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Runestar
2010-05-10, 09:06 PM
Admitably, this was in part inspired by the necro'ed thread on highest cr monster. It got me thinking that comparing monsters by cr alone did not seem very meaningful. Rather, we should be comparing different monsters of the same cr and see how they stack up against one another.

I have noticed that even amongst monsters of the same cr, there exist statistical disparities, meaning one may easily be much stronger than the other.

For example, a storm giant is cr13. Using non-associated class rules, we can tack on 20 sorc lvs, which increases its cr by just 11 (rounding fractional cr up). Throw in practiced spellcaster, and we have a storm giant sorc20 at cr24, with caster lv24, and thus identical to a human sorc24 in terms of magical prowess in virtually every aspect, but with much superior stats from its 19 giant HD and better stat mods. This is how the storm lord in that past dungeon article should have been made, not sorc15 (at a yucky cr26 no less). :smallyuk:

Other interesting combinations - apply the dragon skeleton template from draconomicon to a very young white dragon. You get a 9-dragon HD undead for cr2. No other cr2 creature even comes close!

Of course, we can also make a monster much more challenging simply by playing around with its feat selection and giving it better choices.

So I am wondering, using the existing 3.5e creature creation guidelines, what is the most powerful (or optimized) monster you can come up with for its cr? Try to avoid infinite loops and such, since they are meant to actually be pitted against players. But as a player who DMs from time to time, I am still not comfortable with just adjusting a monster's stats arbitrarily on the fly, that and I just like to tinker with the system in my free time. :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-10, 09:32 PM
Well, there's always That Darn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) and its big sibling, That Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301).

obnoxious
sig

demidracolich
2010-05-10, 09:35 PM
Me and my friends created a 300 million year old 30 headed shadow dragon dracolich. It gives 30000 negative levels per breath. Not sure what cr it would be but something ridiculous I'm sure.

Milskidasith
2010-05-10, 09:36 PM
Revived Fossil Baboon has something around the lines of 29 HP, two attacks per round with +1d6 or 2d6 cold attached to powerful claws with a decent to-hit bonus, around 18 AC, and either DR 5 or DR 10/adamantine.

At CR 1.

Mongoose87
2010-05-10, 09:39 PM
Revived Fossil Baboon has something around the lines of 29 HP, two attacks per round with +1d6 or 2d6 cold attached to powerful claws with a decent to-hit bonus, around 18 AC, and either DR 5 or DR 10/adamantine.

At CR 1.
Does it have ranks in balance?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-10, 09:42 PM
Always start with Dragon... the most under-CRed monsters in D&D.

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-10, 09:45 PM
The Adamantine Horror is often bandied about as an example of a monster far, far more powerful than its CR would suggest. While fairly fragile, having Disintigrate, Disjunction and Implosion at-will at CL17 makes for a ludicrously overpowered CR9. It also happens to be small, smart, surrounded by many minions and quite good at hiding. Any 9th level party that doesnt get the surprise round on one of these things is in for at least a total loss of all magic items and buffs, and very likely a TPK too. Hell, according to the CR rules it should be a difficult but not badly life-threatening fight for a 6th level party. In actual fact, it will kill such a party in 2 rounds, tops.

Dragons in general are also pretty powerful for their CR, as long as they use their abilities properly and especially if you run into them on, say, an open plain.

Milskidasith
2010-05-10, 09:46 PM
Does it have ranks in balance?

Unfortunately no, but given it's DR, HP, and damage, the traditional tactic of "make it fall, then plink it" doesn't work, and it's AC is high enough it will deal more damage to the average fighter than the average fighter can deal to it even when it's on the ground.

Plus, it's CR 1. Four of the things would be a "fair" encounter against level 1 PCs. Just using one of them you'd have to hit it with two PCs worth of magic missiles and grease spells to kill it, and any non magic user is nearly completely incapable of damaging it for more than pitiful damage on good rolls.

Again, it's no "that damn crab" but it's pretty intense for CR 1; imagine if you used Undead Leadership to just get an army of those things.

EDIT: If you play in a variant where "athleticism" substitutes for all the myriad skill checks for doing related physical activities, it has a +8 racial bonus on balance and a few ranks, though, which makes it pretty fierce.\

EDIT X2: It's also fully capable of one shotting a wizard at level 1, to the point where you would need decent rolls for a cleric to bring him back up with a cure spell.

Eurus
2010-05-10, 09:48 PM
Unfortunately no, but given it's DR, HP, and damage, the traditional tactic of "make it fall, then plink it" doesn't work, and it's AC is high enough it will deal more damage to the average fighter than the average fighter can deal to it even when it's on the ground.

Plus, it's CR 1. Four of the things would be a "fair" encounter against level 1 PCs. Just using one of them you'd have to hit it with two PCs worth of magic missiles and grease spells to kill it, and any non magic user is nearly completely incapable of damaging it for more than pitiful damage on good rolls.

Again, it's no "that damn crab" but it's pretty intense for CR 1; imagine if you used Undead Leadership to just get an army of those things.

Granted, it's only got one hit die, so a 1st-level cleric could ruin one (and a 1st-level evil cleric with Improved Turning could command two of them), but if you're unfortunate enough to have a non-cleric as your party's divine caster, you're in serious trouble.

arguskos
2010-05-10, 09:50 PM
I always call for the Voor as a paragon of badassness at CR 4. It's a glass cannon, sure, but damn if it isn't lethal. 4 attacks at +10 each that deal 1d6+6 isn't that bad at CR 4. They have 20 ft reach, which IS bad at CR 4.

It's an Outsider too, and has some good energy immunities/resistances, it has SR, an annoying DR (5/good), AMAZING reach, Rend with it's claws, and 6 attacks total. :smalleek:

Milskidasith
2010-05-10, 09:52 PM
Granted, it's only got one hit die, so a 1st-level cleric could ruin one (and a 1st-level evil cleric with Improved Turning could command two of them), but if you're unfortunate enough to have a non-cleric as your party's divine caster, you're in serious trouble.

Yeah, I forgot, the one weakness it has is that it is a 1 HD undead with no turn resistance, so a cleric with a turn attempt that maxes out being able to turn 2 HD or less undead kills all of them in the radius instantly. Problematic, but that is it's only weakness in an athleticism variant game.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-05-10, 09:54 PM
Without tacking anything onto the base creature the Tsochar in my experience has been devastating.

CR 4 with 4 attacks, each one doing 1d3 dex damage each round at a DC 15, and if it hits with two of them it then gets to constrict for another 2d4 points of damage (that also poisons).

Then, if you are helpless (which in only a round or two it could simply from dex loss) it can then burrow into you. It can now attack with your body and takes only half damage from any attack. It can kill at any time it's host, and if the host dies the tsochar can cast any spells the body knew.

Get two of them, one holds you down, the other can punch right in.

arguskos
2010-05-10, 09:55 PM
Without tacking anything onto the base creature the Tsochar in my experience has been devastating.

CR 4 with 4 attacks, each one doing 1d3 dex damage each round at a DC 15, and if it hits with two of them it then gets to constrict for another 2d4 points of damage (that also poisons).

Then, if you are helpless (which in only a round or two it could simply from dex loss) it can then burrow into you. It can now attack with your body and takes only half damage from any attack. It can kill at any time it's host, and if the host dies the tsochar can cast any spells the body knew.

Get two of them, one holds you down, the other can punch right in.
Technically, it can only cast spells that the character has prepared, if they are a prepared caster. Just sayin'.

However, yeah, tsochar are pretty scary seeming. I still need to get some in action eventually. :smallsigh:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-10, 09:57 PM
Anything with non-associated Wizard levels...

Runestar
2010-05-10, 11:12 PM
Where's this Voor from? Sounds nasty indeed. :smallcool:

Also, I find that monsters with a fair amount of racial HD complement martial adept classes fairly well, assuming you rule that their HD counts towards improving initiator lv.

For example, an ogre warblade1 (cr4) can select up to 2nd lv maneuvers, similar to a warblade4. A single mountain hammer coupled with its good str and punishing stance can be scary indeed - you are looking at 6d6+10 damage, at +10 to-hit minimum (can be further improved between weapon focus and masterwork weapon) or burning blade+steel wind (5d6+13 to 2 PCs within reach).

Chokers with lvs in warblade or crusader are just nasty as well - it gets to consistently spam 2 maneuvers each round.

So what else have you all done to optimize your encounters to better challenge your players? :smallamused:

arguskos
2010-05-10, 11:14 PM
Where's this Voor from? Sounds nasty indeed. :smallcool:
The Lost Monster Manual (Ie. MM4, the one nobody seems to like).

The Voor is cruel beyond reason. It's actually caused more player deaths alone than any other single creature or event in anything I've DM'd has ever caused, dragons included.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-10, 11:18 PM
Where's this Voor from? Sounds nasty indeed. :smallcool:

Also, I find that monsters with a fair amount of racial HD complement martial adept classes fairly well, assuming you rule that their HD counts towards improving initiator lv.

For example, an ogre warblade1 (cr4) can select up to 2nd lv maneuvers, similar to a warblade4. A single mountain hammer coupled with its good str and punishing stance can be scary indeed - you are looking at 6d6+10 damage, at +10 to-hit minimum (can be further improved between weapon focus and masterwork weapon) or burning blade+steel wind (5d6+13 to 2 PCs within reach).

Chokers with lvs in warblade or crusader are just nasty as well - it gets to consistently spam 2 maneuvers each round.

So what else have you all done to optimize your encounters to better challenge your players? :smallamused:

That doesn't sound challenging so much as flat-out deadly. I'd hope he smashes an NPC first to demonstrate his power and give clever players a hint that they might want to figure out a way to disarm him.

I find metabreath feats can make a dragon even more under-CR'd. Since a dragon will generally only get 1-2 breaths in a straight fight with the PCs anyway, tacking on extra rounds really is all benefit for no cost.

obnoxious
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Draz74
2010-05-11, 02:34 AM
Obviously Pun-Pun, CR 1, is the ultimate winner.

Short of that, though ...

Take a Cleric 17. Give it +10 to every ability score, a permanent size increase, a buttload of extra skill points, full BAB, a good Reflex save, shapeshifting, SR 30, DR, a couple random immunities, at-will Invisibility, and constant True Seeing. Sounds like it should be at least CR 19, right? Nope, 16, apparently (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar). :smalltongue: And it's in the MM1.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-11, 02:42 AM
Obviously Pun-Pun, CR 1, is the ultimate winner.

Short of that, though ...

Take a Cleric 17. Give it +10 to every ability score, a permanent size increase, a buttload of extra skill points, full BAB, a good Reflex save, shapeshifting, SR 30, DR, a couple random immunities, at-will Invisibility, and constant True Seeing. Sounds like it should be at least CR 19, right? Nope, 16, apparently (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar). :smalltongue: And it's in the MM1.

you forgot Regeneration 10/Evil

Ravens_cry
2010-05-11, 02:55 AM
Without tacking anything onto the base creature the Tsochar in my experience has been devastating.

CR 4 with 4 attacks, each one doing 1d3 dex damage each round at a DC 15, and if it hits with two of them it then gets to constrict for another 2d4 points of damage (that also poisons).

Then, if you are helpless (which in only a round or two it could simply from dex loss) it can then burrow into you. It can now attack with your body and takes only half damage from any attack. It can kill at any time it's host, and if the host dies the tsochar can cast any spells the body knew.

Get two of them, one holds you down, the other can punch right in.
And it looks like like a clump of spaghetti dipped in snot and sprinkled with dandruff.
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6375/88126.jpg

Iceforge
2010-05-11, 03:25 AM
Does the Scarred Lands suppliments count?

If so, in 3.0 at least, it would have been the tempus twin.

I don't care how you build your character who is a Tempus Twin, you loose two levels, but gain the ability to be the same place double time, i.e. basicly you and your future self standing side by side, both able to take an action.

Furthermore, you are immune to time-effecting abilities, so if the enemy wizard casts time-stop, blast him to pieces and tell him thats not a fair ability to use.

You look like an ordinary human, so nobody expects foul play until your identical twin pops out of thin air besides you and starts blasting away too.

You can escape any hopeless situation by time-traveling for an unlimited period of time into the future: In the middle of a big battle and about to die? Transport yourself a year into the future: Sure, your side of the war may have lost by then and you might stand in a battlefield of ruins and decay, but you are alive.

As a Wizard, sure, your spells pr. day does not change, but you can cast 2 spells pr. turn

As a rogue, you can flank with yourself and lash out twice the number of attacks all dealing sneak attack damage due to flanking.

Doesn't really matter what class build you got: If it is good for any other race, its better for you as you gain the benifits twice, althrough at a slightly lower level if they got no LA

Runestar
2010-05-11, 04:36 AM
Obviously Pun-Pun, CR 1, is the ultimate winner.

Short of that, though ...

Take a Cleric 17. Give it +10 to every ability score, a permanent size increase, a buttload of extra skill points, full BAB, a good Reflex save, shapeshifting, SR 30, DR, a couple random immunities, at-will Invisibility, and constant True Seeing. Sounds like it should be at least CR 19, right? Nope, 16, apparently (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar). :smalltongue: And it's in the MM1.

Come on, we all know that classed npcs tend to be weaker than their cr lets on. :smallwink:

The Deej
2010-05-11, 05:36 AM
Well, there's always That Darn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) and its big sibling, That Pseudonatural Paragon Damn Crab! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57301).


I ran an epic one-shot vs That Damn Crab once, and quickly learned that over-templated monsters are easily over CR'd. Especially since it's low on HP. People half-heartedly threw together 30th level characters, and any single one of them could one-shot it. Granted, half my group is competent optimizers, but even the less-competent players wouldn't have had much to fret about.
---

I think an entropic reaper (LM) seems pretty tough. It's CR12, but has:

-19HD (142hp)
-DR10/cold iron and lawful
-fast healing 10
-SR 22
-whirlwind attack and cleave
-wields mighty cleaving scythe one size category larger
-and the entropic blade ability*

*DC 21 fort save or take -4 to hit, 50% miss chance on all attacks, randomly attack anyone near you (enemies or allies), and take 1 wisdom drain every round. You can suppress this for 1 minute with a DC 21 charisma check, or a stoneskin or shapechange spell. If your wisdom ever goes to 0, you vaporize. Only way to remove it is with restoration or heal, and then you still need a second restoration to recover the wisdom drain.

DarkEternal
2010-05-11, 06:15 AM
For it's cr(which I think is 4) a normal basilisk could rank very high on one of the more powerful monsters. It's gaze attack has a good chance of effectively ending any adventurer, even those with high fort saves for the levels you are supposed to be fighting them.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-11, 06:40 AM
Dragonkin, in the Draconomicon, has seven Monstrous Humanoid hit dice at CR 3, with no negatives to any ability score. Add eight levels of Sorcerer, the first seven are at half a CR per level, and the eighth is one more, so +4.5 CR rounded down to a CR 7 total, plus it gets the elite array.

Large Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian), Monstrous Humanoid 7/ Sorcerer 8, Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18, +7 natural armor, 20 ft. land speed, 40 ft. Good fly speed, 10 ft. natural reach. Give it Combat Reflexes, Large and In Charge, Practiced Spellcaster, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Versatile Spellcaster. Its spells should be Black Tentacles; Summon Monster III, Bands of Steel; Glitterdust, Web, Invisibility; Mage Armor, Shield, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Ray of Clumsiness. It would probably be wielding a masterwork longspear, and have a few spell component pouches.

He would act friendly toward civilized humanoids and especially adventurers, visiting towns posing as a merchant and sharing drinks and stories. He tries to find out all he can about local adventurers and what they may be up to, then uses flight and invisibility to follow them out to whatever monster lair they plan on delving into. He'll usually wait outside until they're finished, and ambush them in the night as they rest, already spent from adventuring and carrying all that heavy loot.

He starts by buffing himself with Mage Armor and Shield, then summoning a few Fiendish Apes. He'd summon two and send them in to attack while he summons a third, then drop a Black Tentacles (Grapple +20) on the PCs and fly in overhead. He would threaten the entire battlefield and they'd be slowed by the tentacles, so any movement would provoke an AoO and Large and In Charge would knock them back to where they started from. He could cast Bands of Steel on anyone who can grapple out of the tentacles or who manages to cast any spells. Any of them who wear medium or heavy armor wouldn't even have it on, so his apes would make quick work of them.

His goal of course is to loot their corpses and sell their possessions and earnings a few towns down the road where nobody will recognize any of it, or just sell it to the local tribe of orcs. Maybe he fancies himself a dragon and piles his coins in a cave up the mountain so he can sleep on them. Whatever his motivation, he certainly makes a challenging encounter for level 7 PCs.

Oslecamo
2010-05-11, 06:54 AM
Steel dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) takes the prize for CRs

4: 10HD, casts as sorceror 5
5: 13 HD, casts as sorceror 7
7: 16 HD casts as sorceror 9
8: 19 HD casts as sorceror 11
11: 22 HD casts as sorceror 13
12 : 25 HD casts as sorceror 15
13 : 28 HD casts as sorceror 17
15 : 31 HD casts as sorceror 19
16: 34 HD casts as sorceror 20
18: 37 HD casts as sorceror 21

Plus all the dragon goodies like flying, breath weapon, great stats, SR, fightfull presence, etc, etc.

hamishspence
2010-05-11, 07:33 AM
The Dragons of Faerun version of the Steel Dragon fixes some of the CR issues- it's still good, but not quite that good.

Cyclocone
2010-05-11, 07:46 AM
The craziest I can think of is the Malaugrym from Monsters of Faerun. I still don't know what the hell CL 20 Shapechange was doing on a CR 4 critter.

Another one that bugged me is the CR 9 Immoth from MM2. On the bright side, it's CHA isn't very impressive, so you might save against the two Flesh to Stones it casts in the first round.

Coplantor
2010-05-11, 08:05 AM
That dragon can fly through means of magic, turn into a 12 headed hydra and use a helluva lot of breath weapons.

PId6
2010-05-11, 08:23 AM
Elemental Weirds in MM2. 18th level sorcerer casting + free action at will divination effects without cost (including Foresight, True Seeing, Vision, Contact Other Plane, Greater Scrying, etc). All at CR 12.

Runestar
2010-05-11, 08:23 AM
For it's cr(which I think is 4) a normal basilisk could rank very high on one of the more powerful monsters. It's gaze attack has a good chance of effectively ending any adventurer, even those with high fort saves for the levels you are supposed to be fighting them.

The main problem with it and the medusa is that they both lack a strong melee attack, meaning they are virtually helpless against any party who opts to close their eyes to fight, though it will also be quite frustrating on part of the PCs. :smallconfused:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-11, 08:43 AM
There's the Ibrandlin in Monsters of Faerun, a 10 HD Gargantuan Dragon at CR 5 with 135 HP and saves of 14/7/7. Bite +18 (4d6+12), 4 claws +13 (2d8+6), and it has Power Attack. Taking a -2 to hit for +2 damage on each of those it would average 96 damage per round, whereas a level 5 Dwarf Barbarian with 24 Con raging and max HP per level only has 95 HP...

Oslecamo
2010-05-11, 08:47 AM
Elemental Weirds in MM2. 18th level sorcerer casting + free action at will divination effects without cost (including Foresight, True Seeing, Vision, Contact Other Plane, Greater Scrying, etc). All at CR 12.

It's a trap however. Elemental Weird can't move from the same place. The party can easily just go around her or take their time preparing some ofensive super combo. Facing it head on is suicide indeed, but this is an oponent that can't ambush you or appear out of a corner.

Runestar
2010-05-11, 08:50 AM
It's a trap however. Elemental Weird can't move from the same place. The party can easily just go around her or take their time preparing some ofensive super combo. Facing it head on is suicide indeed, but this is an oponent that can't ambush you or appear out of a corner.

All fear the 10-ft wide corridor! :smallbiggrin:

The cave troll in MM3 can be quite deadly as well. It is fairly fragile, but if it wins initiative, it can easily kill a PC in a charge (full-attack+rend+rake). It is probably balanced for its cr, but I just don't like the way it is designed as a glass cannon.

awa
2010-05-11, 05:42 PM
the weird is a big one from mm2 but i feel the adamantium horror needs to be mentioned as well.

Disjunction and implosion at will all for a low cr.