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Octopus Jack
2010-05-10, 11:56 AM
Help please...

So I'm about to make a character for a new game and I've been wanting to play a Shaper Psion. Starting level is 6, want to grab quite a few item creation feats.

Ideas for Races, Powers, good feats?

thanks :smallbiggrin:

Also on a side note can Craft Psionic Construct be used for anything apart from psion killers?

Draz74
2010-05-10, 12:48 PM
Feats

Hmmm, you have 5 feats, or 6 if you go Human.

Non-item creation feats that you certainly want include Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, Overchannel, Talented, and Boost Construct. So you have to figure out how many of those you're willing to give up for item creation.

Personally, I'd just go with one Item Creation feat at these levels, since you don't have loads of money or XP to spend on item creation anyway.

Good item creation feats are mostly the same for psionics as they are for arcanists: Craft Universal Item, Craft Dorje, Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Imprint Stone are probably the best four. (Craft Psicrown might actually be decent, too ... but you can't take it until Level 12 anyway.)

For feats, you also certainly want a few Expanded Knowledges (including Schism) and at least one of Quicken Power or Linked Power. But these things can wait until higher levels, I guess. (You can't get EK(Schism) until Level 9 anyway.)

Races

The three classic optimal races for Psions are Human, Elan, and Kalashtar. I'm particularly fond of Azurins myself, and mixing Psionics and Incarnum, but that requires a whole separate selection of feats, so I'll proceed under the assumption that you're not jumping into that.

Powers

You have 13 Powers Known ... you should probably decide right away whether you are going to deal with powers that use Attack Rolls, or not. If you are going to use attack roll powers (such as Energy Ray, Crystal Shard, and eventually Psionic Disintegrate), you should certainly pick up Inertial Armor. If you're going to avoid those powers, then you can also skip Inertial Armor, since you can just nonproficiently wear full plate, no problems.

Pick 2-4 attack powers that target a variety of defenses and saves. Good ones include Energy Ray, Energy Stun*, Energy Missile* (if you can afford to spend a feat to learn it), Crystal Shard, Ego Whip, and Mind Thrust. For those last two, beware creatures that are immune to mind-affecting. The two with asterisks are especially nasty at higher levels, if you're not using the CPsi errrata to them.

Astral Construct is the heart and soul of any Shaper, of course. You should look up the online Constructor PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) and figure out if you want to be aiming for that -- it will choose a couple of your powers for you.

Most of the Shaper-list powers are pretty good and deserve consideration: Minor Creation, Repair Damage, Greater Concealing Amorpha (!), Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Fabricate, Quintessence, Genesis ... yummy! Note that there are is some crazy stuff you can pull off that your DM may or may not consider cheese with Creation powers and Fabricate and some good Craft skills, such as combining Major Creation, Fabricate, and maxed Craft (poisonmaking) to get a whole bunch of Black Lotus Extract for free.

Vigor is also a must-have power for pretty much any Psion. If you're really worried about staying alive, make sure you also get a Psicrystal and the Share Pain power.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-10, 01:16 PM
With a shaper, you have a few options. They're incredibly flexible, and can easily be built to be useful in virtually any situation. They're better than most at conserving power points and still being potent, and they really only need a small handful of powers and feats for their primary schticks, meaning they can invest more resources into other areas and still be good.

If you want to focus on using the incredibly versatile astral construct power, there are a few things you might want to look into. Boost Construct is a definite, since it increases the versatility AND power of any construct you create. The Durable Construct feat from Hyperconscious (a 3rd party but well-written sourcebook that was written by the author of the XPH, Bruce Cordell) can be taken at ML 3 and can boost your constructs' durations to a flat 10 minutes. Extend Power will boost that total to 20 minutes (which is awesome). Linked Power (from Complete Psionic) will let you manifest a power this round, and still have your construct ready to go next round. Overchannel (and possibly Talented, if you want to prevent the damage) will let you manifest higher level constructs. Midnight Augmentation (from Magic of Incarnum) helps save on manifesting costs, as does taking Metapower (from C.Psionic) + Linked Power (or any other metapsionic feat you plan on using often). Grabbing items that boost your manifester level will come in uber-handy for extending the power and versatility of your constructs as well; orange ioun stones should give you a +1 boost, arcanist gloves (as many as you can afford) might give you an additional +2 a few times per day if you can talk your DM into allowing them for a shaper, and if you take the psionic open chakra power and bind a metamagic rod to your hands slot you might just be able to grab another +1 to your manifester level when using the rod on astral construct (but clear it with your DM first, since there technically aren't any metapsionic rods). And since you're wanting to use metapsionics a lot, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, and Psionic Meditation are needed to make full use of them (and yes, that's a lot of feats). Just hitting Psionic Meditation and hustle would be enough to get you started, however.

If you wanna focus that much on astral construct, the 3.5 constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is the way to go. Awesome awesome awesome PrC.

Otherwise, you can focus on psionic minor creation by boosting up your Craft checks really high, taking Linked Power to cut down on manifesting times, and more manifester level boosters to increase how much you're making with a single power point. Possibly the most economical use of a shaper ever, considering how long your created items last. Craft (alchemy) for poisons and other liquids, Craft (sculpting) for solid objects, and Craft (weaving) for flexible objects, should be just about enough for anything you want to make, and they're useful in other contexts, as well. An artisan psicrystal would help a bit here, for the +3 to all Craft checks.

You can also take standard powers, augmenting your list with some of the more offensive powers on your list, such as ectoplasmic cocoon and crystallize, though you should check with your DM to see if he's going to make hail of crystals subject to DR before taking it.

Psicrystal Affinity + share pain and vigor (both shared with your psicrystal) will assist you with your low hp total, and psionic repair damage is worth it, but only if you're a warforged and have a psicrystal (repairing your astral constructs really isn't worth much given that you can just make another one for about the same cost). Defensive precognition will assist with saves and AC, and inertial armor is great for protecting you from incorporeal touch attacks since it lasts so long and grants a [force] armor bonus to your AC. Having a 1st level swift action power (such as grip of iron) to Link with other powers improves your action efficiency (you'll have access to Linked swift powers, Linked standard powers, and Linked move powers), though finding a way to get access to hustle (either through research or Expanded Knowledge) will give you the ability to get back your psionic focus for more Linked powers, though it's more expensive.

Once you get into higher levels, check out psionic open chakra and some Shape Soulmeld feats for lots of interesting effects, and soul crystal for some no-XP/no-GP dorje equivalents (combine with quintessence to make them permanent). All of those are from Magic of Incarnum. Energy conversion + energy wall will take care of all of your blasting needs later on, especially when combo'd with your psicrystal.

Otherwise, it's a matter of creativity and expanding in the direction you want to go with the rest of your resources. Shaper benefits tremendously from creativity. What kinds of things can you think to do with disposable Lego-minions and a cheap power that lets you make virtually any nonmagic item of any substance you can think of, so long as it's not made from metal?

You should be able to substitute any powers known for equivalent spells known for constructs, though that's DM fiat, because RAW you can basically only create psion killers. See if he'll let you spend XP and GP to make some astral constructs into actual golems, since they're quite good when they last a long time.

Also, wait until later to take any psionic item creation feats aside from power stones; use psychic reformation to swap those feats out for more adventuring-friendly feats when you're not using them.

If you have any other questions in mind, let me know.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-10, 01:39 PM
Feats

Hmmm, you have 5 feats, or 6 if you go Human.Or if you go strongheart halfling; they might actually be better than human, since they're Small sized and get a bonus feat (and the other bonuses they grant aren't shabby at all).


Non-item creation feats that you certainly want include Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, Overchannel, Talented, and Boost Construct. So you have to figure out how many of those you're willing to give up for item creation.Definitely, though Linked Power should be very high on the list, since it means you don't have to spend a whole round manifesting astral construct.


Personally, I'd just go with one Item Creation feat at these levels, since you don't have loads of money or XP to spend on item creation anyway.The best for now would probably be Imprint Stone, since power stones are cheap and useful. The others tend to be rather expensive, time-consuming, and not too widespread in use, since there are only a double-handful of psionic items to make (though dorjes aren't limited to the 4th-level-or-below restrictions of wands). I'd generally only take Craft Universal Item if he's wanting to make something in specific, such as a psychoactive skin of proteus (though it's expensive and he'd have to have access to metamorphosis for that) or stat-boosting items (though the DM would have to okay animal affinity for use in making headbands and such, and he'd have to grab hold of the power off of the egoist or psychic warrior list). Overall, unless he has extra XP to burn prior to beginning the game, he should probably wait until he has access to psychic reformation to use for feat-swapping, so he doesn't waste the all-important feat slots.


Good item creation feats are mostly the same for psionics as they are for arcanists: Craft Universal Item, Craft Dorje, Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, Imprint Stone are probably the best four. (Craft Psicrown might actually be decent, too ... but you can't take it until Level 12 anyway.)As far as Craft Psionic Arms and Armor? He's not going to be on the front lines, and there aren't very many good armor enhancements he'll want to use, so unless there's no other crafter-type in the party, he probably won't want to use it much (and again, he'll want to use psychic reformation for feat-swaps anyhow).


For feats, you also certainly want a few Expanded Knowledges (including Schism) and at least one of Quicken Power or Linked Power. But these things can wait until higher levels, I guess. (You can't get EK(Schism) until Level 9 anyway.)Schism is generally overhyped for any but specific build ideas; it's expensive, and doesn't improve action efficiency that much (though watch out for using it with energy conversion). Linked Power is considerably better for a shaper in general, and is available at earlier levels.


Races

The three classic optimal races for Psions are Human, Elan, and Kalashtar. I'm particularly fond of Azurins myself, and mixing Psionics and Incarnum, but that requires a whole separate selection of feats, so I'll proceed under the assumption that you're not jumping into that.He's a shaper; definitely consider warforged (as they're constructs, have lots of nice abilities and immunities, and can be healed via psionic repair damage). Plus, they get bonuses to Con (very nice), and their constructiness works well with using astral construct and making constructs via Craft Psionic Construct, if he chooses to go that direction (and speaking of which, see if you can't get a dedicated wright homunculus from the Eberron Campaign book; they'll make crafting much easier).


Powers

You have 13 Powers Known ... you should probably decide right away whether you are going to deal with powers that use Attack Rolls, or not. If you are going to use attack roll powers (such as Energy Ray, Crystal Shard, and eventually Psionic Disintegrate), you should certainly pick up Inertial Armor. If you're going to avoid those powers, then you can also skip Inertial Armor, since you can just nonproficiently wear full plate, no problems.

Pick 2-4 attack powers that target a variety of defenses and saves. Good ones include Energy Ray, Energy Stun*, Energy Missile* (if you can afford to spend a feat to learn it), Crystal Shard, Ego Whip, and Mind Thrust. For those last two, beware creatures that are immune to mind-affecting. The two with asterisks are especially nasty at higher levels, if you're not using the CPsi errata to them.I'd be wary of blasting; that's less effective for a shaper than using astral construct to just lay the smack down. It'll burn you out of pp faster and is generally less effective due to potential missed attack rolls and made saves.

However, psionic grease and entangling ectoplasm should both be highly considered, since they're cheap, useful against pretty much anything, and effective even into epic. They also help with action economy.


Astral Construct is the heart and soul of any Shaper, of course. You should look up the online Constructor PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) and figure out if you want to be aiming for that -- it will choose a couple of your powers for you.

Most of the Shaper-list powers are pretty good and deserve consideration: Minor Creation, Repair Damage, Greater Concealing Amorpha (!), Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Fabricate, Quintessence, Genesis ... yummy! Note that there are is some crazy stuff you can pull off that your DM may or may not consider cheese with Creation powers and Fabricate and some good Craft skills, such as combining Major Creation, Fabricate, and maxed Craft (poisonmaking) to get a whole bunch of Black Lotus Extract for free.I definitely agree with taking most of the stuff off of the shaper list. It's the most consistently awesome out of all the lists. Definitely bulk up.


Vigor is also a must-have power for pretty much any Psion. If you're really worried about staying alive, make sure you also get a Psicrystal and the Share Pain power.Definitely.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-10, 02:02 PM
I suggest Psiforged (Magic of Eberron) for the bonuses of being both psionic and living construct, then take the Construct Maker PrC from one of the psionic books (forgot which 1)

Either that, or multiclass for 2 levels into either Marshal or Dragon Shaman to use and abuse Auras on your summons ;3Well, first off, avoid the Ectopic Adept from CPsi. It sucks because Ectopic Form sucks. Constructor is incredible, though.

As far as auras? Constructs are immune to morale effects (mind-affecting, don'tchaknow), but it'd be a good idea if you can get auras that will affect them. Shapers get UPD, so get a dorje or two of haste (spell-to-power erudites can make them) and go to town.

Draz74
2010-05-10, 02:33 PM
Extend Power will boost that total to 20 minutes (which is awesome).
Hmmm, depending on your DM's style of throwing encounters at you, it doesn't seem like 20 minutes would be much better than 10 minutes. Either way, it easily outlasts a single combat, and only lasts more than one combat if your DM throws them at you in rapid succession.

It's a nice boost, sure, but there are so many other good feats ... (and it costs 2 extra PP and your Focus).


orange ioun stones should give you a +1 boost,
At level 6? Ha. Good luck getting the DM to put this in your loot.


though you should check with your DM to see if he's going to make hail of crystals subject to DR before taking it.
Hmmm, which way does RAW go on that?


and psionic repair damage is worth it, but only if you're a warforged and have a psicrystal (repairing your astral constructs really isn't worth much given that you can just make another one for about the same cost).
Good point about the Astral Constructs ... but it also depends if you have any other Warforged in your party. :smallwink:


Defensive precognition will assist with saves and AC,
Yup, I didn't bother mentioning that one, but it's great.


Having a 1st level swift action power (such as grip of iron) to Link with other powers improves your action efficiency
Ah, but it's not on the Psion or Shaper list. Doesn't seem like it's worth spending a feat on. (How often will he be in a grapple?) There's got to be some L1 Psion power that's a swift action, though ... or, if not, one that might be worth a feat is Dimension Hop.

Oh wait, though. Either way (Grip of Iron or Dimension Hop), you can't use it to Link Astral Construct powers, because Linked Power has that restriction about both powers having the same Target. And most of the good swift action powers are Target: Self, while Astral Construct isn't. Hmmm. :smallconfused:


Energy conversion + energy wall will take care of all of your blasting needs later on, especially when combo'd with your psicrystal.
Interesting combo ... I'm surprised I've never see that before, though I'm still not sure it's better than just having a lower-level blasting power.


Or if you go strongheart halfling; they might actually be better than human, since they're Small sized and get a bonus feat (and the other bonuses they grant aren't shabby at all).
Ah yes. I tend to forget about those, since they're in a Forgotten Realms book and some of my DMs have considered them cheese.


Definitely, though Linked Power should be very high on the list, since it means you don't have to spend a whole round manifesting astral construct.
Again, this is a great idea, but check with your DM for how it interacts with Linked Power's limitations. If it just means your Astral Construct has to appear in the same square that you were in when you buffed yourself with the linking power, that's fine, though it means you'll need to remember to keep moving so you don't crush yourself with a big Construct. :smalltongue:


The best for now would probably be Imprint Stone, since power stones are cheap and useful. The others tend to be rather expensive, time-consuming, and not too widespread in use, since there are only a double-handful of psionic items to make (though dorjes aren't limited to the 4th-level-or-below restrictions of wands). I'd generally only take Craft Universal Item if he's wanting to make something in specific, such as a psychoactive skin of proteus (though it's expensive and he'd have to have access to metamorphosis for that) or stat-boosting items (though the DM would have to okay animal affinity for use in making headbands and such, and he'd have to grab hold of the power off of the egoist or psychic warrior list). Overall, unless he has extra XP to burn prior to beginning the game, he should probably wait until he has access to psychic reformation to use for feat-swapping, so he doesn't waste the all-important feat slots.

As far as Craft Psionic Arms and Armor? He's not going to be on the front lines, and there aren't very many good armor enhancements he'll want to use, so unless there's no other crafter-type in the party, he probably won't want to use it much (and again, he'll want to use psychic reformation for feat-swaps anyhow).
Well, he probably is the only crafter-type in the party. It depends whether he wants to be the designated make-stuff-for-the-meatshields guy.

Good points about waiting for Psychic Reformation before taking Universal Item or Dorje, though. Imprint Stone is definitely the best crafter feat at this level.


Schism is generally overhyped for any but specific build ideas; it's expensive, and doesn't improve action efficiency that much (though watch out for using it with energy conversion).
It's not the best method for action efficiency ... but in my experience, it's about the best method that won't get the DM to throw books at you. :smalltongue:


He's a shaper; definitely consider warforged (as they're constructs, have lots of nice abilities and immunities, and can be healed via psionic repair damage).
Good point. I was thinking general Psion races, but yeah, warforged are awesome Shapers.


However, psionic grease and entangling ectoplasm should both be highly considered, since they're cheap, useful against pretty much anything, and effective even into epic. They also help with action economy.
I find them underwhelming, actually. I think the Grease spell is overhyped except when used with Sculpt Spell (and preferably Heighten Spell), and AFAIK those feats don't have Psionic equivalents. (A 10x10 foot square is just such a tiny, tiny area ...) It certainly isn't "useful against pretty much anything" (e.g. anything that flies).

Entangling Ectoplasm is somewhat better. It's excellent at very low levels. At higher levels, I'd rather buy some Rods of Viscid Globs (MIC). They're cheap and excellent. I suppose you could always learn it at low levels, then eventually swap it out with Psychic Reformation.

Btw, one other favorite power I'd like to recommend is Detect Hostile Intent.


Shapers get UPD, so get a dorje or two of haste (spell-to-power erudites can make them) and go to town.

No sane DM should ever admit that Spell-to-Power Erudites exist in any way, shape, or form. However, you could always just ask about researching a psionic version of Haste. I'd allow it (although I might bump it up to Level 4 or so).

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-10, 03:50 PM
Hmmm, depending on your DM's style of throwing encounters at you, it doesn't seem like 20 minutes would be much better than 10 minutes. Either way, it easily outlasts a single combat, and only lasts more than one combat if your DM throws them at you in rapid succession.

It's a nice boost, sure, but there are so many other good feats ... (and it costs 2 extra PP and your Focus).Recall, though, that astral constructs are good for things other than combat (and mass combats can last a very long time). Using its flight speed (and maybe its swim speed) to travel for 20 minutes isn't a bad use of 5 pp at all. And Extend Power is useful in other situations, as well (such as for just about any buff you care to name). Especially with manifester level boosters.


At level 6? Ha. Good luck getting the DM to put this in your loot.It's a good consideration for later on (CL is 12; with boosters you can craft it before then).


Hmmm, which way does RAW go on that?According to the rules on magic, it's not affected by DR. According to the (widely reviled) nerf of psionics in CPsi, it is. It's up to the DM to decide if he's going to ignore Complete Stupidity's nerfage. As for RAW?

From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Also from the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm) Most psionic monsters have some number of psi-like abilities. These are very similar to spell-like abilities. Naturally, they are psionic and work just like powers or spells. A creature with psi-like abilities does not pay for these abilities with power points and does not pay any XP cost associated with manifesting the power the ability duplicates.

Also: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm) The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.



Good point about the Astral Constructs ... but it also depends if you have any other Warforged in your party. :smallwink:That it does. ALL WARFORGED PARTY, BABY!


Ah, but it's not on the Psion or Shaper list. Doesn't seem like it's worth spending a feat on. (How often will he be in a grapple?) There's got to be some L1 Psion power that's a swift action, though ... or, if not, one that might be worth a feat is Dimension Hop.Hammer, then. Though if he's using it to manifest a Linked astral construct (and if he's going for constructor anyway), he can use ecto protection, since it's a swift power when manifested in the same round as astral construct.


Oh wait, though. Either way (Grip of Iron or Dimension Hop), you can't use it to Link Astral Construct powers, because Linked Power has that restriction about both powers having the same Target. And most of the good swift action powers are Target: Self, while Astral Construct isn't. Hmmm. :smallconfused:The restriction is that if they can be targeted identically, they will be targeted identically. If you have a Personal power and a Touch power, they both have to be targeted on you unless you manifest the Touch power first.

In this case, a Personal power Linked with astral construct would allow you to place the construct anywhere within range you like.


Interesting combo ... I'm surprised I've never see that before, though I'm still not sure it's better than just having a lower-level blasting power.It lasts for hours by that level, and can be metapsionicked when you first manifest it (Overchannel + Split Psionic Ray + Chained Power = win), then use Greater/Psionic Shot on it. When combined with appropriate use of your psicrystal, metamorphosis (to turn the psicrystal into something not immune to [mind-affecting] effects), and schism, you can get a ton of damage. If all the rays hit, that's 24*ML damage plus Greater Psionic Shot and whatever other damage boosters you've got. Whenever you run out of juice, sit in a campfire, holding the wrong end of a torch, and inside of a energy wall to charge up. If any of your allies have at-will energy attacks, they can plink away at you as well.


Ah yes. I tend to forget about those, since they're in a Forgotten Realms book and some of my DMs have considered them cheese.They're a good race, no doubt about it. They may be up for consideration depending on available sources.


Again, this is a great idea, but check with your DM for how it interacts with Linked Power's limitations. If it just means your Astral Construct has to appear in the same square that you were in when you buffed yourself with the linking power, that's fine, though it means you'll need to remember to keep moving so you don't crush yourself with a big Construct. :smalltongue:See above, and reread Linked Power.


Well, he probably is the only crafter-type in the party. It depends whether he wants to be the designated make-stuff-for-the-meatshields guy.

Good points about waiting for Psychic Reformation before taking Universal Item or Dorje, though. Imprint Stone is definitely the best crafter feat at this level.Yeah. No sense in wasting feats when XP is a river. Whenever you sub your feats out before crafting, make sure you minimize your XP and GP output when crafting. Apprentice (Crafter) from the DMG II, Extraordinary Artisan and Legendary Artisan, and other abilities allow you to reduce XP and GP costs when crafting, which is very nice when spending your resources. I managed to get more than 225,000 gp on a level 11 character doing this, using nothing but crafted WBL.


It's not the best method for action efficiency ... but in my experience, it's about the best method that won't get the DM to throw books at you. :smalltongue:Linked Power alone beats schism's arse. Hustle is better than schism as well, if only because it costs less and takes effect immediately (rather than forcing you to blow an action that won't take effect until next round). It does have its uses, but it's only really good if you prep for it.


Good point. I was thinking general Psion races, but yeah, warforged are awesome Shapers.Pretty much anything without LA and Int/Con penalties make good psions. Dwarves do quite well, and gray elves are...passable. Turn them into dragonborn to remove the Con penalty.

The psionic races don't actually do too well as psions (except for elans), and actually do better as non-psionic classes that take psionic feats (but look around for racial substitution levels).


I find them underwhelming, actually. I think the Grease spell is overhyped except when used with Sculpt Spell (and preferably Heighten Spell), and AFAIK those feats don't have Psionic equivalents. (A 10x10 foot square is just such a tiny, tiny area ...) It certainly isn't "useful against pretty much anything" (e.g. anything that flies).

Entangling Ectoplasm is somewhat better. It's excellent at very low levels. At higher levels, I'd rather buy some Rods of Viscid Globs (MIC). They're cheap and excellent. I suppose you could always learn it at low levels, then eventually swap it out with Psychic Reformation.Psionic grease works really well for anything ground-bound without ranks in Balance (which is just about any groundbound monster). It works REALLY well against mindless constructs and mindless corporeal undead, since they're basically screwed, even into epic.

The nice thing about entangling ectoplasm is that it stacks with other penalties (see: slow, lassos, bolas, and other movement reducers), and makes maneuverability really difficult for fliers.

But yes, both are quite good; psionic grease is awesome against nearly anything that can't fly, and entangling ectoplasm works against anything small enough that you can actually affect it at your level. Both are inexpensive, pp-wise, and they're both very useful.


Btw, one other favorite power I'd like to recommend is Detect Hostile Intent.It's really a good power, yeah. As is touchsight. Of course, if you can get Shape Soulmeld (shedu crown) at later levels, especially when taking the psionic open chakra feat, you can get 100' telepathy, meaning you can also take Mindsight to auto-pinpoint anything non-mindless within that area. Yeah, it takes a bit more to do, but it gives you a LOT more.


No sane DM should ever admit that Spell-to-Power Erudites exist in any way, shape, or form. However, you could always just ask about researching a psionic version of Haste. I'd allow it (although I might bump it up to Level 4 or so).It's just really hard to buff astral constructs without resorting to early-entry cerebremancer cheese. It's doable, but you have to avoid any morale effects and anything that only affects living creatures. One interesting way to do this is by setting up the soul crystal power to get some personal psionic buffs, using a move action to give them to your constructs, then having them buff themselves.

One more thing...Check out the chronocharms in the Magic Item Compendium, and tell me that the Charm of the Uncaring Archmage wasn't just MADE for a shaper.

Octopus Jack
2010-05-10, 04:21 PM
Thanks for all the great help guys :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2010-05-10, 04:35 PM
As for RAW?
That's what I thought. I could definitely understand a DM ruling that it's affected by DR, though.


It lasts for hours by that level, and can be metapsionicked when you first manifest it (Overchannel + Split Psionic Ray + Chained Power = win), then use Greater/Psionic Shot on it. When combined with appropriate use of your psicrystal, metamorphosis (to turn the psicrystal into something not immune to [mind-affecting] effects), and schism, you can get a ton of damage. If all the rays hit, that's 24*ML damage plus Greater Psionic Shot and whatever other damage boosters you've got. Whenever you run out of juice, sit in a campfire, holding the wrong end of a torch, and inside of a energy wall to charge up. If any of your allies have at-will energy attacks, they can plink away at you as well.
Nice.


Hammer, then. Though if he's using it to manifest a Linked astral construct (and if he's going for constructor anyway), he can use ecto protection, since it's a swift power when manifested in the same round as astral construct.

The restriction is that if they can be targeted identically, they will be targeted identically. If you have a Personal power and a Touch power, they both have to be targeted on you unless you manifest the Touch power first.

In this case, a Personal power Linked with astral construct would allow you to place the construct anywhere within range you like.

[snip]

See above, and reread Linked Power.

The linked power is automatically targeted on the same area or target as the power you manifest in this round (if the power you manifest this round has no area or target, choose an area or target in this round for the linked power to affect in the next round).
I still say this is pretty messy to interpret exactly. If you link Astral Construct to a Personal power, then it generally has "Target: You." So Astral Construct would be aimed at the area that covers that same target? Ugh, I don't know.

I wouldn't allow manifesting Ecto Protection on a construct that does not, in fact, yet exist.

Hammer works, but means you have to wade into melee to get any benefit out of it. (Side note, Hammer is actually very poorly worded in terms of how it works with the action economy, especially when augmented.) I wonder if Expanded Knowledge (Dimension Hop) is still the best option. It's a terribly useful power to have anyway.


Psionic grease works really well for anything ground-bound without ranks in Balance (which is just about any groundbound monster).
Really? Because they only have to move 5 feet to be out of its area. Sure, there are some OK features about it, like if your party Rogue is able to Sneak Attack them first, or if they fail the save and fall prone (unlikely at higher levels).


The nice thing about entangling ectoplasm is that it stacks with other penalties (see: slow, lassos, bolas, and other movement reducers), and makes maneuverability really difficult for fliers.
Rods of Viscid Globs do all that, too. I still think they're better, once you can afford them.


One more thing...Check out the chronocharms in the Magic Item Compendium, and tell me that the Charm of the Uncaring Archmage wasn't just MADE for a shaper.
Assuming you can convince your DM that magic/psi transparency applies, yes, that looks like a must-have.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-10, 05:05 PM
Thanks for all the great help guys :smallbiggrin:You're welcome; however, the debate is on now, and it's no longer your thread. :smalltongue: Have fun sitting on the sidelines now.

Anyway, if you want more info and advice on whatever direction you choose to go in, we'll be here, I'm sure.


That's what I thought. I could definitely understand a DM ruling that it's affected by DR, though.It's not a huge deal so long as magic is treated the same way. It's the fact that magic is already horrifically powerful, whereas psionics is less so, and it's psionics that's getting nerfed into uselessness.

I know that WotC hates psionics with irrational hatred of hatey-hate, but it's still annoying.

Oh well; it's not like it's actual errata; it can thus be safely ignored.


I still say this is pretty messy to interpret exactly. If you link Astral Construct to a Personal power, then it generally has "Target: You." So Astral Construct would be aimed at the area that covers that same target? Ugh, I don't know.You can't summon or create a creature in an occupied space, so they can't be targeted similarly. Not to mention that astral construct doesn't have a Target line anyway.

It has to work that way; there's no other way for it to work.


I wouldn't allow manifesting Ecto Protection on a construct that does not, in fact, yet exist.Except that's how it has to work, RAW. Astral construct takes 1 round to manifest, which means you're manifesting from the beginning of this turn until the beginning of next turn; in order to manifest ecto protection as a swift action power on the same turn that astral construct is manifested, it has to affect a construct that isn't yet in existence (since you can't do so next round, because it's not the same round OR turn). Plus, it's treated as if it were an augmentation to astral construct already, as the pp cost of astral construct + ecto protection can't exceed your manifester level when it's done in that manner.

Arguments can be made against it, but things don't start making sense if you do. That way lies madness SPARTAAAA!


Hammer works, but means you have to wade into melee to get any benefit out of it. (Side note, Hammer is actually very poorly worded in terms of how it works with the action economy, especially when augmented.)It doesn't work at all under the way it was originally written, but the errata makes it a touch power as a swift action; you choose a target to touch (including yourself), and that target can make one or more touch attacks for 1 round (since there's no mention of discharging; augmentation increases this by 1 round per pp) that deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage, with natural attacks also receiving +1d8 bludgeoning damage when they hit (though not as touch attacks).

If you don't like that, try a small hop as a free action, and manifesting catfall. Catfall can even be manifested when it's not your turn, can be used to reduce falling damage, and even keep you from getting tripped (though you still are targeted by an extra attack via Improved Trip, if applicable).

Also, your psicrystal can make the touch attacks for you, if you like. Have it ride around on whatever constructs you've got out, to give them additional bludgeoning damage. Give it Mounted Combat for some oomph. Metamorphosis and Flyby Attack (as a hydra) for MORE oomph.


I wonder if Expanded Knowledge (Dimension Hop) is still the best option. It's a terribly useful power to have anyway.That it is, though it expends a feat. Research?


Really? Because they only have to move 5 feet to be out of its area. Sure, there are some OK features about it, like if your party Rogue is able to Sneak Attack them first, or if they fail the save and fall prone (unlikely at higher levels).Reflex saves tend to be low on most creatures (lower than your DC), and most big critters (and a lot of Medium and Small ones) tend to have fairly low Dex scores. You can aim for a humanoid/outsider/fey/monstrous humanoid/undead/etc's clothing and/or weaponry. Aim for boots. Aim for spell component pouches. Aim for a tower shield. Aim for a holy symbol. Aim for an ally's armor to assist with breaking out of a grapple or pin.

Also, a failed Balance check (and most creatures have very low Balance checks) means it can't move at all for the round...meaning most creatures have a 40-70% chance of failing, depending on their respective Dex scores.

It's slightly situational (but what power isn't?), but it does work against a lot of foes, and those that it's effective against it pretty much shuts down.

And you can aim the psionic grease into a larger opponent's space, and it has to make the saves and checks even if its space is larger than 10'.


Rods of Viscid Globs do all that, too. I still think they're better, once you can afford them.Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's still not a good option.


Assuming you can convince your DM that magic/psi transparency applies, yes, that looks like a must-have.Oh, it is. And it shouldn't be hard to do convincing; after all, the mechanics are pretty well identical as far as the doodad is concerned.

Draz74
2010-05-10, 07:25 PM
Anyway, if you want more info and advice on whatever direction you choose to go in, we'll be here, I'm sure.
QFT. Feel free to commandeer the thread back anytime. :)


It's not a huge deal so long as magic is treated the same way. It's the fact that magic is already horrifically powerful, whereas psionics is less so, and it's psionics that's getting nerfed into uselessness.
True, magic that (fluff-wise) does some kind of physical damage should still be subject to DR.


It has to work that way; there's no other way for it to work.
I could definitely imagine an interpretation "Those two powers don't have compatible area or target options, so you can't Link them."


Except that's how it has to work, RAW. Astral construct takes 1 round to manifest, which means you're manifesting from the beginning of this turn until the beginning of next turn; in order to manifest ecto protection as a swift action power on the same turn that astral construct is manifested, it has to affect a construct that isn't yet in existence (since you can't do so next round, because it's not the same round OR turn). Plus, it's treated as if it were an augmentation to astral construct already, as the pp cost of astral construct + ecto protection can't exceed your manifester level when it's done in that manner.
Hmmm, interesting. Never noticed before that Ecto Protection isn't really written clearly about when you can use that "swift action manifest" option. I'm pretty sure whoever wrote Ecto Protection didn't notice that the Astral Construct doesn't appear until the next round. Still, your interpretation makes more sense than anything else I can come up with ...

... but whether it works with Linked Power becomes a sort of a chicken-or-egg paradox, then. "I'm going to manifest Astral Construct this turn, so I can manifest Ecto Protection as a swift action ... but then I'm going to Link my Astral Construct power to that Ecto Protection ... but then I'm not actually spending an action on Astral Construct this turn, so Ecto Protection will now take a standard action after all ..."


It doesn't work at all under the way it was originally written, but the errata makes it a touch power as a swift action; you choose a target to touch (including yourself), and that target can make one or more touch attacks for 1 round (since there's no mention of discharging; augmentation increases this by 1 round per pp) that deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage, with natural attacks also receiving +1d8 bludgeoning damage when they hit (though not as touch attacks).
So, each round you want to actually deal damage with Hammer, you have to make a touch attack as a standard action?


Also, your psicrystal can make the touch attacks for you, if you like. Have it ride around on whatever constructs you've got out, to give them additional bludgeoning damage. Give it Mounted Combat for some oomph. Metamorphosis and Flyby Attack (as a hydra) for MORE oomph. Haha, hilarious image.


Reflex saves tend to be low on most creatures (lower than your DC), and most big critters (and a lot of Medium and Small ones) tend to have fairly low Dex scores. You can aim for a humanoid/outsider/fey/monstrous humanoid/undead/etc's clothing and/or weaponry. Aim for boots. Aim for spell component pouches. Aim for a tower shield. Aim for a holy symbol. Aim for an ally's armor to assist with breaking out of a grapple or pin.

Also, a failed Balance check (and most creatures have very low Balance checks) means it can't move at all for the round...meaning most creatures have a 40-70% chance of failing, depending on their respective Dex scores.

It's slightly situational (but what power isn't?), but it does work against a lot of foes, and those that it's effective against it pretty much shuts down.
Eh. Most of my arguments are more theory-craft than actual experience, but not my complaints about Grease. I had a Wizard who used it a lot ... generally with disappointing results. Every monster seemed to have some way or another to either leave the Grease area, or to be plenty nasty without moving a bit.

Sure, it's a handy thing to have around for out-of-combat utility or for escaping grapples, and that might make it worth taking as a Power Known, but we were talking about whether the OP should take it as an attack power. And for that, I think it's overrated.


Oh, it is. And it shouldn't be hard to do convincing; after all, the mechanics are pretty well identical as far as the doodad is concerned.

Eh, yeah, with a real DM I agree. I'm just not convinced it works in theory-RAW-land, like for online duels or whatever.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-10, 11:20 PM
I could definitely imagine an interpretation "Those two powers don't have compatible area or target options, so you can't Link them."Note the wording on the feat:http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/PagesfromDD35-CompletePsionic_Pa-1.jpg?t=1273549641
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/PagesfromDD35-CompletePsionic_Page_.jpg?t=1273549892It does say that if the targeting is incompatible to choose the targeting for the second power. The only time the second power fails is if conditions no longer make the second power possible (say, using psionic charm on a creature that moves out of range).


Hmmm, interesting. Never noticed before that Ecto Protection isn't really written clearly about when you can use that "swift action manifest" option. I'm pretty sure whoever wrote Ecto Protection didn't notice that the Astral Construct doesn't appear until the next round. Still, your interpretation makes more sense than anything else I can come up with ...

... but whether it works with Linked Power becomes a sort of a chicken-or-egg paradox, then. "I'm going to manifest Astral Construct this turn, so I can manifest Ecto Protection as a swift action ... but then I'm going to Link my Astral Construct power to that Ecto Protection ... but then I'm not actually spending an action on Astral Construct this turn, so Ecto Protection will now take a standard action after all ..."You're still manifesting ecto protection and astral construct in the same round, since you're spending pp on both and an action to manifest both; it's just that AC doesn't actually go off until next round (which it wouldn't anyway). So you're not stuck with a standard action/swift action loop.


So, each round you want to actually deal damage with Hammer, you have to make a touch attack as a standard action?No, because it lasts for 1 round/lvl after you've touched the target. It has to make touch attacks each round of the power's duration to deal bludgeoning damage. You just have to touch it at first in order to enable it to do so.

[Your turn] You manifest whatever power you like as your standard action. You then move up to Fighty McWarblade, and use a 2pp swift action to touch him, augmenting it for 2 rounds. He complains about your cold hands as an immediate action.

[His turn] He takes a move action to close with his chosen enemy, and makes a standard action unarmed strike..err...strike, attempting to hit the creature. If he hits, he deals an additional +1d8 bludgeoning damage to whatever strike he attempted unarmed.

[The wizard what done it's turn] The warblade, Fighty, couldn't hit the monster's AC last round, even on a natural 19, so the wizard decides to take pity on him and turns him into a roper, to give him touch attacks with Strength damage attached.

[Your turn, next round] "Y'know, whatever dude. Let the beatnick beatstick do his thing."

[Fighty's turn, next round] He couldn't hit the monster's AC, so he decides to make a full attack of touch attacks, dealing 1d8 bludgeoning damage per successful hit, along with whatever damage his strands manage. All told, he makes all 8 touch attacks, dealing 12d8 Strength damage and 8d8 bludgeoning, and you didn't have to touch him in uncomfortable places this round.


Haha, hilarious image.Ride 'em cowpoke.


Eh. Most of my arguments are more theory-craft than actual experience, but not my complaints about Grease. I had a Wizard who used it a lot ... generally with disappointing results. Every monster seemed to have some way or another to either leave the Grease area, or to be plenty nasty without moving a bit.

Sure, it's a handy thing to have around for out-of-combat utility or for escaping grapples, and that might make it worth taking as a Power Known, but we were talking about whether the OP should take it as an attack power. And for that, I think it's overrated.I dunno. Let's take a 20th level psion with 34 Int (18 + 5 levels + 5 tome + 6 headband, can get it higher due to race, PrCs such as crystal master, and age), and pit it up against an adamantine golem (CR 25, Dex 9, Ref +17). At this level, without any other boosts, the psion has a DC of 13 on his level 1 powers, so the golem will likely win the save (except on a natural 1), so that's a wash (though further optimization can get this considerably higher). However, it has a -1 to its Balance checks (no ranks, -1 Dex), so it has a 55% chance of being stuck where it is each round without even a 5' step, during which time you can continue to pile up more grease spells via Linked Power and Twin Power, if you like (with more chances of failed Balance checks). At any point, it could fail a save (5% chance), leaving it prone. Thus, you have a 60% chance of immobilizing the CR25 creature per power point you spend on psionic grease, and you can stack them up to double, triple, or even quadruple your chances of making that happen.

And a 5th level psion has as good a chance of making it stick as a 20th level one does.

The percentages work out; whether the dice follow the percentages, or the DM fiats the dice is another matter altogether.


Eh, yeah, with a real DM I agree. I'm just not convinced it works in theory-RAW-land, like for online duels or whatever.And DMs are really what matter, eh?

Draz74
2010-05-11, 02:24 AM
Note the wording on the feat: It does say that if the targeting is incompatible to choose the targeting for the second power.
I did note the wording. The part you're referencing comes after the stipulation, "if the power you manifest this round has no area or target," which is not the case for the examples you've been using.


The only time the second power fails is if conditions no longer make the second power possible (say, using psionic charm on a creature that moves out of range).
That's the only time the second power explicitly fails. But there are cases that the feat's wording frankly just doesn't cover.


You're still manifesting ecto protection and astral construct in the same round, since you're spending pp on both and an action to manifest both; it's just that AC doesn't actually go off until next round (which it wouldn't anyway). So you're not stuck with a standard action/swift action loop.
All right, you've convinced me on this one. I still say RAW doesn't back you up directly and explicitly ... but I can't think of any other interpretation that would make any sense. :smallsmile:


He takes a move action to close with his chosen enemy, and makes a standard action unarmed strike..err...strike, attempting to hit the creature. If he hits, he deals an additional +1d8 bludgeoning damage to whatever strike he attempted unarmed.
I can't find anywhere in the power's description that suggests it augments the damage of any attack that would already do damage.


The percentages work out; whether the dice follow the percentages, or the DM fiats the dice is another matter altogether.
Mmmm. I doubt the Golem's Balance check is a good representation of all high-CR monsters.

More importantly, there are plenty of nasty creatures that don't mind being immobilized by Grease, because they were just going to chuck spells at you from where they were standing anyway. I guess that was my main complaint about the spell when I used it a lot.


And DMs are really what matter, eh?
In actual play, as opposed to online duels? Yes. (On this Forum, for better or worse, both are viable and common contexts.)

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-11, 08:19 AM
I did note the wording. The part you're referencing comes after the stipulation, "if the power you manifest this round has no area or target," which is not the case for the examples you've been using....And what's the area and/or target for astral construct? Because I'm not seeing one. :smallconfused:


That's the only time the second power explicitly fails. But there are cases that the feat's wording frankly just doesn't cover.Generally, if something isn't explicitly called out, you use the standard rules to cover the rest. In this case, for normal manifestation. The feat does say that the Linked power goes off next round, and that if the two powers you manifest have the same area and/or targeting abilities, they're identical for both. If they don't, you get to choose their manifestation variables normally.

Not explicitly saying it doesn't fail doesn't mean it fails; it just means the second power goes off as normal.


All right, you've convinced me on this one. I still say RAW doesn't back you up directly and explicitly ... but I can't think of any other interpretation that would make any sense. :smallsmile:Damned straight. Or not, as the case might be. :smallbiggrin:


I can't find anywhere in the power's description that suggests it augments the damage of any attack that would already do damage.It's one of those "hold the charge" things, I think, as that's the closest I've found that actually matches. The only difference is that the power doesn't discharge, since you can use it multiple times over the course of one or more rounds.From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm):
Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

It's not perfect, but it's close.


Mmmm. I doubt the Golem's Balance check is a good representation of all high-CR monsters.Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination/hecatonceires.htm): +2 Dex, 0 ranks
Xixecal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination/xixecal.htm): +1 Dex, 0 ranks
Stone Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm): Dex -3, 0 ranks
Flesh Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm): Dex -2, 0 ranks
Iron Colossus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm): Dex -2, 0 ranks
Epic Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm): Dex +0, 0 ranks (Although they have fly speeds, they tend to be less-than-good, so force one to the ground and grease it. Can't fly if it can't move.)
Primal Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/elementalPrimal.htm): Dex -1, ranks 0
Genius Loci (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/geniusLoci.htm): Dex -2, ranks 0
Mithral Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm): Dex +4, ranks 0 (Entangle for a -2, then grease)
Adamantine Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm): Dex -1, ranks 0
Hoary Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm): Dex +4, ranks 0 (Force to the ground, entangle, then grease.)
Legendary Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm): Dex +2, ranks 0
Legendary Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm): Dex +4, ranks 0 (Entangle, then grease.)
Living Vault (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/livingVault.htm): Dex -2, ranks 0
Mercane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/mercane.htm): Dex +2, 0 ranks
Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore.htm): Dex -3, ranks 0
Neh Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm): Dex +4, ranks 0 (Dimension lock,, entangle, then grease.)
Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm): Dex +0, ranks 0
Elder Treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/treantElder.htm): Dex -1, ranks 0
Worm That Walks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/wormThatWalks.htm): Dex +2 or +4, ranks 0 (Entangle, then grease.)

Seems like a lot of epic creatures, actually. I'm sure there are lots more pre-epic.


More importantly, there are plenty of nasty creatures that don't mind being immobilized by Grease, because they were just going to chuck spells at you from where they were standing anyway. I guess that was my main complaint about the spell when I used it a lot.Then add psionic grease to your casting routine. ~50% chance of being immobilized doesn't seem at all bad to me, and you're gonna want to debuff the hell out of whatever you're fighting anyway; might as well make good use of your power points, since you don't get more post-epic (sans feats and multiclassing).


In actual play, as opposed to online duels? Yes. (On this Forum, for better or worse, both are viable and common contexts.)The point is that it's not an unreasonable assumption to make.

Vizzerdrix
2010-05-11, 09:02 AM
Hmm... Topic makes me want to make a warforged Shaper now. :smallconfused:

I just wish they got more low level powers :smallannoyed:

Optimystik
2010-05-11, 09:29 AM
Hmm... Topic makes me want to make a warforged Shaper now. :smallconfused:

I just wish they got more low level powers :smallannoyed:

AC is really the only one they need - it's just that versatile.

Constructor is also a solid PrC for an Erudite. They can learn AC without spending a feat, it's always a good choice for their UPD, and the free psicrystal can benefit from a number of shaper powers. If you pick Favored Discipline Erudite (Metacreativity) or Mantled Erudite (Creation) then you don't even have to wait to learn it.