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Admiral Squish
2010-05-11, 04:35 PM
Okay, so, a game I was in just died leaving me with a lv. 2 darfellan dragon shaman who has yet to fully live up to her potential. Conveniently, I've stumbled across a game starting at lv. 2, in an aquatic setting. Now this seems perfect. BUT. It's gestalt. At first, I thought I'd just throw down a few dips to fill out the other side, but I realized not having a long-term plan could seriously mess me up. So, playground. What do you put opposite a DS to compliment it? Because I've been poring over my books ALL DAY and I can't think of a single thing. We've got high str, con, and cha.

Ferrin
2010-05-11, 04:40 PM
A crusader from ToB perhaps? Works out well with the supernatural martial leader thing the DS has but doesn't do to well by itself.

AmberVael
2010-05-11, 04:43 PM
For flavor, I'd recommend Totemist. It would also grant you good reflex saves, and high strength and constitution would work well for it.

Admiral Squish
2010-05-11, 04:49 PM
Oh, I forget to mention. The DM is letting me use my Dragon Shaman Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147604) for this. Doesn't change much, but makes it suck less.

Ernir
2010-05-11, 04:51 PM
Take something with powerful active abilities. DSes are mostly in their auras and other passive abilities (that breath weapon kind of stinks =/), you want something to use your standard actions on.

PId6
2010-05-11, 04:54 PM
Dragon shaman is a decent passive side to a gestalt, so something with good active abilities is nice. Warblade or crusader would definitely be powerful. Warblade has more disciplines and better maneuvers, but crusader has Cha-synergy going for it. Both would give full bab and better HD, as well as a nice complement of active abilities.

Another strong option is some kind of full caster. Sorcerer is nice and flavorful, giving strong attack spells to complement the dragon shaman's auras, along with Cha-synergy. You've less HD and bab than martial adepts, but you're a full caster, so whatever.

Edit: Didn't realize you're getting full bab already from the fix. Well that just makes full caster even more appealing.

Andy0
2010-05-11, 04:55 PM
I'm curious about the books available in the game, as well as what you want to accomplish with your character.

I wouldn't recommend wizard or sorcerer as you probably want some armor and skills.

If you were looking at melee, a ToB melee class could be a lot of fun. Especially if you use White Raven style maneuvers to boost your auras. Swordsage would round out your skills, improve your reflex saves and grant evasion eventually. (Personally I prefer warblades, d12 hd... yum)

Divine casting is, of course, deserving of a mention. Healing, improved tanking and lots of spells! Cleric, druid, etc.

Skillmonkey? Rogue is fun, factotum is funner (even without font of inspiration).

Or you could just play a kitchen sink and go Artificer. Utility belt, breath weapon, flight and auras? Yes please!

Good luck with the game!

Gnaeus
2010-05-11, 06:33 PM
Sorcerer all the way. It is thematically appropriate. Sorcerers with D10 HD are great. You will be solid all through your level range.

This would be my suggestion:
For your level 1 and 2 spells, pick ones with no somatic components, long durations, or ones with out of combat utility. Like True Strike, Benign Transposition, Mount, Identify, Blindness, and Blur. Then you can be an armored dragon shaman with full casting. By the time you can cast level 3 spells, you can afford a +1 twilight chain shirt with a 0 ACF.

Ryuuk
2010-05-11, 07:00 PM
Why not use the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)? The fluff is very similar to the Dragon Shaman, but its abilities are active instead of passive. You wouldn't exactly diversify, but it would give you a lot more option as regards to playing a character that worships dragons.

Tavar
2010-05-11, 07:02 PM
Incarnum could be fun. Sure, most of the abilities are passive, in that you don't really need actions to use them. But you can change up the abilities fairly easily, and it adds some really nice toys. I'd suggest using the Incarnate, since you're larger HD and BaB cover many of it's sins.

nedz
2010-05-11, 08:22 PM
Bard or Marshall if you really want lots of auras: since you like DS then (I'm guessing) you like passive(supporting) characters; if my guess is wrong then you should definately aim for an active class of your choice.

Akal Saris
2010-05-11, 08:52 PM
Ranger or rogue might be nice, it would give you all good saves and 6 or 8 skills/level.

Paladin also works off of a high str, con, and cha. Same for crusader.

And then for spell-casting, maybe dread necro or sorcerer.

Really, there's lots of good options, dragon shaman is nice for gestalt, especially your upgraded version =)

Godskook
2010-05-11, 08:52 PM
Why not use the Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)? The fluff is very similar to the Dragon Shaman, but its abilities are active instead of passive. You wouldn't exactly diversify, but it would give you a lot more option as regards to playing a character that worships dragons.

Seconding. In addition, you have two upgrade paths, the Dragonborn and the Syberis. With a Syberis DFA/Shaman, your primary attack is Breath of Tiamat, and Shaman takes a back seat for off-round support. With a Dragonborn DFA/Shaman, your late-game plan revolves around dropping meta-breaths to wipe the field and DFA takes back seat to the action. The Syberis is setting specific, though, so typically, its the Dragonborn that's easier to work with.

The best part about it is the fact that you *ARE* actually adding to your abilities in a way that's useful, due to the Shaman's meta-breath access and auras versus the DFA's breath-spam and invocations, as well as adding to your theme, of becoming a draconic power.

Pluto
2010-05-11, 09:21 PM
I'd lean toward Swordsage, Bard or Totemist for powerful offensive options, all good saves and lots of skill points/bonuses for those times when you aren't fighting things.

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-11, 09:49 PM
Seconding. In addition, you have two upgrade paths, the Dragonborn and the Syberis. With a Syberis DFA/Shaman, your primary attack is Breath of Tiamat, and Shaman takes a back seat for off-round support. With a Dragonborn DFA/Shaman, your late-game plan revolves around dropping meta-breaths to wipe the field and DFA takes back seat to the action. The Syberis is setting specific, though, so typically, its the Dragonborn that's easier to work with.

The best part about it is the fact that you *ARE* actually adding to your abilities in a way that's useful, due to the Shaman's meta-breath access and auras versus the DFA's breath-spam and invocations, as well as adding to your theme, of becoming a draconic power.

+1 to this. The Con SAD is also very nice.

Admiral Squish
2010-05-11, 10:21 PM
Okay, to respond to each.

To the variety of ToB suggestions: Yes, they're cool, yes they're powerful, but I really don't have time to go over and master a completely seperate set of rules for melee. I've tried a couple times, but right now, I don't have the grasp of it that would be necessary to really use it well.

Sorcerer: I don't really get along with vancian casting, so, though flavorful, that option's not so good for me.

Totemist: I'm considering that, but I have to go through the incarnum books a couple more times. I don't see a lot of really useful soulmelds on the totemist list. Especially ones that work well underwater. I could see it in the fluff, alternately training under her dragon patron and the tribal shaman.

DFA: No, sorry. The only thing the DFA has that's similar to the DS, crunch-wise, is a breath weapon. The DS has auras, has healing, has decent melee, heavier armor, Etc.

Paladin: DS feels to me like what the paladin was supposed to do, but replace the breath weapon with a smite.

I was considering ranger for a level or so, just to flavor in that 'hunter upbringing'. But it's really not where I'd like to go. Rogue requres too much sneaking. I'm looking for more of a frontline.

Thurbane
2010-05-11, 10:35 PM
Re: Sorcerer - Sorcerer isn't Vancian, it's just the opposite.

Also, how about Binder? Will add a lot of versatility to your character.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-11, 10:41 PM
I had alot of fun with a gestalt dragon shaman/battle sorcerer. . . (using the variant). . . it was tons of fun. . . pumped the sorcerous nature of dragons up in the fluff, to some dragon heritage feats. . . its was a blast. very rawr rawr boom. . .

Tavar
2010-05-11, 10:42 PM
Okay, to respond to each.

To the variety of ToB suggestions: Yes, they're cool, yes they're powerful, but I really don't have time to go over and master a completely seperate set of rules for melee. I've tried a couple times, but right now, I don't have the grasp of it that would be necessary to really use it well.

Tome of Battle is pretty easy to understand, much more so than Incarnum. You have stances and maneuvers. Stances, once chosen are set in stone, you can only have one active at a time, switching is a free action, and they can be up indefinitely. Maneuvers come in three stripes, boosts, strikes, and counters. Boosts are swift action, strikes are standard or full attack, and counters are immediate. What they do is pretty self explained. Some classes can change out maneuvers, and in the class entry it describes that process.

For Incarnum, I'd suggest going Incarnate. It'll allow you to cover a couple more of your bases, and it gives some nice bonuses, especially if you already have full BAB.



DFA: No, sorry. The only thing the DFA has that's similar to the DS, crunch-wise, is a breath weapon. The DS has auras, has healing, has decent melee, heavier armor, Etc.

Uhh....so? Why do you want to have the same things crunchwise in a gestalt?

The Glyphstone
2010-05-11, 10:58 PM
Was wondering the same thing - the last thing you want in gestalt is overlapping crunch, because of the limitations of action economy. You want crunch with synergy, but not identical abilities, which DFA/DS would have in spades.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-11, 11:12 PM
Re: Sorcerer - Sorcerer isn't Vancian, it's just the opposite.

No, Sorcerer is Vancian casting, it's just spontaneous rather than memorization. You still have spell slots and spell levels.

I will chime in with DFA being an awesome addition to this, with Warlock as an alternate, if you prefer. Glaivelock will give this character some really nasty damage output, even without Hellfire nonsense.

Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration will also crank out massive numbers of damage dice for the whole party, and also be exceedingly thematic. Toss on Snowflake Wardance, and wade into the fray.

reptilecobra13
2010-05-11, 11:20 PM
Want something to add some active power to a dragon shaman gestalt, but not wanting to have to learn a new set of combat rules? Want to have fun in melee? Add barbarian!

Godskook
2010-05-12, 12:26 AM
DFA: No, sorry. The only thing the DFA has that's similar to the DS, crunch-wise, is a breath weapon. The DS has auras, has healing, has decent melee, heavier armor, Etc.

That's the point, really. A Dragon Shaman's abilities don't really give him anything to do when his breath weapon is recharging, while a DFA's abilities are all at-will except for its semi-capstone breath effect(which is every other round). Auras/healing are all passive, and D-Shamans have less melee support than a monk if you strip the unarmed damage bonus from the class(Read: None).

-A Dragonborn version capitalizes on that fact by gaining a second re-charge based breath weapon via becoming dragonborn, and then stacks lots of metabreath feats on the build. With quicken breath, you can drop both the Shaman and Dragonborn breaths in a single round with unbeatable DCs, thanks to Heighten Breath. Thanks to Clinging and Lingering breaths, along with entangling exhalation on a setup DFA breath attack, whatever you target is dead, or should be. Now, normally, a D-Shaman wouldn't want to load down this much on meta-breath feats for one simple reason, he has nothing to do in his off-rounds, and while being a glass cannon is ok, being a 1-shot glass cannon that just missed sucks. That's where DFA comes in, and since DFA operates in the same general way as D-Shaman(Breath weapon FTW!), but does so far more consistently, you can now take metabreaths with impunity, knowing that you've got a solid back-up plan, should your meta-breath nukes not do the job for one reason or another(#1 being shooting the wrong target).

-Since you're more concerned with being a D-Shaman, I won't go into the Syberis build since the emphasis is on pumping Breath of Tiamat and then mitigating the costs, but it should still be pointed out that anything that says "+1d6 to your breath weapon" works on all your breath weapons, so equipments, feats, and other handy damage boosters become a bit more usable than a vanilla D-Shaman would be able to use them.

Tavar
2010-05-12, 12:30 AM
Note that he's using a Dragon Shaman fix, that gives Full BaB, Better NA bonus, faster+better aura progression, among other things.

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-12, 01:04 AM
The suggestion for barbarian isn't a bad one. They actually recommend it in the PHB2. But just a one level dip is really all you need, the Con bonuses from rage are very useful and so is the fast movement. Also, if you only take a one level dip like I suggested, you should consider the Berserker Strength rage variant from PHB2 as well.

EDIT: Also, since you mentioned wanting ranger for flavor, being a druid couldn't hurt either. Although really, the DFA is a solid choice. Again, CON synergy is your friend:smallwink:

Godskook
2010-05-12, 01:19 AM
Note that he's using a Dragon Shaman fix, that gives Full BaB, Better NA bonus, faster+better aura progression, among other things.

Having read the class, I'd still go with a Dragonborn DFA/D-Shaman focusing on metabreaths. Only thing I'd change is that now, I'd do it from the front lines, using a Freedom of Movement effect and Chilling fog to recreate the "Boss encounter hides in fog" trope as a PC, using his blindsense aura to make it work.

Thurbane
2010-05-12, 01:25 AM
No, Sorcerer is Vancian casting, it's just spontaneous rather than memorization. You still have spell slots and spell levels.
Interesting...I see your point, but I've never heard of spontaneous casters being described as Vancian before. I had thought the term was reserved for those who memorize. Live and learn, I suppose.

Draz74
2010-05-12, 01:44 AM
Interesting...I see your point, but I've never heard of spontaneous casters being described as Vancian before. I had thought the term was reserved for those who memorize. Live and learn, I suppose.

Originally, you are correct; Vancian referred specifically to prepared casting. But corrupting its meaning to include spontaneous casting has become rather widespread and normal.


I'm looking for more of a frontline.

Sounds to me like Knight is what you really want. Good ability score synergy with Dragon Shaman. Very tank-ish. (Crunch-wise, it otherwise has too much overlap with DS for my taste ... but it sounds like that doesn't bother you.)

Simba
2010-05-12, 01:53 AM
Battle Sorceror would be my fist choice, followed by the Dragonfire Adept. As both those choices are out and you are looking for frontline abilities I would recommend Crusader next, but that is out as well.

All this leaves you with Fighter, Bard, Knight, Barbarian and Ranger. Or a Paladin variant of your choice.

paddyfool
2010-05-12, 03:35 AM
If you don't like the standard arcane casting, how about a Wilder, for lots of active abilities and Cha synergy? Take the educated wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) variant if your DM will allow it, and go to town.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-12, 04:35 AM
*snip*
I was considering ranger for a level or so, just to flavor in that 'hunter upbringing'. But it's really not where I'd like to go. Rogue requres too much sneaking. I'm looking for more of a frontline.

Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) + Fighter Bonus Feats ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue), it's a Rogue with the Ranger skill list, you trade Sneak Attack for the Fighter bonus feat progression for more toe-to-toe and less sneaking around, and you can get all of the best Ranger class features via Rogue special abilities.

Sporge
2010-05-12, 05:46 AM
Personally I think sorcerer would be great along side it, though it really depends on a lot of things, like whether you plan to be melee or not, though you really can use spells to melee better and with gestalt the weaknesses the sorcerer has are basically covered up, except for reflex...

But draconic feats always add nice flavor, and depending on whether you can get into prestige classes, when I played a gestalt campaign we were allowed a prestige class but only one per level alongside a base.

Really there are a ton of things you could do...

Actually, Paladin would work alongside this pretty well, depending on what alignment you want there is a variant for all extremes, but a paladin of Bahamut might fit well :p

paddyfool
2010-05-12, 06:05 AM
You don't need the BAB since your Dragon Shaman variant is full BAB anyway, but if you want to tank and don't like ToB, why not go for a Knight?Extra points of awesome for dragon-like mounts at higher levels (a fell drake, for instance, or a dragon via the dragon cohort feat).

Otherwise, maybe Wildshape Ranger with a focus on reptilian forms, going into Master of Many Forms? It all depends on what you want to do.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-12, 08:41 AM
How could nobody have suggested Cleric yet?

Cloistered cleric (of a cause, purely for flavor reasons) gives you great, active abilities, great support abilities, and great skills. If you need a different set of skills (like sneaking and trap finding) just customize with domains. And trade one of your domains (knowledge, for instance) for the kick ass devotion feats from the Complete Champion.

The dragon shaman half of the gestalt already has the Zilla, might as well at the COD. This is a very strong choice that matches up with your abilities well. The only problem is MAD, but if you don't take many spells that require a save, this isn't a big problem. You can boost your wis in a variety of ways.

Amphetryon
2010-05-12, 08:48 AM
Because you're a Darfellan, and therefore have a bite attack already, I'll second the Totemist idea.

AmberVael
2010-05-12, 08:52 AM
Totemist: I'm considering that, but I have to go through the incarnum books a couple more times. I don't see a lot of really useful soulmelds on the totemist list. Especially ones that work well underwater. I could see it in the fluff, alternately training under her dragon patron and the tribal shaman.
It's a lot harder to see the true potential of soulmelds, in my opinion, especially when you're used to looking at things like magic. They're a lot more passive and less obvious in terms of what you can do with them. In terms of working well underwater... you could say the same thing about Dragon Shaman, really. Nothing is specifically geared towards working in that environment, but that doesn't make it not work there.

Darfellan gets a bite attack, which makes it work nicely with one of Totemist's main capabilities... namely getting tons and tons of natural attacks.
I recommend you look at Girallon Arms and consider how your attack potential goes up just when you bind those to your totem.

That's the biggest thing about Totemist. It can get lots of attacks. Add in things like Rapidstrike, Multiattack, and the improved versions, and you can turn into a devastating whirlwind of claws, teeth, and much much more.

WoodenSword
2010-05-12, 12:13 PM
Dragon Shaman//Marshal. Oh! The Auras you have!

But seriously, a Bard or a Dragonfire Adept would be a good move, depending on how you're playing it.

For a Tank-y DS, Paladin is always good, as is Knight and Crusader