied for future use, thus if you select new manoubers in combat you readied all of them or something like that.

I might be wrong since I am away from books so....

Edit: Ninja'edswordsage'dTry 'maneuver'. Spelling it like that just looks stupid.

They're not 'manoeuvers' either, people. How do you even pronounce that? Man-o-oovers?

Sophismata
2010-05-12, 12:31 AM
Try 'maneuver'. Spelling it like that just looks stupid.

They're not 'manoeuvers' either, people. How do you even pronounce that? Man-o-oovers?

Manoeuvre is the correct spelling in most English-speaking countries. The word is of French origin. It is pronounced məˈnuːvə(ɹ).

For what it's worth, we allow the Monk and Swordsage bonuses to stack in our games, and assume that the Swordsage bonus applies when unarmoured.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-12, 01:19 AM
Uhm, Light Armor Proficiency kicks the living out of Unarmored. Swordsages have among the best ACs of the game for the first 6-7 levels (with maxed Dex on any light armor) while Monks are among the worst. Light Armor Swordsages cap at ~9+10+Wis (+5 Celestial Armor of Nimbleness) for Armor+Dex while Monks cap at N+8+Wis, but N is irrelevant since it can at most be 13 (assuming base increases of levels, items and tomes with 20 base) and if it is, 13, you've cut +3 Wis away thus leading to lower composite anyways. And that's before we account for the fact that light armor can contain armor special abilities, while Bracers are denied that bonus.

Actually, in the MIC, Bracers of Armor are specifically allowed to gain armor special abilities.

Assuming two levels of Nimbleness on your +5 Celestial armor... With a starting Dex of 18, +5 Tome, +6 Item, +1 Level increase. Starting Wis of 18, +5 Tome, +6 Item, +3 Level increase.

Monk gets Bracers +8 and same stats.

Armoured Swordsage has 2 lower AC at level 20 than Unarmored Monk and only 2 higher AC than Unarmored Swordsage.

The +5 Celestial armor (with two levels of Nimbleness) would have a cost of 62,400. The +8 Bracers cost 64,000.

Edit: Yes, in general Light armor proficiency wins at lower levels... especially if you've got a Cleric to cast Magical Vestment as well. But at higher levels, it's nearly meaningless.

Keld Denar
2010-05-12, 01:31 AM
Actually, in the MIC, Bracers of Armor are specifically allowed to gain armor special abilities.


Close. It was actually the Arms and Equipment Guide, sidebar on page 130.

Eldariel
2010-05-12, 03:31 AM
Close. It was actually the Arms and Equipment Guide, sidebar on page 130.

It's worth noting that A&EG isn't a source you'll always have access to. But ultimately, it's pretty irrelevant; your Bracers won't gain a +5 ability without sacrificing 3 points of AC, while Light Armor of Nimbleness can fit +5 with Magic Vestment (which doesn't work on Bracers) without any investment, and only gives up +1 even without any.

Tokiko Mima
2010-05-12, 06:00 AM
It's worth noting that A&EG isn't a source you'll always have access to. But ultimately, it's pretty irrelevant; your Bracers won't gain a +5 ability without sacrificing 3 points of AC, while Light Armor of Nimbleness can fit +5 with Magic Vestment (which doesn't work on Bracers) without any investment, and only gives up +1 even without any.

The fun part about Bracers of Armor and magic Light armor without an ACP?

The armor bonus from the Bracers stacks with the armor enhancement bonus from the light armor. So you can have +5 worth of A&EG bracers of armor properties stacking with whatever you can fit on your light armor. I usually put Ghost Ward on the Light armor so I can count my armor enhancement bonus vs. touch attacks as well.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-12, 09:27 AM
Manoeuvre is the correct spelling in most English-speaking countries. The word is of French origin. It is pronounced məˈnuːvə(ɹ).The spelling is still 'maneuver,' since that's what they're defined as in the Tome of Battle, just as the the Monster Manual spells it 'gray elf' and not 'grey elf,' or writing the name 'Mikel' as 'Michael.'

Anything else is a misspelling.

Boci
2010-05-12, 11:01 AM
The spelling is still 'maneuver,' since that's what they're defined as in the Tome of Battle, just as the the Monster Manual spells it 'gray elf' and not 'grey elf,' or writing the name 'Mikel' as 'Michael.'

Anything else is a misspelling.

Nope, because that is just due to american english spelling. That would be like saying "armour" is a misspelling.

Greenish
2010-05-12, 11:24 AM
Nope, because that is just due to american english spelling. That would be like saying "armour" is a misspelling."Armour" is what your character wears to get "Armor Bonus". :smallbiggrin:

That's how I see it anyway: game terms aren't "translated".

acid_ninja
2010-05-12, 11:27 AM
Professional opinion of an English teacher: both spellings are equally correct. Neither British nor North American English is right or wrong.

Australian on the other hand...

Regarding the Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader thing: Yes, Warblades have a lot going for them, but they don't get access to Desert Wind or Shadow Hand, although Iron Heart is massively bad ass and they still get Tiger Claw. Its all about what you enjoy doing more - sneaking and utility or Hulk Smash?

Reynard
2010-05-12, 11:33 AM
SEMANTICS! YAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY. :smallannoyed:

English is a mess of a language. The American dialect even more so. This is not news.

Boci
2010-05-12, 11:39 AM
That's how I see it anyway: game terms aren't "translated".

Any particular reason why?

Greenish
2010-05-12, 12:06 PM
Any particular reason why?Not really. Helps to distinguish between fluff and crunch though, peeps know when you mean a specific game term and when you're just describing something. Example: running over, tripping someone and then hitting them (woot for improved trip) could be called a manouvre, but it's not a maneuver.

Just a habit I've got, I guess.