Elan's Father?

[Zwums]

Could he be? The general from the most recent strip?

[Eloel]

Yes. Obligatory white text

[licoot]

Yes he could be, but I don't think he is, because its not like hes in charge, the dragon is

[paladinofshojo]

Yes he could be, but I don't think he is, because its not like hes in charge, the dragon is

First off, the dragon is just a figurehead
Secondly, no one ever said that Elan's father was in charge, he was a "cold and ruthless general" not a lord or ruler

[Shale]

So? Elan's father is a general. Generals run armies, not countries.

[Faleldir]

And now you can be sure he isn't, because you guessed it.

[Swordpriest]

I, personally, think it's Elan's dad. :smallsmile:

However, just to throw yet another theory out there :smallbiggrin:, what if it's another of Elan's dad's sons? There's no reason he couldn't have sired more kids after splitting with Elan's mother, and if his next kid was born immediately afterwards, he'd be only a year or two younger than Elan and Nale. As Elan's half-brother, he'd surely note the family resemblance and might be curious enough to spare him on the possibility he's a relative.

(I don't believe it, this guy's assurance is speaking of someone in a vigorous middle age, but it's still a remote possibility.)

[Zwums]

I forgot to add, and do you think he is?

[Zwums]

I, personally, think it's Elan's dad. :smallsmile:

However, just to throw yet another theory out there :smallbiggrin:, what if it's another of Elan's dad's sons? There's no reason he couldn't have sired more kids after splitting with Elan's mother, and if his next kid was born immediately afterwards, he'd be only a year or two younger than Elan and Nale. As Elan's half-brother, he'd surely note the family resemblance and might be curious enough to spare him on the possibility he's a relative.

(I don't believe it, this guy's assurance is speaking of someone in a vigorous middle age, but it's still a remote possibility.)

THAT is an interesting theory, and with the sheer volume of side plots and subplot elements in the series it wouldn't surprise me.

[Murdim]

Could he be? The general from the most recent strip?
_ Mean Fighting Guy (a.k.a. Elan's father) is "a cold and ruthless general", according to Nale. General Bullrush is, well, a general, and sounds quite cold and ruthless in an honorable, non-Stupid-Evil way.
_ There must be a reason why Gen. Bullrush was called in the throne room. And it probably has something to do with Nale.
_ Gen. Bullrush somehow knows that he'll be able to convince the Lizgreaper that Elan's not Nale. Hmmm.
_ The lizardman-dominated Empire of Blood rose two years ago after a war. Human-dominated Tyrinaria fell about two years ago, probably after some lizardmen-versus-humans war. Nale fought for, then betrayed the Empress of Blood. In Nale's flashback, Mean Fighting Guy had a red-and-black banner with a big T on it. The absolute ruler of Tyrinaria was called Tyrinar the Bloody. There might be a story linking all those events. Also, freelance warlords aren't known for their loyalty, in real life as well as in fiction.

Make what you want out of it.

[Lycan 01]

I think he's Elan's dad. I don't think he's Lord Trynimar or whatever, but I could be wrong. And one thing's for sure - he's a cool antagonist. :smallbiggrin:

[NerfTW]

_ Gen. Bullrush somehow knows that he'll be able to convince the Lizgreaper that Elan's not Nale. Hmmm.

This isn't a given. For all we know, he's equal to or superior to Malack in the chain of command. Nothing says Malack is the only one behind the throne. Therefore, he might know he can protect Nale because he has enough of a say to override Malack, who might just have a personal vendetta or was bluffing. He might just want Nale alive for another reason.

(Although I still think he's their father, I doubt he knows this is Elan yet.)

[Gift Jeraff]

The main problem with the nation seen in Nale's story being Tyrinaria is that Nale is still a young kid in it, whereas Tyrinaria was around several months prior to the start of the comic. Of course, it's always possible to retcon older stuff (pretty much everything before Team Evil's dungeon crawl/the OOTS's redesign can be retconned without much harm done) and disregard that image, and maybe Tyrinaria lasted longer than most Western "nations."

[The_Weirdo]

Also, freelance warlords aren't known for their loyalty, in real life as well as in fiction.

Freelance anything aren't known for their loyalty. It's how we survive. Take this from me, a freelance translator.

[NerfTW]

The main problem with the nation seen in Nale's story

We don't see a nation in Nale's story. We see a General and an army. Major difference.

[Gift Jeraff]

We don't see a nation in Nale's story. We see a General and an army. Major difference.
Well, I meant the major problem with the idea that the army in Nale's story was under the nation of Tyrinaria. Whether or not it actually was under any nation at all is irrelevant.

[pinwiz]

nope. it's roy in a clever disguise freeing them from capture.
:smalltongue:

[NerfTW]

Well, I meant the major problem with the idea that the army in Nale's story was under the nation of Tyrinaria. Whether or not it actually was under any nation at all is irrelevant.

It's relevant in that the "nigh unstoppable army" Nale mentions could have eventually managed to hold territory and become Tyrinaria only recently, then disbanded for whatever reason. Since all we see is a marauding army in the flashback, it's not unlikely that they spent almost 20 years as nomads only to form a country at some point. It can still be Tyrinar leading both.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's relevant in that the "nigh unstoppable army" Nale mentions could have eventually managed to hold territory and become Tyrinaria only recently, then disbanded for whatever reason. Since all we see is a marauding army in the flashback, it's not unlikely that they spent almost 20 years as nomads only to form a country at some point. It can still be Tyrinar leading both.
Ah, that makes sense.

[apenpaap]

I don't think he's Elan's father, as all the other important people in this empire seem to be reptiles, while Elan and Nale seem to be mammals.

[Zwums]

I don't think he's Elan's father, as all the other important people in this empire seem to be reptiles, while Elan and Nale seem to be mammals.

Yet the General seems to be missing a tail...

[apenpaap]

Yet the General seems to be missing a tail...

Yeah, you're right. It could be tucked under his shirt or cut off in some war though.

[Ferena]

Only a little, but probably important detail: The helmet of Gen. Bullrush looks very different compared to the one we know from Elan's father. But this could evolved from the art-update way back.

Nevertheless my bets are also on Bullrush being Elan's dad.

[slayerx]

This isn't a given. For all we know, he's equal to or superior to Malack in the chain of command. Nothing says Malack is the only one behind the throne. Therefore, he might know he can protect Nale because he has enough of a say to override Malack, who might just have a personal vendetta or was bluffing. He might just want Nale alive for another reason.

It is also possible that general bullrush knows how to pull the strings on the dragon queen... she may be a figurehead but she is still the ruler and what she says goes... if she demands the human not be harmed Malack may have trouble doing otherwise

I feel this is somewhat supported by how Malak still needed to have the empress approve the bounty and couldn't just do it himself and get on with it... he must maintain the appearance that she is the one in charge and that means doing as she commands... the key to his power is being able to easily manipulate her... the general may have found a way to do the same and thus share some of the power in the kingdom


_ The lizardman-dominated Empire of Blood rose two years ago after a war. Human-dominated Tyrinaria fell about two years ago, probably after some lizardmen-versus-humans war. Nale fought for, then betrayed the Empress of Blood. In Nale's flashback, Mean Fighting Guy had a red-and-black banner with a big T on it. The absolute ruler of Tyrinaria was called Tyrinar the Bloody. There might be a story linking all those events. Also, freelance warlords aren't known for their loyalty, in real life as well as in fiction.

I don't recall anything that said Tyrnaria was ruled by humans...
Furtharmore, just because a dragon, a kobold, and a Lizardman make up 3 members of the power structure does not mean the kingdom is "dominated" by lizardman... humans seem to make up a proportionally larger part of the population and nothing is shown to be holding them back... there is NOTHING saying that lizardmen and Humans can not live and rule together

I don't think he's Elan's father, as all the other important people in this empire seem to be reptiles, while Elan and Nale seem to be mammals.
Case and point to above, so far everything makes general bullrush to be human and he seems to be pretty important... not only is he missing a tail, but his helmet is round which is a bad fit for the triangular head of reptilian people


Only a little, but probably important detail: The helmet of Gen. Bullrush looks very different compared to the one we know from Elan's father. But this could evolved from the art-update way back.

Or he could have changed it in the last 20 years...

[Deth Muncher]

Or he could have changed it in the last 20 years...

WHOA. Let's not be hasty now. Everyone knows people only change outfits if it's explained ONSCREEN. See: Elan, Haley.

:smalltongue:

[Dr.Epic]

I'm not convinced. The giant wouldn't do something that obvious.

[Murdim]

Freelance anything aren't known for their loyalty. It's how we survive. Take this from me, a freelance translator.

Huh ? Where did my English skills go wrong enough to deserve this kind of remark ? :smallfrown:

[doodthedud]

Normally I'd go with "GAA!! STOP THE RANDOM SPECULATION WITH LITTLE TO NO EVIDENCE!!!! ESPECIALLY WHEN ALL OF YOUR EVIDENCE COMES FROM YOU MISREADING THINGS!!!11!!!1!"

However, this time I think the crazy people have a point. This person commands at least enough power to keep Elan and his allies form harm, and seems to be Lawful. He is definitely in command of at least the palace's soldiers, so he could easily be a general if he commands armies outside it too. With a figurehead leader, there are likely several top leadership positions vying for control. The lizard priest could be simply one of many.

For once, the random forum speculation is actually a reasonable argument.

[pinwiz]

For once, the random forum speculation is actually a reasonable argument.

......
:smalleek:

Quick, we need moar crazy!!! He's Xykon in disguise trying to get the golden muffin from the Empress who's actually girard in disguise!!!!!

:smallbiggrin:

[spectralphoenix]

Well, if that's not crazy enough for you...

What if Helmet Guy is Haley's father?

A five-foot bull rush isn't that hard, especially if he's picked up some serious STR enchancement while pretending to be a fighter type. He only pushed her over the ledge after he knew V could save her. Being imprisoned in or around Tyrinar would give him a good motive to engineer an overthrow. And he certainly knows how to run a con.

The armor might even be an illusion to work with his image as a warlord while giving him the freedom of movement to fight as a rogue. And anyway, his current position probably involves more social skills than combat prowess. Lastly, he probably figures he can convince the Empress to free Haley, which maintains his standing (since he caught the prisoners,) and allows him to talk with her afterwards.

I mean, if anything making him Elan's father seems a bit too obvious, and none of the unaccounted-for Linear Guild members readily fit the description.

[doodthedud]

He's Xykon in disguise trying to get the golden muffin from the Empress who's actually girard in disguise!!!!!


There we go. Thanks. Now we just need a comment about how all the bad guys are really evil and the good guys are diabolical racist fiends.

[Threeshades]

Well we got the answer now.

[Optimystik]

And now you can be sure he isn't, because you guessed it.

Thank you for doing your part to put the final nail in this little meme's coffin.

[kpenguin]

Congratulations, Zwums! Totally accurate prediction!

[someboddy]

I just registered to say that that last comic actually made me run around my house laughing... luckily there is no one else here right now, cause that could be awkward...

[Kish]

Thank you for doing your part to put the final nail in this little meme's coffin.
You're living up to your screen name.

[Souhiro]

I can say: 723: THE BEST STRIP, EVER

[Zwums]

So I'd say he's Elan's father...

Yay! I feel somewhat successful!

[Coplantor]

I just registered to say that that last comic actually made me run around my house laughing... luckily there is no one else here right now, cause that could be awkward...

You were lucky, I'm at the office...

[Cizak]

What I wanna know now, how old is he? Elan and Nale is 22, if I remember correctly. So how old is Tarquin? He's got grey hair, but no spots on his face or wrinkles under his eyes, the usuall sign of old age in OOTS.

[Scarlet Knight]

He's not old.

He's distinguished.

[thumbprince]

nope. it's roy in a clever disguise freeing them from capture.
:smalltongue:

I thought it looked like Roy's father in his original disguise.

[doodthedud]

Huh. The day I side with the normal forum-goers and it's right... I feel like some prophecy has been fulfilled...somewhere.

[factotum]

What I wanna know now, how old is he? Elan and Nale is 22, if I remember correctly. So how old is Tarquin? He's got grey hair, but no spots on his face or wrinkles under his eyes, the usuall sign of old age in OOTS.

That would be because he isn't old. Chances are he's in his 40s and either had white hair to start with or went prematurely grey. Also, wrinkles under the eyes and liver spots have only been seen on people are probably in their late 50s at least (Old Blind Pete, Shojo, Roy's Dad etc).

[doodthedud]

That would be because he isn't old. Chances are he's in his 40s and either had white hair to start with or went prematurely grey. Also, wrinkles under the eyes and liver spots have only been seen on people are probably in their late 50s at least (Old Blind Pete, Shojo, Roy's Dad etc).

Parents seemed young at the time. I'd say the dad was in his early to mid 20s and was a young military genius. being in his late 40s or perhaps early 50s could easily cause white hair, without yet having the nasty wrinkles.

[Vemynal]

He's not old.

He's distinguished.

and I'm not drunk

I'm eccentric XD

no but i agree with you, though I think part of it might be the assumption in the 'what class is he' thread that he has a high charisma and thus is 'good looking'

[doodthedud]

and I'm not drunk

I'm eccentric XD

no but i agree with you, though I think part of it might be the assumption in the 'what class is he' thread that he has a high charisma and thus is 'good looking'

Many people get white hair LONG before they get any noticable wrinkles.

[The_Weirdo]

Huh ? Where did my English skills go wrong enough to deserve this kind of remark ? :smallfrown:

They didn't, I was taking a jab at my own profession. Sorry. *Hugs*

[TreesOfDeath]

http://spendmoneyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/MilkFather_Fullpic_1.gif

[olthar]

does this mean elan's mother has a goatee?

[Optimystik]

You're living up to your screen name.

I try :smalltongue:


http://spendmoneyonline.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/MilkFather_Fullpic_1.gif

Considering that you can't get milk from bulls, I'd be freaked too...

[licoot]

guess i was... wrong:smallfrown:

[Gagundathar]

There is a discussion on this going on elsewhere and the same surmise was made there.
This is a great development.
I really love how The Giant plays around with the concepts of alignment.

[Dr.Epic]

I'm not convinced. The giant wouldn't do something that obvious.

Well now I feel dumb.

[slayerx]

Parents seemed young at the time.
Ya you can totally tell by the shine on his helmet

[Da Beast]

Booyah! Just two days ago I turned to my friend and was like "I bet this new guy is Elan's dad" and now I'm right. I am so awesome :smallcool:.

[Kyos]

Wait... Star Wars line, gray hair? It's not Tarquin, it's Grand Moff Tarkin!

[doodthedud]

Ya you can totally tell by the shine on his helmet

Oh shush. Fine, the mother looked young at the time and I'll assume they weren't grossly mismatched in age. (like 10-20 years)

[doodthedud]

Wait... Star Wars line, gray hair? It's not Tarquin, it's Grand Moff Tarkin!

No, silly, his name is Graham Moss Tarquin. :D

[ZakRenning]

I may be the only one thinking "Did Nale give false testimony to Elan about their father's personality?" he just seems too happy... I think there is more to it than simply being "Evil"

[The Rose Dragon]

I may be the only one thinking "Did Nale give false testimony to Elan about their father's personality?" he just seems too happy... I think there is more to it than simply being "Evil"

Evil can also be happy, quirky and delightful, you know. Those are not Good-exclusive behavior and moods.

[SadisticFishing]

Evil can also be happy, quirky and delightful, you know. Those are not Good-exclusive behavior and moods.

True, but it's very rare in LE. Very, very rare. Hard to be a harsh executioner when you love life so much.

[The Rose Dragon]

True, but it's very rare in LE. Very, very rare. Hard to be a harsh executioner when you love life so much.

Not really. Even Evil can love their own life. You don't have to love the lives of others to be happy.

[Hawkfrost]

Elan seems quite pleased to discover who his father is, unlike a different blond protagonist whose reaction to the same was "Nooooooooooo!" :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Not really. Even Evil can love their own life. You don't have to love the lives of others to be happy.

Even evil guys can love the lives of other close to them (Savage Species) while hating and committing atrocities against others more distant from them- "the enemy".

[Underground]

I see no reason why he shouldnt be Elan's father.

That means he's lawful evil.

For that he's strangely cheery.

[Alias]

Many people get white hair LONG before they get any noticable wrinkles.

I'm getting very grey headed and I'm only 35 - not a wrinkle in sight. :(

[SadisticFishing]

Not really. Even Evil can love their own life. You don't have to love the lives of others to be happy.

Oh, definitely agreed there. happy Evil is common enough.

But.. Goofy LE? That one's.. new to me. Happy and goofy are two different things.

[hamishspence]

The Troika in Buffy The Vampire Slayer seemed a bit obsessed with power- a desire to rule the world- yet were also goofy nerds.

The Mayor also came across as Lawful, yet affable, charming, occasionally a little goofy.

Doctor Evil in Austin Powers, Dark Helmet in Spaceballs- all could be argued as LE and goofy.

[Obrysii]

The Troika in Buffy The Vampire Slayer seemed a bit obsessed with power- a desire to rule the world- yet were also goofy nerds.

The Mayor also came across as Lawful, yet affable, charming, occasionally a little goofy.

Doctor Evil in Austin Powers, Dark Helmet in Spaceballs- all could be argued as LE and goofy.

The Master from Doctor Who was goofy yet arguable Lawful Evil.

[hamishspence]

Good point. LE is not all that restrictive.

[SadisticFishing]

Wanting to rule the world is not inherently lawful.

Dr. Evil is unaware of his goofiness though. He's not particularly affable, he's just played by a silly Canadian ;P

Charming Lawful Evil and quoting Star Wars lawful evil are different things.

And more importantly, note that I didn't say that goofy LE doesn't exist, I said that it's very. Goofiness is a decidedly un-LE attribute - but life is about exceptions, no?

[hamishspence]

Being very organized is though. The Mayor had a To-Do list-

"Meeting"
"Become Immortal"
"Pick up laundry"

And so on.

A person such as a general, might manifest Lawfulness in the form of organization, respect for the chain of command, and so on.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Master from Doctor Who was goofy yet arguable Lawful Evil.
I would think the argument for CE would be stronger than the argument for LE when it comes to the Master, at least in his most recent incarnations.

[Niknokitueu]

Considering that you can't get milk from bulls, I'd be freaked too...
"Hey, Jethro, I been milkin' that there male cow fer hours now, and have only got a cupful"
<urgh!>

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Coplantor]

The Real Unlikely Truth About Elan's Dad

I'm not a regular around this part of the forum, but it seems like the giant ussually fools people and everyone's theories of what is going to happen will eventually be proven wrong, so I bring you an over the top theory about elan's dad wich I dont think deservs it's own thread considering that this one is still around.

Elan is Elan's Dad!

After some life twisting event and time travel... From an alternate dimension!

Now it all makes sense!

[doodthedud]

I'm getting very grey headed and I'm only 35 - not a wrinkle in sight. :(

*hugs* it'll be okay :(

[Scarlet Knight]

"Hey, Jethro, I been milkin' that there male cow fer hours now, and have only got a cupful"
<urgh!>

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

"Well, boy, tha' sure explains why he's been a'followin' you all day..."

[Yukitsu]

"Hey, Jethro, I been milkin' that there male cow fer hours now, and have only got a cupful"
<urgh!>

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Ironically, it's worth more money. >_>

[Darcy]

Ironically, it's worth more money. >_>

Ironically nothing. Compare the average price of a carton of milk to that of a protein shake.

[RMcMurtry]

Elan's mother ("nicest person in the village") married this guy at one point. That he's more than your typical cold calculating LE general was predictable. (not that I did, but she had to like something about him)

[Shale]

For that matter, he divorced her and left her alone with their son instead of doing something stereotypically evil-overlord like forcing her to stay with the army, taking Elan against her wishes or just going with divorce-by-murder.

[Asta Kask]

Elan's mother ("nicest person in the village") married this guy at one point. That he's more than your typical cold calculating LE general was predictable. (not that I did, but she had to like something about him)

Not if Elan got his intelligence from her.

[RMcMurtry]

Not if Elan got his intelligence from her.

She'd go for him because he's got a great body and lousy personality? So did Miko, and Elan had no trouble figuring out she was mean.

[Xavon]

I may be the only one thinking "Did Nale give false testimony to Elan about their father's personality?" he just seems too happy... I think there is more to it than simply being "Evil"

You're not the only one. Though I am more thinking, 'why did we believe Nale in the first place?'

[Alias]

Y'know, why does he have to match Nale's alignment. Why can't he be true neutral?? (Exactly between his sons).

[Herald Alberich]

You're not the only one. Though I am more thinking, 'why did we believe Nale in the first place?'

There wasn't any reason not to, before now. Having not seen Tarquin's personality, only his helmet, "cold and ruthless" warlord seemed to fit the bill.

[krossbow]

Before the last two panels, He actually did match the cold and ruthless personality. He flung a woman out of a window in order to Test someone's identity (as well as forcing his opponent to surrender), and He's working for a Despotic ruler who enforces slavery and devouring people alive.


Its REALLY hard to claim how nice of a guy you are when your upholding the rule of someone who devours those that displease them (and yes, she obviously does eat humans; she even states that its a lunchtime thing)

[Terrace]

{Scrubbed}

[Zeful]

Not if Elan got his intelligence from her.

Except we'll never know that because Nale kept smacking Elan in his underdeveloped Baby skull, possibly resulting in brain damage.


{Scrubbed}.
You are aware we have a Report button on every post? There's no need to call out the OP in such a manner. It's really rude.

[Nimrod's Son]

You are aware we have a Report button on every post? There's no need to call out the OP in such a manner. It's really rude.
Not to mention wrong. When the OP posted the topic, we didn't know the identity of the general, so it's a perfectly valid question.

[factotum]

Y'know, why does he have to match Nale's alignment. Why can't he be true neutral?? (Exactly between his sons).

Because it said he was Lawful Evil in strip #50! Why is that so hard to comprehend? We have in-comic evidence that he's Lawful Evil, and precisely nothing he has done in the whole two strips he's appeared in since then has contradicted that--as pointed out many times, being genre savvy and maybe even likeable is not the sole preserve of non-Evil alignments.

[brionl]

Because it said he was Lawful Evil in strip #50! Why is that so hard to comprehend? We have in-comic evidence that he's Lawful Evil, and precisely nothing he has done in the whole two strips he's appeared in since then has contradicted that--as pointed out many times, being genre savvy and maybe even likeable is not the sole preserve of non-Evil alignments.

Right. That's not even Nale or Elan's story, they said "Duh, I dunno" and we got the third person omniscient flashback from the author where Tarquin's lawyer said he was lawful evil. So it's not Nale being an unreliable narrator, the Giant said so.

[Rabitldr]

Hullo

Been reading the strip for years, first time I wanted to post...

My name IS Tarquin, roleplayer forever, wargammer, LARPer, you name it I've probably done it and while I'm in my thirties I get accused of being in my mid 20's.

I've been a GM since 92, running games at cons since 93', I tell a lot of stories more or less...I wont tell you how many original star wars toys I have...

I have to ask...where did the idea of aparently putting me (if I may be so bold) in this strip?

[Rabitldr]

...I'm far too tired...

I should also mention I've been the the Allied High Command of World War II Online for almost 5 years...this is the net, I am a Net General :P

[RMcMurtry]

I think Tarquin's going to prove to be a lot like Belkar--definitely evil, with an overlay of an amusing personality.

[Vemynal]

I'm getting very grey headed and I'm only 35 - not a wrinkle in sight. :(

my friend is 21 and he's getting al these white hairs in with his black hair. not that his hair is white yet but its like little white dots all over his head...completely skipped gray O.o

i tease him is cuz he got married XD


I think Tarquin's going to prove to be a lot like Belkar--definitely evil, with an overlay of an amusing personality.

and thus he wil join the order in belkars place!

i kid i kid

[Trebuchet]

Obviously Tarquin is Elan's father. Elan believes him, and even said it was worth growing up fatherless just for that reveal. If Elan thinks that exposition made for a better narrative, it must be true.

As for Tarquin being cheery and LE, why not? I imagine he likes his job, is happy to have said his favorite line at last, and maybe is excited about capturing Elan and his friends. It is a very good day for him.

[Zwums]

Not to mention wrong. When the OP posted the topic, we didn't know the identity of the general, so it's a perfectly valid question.

Why thank you! I am no troll. I think.

[Zemsel]

So far, none of Tarquin's behavior has really shown that he can be called remotely "good".

He might seem chummy and charming to Elan, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's like that twenty-four-seven.

[Kish]

Why thank you! I am no troll. I think.
No, you're a pixie.

[Jair Barik]

No, you're a pixie.

Shouldn't really expand upon this any further in this thread if you don't want Roland locking you down. Links cutiously to the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45659)

[Coidzor]

As for Tarquin being cheery and LE, why not? I imagine he likes his job, is happy to have said his favorite line at last, and maybe is excited about capturing Elan and his friends. It is a very good day for him.

I imagine the novelty of meeting his long-lost son isn't entirely lost on him, either. I mean, evil people generally have emotions too. Unless they're not people. In which case why were we calling them evil people?

Especially since Elan seems to be aware of Nale so he's a potential lead on Nale. So, y'know, he gets to meet his long lost son who he might actually like and find out info about his other son who he put out a bounty for.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I once played this lawful evil cleric Christof. Now he had a wife and children and he cared about them very much.

But he was devout in his belief only the iron grip of tyranny could bring order and security to the land.
Now he [with the rest of the party] was trapped on an island for five years. An island out of sync with the material plane.

When he finally returned home, he was cheerful. A merchant greeted him warmly,
"Lord Christof you've returned and you brought slaves!"
My character didn't remember him but he was happy to become and have someone welcome him. So he returned the greeting and asked about his wife and family.
"Oh you have nine suitors at your door step trying to court your widow"
"Nine suitors! that makes feel kinda proud"
"Their used to be 12 but your wife killed 3 already"
"Thats my lover"
[his wife was also lawful evil]

Anyway being evil does not always mean you forsake everything.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasLovedOnes

[ZakRenning]

Yea I was definantly not saying that all evil people have to be always evil. I was just stating that I had never even quetioned what Nale said earlier.

[Coidzor]

Yea I was definantly not saying that all evil people have to be always evil. I was just stating that I had never even quetioned what Nale said earlier.

Well, we haven't had to deal with a whole, whole lot of unreliable narration. Nale's misdirections to the party are always bald-faced to the audience, IIRC.

Which is the pertinent strip anyway? I need to refresh my memory on what was actually said.

[Nimrod's Son]

Which is the pertinent strip anyway? I need to refresh my memory on what was actually said.
This one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) Note that the flashback to the courtroom is not narrated by Nale, so it's not just his word that Tarquin is Lawful Evil.

I am also at a loss to explain why so many people think Tarquin is such a nice guy. Like somehow those last two panels override everything else we've seen of him.

[Kish]

Nale's misdirections to the party are always bald-faced to the audience, IIRC.
Nothing Nale said was bald-faced until pretty recently.

[doodthedud]

So far, none of Tarquin's behavior has really shown that he can be called remotely "good".

He might seem chummy and charming to Elan, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's like that twenty-four-seven.

leaders need good charisma :)

[ZerglingOne]

This one. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) Note that the flashback to the courtroom is not narrated by Nale, so it's not just his word that Tarquin is Lawful Evil.

I am also at a loss to explain why so many people think Tarquin is such a nice guy. Like somehow those last two panels override everything else we've seen of him.

Oh my... This strip may have a LOT more planning than any of us were aware of... Look at the panel when Elan tells Nale that he's a bard. That is a look of total shock on Nale's face and is right after Elan says it would create dramatic tension. If someone you'd just met said exactly what your mother or father would say in the same situation, would you not have that exact look on your face?

Edit: Mind you, the Giant probably had Tarquin mapped out from this exact moment, name, personality, appearance, and everything else.

[Bharg]

I cannot wait to see Tarquin's evil side. He appears to be kinda lighthearted, but that does not really fit to evil nor lawful characters...
Maybe he is just a jolly tyrant not caring about the life of others...

[hamishspence]

Makes me think of this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html

only reversed:

"He's a Lawful Evil General! He's not supposed to be jolly! Why is he jolly?!"

:smallbiggrin:

[schwarzc]

well, shojo seemed lawful stupid at the beginning, too ....

[factotum]

I cannot wait to see Tarquin's evil side.

You've already seen it...throwing Haley out of a window ring any bells?

[Calemyr]

This whole thing reminds me of Greed from the Full Metal Alchemist manga/animes. Greed was definitely evil, but he was also the embodiment of greed. As a result, he was also extremely protective of his subordinates because, as he put it, he wouldn't let anyone harm something that was his. This created a very un-villainlike sense of care and loyalty within his faction that surprised enemies of his from all points on the alignment wheel.

It also reminds me of a line from Terry Pratchett's book The Light Fantastic. To paraphrase it: "All the demons of hell dream of conquering the world, collecting and torturing the souls of humanity. This is because souls and the world are valuable to them. The gray behind those eyes would trample it all without even affording the dignity of wondering what it had stepped in."

[AstralStorm]

Well, if he is Elan's pa, he might be a blackguard or some other fun fighter class that also uses Charisma. (and less Intelligence).
And the evidence is for it.

Oh, and to remind you: Evil people still (selfishly) love their own children.

Edit: This could imply extra drama in the story, like him being a former Paladin and fallen hard, then divorced.

[Sanguine]

Well, if he is Elan's pa, he might be a blackguard or some other fun fighter class that also uses Charisma. (and less Intelligence).
And the evidence is for it.

Oh, and to remind you: Evil people can still (selfishly) love their own children.

Fixed that for you. Broad blanket statements are usually a good way to be wrong. For instance some evil people might consider there progeny a threat. Or any number of other things.

[AstralStorm]

Oh right, this reminds me I should've added this image link here:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/DnD_InWorksApril_Blackguard.jpg

Does this guy look similar to someone in OotS? :)

Edit: That's Wizard's artist vision of a Blackguard. Rich stealsborrows ideas from the best?

[The Pilgrim]

Last strip gives some more clues about Tarquin's alignment.

- I have so much to show you, my boy. I think you'll really like what I'm doing here once you get to see...

Uhm, this may imply that Tarquin is really focused in creating and developing the Empire of Blood, up to a personal level (what I'm doing). That would point to a Lawful alignment.

And the fact that he is building is an Empire with a slavery-based economy, and proud of it, should point definitely to Evil.

Not like it's not obviously already since he was explicity labeled as LE, the colour scheme, Red Dragoness, and stuff...

[Shale]

Also, Tarquin only has circumstantial evidence of his son's alignment (he saved his friends, and was raised by his mother), so he might be assuming that Elan swims in the deep end of the alignment pool.

[dehro]

uhm
...I'm gonna throw something out there...

"have you thwarted any villains yet?" and "well you're still young"

they sound to me like a father who is eager to see his son do well..and in a lawful good way..or at least a good way, if not explicitly lawful...
whether he does so to set him off for epic confrontation with Nale or not is debatable and matter of wishful thinking...I'm leaning towards a no, on that score. (it just doesn't feel that way)

if that's the case...
does that compute with being lawful evil? and if that doesn't compute...does that mean he has changed allignment? or was he ever lawful evil and has nale just made up stuff or been mistaken?

and whatever your opinion on this matter is... how does that affect his chances of being a blackguard?

[Asta Kask]

Tarquin: "Strike me down with all your power and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete!"

[Kish]

uhm
...I'm gonna throw something out there...

"have you thwarted any villains yet?" and "well you're still young"

they sound to me like a father who is eager to see his son do well..and in a lawful good way..or at least a good way, if not explicitly lawful...
whether he does so to set him off for epic confrontation with Nale or not is debatable and matter of wishful thinking...I'm leaning towards a no, on that score. (it just doesn't feel that way)

if that's the case...
does that compute with being lawful evil? and if that doesn't compute...does that mean he has changed allignment? or was he ever lawful evil and has nale just made up stuff or been mistaken?

and whatever your opinion on this matter is... how does that affect his chances of being a blackguard?
He wants to see his son do well as a protagonist. He is aware that successful protagonists thwart villains, but apparently not aware that anyone in the area fits the definition of "villain." I'll still be surprised if he's not both ruthless and Lawful Evil, and as long as he's evil, he might be a blackguard.

[hamishspence]

He wants to see his son do well as a protagonist. He is aware that successful protagonists thwart villains, but apparently not aware that anyone in the area fits the definition of "villain."

Hmm- does this mean he might not believe himself to be a villain?



I'll still be surprised if he's not both ruthless and Lawful Evil, and as long as he's evil, he might be a blackguard.

Seems possible. There is precedent in the splatbooks for blackguards who believe they are not evil- Gareth Cormaeril, in Waterdeep: City of Splendors, and Michael Ambrose, in Tome of Magic.

It takes a lot of self delusion for them to reach Blackguard, while still unwilling to admit, even to themselves, that they are Evil, though.

[LaLitrus]

Seems possible. There is precedent in the splatbooks for blackguards who believe they are not evil- Gareth Cormaeril, in Waterdeep: City of Splendors, and Michael Ambrose, in Tome of Magic.

It takes a lot of self delusion for them to reach Blackguard, while still unwilling to admit, even to themselves, that they are Evil, though.


Umm... it's Elan's father we're talking about. Elan once believed he was invisible because he was naked. If we take their similar personalities and extrapolate a little and add a few decades, I have no problem seeing Tarquin as the kind of person who would believe that of himself. Unfortunately, strip 50 says otherwise.

[AstralStorm]

Seems possible. There is precedent in the splatbooks for blackguards who believe they are not evil- Gareth Cormaeril, in Waterdeep: City of Splendors, and Michael Ambrose, in Tome of Magic.

It takes a lot of self delusion for them to reach Blackguard, while still unwilling to admit, even to themselves, that they are Evil, though.

Might as well just name Miko and open another flamefest... this is what led me to the "fallen paladin" idea.

He looks like a type that associated willingly with evil characters though, or maybe grew disillusioned.

[RMcMurtry]

Evil doesn't necessarily keep him from being a protagonist. See Belkar. He probably guesses that Elan's of good alignment, given who raised him. That doesn't prevent him from wanting Elan to be successful and happy... as long as they're not in direct conflict.

[ZerglingOne]

Oh my... This strip may have a LOT more planning than any of us were aware of... Look at the panel when Elan tells Nale that he's a bard. That is a look of total shock on Nale's face and is right after Elan says it would create dramatic tension. If someone you'd just met said exactly what your mother or father would say in the same situation, would you not have that exact look on your face?

Edit: Mind you, the Giant probably had Tarquin mapped out from this exact moment, name, personality, appearance, and everything else.

Ahem... I TOTALLY CALLED IT! :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Umm... it's Elan's father we're talking about. Elan once believed he was invisible because he was naked.

Elan believed that because Elan is an idiot. Tarquin isn't, as far as we can tell.

[hamishspence]

Might as well just name Miko and open another flamefest... this is what led me to the "fallen paladin" idea.

He looks like a type that associated willingly with evil characters though, or maybe grew disillusioned.

I tend to go with Miko as "Neutral, believing herself to be Good" post-Fall, anyway- but that's not important. What's important is- can Evil people believe themselves to be nonevil?

If they can, its possible that the present-day Tarquin is an example of this.

Though the Tarquin of 20 years ago, did self-identify as Lawful Evil, according to his lawyer:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

it's still possible that in the present day, he may not see himself this way.

[Calemyr]

To quote the Gamers: Dorkness Rising

Talking to a goddess, who laments she can't reward the party's sorceress because she cannot reward evil.
Sorceress: "For the last time, I'm not evil! I'm chaotic neutral! Right?"
(All at once)
Bard: "Yep, evil."
Fighter: "Totally evil."
Paladin: "You are evil and a whore."

[Almaseti]

To quote the Gamers: Dorkness Rising

Talking to a goddess, who laments she can't reward the party's sorceress because she cannot reward evil.
Sorceress: "For the last time, I'm not evil! I'm chaotic neutral! Right?"
(All at once)
Bard: "Yep, evil."
Fighter: "Totally evil."
Paladin: "You are evil and a whore."

How could the paladin associate with her if s/he knew she was evil (and a whore)?

[apenpaap]

How could the paladin associate with her if s/he knew she was evil (and a whore)?

Because he was a DMPC the DM used to keep the party in line as much as possible.

[Luzahn]

Because he was a DMPC the DM used to keep the party in line as much as possible.

DPMC? Not familiar with the acronym. :smallfrown:

[The-Mage-King]

DPMC? Not familiar with the acronym. :smallfrown:

Dungeon Master Player Character.

[krossbow]

Dungeon Master Player Character.


AKA, God-mode sue.

[ThunderCat]

AKA, God-mode sue.To be fair, he did try to give them some leeway. "My, what fine yet rustic architecture! I think I will examine it more closely." Best (a.k.a. worst) excuse ever :smallbiggrin:

[The-Mage-King]

AKA, God-mode sue.

If done right, no.

If done wrong...

Yes.

[krossbow]

If done right, no.

If done wrong...

Yes.


Heh, i know; not all DMNPC's are bad, and done well, they add an incredible amount to the game (I like to use them occasionally myself, and it can help keep the game rolling). However, i've also seen games where an DM NPC will rush into another room, and then, offscreen with no PC's around, somehow kill almost everyone in like one round, or the DM NPC somehow knows exactly how and when the PC's will try and push him off a cliff..

[hamishspence]

in Dungeonscape, it's actually pointed out that an NPC villain really shouldn't let themselves get bull-rushed off a cliff- (they are aware that this is a likely tactic to be used against them.)

The DM might let the players do it once or twice- but not all the time.

[Coidzor]

in Dungeonscape, it's actually pointed out that an NPC villain really shouldn't let themselves get bull-rushed off a cliff- (they are aware that this is a likely tactic to be used against them.)

The DM might let the players do it once or twice- but not all the time.

Oh yeah, can't you just let them by rather than choosing to oppose the bull rush?

[hamishspence]

Hmm- if the enemy has flight- and isn't showing it- and the bull rush is a bit too hard- might the bull rusher end up pushing the enemy and themselves out into space?

Cue Wile-E-Coyote expression before they plummet :smallbiggrin: