PDA

View Full Version : Of all the films to inspire a game...



Boci
2010-05-12, 09:01 AM
Why did my PCs choose "Clash of the Titans"? They essentially want to go on a deity slaying campaign, similar setting to how the Athenians in the film perceived the world, but this time they don’t want to mess around slaying the mythological creatures linked to deities, they want to go straight to the jugular, being good if possibly and neutral at worst (not evil heroes), who want to free humanity from the deities of the land who have grown mean and uncaring in their rule.
Last session after we rounded up all loose ends of the aberration hunting game I'd been running, I gave them all a pre-genned character of 10th level and described over the course of 5 minutes how a deity killed them all. Strangely that was not enough for them.
So, the actual setting I have planned consists of 6 nations, each with their own deity. Natural disasters and magical bests are everywhere, as the deities turn their backs on their worshippers, concerned with the pursuit of pleasure. The PCs are some of the most powerful adventurers in the continent being level 20, and decide to lead a mutiny against the gods to replace them by drinking their blood and becoming deities themselves.

So, firstly the minor questions:
1. Does CR work at all at epic level, or do I just need to eyeball the creature’s states? (And don’t say CR is meaningless from the beginning. It’s a useful guideline, even at high levels).
2. Is it fair to tell casters they can only use the higher level spell slots for metamagicing pre-epic spells?

And the most important:
3. How do the PCs kill six gods? Once they kill one, wouldn’t the other 5 just gang up on them?

Edit: Deception is not an option. The party wants to start by desecrating a temple and swearing death on the diety.

Ranis
2010-05-12, 09:07 AM
Deities can see, hear, taste, touch, smell, and feel in a radius that generally approaches something around 10-25 miles. How do you plan on getting anywhere near that resembles close before that god completely hoses you? You don't, at least as far as regular D&D rules are concerned.

Give them a MacGuffin or really tone down the existing abilities and rules of deities in 3.5. Only way to really do it.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-12, 09:07 AM
And the most important:
3. How do the PCs kill six gods? Once they kill one, wouldn’t the other 5 just gang up on them?

Just an idea:

1) they deceive each deity, suggesting, bargaining, pretending to be their servant

2) they manage to persuade each deity that killing other deity could increase the deity power (if possible in your cosmology)

3) see the clash ain intervene in the proper moment of the fight

This could be very dangerous, but if you manage to kill a deity, you start on already enough badass I guess..


Just a note on the Clash: that film suck hard, but it's a great example D&D adventure, just because you see greek mithology monsters, a kraken and djinni in the same adventure.

Boci
2010-05-12, 09:26 AM
Give them a MacGuffin

Is that a physical embodiment of plot armour? If I'm going to do that, I would at least try and be creative and give them a demi plane where the gods cannot set foot.


or really tone down the existing abilities and rules of deities in 3.5. Only way to really do it.

Even if I just decide the dieties are simply creatures of a high CR (say, 26-30), it still does not solve tghe problem of kill one and the other 5 attack together.


Just an idea:

1) they deceive each deity, suggesting, bargaining, pretending to be their servant

As I edited in, this goes against what the party wants to do.


2) they manage to persuade each deity that killing other deity could increase the deity power (if possible in your cosmology)

This one has potential, I'll see what I can make of it.



3) see the clash ain intervene in the proper moment of the fight

Are you suggesting they engireer a battle between the 6 dieties? Interesting.

BobVosh
2010-05-12, 09:29 AM
So, firstly the minor questions:
1. Does CR work at all at epic level, or do I just need to eyeball the creature’s states? (And don’t say CR is meaningless from the beginning. It’s a useful guideline, even at high levels).
2. Is it fair to tell casters they can only use the higher level spell slots for metamagicing pre-epic spells?

And the most important:
3. How do the PCs kill six gods? Once they kill one, wouldn’t the other 5 just gang up on them?

1. Ish. Just as always.
2. Huh? Do you mean for improved spell capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity)? Because that is what it always does. Epic spells is based off of a skill, and only counts as a 10th level spell for various effects.
3. Depends on the gods, the DR, and any number of things. It is best if you make them corrupt, or better yet you kill one you get their power. Then you don't need to give them a potion/blood/whatever. Then you make it normal for them to die as you get their stuff, but you can only become one. The interesting part is to make sure they all get a killing blow.

If they are going godslayin' at 20 they better be low gods, which is probably what they are if they only have 1 country worshiping them. DR 1 makes it very possible to kill them. That said you could give your party DR 0 as the belief of the people are in them.

Alternative to going mildly highlander on it you make it so the gods were corrupted by a greater deity and prevented from doing their normal duties. They crave release from their current state and don't mind dying for their countries. However in order to do this properly they must appear as evil or truly righteous people would be incapable of killing them. So standard stuff, kill the gods, level up, find out the truth, go hunt Mr. Wannabe Over-deity.

unre9istered
2010-05-12, 09:32 AM
Make the gods distrust/hate each other. The first couple who are killed are "faking it to pull one over on the rest of us". After a one or two more die off the rest might be two afraid to face the group of godslayer. Or maybe by that point they can take two at once.

Also: hubris. The gods think themselves unassailable in the face of all evidence and refuse to run or seek outside help.

onthetown
2010-05-12, 09:33 AM
If they've only seen the film, you might want to read up on the actual myth of Perseus and see if you can take some elements from it to surprise them. They'll probably think that they expect everything because you're modeling it after the movie for them. Perseus' story was more or less about how he had to behead Medusa and bring it to a party to win the girl because he didn't have a horse to give her as a present, or some such thing. There are some other neat little adventures and elements you can get from the other Greek stories about heroes like Heracles, Achilles, and some more obscure ones that will take them a away from, "Prepare for Clash of the Titans!" and more to, "Prepare for the unknown!"

And to answer 3... If the remaining 5 gods hate each other, they wouldn't dream of working with each other because they think they'll be able to do it on their own. They're much better than their brethren; they can take on these wayward heroes without any help! Maybe, though, when they've killed close to all of them, the last 2 gods would want to team up. This makes it a little more difficult, but you don't have TPK from 5 gods at the same time.

The Rabbler
2010-05-12, 09:35 AM
Is that a physical embodiment of plot armour? If I'm going to do that, I would at least try and be creative and give them a demi plane where the gods cannot set foot.

a macguffin is something that allows the players to do what they need to do. their goal is to kill gods, right? give them each cloaks of permanent nondetection that not even a god can pierce. give them weapons/armor that can truly stand up to the might of the gods (this is the idea behind artifacts; let's say there are legends of weapons and armor that hold untold power. players now have to find the weapons and armor before they even have a chance.)

as for the demi-plane, that's what genesis is for, right?




Even if I just decide the dieties are simply creatures of a high CR (say, 26-30), it still does not solve tghe problem of kill one and the other 5 attack together.

gods are selfish. why would they help eachother take down a threat when the glory could be had by taking it down themselves? gods are the lords of the multiverse. why should they need to team up?

and besides, who ever said that the gods like eachother? they could all secretly be planning coups and the players just beat them to it. hell, you could give the PCs rewards from the gods for their aid.

mucat
2010-05-12, 09:37 AM
One very important thing to remember: you don't have to use the standard D&D rules for what a deity is and what he/she can do. Those rules were never intended to make the gods viable opponents for mortals.

So first, think ut what you want a god to be like in this campaign. Perhaps each one has tremendous power over one aspect of nature, but is vulnerable if you maneuver them into a situation where their sphere of influence does not apply. They may be powerful but not particularly intelligent (think of the Discworld gods if you're a Pratchett fan) or at least no smarter than a very smart mortal; that gives the players some chance of outthinking them. Or maybe their thought processes are so alien, or their "addiction" to whatever divine distractions have caused them to neglect their followers are so great, that they will not act in what seems to us a rational manner to counter the players' threat. What is happening may also be part of the "life cycle" of a pantheon; the gods grow dissolute and lose their fire over time, and must be destroyed and reborn in a more vital form; perhaps the gods themselves understand this, though they cling to this phase of their existence and will fight to prolong it.

None of this is meant to make the gods into pushovers, just to give reasons that the players might stand some ghost of a chance of defeating them. In any case, try to use whatever changes you make not just to downgrade the deities, but to make them memorable, interesting, and different from anything the players have thought of before..

JeminiZero
2010-05-12, 09:44 AM
So, the actual setting I have planned consists of 6 nations, each with their own deity. Natural disasters and magical bests are everywhere, as the deities turn their backs on their worshippers, concerned with the pursuit of pleasure.

Change the definition of "Diety".

This 6 nation systems sounds like each could be ruled by an "artifical" Diety, perhaps created/ascended with long forgotten magic during a Tippy-esque period of your world's history.

E.g. Once upon a time, a Caster ascended to unbelievable power and built a Nation state with himself as its proclaimed diety. He waged war to conquer 6 other nations. These nations of course allied against this common enemy, but all the while, they were researching how to replicate this Ascension process.

Somehow, all 6 succeeded at around the same time. The resulting gang of 6 "Dieties" managed to beat back the original and slay him. But at the end of the war they had all been corrupted by their power (possibly a psychological side effect of the ascension process).

They destroyed all traces of this process, so that they alone would enjoy is fruits. They also signed some sort of peace treaty with one another so that they woud not directly fight one another, instead waging war by proxy through their followers. Over the centuries they grew increasingly corrupt culminating in the present day sitution.

Essentially, while they are called Dieties, their stats are more akin to high level casters with a few extras (and an army of minions). The above is just one possible example story.

Theodoxus
2010-05-12, 09:50 AM
Isn't this the PC's problem? They want to kill the gods - let them try. If they succeed on the first, and don't have a contingency plan to deal with the other 5 coming down like a ton of bricks - oh well, they get the epic fight they were looking for, right?

Anonymouswizard
2010-05-12, 09:50 AM
Hell, you could give the PCs rewards from the gods for their aid.

"Thank you for slaying my rival. Now, just take this god slaying macguf..."
A unknown and forgotten god, who died when he was attacked by his own macguffin.

Yora
2010-05-12, 10:11 AM
a macguffin is something that allows the players to do what they need to do.
Actually, a MacGuffin is an object that everyone in a story fights for, but that has does not have any function within the plot at all. An expensive painting, crown jewels, a disk with senditive data, a suitcase with diamonds... Anything that the heroes want to recover, but that doesn't do anything that could be used by or against the protagonists. If it does do anything, it's not a MacGuffin.
But the term is used differently very often.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-12, 10:32 AM
Are you suggesting they engireer a battle between the 6 dieties? Interesting.

I am suggesting that the final battle (descriptive, I don't want you driven mad) among the deites could be the last "scene" and target of the quest.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-05-12, 11:39 AM
So, the actual setting I have planned consists of 6 nations, each with their own deity.

How many players are there and how fleshed out are their characters? If there are six, then maybe key each one to their own personal nation's deity...or at least have each deity be a sort of personal nemesis for each.

If they survive, have the final challenge of the campaign be something along the lines of rebuilding the world, undoing the havoc created by the gods. Most importantly, make sure some of the mortals resent them, testing the PCs to see if they don't become just as petty and spiteful as the gods they replaced.

The Shadowmind
2010-05-12, 12:12 PM
I say for the god killing part, give the gods a specific weakness and a more general but much harder to get weakness.

Like for the specific weakness, Baulder in the Norse mythology had a weakness to mistletoe, which Loki exploited to kill him with.

For the more general weaknesses, the weapon of another god is a likely one, an ancient artifact from before the gods, or the blood of an ancient creature that is the last of its kind are common ones.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-12, 01:01 PM
Actually, a MacGuffin is an object that everyone in a story fights for, but that has does not have any function within the plot at all. An expensive painting, crown jewels, a disk with senditive data, a suitcase with diamonds... Anything that the heroes want to recover, but that doesn't do anything that could be used by or against the protagonists. If it does do anything, it's not a MacGuffin.
But the term is used differently very often.

I think the proper term for MacGuffin that does something is a Plot Coupon, an object that enables the story to happen.

Mewtarthio
2010-05-12, 01:30 PM
I think the proper term for MacGuffin that does something is a Plot Coupon, an object that enables the story to happen.

Hang on, isn't a Plot Coupon just an object with vaguely-defined powers that the author can "trade in" later in the story as a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card for his characters? Or was that a Plot Voucher? Confound this newfangled literary slang!

Kurald Galain
2010-05-12, 01:36 PM
Why did my PCs choose "Clash of the Titans"? They essentially want to go on a deity slaying campaign, similar setting to how the Athenians in the film perceived the world, but this time they don’t want to mess around slaying the mythological creatures linked to deities, they want to go straight to the jugular, being good if possibly and neutral at worst (not evil heroes), who want to free humanity from the deities of the land who have grown mean and uncaring in their rule.

Well, the thing is...

...that in the movie a grand total of one deity is fought, for about three seconds of screen time, and it does not end up slain (incidentally, it also has a noticeable lack of titans, and certainly no clash thereof). So if the players want a "deity slaying" campaign, this movie doesn't seem to fit all that well.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-12, 01:37 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125112&page=14

That's an IC thread where all the angels are trying to do exactly what your PCs want to do.

Ed: Also - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8445106#post8445106

Vitruviansquid
2010-05-12, 01:38 PM
Imo, don't worry so much about the mechanics and just go with what feels epic.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-12, 01:42 PM
The proper source material for god killing would be the God of War trilogy. Besides, in the recent Clash movie, only hades is shown to be outright hostile (since his power didn't stem from love/worship). The rest of the gods seemed ready to compromise with the mortals until Hades pushed them away from the idea.

For a twist, you can make it so that when a god's killed, the aspects of their portfolio go out of whack. For example, if they kill a god of storms, the weather becomes more violent (as there's no longer a higher power to keep it in check). If a god of the seas is killed, oceans become more turbulent, and nautical wildlife either starts to die off or becomes corrupted.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-12, 02:00 PM
Hang on, isn't a Plot Coupon just an object with vaguely-defined powers that the author can "trade in" later in the story as a "Get Out Of Jail Free" card for his characters? Or was that a Plot Voucher? Confound this newfangled literary slang!

Curse you, Mewthario, for you have forced me to commit the unthinkable crime....a link to the source material. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotCoupon)

turns out a Plot Coupon is "A thing that a character needs to obtain in order to cash it in for a plot resolution."

So, in a god-slaying campaign, the god-slaying artifact would be the Plot Coupon.

JonestheSpy
2010-05-12, 02:03 PM
Sounds like the players have decided the campaign world and the story - tell one of them to run it.

SilentDragoon
2010-05-12, 02:35 PM
A bit problematic due to the no deception, otherwise I'd say tell them to engineer a chain of events akin to the Time of Troubles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_%28Forgotten_Realms%29) from AD&D. Could set up a campaign to develop and create a plot coupon that lets the PCs mimic one of the gods of trickery and 'attempt' the same heist Myrkul and Bane did, then during the subsequent fallout they can track and hunt down each and every one of the ones they wanted to off while the gods are stuck in their mortal forms. Bit out there, but could be fun. Would take a substantial amount of railroading/handwaving for the first part. Also not sure if the differences in pantheon/setting might cripple things as I don't play 3.5

krossbow
2010-05-12, 02:40 PM
Besides, in the recent Clash movie, only hades is shown to be outright hostile (since his power didn't stem from love/worship).



Bah, i wish people would get off Hades Back already; He actually was probably the most reasonable of his Brethren. Dude was about as Bland as they came, and got the *%&$ job of looking over the underworld.

God of war did a much better depiction; He mainly only took offense to you if you started messing with his brothers or families, while Zeus was the world's biggest Jerkhole.

Boci
2010-05-12, 02:42 PM
Thank you everyone for the great ideas. I think I am going to use the following:
Each time one of the 6 gods is killed, some of their divine energy is dispersed and the remaining deities can gather it, thus becoming stronger. This will allow the PCs to defeat the 6 in any order they want with an explanation as to why each deity becomes stronger as they do.
Each deity will also have 6 magical items, so each PC can take one. They will also be able to gather the blood necessary to do the ritual to make themselves deities (but this will only be possible once all 6 gods are dead).
So, the deities will be reluctant to act since each time one of them is killed the survivors become stronger, and the chance of gaining new followers. They are arrogant enough to assume that the PCs cannot kill them, and thus will try instead to direct them to other deities, and only fight to death once the PCs have bitten deep into their divine realm.
As for what the deities will be, just high CR creatures with some templates to give them the necessary spell like abilities such as plane shift and project image. As more dieties are killed and the PCs equiped themselves more and more with divine gear I will start adding divine ranks to them.

P.S. Just to clarify: By inspire, I mean the general idea of the movie, not the plot itself. What inspired them was the "Someday, someone will have to say enough is enough" speech.

Mewtarthio
2010-05-12, 02:43 PM
Curse you, Mewthario, for you have forced me to commit the unthinkable crime....a link to the source material. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotCoupon)

turns out a Plot Coupon is "A thing that a character needs to obtain in order to cash it in for a plot resolution."

You would link to TV Tropes? When TV Tropes itself admits that "The Well-Tempered Plot Device" (http://news.ansible.co.uk/plotdev.html) is the real source? For shame. :smallmad:

...Oh. It looks like I was confusing a Plot Coupon with a Plot Voucher. Still, I wouldn't say the Anti-God Weapon is itself a plot coupon. The players still have to succeed on their own merits, through their own hard work. The weapon just levels the playing field a bit. Lowe is complaining more about plot devices that let heroes ignore what should be the real struggle.