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View Full Version : Is there a chart for good ac by CR?



Sploosh
2010-05-12, 10:54 AM
I know AC is rather meh and seems to drop in value expontentially at higher levels without even taking into account things like power attack. I am still curious if there is a chart where there is a "good" or even simply descent AC level against monsters of a CR. I know there would always be outliers but that can't really be fixed.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-12, 10:59 AM
AC of monsters per CR or

AC of players per CR of monsters they're facing?

Eldariel
2010-05-12, 11:09 AM
What you want, of course, is 20 above the attacker's To Hit. However, since that's practically impossible to achieve, you'll have to make do with what you can get. The better question is how much resources you should invest in AC at any given level, where the answer may vary from "none" to "tons", depending on your class, build and support.

But alright, on level 1, AC 18-20 is achievable and very potent. Few physicals can hit that with any sort of consistency, and even casters have so few spell slots that they may occasionally be making physical attacks making it quite convenient. And this doesn't really increase by more than 1 until level 4 or so, though classes starting at lower point will reach the same ~20 too. Once WPL starts growing, you can get +1 to AC from various sources rather easily, enabling you to scale to ~23-26 as a warrior type. Wildshaping Druid can achieve ~27+ with either Monk's Belt or a level of Monk on 6, but that's another matter entirely.

On level 10, it's gonna be expensive to keep up with the AC growth; you'd want AC at least in the 30s to really gain mileage out of it, though Power Attack might make the AC slightly stronger. But like, Fire Giant's attacks start at +20 already and that's an unoptimized monster so you really need to scale your AC something fierce here to make it work out. Then it gradually scales to mid-40s where you'll probably end up in 20 if you are a warrior type and emphasize AC with a relevant portion of your wealth. This, of course, becomes something of a problem when many enemies on that CR have attacks with +40 or so as their To Hit bonus, but at least you can punish them for Power Attacking too much.

Mid 50s would be where you'd get relevant protection against non-Tarrasques' physical attacks, but when they have magical attacks and if desired, can disable your relevant AC sources with said magical attacks (Dispels on items), it's really just a losing proposition already unless you can gain it cheaply and without too heavy item reliance.

Zeta Kai
2010-05-12, 11:10 AM
I'd say that 15 + ECL is a good place to start, give or take +2. Of course, your mileage may vary quite a bit, depending on optimization, but in my games, I've noticed that this is the general case.

Starbuck_II
2010-05-12, 11:35 AM
I use-
Best (tanking) AC: 20+ 1.5 ECL
Good AC: 15 + 1.5 ECL
Average AC: 10+ 1.5 ECL
Bad AC: 5 + 1.5 ECL

Bad is just there to let you know you have bad AC then (20 AC is bad for level 10 for example). The Average AC is minimum even if you don't work at it, it must be. So aim for minimum 25 AC for level 10.

But you'll be hit often so Good is better to aim for. At level 10, you want 30 AC to be hit not often.
But if you want you rarely be hit aim for Best AC. At level 10, you want 35 AC (although Best isn't easy to aim upon).

These are ideals of course.

Rixx
2010-05-12, 11:39 AM
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-creation

It's for Pathfinder, but it should still work with what you're probably using it for.

Runestar
2010-05-12, 07:14 PM
What you want, of course, is 20 above the attacker's To Hit.

What's to stop the attacker from going all-out power attack then, if he is going to hit only on a natural 20 anyways? Though I concede there is probably no non-metagamey way of concluding this. :smalltongue:

What I think DMs can do is to use abilities which degrade a monster's to-hit, such as power attack, expertise or even fighting defensively to lower its to-hit to the extent where the monster has just a fairly good chance of hitting the player, rather than missing only on a 1. What constitutes chance of success varies, but I will probably aim for ~50-65%. This doesn't let the players feel that all the effort they have put into boosting their AC was for squat.

Say a tarrasque could opt to PA for 25, reducing its attacks to +32 (assuming it took improved multiattack). Against a fighter with an AC of 43, it hits on a roll of 11 or more. But between its 6 attacks, some will hit, some will miss, so the fighter still feels as though his AC has been useful in some sense.

Of course, if they choose to forsake their AC and decrease it all the way to 0 or even negative... :smallbiggrin:

Sitzkrieg
2010-05-12, 10:51 PM
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5527/touchnormalacro0.jpg
This chart is used in a few guides on the Wizards threads. It shows average monster AC from a large selection of monsters from a digital database. EDIT: I just realized OP is looking for good AC for a PC against a monster. Oh well, I will leave this here anyway.

Eldariel
2010-05-13, 04:25 AM
What's to stop the attacker from going all-out power attack then, if he is going to hit only on a natural 20 anyways? Though I concede there is probably no non-metagamey way of concluding this. :smalltongue:

I personally don't mind it PAing for full if it only hits 2.5% of the time between my 50% miss chance and it needing 20 to hit :smallwink: One hit is unlike to kill me, even if I don't have Elusive Target. I mean, the reason it wouldn't PA for full otherwise is 'cause that gives it higher expected damage, so any drop in the expected damage is all good in my books.

Eurus
2010-05-13, 05:47 AM
This chart is used in a few guides on the Wizards threads. It shows average monster AC from a large selection of monsters from a digital database. EDIT: I just realized OP is looking for good AC for a PC against a monster. Oh well, I will leave this here anyway.

Heh. That touch AC is hilariously bad. I don't think I ever realized just how few monsters actually get AC from anything besides natural armor...

Eldariel
2010-05-13, 05:52 AM
Heh. That touch AC is hilariously bad. I don't think I ever realized just how few monsters actually get AC from anything besides natural armor...

The Touch AC is dropping but the expected difficulty is going up! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX8yrOAjfKM#t=3m20s)