Transmuting Weapon vs. Regeneration

[Barbarian MD]

Quick question:
Does the Transmuting weapon enhancement (MIC) overcome a Pit Fiend's good/silver regeneration?

My Google-Fu is failing me. Thanks!

[Hendel]

Quick question:
Does the Transmuting weapon enhancement (MIC) overcome a Pit Fiend's good/silver regeneration?

My Google-Fu is failing me. Thanks!

A strict reading of the Transmuting ability says it overcomes DR and so it would be good and silver for that purpose, but it would still do non-lethal damage due to the Pit Fiend's regeneration. The Pit Fiend would also get 5 of those points back per round.

That being said, if I were the DM and a really persistent player pushed me for a while I could see myself caving and allowing it to count for regeneration as well, but that is not how I initially read the entries.

[Barbarian MD]

I was afraid you'd say that. It's funny to me that a +2 weapon enhancement can't accomplish what a 250 vial of silversheen can do...

[NEO|Phyte]

I was afraid you'd say that. It's funny to me that a +2 weapon enhancement can't accomplish what a 250 vial of silversheen can do...

To be fair, in this case the silversheen alone wouldn't help, because it has to be silver AND Good to bypass the regen.

[Barbarian MD]

Unless you're playing an Archon, for whom all weapons are considered [Good]. :smallbiggrin:

[NEO|Phyte]

Unless you're playing an Archon, for whom all weapons are considered [Good]. :smallbiggrin:

For the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. :smalltongue:

[Barbarian MD]

And... you're right.

So how in the world are angels and demons supposed to fight, if they can't actually kill each other??? Is that why they've been battling for eons, because they keep falling into unconsciousness, healing themselves, battling, falling unconscious, etc.? It's like Highlander or Valhalla!

[sonofzeal]

RAW may not work, but I'm pretty sure RAI does. I wouldn't have any problem with letting those function for Regen, even if it doesn't specify. Heck, check this out....

"Silver, Alchemical
A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes."

Even actual silver doesn't bypass Regen! Oh noes! Unless just being silver is enough, and the additional caveat about working for Damage Reduction is redundant and merely for clarity.

[Telonius]

And... you're right.

So how in the world are angels and demons supposed to fight, if they can't actually kill each other??? Is that why they've been battling for eons, because they keep falling into unconsciousness, healing themselves, battling, falling unconscious, etc.? It's like Highlander or Valhalla!

That's what mortals are for.

[Barbarian MD]

And the war between Devils and Demons, too. They certainly can't overcome DR/good or Regeneration/good. How the heck is there a war going on?

[jindra34]

And the war between Devils and Demons, too. They certainly can't overcome DR/good or Regeneration/good. How the heck is there a war going on?

They hate each other and keep wailing on each other. Just cause they can't do significant lasting harm to each other easily doesn't mean the war can't happen. In fact it may explain why it hasn't ended.

[Barbarian MD]

You would think they would see the futility of it all and just go home and watch some TV or something...

[SaintRidley]

You would think they would see the futility of it all and just go home and watch some TV or something...

Ah, but the winners get to decide how to go about killing all the celestials.

[krossbow]

And the war between Devils and Demons, too. They certainly can't overcome DR/good or Regeneration/good. How the heck is there a war going on?



I thought the caveat about Two magical beings overcoming one another's damage reduction allowed them to kill one another?

[jindra34]

I thought the caveat about Two magical beings overcoming one another's damage reduction allowed them to kill one another?

If the dr is magicish yes. otherwise it falls into alignment troubles.

[The Cat Goddess]

I thought the caveat about Two magical beings overcoming one another's damage reduction allowed them to kill one another?

This often applies to creatures with DR/Evil as well.

Also, at least in modules, you'll often see Warrior Devils carrying Cold Iron weapons and often see Demons carrying both Silver and Cold Iron weapons. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bless Weapon would like to speak with you.

Unlike most of these descriptions, it states:


The weapon also becomes good, which means it can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. (This effect overrides and suppresses any other alignment the weapon might have.)

Thus: it becomes 'good'. This means it can bypass DR/Good. However, since it doesn't explicitly state 'counts as Good for purposes of bypassing DR', it is ALSO good for bypassing Regeneration.

As a 1st level Paladin spell.

Holy/Unholy/anarchic/axiomatic enhancements have similar wording.

[Barbarian MD]

So (again) we have a 250 gp alchemical item and a 1st-level Paladin spell that together accomplish something that a +2 weapon enhancement cannot, RAW. Does anyone else think that's weird?

Does anyone know of a place where Wizards said, "yeah, we goofed, we really intended for anything that covers DR to cover regeneration, too."

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So (again) we have a 250 gp alchemical item and a 1st-level Paladin spell that together accomplish something that a +2 weapon enhancement cannot, RAW. Does anyone else think that's weird?

Does anyone know of a place where Wizards said, "yeah, we goofed, we really intended for anything that covers DR to cover regeneration, too."

One-shot vs all day long... you're gonna run out of Bless Weapon spells and Silversheen real quick if this is all you're running up against...

getting a Silver weapon with the Holy property works, though. And is likely as intended.

[Barbarian MD]

One-shot vs all day long... you're gonna run out of Bless Weapon spells and Silversheen real quick if this is all you're running up against...

getting a Silver weapon with the Holy property works, though. And is likely as intended.

Okay, I submit to your superior logic. But at the same time, something in me just thinks that the costlier item should accomplish more than the cheap item. It just seems silly to knock a Pit Fiend unconscious with my main weapon, and then have to draw a secondary to perform a coup de grace--that strikes me more as something you should have to do with a vampire.

[AslanCross]

RAW may not work, but I'm pretty sure RAI does. I wouldn't have any problem with letting those function for Regen, even if it doesn't specify. Heck, check this out....

"Silver, Alchemical
A complex process involving metallurgy and alchemy can bond silver to a weapon made of steel so that it bypasses the damage reduction of creatures such as lycanthropes."

Even actual silver doesn't bypass Regen! Oh noes! Unless just being silver is enough, and the additional caveat about working for Damage Reduction is redundant and merely for clarity.

The Pit Fiend's Regeneration entry specifies that silver + good weapons deal lethal damage to it, however.

EDIT: Unless I misread the point of your post. XP

[KillianHawkeye]

You would think they would see the futility of it all and just go home and watch some TV or something...

Ah, but the winners get to decide how to go about killing all the celestials.

Maybe the winners get to decide what's on TV? :smallwink:

[jiriku]

So (again) we have a 250 gp alchemical item and a 1st-level Paladin spell that together accomplish something that a +2 weapon enhancement cannot, RAW. Does anyone else think that's weird?

Does anyone know of a place where Wizards said, "yeah, we goofed, we really intended for anything that covers DR to cover regeneration, too."

I think it likely that Wizards regards this as a detail to trivial to even make the errata. Just let it count. Pit fiend is clearly a special case that wasn't contemplated when the weapon enhancement was written.

[Hendel]

Okay, I submit to your superior logic. But at the same time, something in me just thinks that the costlier item should accomplish more than the cheap item. It just seems silly to knock a Pit Fiend unconscious with my main weapon, and then have to draw a secondary to perform a coup de grace--that strikes me more as something you should have to do with a vampire.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but the costlier item (i.e. the Silver Holy Longsword +something enhancement) will both bypass the damage reduction AND bypass the regeneration and do regular damage that is not subject to the 5 hp per round regeneration. Your original question I guess was about Transmuting and that (while costly) only takes care of the DR, but it takes care of ANY and ALL DR, so still worth the coin if you can afford it.

Then again, plead with your DM and see what he says. How many times are you really going to need to finish off the Pit Fiend anyway? It seems like a minor thing in the big picture.

[taltamir]

Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but the costlier item (i.e. the Silver Holy Longsword +something enhancement) will both bypass the damage reduction AND bypass the regeneration and do regular damage that is not subject to the 5 hp per round regeneration. Your original question I guess was about Transmuting and that (while costly) only takes care of the DR, but it takes care of ANY and ALL DR, so still worth the coin if you can afford it.

Then again, plead with your DM and see what he says. How many times are you really going to need to finish off the Pit Fiend anyway? It seems like a minor thing in the big picture.

He is saying that a Transmuting Holy Longsword in "silver" mode will bypass DR but NOT regeneration because it says "for the purpose of bypassing DR" specifically, thus excluding other purposes (such as bypassing regeneration) by strictest of RAW and ignoring RAI. I think that is what he is saying at least.

Anyways, transmuting is a totally worthless enhancement because enhancement cost is EXPONENTIAL... that +2 is never worth it. Rather then having a +3 transmuting longsword (cost 50000gp, can take the form of a silver, adamantium, or cold iron for DR purposes), you are better off with a +3 silver longsword, a +3 cold iron longsword, and a +3 adamantium longsword (18000gp each, total 54000)...
The advantage here is that you have more and better items, and you can also get them to be more specific. (so, for example, you can make on a longsword, and another a hammer, etc).

Actually, let me make a table to see if it is worthwhile or not.
{table] Enhancement Level|Cost of 1| Cost of 3
1|2000|6000
2|8000|24000
3|18000|54000
4|32000|96000
5|50000|150000
6|72000|216000
7|98000|294000
8|128000|384000
9|162000|486000
10|200000|600000[/table]

As you can see, at lower levels it is cheaper to have multiple weapons. Begining with enhancement of a +5 vs 3x +3 it is cheaper to have the +5.

[sonofzeal]

The Pit Fiend's Regeneration entry specifies that silver + good weapons deal lethal damage to it, however.

EDIT: Unless I misread the point of your post. XP
The argument seems to be that Transmuting / Silversheen weapons don't bypass Regen because they don't say they bypass regen. However, the text for alchemical silver doesn't say that it beats regen, either. If we require that the source spells out that it beats regen, we're in serious trouble. On the other hand, there's the line about "A transmuting weapon does not gain any other benefit of the properties it takes on, and it always deals normal damage" that's not very encouraging.


Personally, I go for Shadow Striking weapons. The price tag's heavy, but it's nice to have that consistency. And unlike Transmuting, it actually does gain secondary properties, like -1 damage for silver or beating hardness for adamantine, so it'd beat regen.