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Marvel-dude
2010-05-10, 05:57 PM
The last time I asked about swordsages, I had yet to play them.
I have just returned from my game with a gestalt rogue/unarmed swordsage and honestly.. they are ridiculous powerful.
Or is it just me?

Who would be most powerful? Lvl 20 swordsage or a lvl 20 wizard? Because if I look at some of the lvl 9 maneuvers... they are insane :smalleek:

Not that I don't like it. I really love the extra d6's you pretty much gain every attack (I'm combat focused)
But my GM is kinda worried that my character will turn out to be too powerful

Reynard
2010-05-10, 06:03 PM
The Wizard. Unless you're using Diamond Mind, that special sword of theirs, win initiative and use it's timestop to get next to the caster and ready a maneuver to obliterate him. That one that lets you full attack twice in one round, for example.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-10, 06:08 PM
ooooh I really had my eyes on that ones. So beautiful :D
But seriously.. A maneuver that deals 100 points of damage? It seems kinda hardcore :\

sofawall
2010-05-10, 06:12 PM
ooooh I really had my eyes on that ones. So beautiful :D
But seriously.. A maneuver that deals 100 points of damage? It seems kinda hardcore :\

Yes, it deals 100 points of damage. At level 6, a Fighter with Power Attack, a lance, a horse and leap attack is doing over that on a full attack. About half that on a normal attack. More with Spirited Charge. PA=*2 2 handed, *2 more leap attack, so 24 power attack, *3 spirited charge makes 72 power attack, add a +1 weapon, 1 damage minimum from the lance and the +9 str possible at that point, all *3, and you're looking at 105 before the dice, on one of a possible 3 attacks.

Terazul
2010-05-10, 06:12 PM
Who would be most powerful? Lvl 20 swordsage or a lvl 20 wizard? Because if I look at some of the lvl 9 maneuvers... they are insane :smalleek:l

...Not really.

Man we hit 17th level, and get 9th level Maneuvers. Inferno Blast. Full Round Action. For a 60 ft radius burst centered on you, for 100 fire damage. With a reflex save for half.

Wizard gets Time Stop.

Mountain Tombstone Strike, we deal 2d6 Con damage. Hardcore!

Wizard gets Gate.

Powerful? Yes. Comparable to 9th level spells? Not a chance.

Edit: And really, 100 damage is not all that much. It's the "effects other than damage" maneuvers that are generally the real golden ones.

Pie Guy
2010-05-10, 06:13 PM
A standard fighter doing a full attack at level 20 will probably get 150 damage in a turn.

arguskos
2010-05-10, 06:15 PM
A standard fighter doing a full attack at level 20 will probably get 150 damage in a turn.
This is assuming they have only the most basic feat (Power Attack) and aren't doing something mildly good, such as sofawall's aforementioned lance charger. A Shock Trooper Power Attack Leap Attacker can rocket into the multi-hundreds without much effort by the mid levels, much less level 20.

Starbuck_II
2010-05-10, 06:17 PM
ooooh I really had my eyes on that ones. So beautiful :D
But seriously.. A maneuver that deals 100 points of damage? It seems kinda hardcore :\

Yes, but not as a standard action.

Doing 100 at level 20 is a requirement in a round for a lv 20. If you can't, you are doing something wrong.

Some like rogus must sneak attack to get 100, but they can at least.

Warrior types Power attack to reach it.

Casters can if they want do 100 (Metamagic shananigans) if they build for it. But they usually do debuffs, utility, Control, or save/die.

sofawall
2010-05-10, 06:17 PM
A standard fighter doing a full attack at level 20 will probably get 150 damage in a turn.

150? With 5 attacks, a +5 weapon, 3d6 elemental weapon damage, 5 collision, 21 str, and the weapon dice (2d6 greatsword) without even power attack or a charge, you're doing an average of 242. Without any tricks.

EDIT:
This is assuming they have only the most basic feat (Power Attack) and aren't doing something mildly good

Even without Power Attack, and without Haste, for that matter. I used Haste in the example because, really, why not?

Runestar
2010-05-10, 07:36 PM
150? With 5 attacks, a +5 weapon, 3d6 elemental weapon damage, 5 collision, 21 str, and the weapon dice (2d6 greatsword) without even power attack or a charge, you're doing an average of 242. Without any tricks.


I expect elemental resistance and dr to cut out a chunk of that damage.

So more likely, at lv20, a fighter with 30str or +15 damage with 2-handed weapon (base16, +5lv, +6enhancement, +2enlarge, +1inherent), greater weapon spec tree (+4 to-it, +6 damage), +5weapon deals 3d6+26 or 37 damage average. Throw in weapon properties like aforementioned collision or holy to improve the base some more.

Dr may subtract up to 15 from it, and you aren't expected to hit reliably with your iterative attacks, so you are looking at ~75 damage.

That's the nice thing about maneuvers - they might be inferior to a full-attack damage-wise, but dr applies just once, so they can still come out ahead.

Draz74
2010-05-10, 07:54 PM
Level 20 warblade: hits with Strike of Perfect Clarity.
Level 20 wizard: Casts Maw of Chaos.

Melee guy does: about 130 average damage?
Caster does: 1543.5 average damage. (21d6 damage for 21 rounds.)

Granted, the 130 damage happens all at once, and the 1543.5 damage happens over 21 rounds (73.5 per round). But still ... the caster can hit multiple targets and can also Daze the targets. There's just no contest here.

And no, Strike of Perfect Clarity isn't the best L9 maneuver. But here's the scary thing: Maw of Chaos isn't the best L9 spell, either! And I didn't really optimize this theoretical Wizard at all (his only caster level boost is an Orange Ioun Stone).

TL;DR: No, there's no way a L20 Tome of Battle character is anywhere near as powerful as a L20 full caster.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-10, 07:56 PM
ToB characters and 9th level maneuvers are powerful, but only if you compare them to unoptimized core characters - sword/shield fighters, core rogues who don't dual wield, monks, etc. They're solid Tier 3, where most core melee is Tier 4 and below (the Rogue is T3 because of Use Magic Device).

Private-Prinny
2010-05-10, 08:00 PM
Swordsages are very powerful, but there's no way they're even remotely on par with Wizards. However, using a Wizard as a measuring stick for power just leaves everything else looking sub-par. Use something like the Beguiler for a landmark instead.
The Wizard. Unless you're using Diamond Mind, that special sword of theirs, win initiative and use it's timestop to get next to the caster and ready a maneuver to obliterate him. That one that lets you full attack twice in one round, for example.^That doesn't work. The wizard can just cast Celerity.

Boci
2010-05-10, 08:03 PM
Swordsages are very powerful, but there's no way they're even remotely on par with Wizards. However, using a Wizard as a measuring stick for power just leaves everything else looking sub-par. Use something like the Beguiler for a landmark instead.^That doesn't work. The wizard can just cast Celerity.

Can't use celerity if you're flatfooted. Oh wait, yeah. Foresight.

In all seriousness, at level 20 a swordsage does have a chance at an arena battle against a wizard. He can move 50 feet and still have a full round action, so he could use time stands still + some boost, and the wizard will most probably not be able stop him if he hasn't acted yet. The swordsage has the default advantage in initiative (quick to act +5 and higher dex) but the wizard has many ways to boost this (humming bird familiar, scitter nerve and swapping scribe scroll for improved initiative already grant him +12), so either could start first.

However, at level 20 a wizard should be able to pre buff himself with as many hour / CL spells as he wants, so his will have impressive defences. In sort, the swordsage may win, but there are plenty of ways it won't, and even if it doesn, an arena match does not prove you are more useful than the wizard.

Runestar
2010-05-10, 08:49 PM
Warblade: avalanche of blades, converting all attacks to touch attacks via stormguard warrior to get a massive damage boost. Next round, diamond blade nightmare, easily dealing 1000+ damage.

But I am pretty sure the wizard can do better with wish or PAO or something. :smalleek:

The swordsage is a great character to play if you like a PC which can shine once in a while (dealing ~200 damage on a hit), but will not hog the spotlight (in that it cannot manage this every round). IE: pretty much the way every class should have been designed. :smalltongue:

Private-Prinny
2010-05-10, 08:55 PM
The swordsage is a great character to play if you like a PC which can shine once in a while (dealing ~200 damage on a hit), but will not hog the spotlight (in that it cannot manage this every round). IE: pretty much the way every class should have been designed. :smalltongue:

I agree completely. Personally, I think the Tome of Battle is quite possibly the best D&D 3.5 sourcebook.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-10, 08:59 PM
I expect elemental resistance and dr to cut out a chunk of that damage.

So more likely, at lv20, a fighter with 30str or +15 damage with 2-handed weapon (base16, +5lv, +6enhancement, +2enlarge, +1inherent), greater weapon spec tree (+4 to-it, +6 damage), +5weapon deals 3d6+26 or 37 damage average. Throw in weapon properties like aforementioned collision or holy to improve the base some more.

Dr may subtract up to 15 from it, and you aren't expected to hit reliably with your iterative attacks, so you are looking at ~75 damage.

That's the nice thing about maneuvers - they might be inferior to a full-attack damage-wise, but dr applies just once, so they can still come out ahead.

Shards of Granite... DR? What is DR? I've never encountered any DR...

for those who are unaware what I mean by this statement, allow me to elucidate and illuminate:

The feat Stone Power lets you trade off a -5 to attack for 10 temp hit points for a round. Basically, the first 10 damage, you don't take.

The feat Shards of Granite allows you to completely bypass all DR or Hardness while doing so.

Now that DR is no longer a problem.. proceed to curbstomp.

Boci
2010-05-10, 09:01 PM
I agree completely. Personally, I think the Tome of Battle is quite possibly the best D&D 3.5 sourcebook.

Mechanics wise I have to agree. Flavourwise, well ToB had decent flavour, but there were opther books that were more interesting, like ToM.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-10, 09:03 PM
Basically, if it had the word 'Tome' in its name, it was a worthy addition to 3.5.

demidracolich
2010-05-10, 09:05 PM
There are no melee classes made by WoTC in 3.5 that comes remotely close to a wizard. However, there is a homebrew called tome of war, where melee classes are made to be on the same level as an optimized wizard.
ie. samurai gets at will auto hit auto death attack and can sunder spells

Kylarra
2010-05-10, 09:06 PM
Basically, if it had the word 'Tome' in its name, it was a worthy addition to 3.5.Tome of Magic? :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-05-10, 09:07 PM
Tome of Magic? :smalltongue:

What? It had 1 really good class, one easily fixed class (just add a recovery mechanics) and one interesting and fixable class (albeit this one is harder).

Additionally it had some new monsters, organizations and feat that could be used even if the base classes weren't.

Mongoose87
2010-05-10, 09:09 PM
Tome of Magic? :smalltongue:

I'll destroy it! *fails his Truenaming check*

Awww...

Runestar
2010-05-10, 09:15 PM
Shards of Granite... DR? What is DR? I've never encountered any DR...

I was assuming a "run-of-the-mill" fighter who was built not using any ToB material. I suppose being able to overcome dr is a fair tradeoff for taking a permanent -5 to-hit (since 10 temp hp every turn is fairly negligible by that time), a better tradeoff compared to power attack at any rate. :smallsmile:

Otherwise, as a martial adept, getting 15 damage knocked off my attack isn't so great a deal when I am dealing 150+ damage on a single hit (so it applies only once, and the damage prevented is a very small part of the total damage dealt).

Conversely, as a fighter making 4-6 attacks each round, that dr15 can easily mean 60-90 damage being prevented if you don't have the means necessary to overcome it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-10, 09:24 PM
I was assuming a "run-of-the-mill" fighter who was built not using any ToB material. I suppose being able to overcome dr is a fair tradeoff for taking a permanent -5 to-hit (since 10 temp hp every turn is fairly negligible by that time), a better tradeoff compared to power attack at any rate. :smallsmile:

Otherwise, as a martial adept, getting 15 damage knocked off my attack isn't so great a deal when I am dealing 150+ damage on a single hit (so it applies only once, and the damage prevented is a very small part of the total damage dealt).

Conversely, as a fighter making 4-6 attacks each round, that dr15 can easily mean 60-90 damage being prevented if you don't have the means necessary to overcome it.

You mean there are fighters who don't use Efficent Quivers to store weapons of every conceivable composition to be able to bypass the DR of any conceivable opponent?

Runestar
2010-05-10, 09:30 PM
You mean there are fighters who don't use Efficent Quivers to store weapons of every conceivable composition to be able to bypass the DR of any conceivable opponent?

They can, but I fail to see how they can afford to enchant each and every one of these weapons at higher lvs. Greater magic weapon every one of them?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-10, 09:30 PM
They can, but I fail to see how they can afford to enchant each and every one of these weapons at higher lvs. Greater magic weapon every one of them?

Chain Spell + GMW = good times

TheStillWind
2010-05-10, 09:39 PM
Tome of magic is awesome because it has the murder of crows...

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-10, 09:48 PM
You mean there are fighters who don't use Efficent Quivers to store weapons of every conceivable composition to be able to bypass the DR of any conceivable opponent?

Uh...

Enchantment: Metalline (+2). Treats your weapon as whatever metal type is needed to bypass the DR of whatever you just hit.

Enchantment: Blessed (+1). Weapon is treated as Good Aligned and automatically confirms critical hits against evil opponents (as long as you don't put "Keen" on the weapon).

Yeah, doesn't get passed Chaos or Law oriented DR... but those are so rare as to be nearly meaningless.

Draz74
2010-05-11, 02:52 AM
Yeah, doesn't get passed Chaos or Law oriented DR... but those are so rare as to be nearly meaningless.

I thought so too, until I got TPK'ed in the Test of Might by a couple of CR 10 Slaad.