PDA

View Full Version : War Troll



quiet1mi
2010-05-12, 01:55 PM
What book is war-troll from? I am looking to build a Dragon Shaman War Troll as a BBEG's Dragon...

The Glyphstone
2010-05-12, 01:56 PM
Monster Manual III I believe.

Eldariel
2010-05-12, 02:02 PM
Monster Manual III I believe.

This is true. It's worth noting that it makes for an awesome warrior of any type, but also anything Con-based; they have sick +18 to Constitution. That makes for nice save DCs.

WoodenSword
2010-05-12, 02:05 PM
I say a Half-Dragon Troll would be cool...

Half-Red Dragon Troll. Makes a nice punching bag

jiriku
2010-05-12, 02:06 PM
An odd thing about war trolls is that they're monstrous humanoids, not giants. This makes them a bit odd mechanically as they have pretty rotten saves for their CR. I slightly-home-brew them when I use them, and stat them as 16HD giants rather than 12-HD monstrous humanoids. They end up with the same attack bonuses but slightly better hit points and saves, with an extra feat that's best used to shore up their saves even further.

WoodenSword
2010-05-12, 02:08 PM
An odd thing about war trolls is that they're monstrous humanoids, not giants. This makes them a bit odd mechanically as they have pretty rotten saves for their CR. I slightly-home-brew them when I use them, and stat them as 16HD giants rather than 12-HD monstrous humanoids. They end up with the same attack bonuses but slightly better hit points and saves, with an extra feat that's best used to shore up their saves even further.

do both his and my ideas?

druid91
2010-05-12, 02:11 PM
Don't let them capture it alive or else (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5689601&postcount=80) experimentation begins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587)......

Eldariel
2010-05-12, 02:11 PM
An odd thing about war trolls is that they're monstrous humanoids, not giants. This makes them a bit odd mechanically as they have pretty rotten saves for their CR. I slightly-home-brew them when I use them, and stat them as 16HD giants rather than 12-HD monstrous humanoids. They end up with the same attack bonuses but slightly better hit points and saves, with an extra feat that's best used to shore up their saves even further.

I just use Masters of Many Forms Wildshaped into them; instant save fix :smallbiggrin: Though if you want to fix up their Will, Steadfast Determination does that. And their fort...well, pump the Con some more. Give them class levels. That'll take care of it, about. They've got pretty good saves for their CR in the end. Dragons have better, but they match up against most CR 12s very well.

jiriku
2010-05-12, 02:20 PM
@druid91
Is it bad that I thought of that too? Is it bad that in my current campaign, the bad guys are actually trying to build the emerald legion?


@Eldariel
...Actually, I do give them Steadfast Determination, yes. :smallbiggrin:

And for class levels on big bruisers like that, I add barbarian and use your barbarian guide. :smallamused:

My players fear me. I've known them to pass up treasure because they were afraid it would attack.

Greenish
2010-05-12, 02:25 PM
Is it bad that in my current campaign, the bad guys are actually trying to build the emerald legion?Only if they succeed.

druid91
2010-05-12, 03:00 PM
Only if they succeed.There is nothing wrong with using the emerald legion.... Especially as a PC.:smallamused:

evil-frosty
2010-05-12, 03:31 PM
With that Con bonus I can see them being vicious totemists.

AslanCross
2010-05-12, 04:38 PM
I say a Half-Dragon Troll would be cool...

Half-Red Dragon Troll. Makes a nice punching bag

The War Troll is already not fire-vulnerable. It's some kind of super soldier troll that's bred to remove the weaknesses.
A Half-Black Dragon War Troll would be completely nasty since its regeneration is only acid-vulnerable. If it's immune to its only weakness...


An odd thing about war trolls is that they're monstrous humanoids, not giants. This makes them a bit odd mechanically as they have pretty rotten saves for their CR. I slightly-home-brew them when I use them, and stat them as 16HD giants rather than 12-HD monstrous humanoids. They end up with the same attack bonuses but slightly better hit points and saves, with an extra feat that's best used to shore up their saves even further.

Actually, Monstrous Humanoids get good Reflex and Will saves. Giants only get good Fort, which is the easiest save to make. Fort is easy to pump since big creatures generally have high Con.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-12, 04:57 PM
Looking at their entry in MM III, shouldn't their large greatswords deal 3d6 damage instead of 2d8?

Greenish
2010-05-12, 04:59 PM
Looking at their entry in MM III, shouldn't their large greatswords deal 3d6 damage instead of 2d8?Yeah. 2d8 would be d10 as a medium weapon.

AslanCross
2010-05-12, 05:10 PM
The errata fixes the War Troll as such:

Hit Dice: 12d8+108 (162 hp)
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+26
Attack: Masterwork greatsword +23 melee
(3d6+15/19–20) or bite +21 melee (1d8+10) or
masterwork composite longbow (+10 Str bonus) +15
ranged (2d6+10/x3)

jiriku
2010-05-12, 05:25 PM
Actually, Monstrous Humanoids get good Reflex and Will saves. Giants only get good Fort, which is the easiest save to make. Fort is easy to pump since big creatures generally have high Con.

This is true, but with 12HD and CR12, their saves are iffy for their level. +13/+11/+12, IIRC. MM1 recommends good saves = CR * 1.5 and poor saves = CR when building monsters from scratch.

Converting from 12 monstrous humanoid hit dice to to 16 giant hit dice doesn't change CR, according to the guidelines for improving monsters (12 MHHD = +4CR, 16 GHD = +4CR). However, it does give +54 hp, +2 Fort save, -3 Ref and Will saves, 1 extra ability point, and 1 extra feat. Put the ability point in Con, Drop Alertness and Iron Will, then add Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and Lightning Reflexes, and the net result is +70hp, +3 Fort save, -1 Ref save, and +4 Will save.

However, I'll admit that I made the changes largely because I'm fussy about details, like to optimize, and have this OCD objection to war trolls being the only trolls that aren't giants. For DMs who don't want to bother fiddling with them, they're perfectly acceptable as-is.

Eldariel
2010-05-12, 05:44 PM
This is true, but with 12HD and CR12, their saves are iffy for their level. +13/+11/+12, IIRC. MM1 recommends good saves = CR * 1.5 and poor saves = CR when building monsters from scratch.

Converting from 12 monstrous humanoid hit dice to to 16 giant hit dice doesn't change CR, according to the guidelines for improving monsters (12 MHHD = +4CR, 16 GHD = +4CR). However, it does give +54 hp, +2 Fort save, -3 Ref and Will saves, 1 extra ability point, and 1 extra feat. Put the ability point in Con, Drop Alertness and Iron Will, then add Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and Lightning Reflexes, and the net result is +70hp, +3 Fort save, -1 Ref save, and +4 Will save.

However, I'll admit that I made the changes largely because I'm fussy about details, like to optimize, and have this OCD objection to war trolls being the only trolls that aren't giants. For DMs who don't want to bother fiddling with them, they're perfectly acceptable as-is.

The thing about their type is that adding HD makes them less perfect Wildshape targets >_> As it stands, they're just busted enough, but at 16 HD? Blaaa. I couldn't even use 'em on arenas like that, and even just getting that many levels of Wildshaping would mean losing way too many levels of good stuff.

Runestar
2010-05-12, 06:52 PM
War troll is a fairly cool and well-rounded soldier-type npc, IMO. It has decent stats, no glaring weaknesses the party can exploit, good attacks and excellent defenses. Saves do seem a tad low, but not all that different from some of the higher cr fiends (for example, the pit fiend has just +19/+19/+21 for cr20, though unholy aura adds another +4).

It also makes the ideal counter against PCs thinking that all trolls should have poor will saves, and so would not hesitate to open combat with a will-save-based effect. :smallamused:

I suppose what you can do is to also give it some cheap magic gear to round out its defenses (using MIC guidelines). It can have ~9800hp worth of gear.

Or give it some spellcasting support, with superior resistance and acid resistance. :smallbiggrin: