What class do you think the General is?

[paladinofshojo]

My money's on blackguard, since he does seem to wear the exact opposite colors of the Saphire Guard and is above the standard redshirts of the Empire of Blood. Your thoughts?

[MonkeyBusiness]

Class of '68. North Eastern.

[Dr.Epic]

I say he's a fighter.

[Mastikator]

Yeah fighter seems like a fitting class for a LE general. It just makes sense somehow

[Watcher]

He seems pretty thin, though. Maybe he's a bard or something, with higher CHA for leadership, but lower STR or CON?

[MartytheBioGuy]

He seems pretty thin, though. Maybe he's a bard or something, with higher CHA for leadership, but lower STR or CON?

Someone else noticed! I agree that he seems thin, but I think its to link him to Elan in our minds (maybe) but lets not turn this thread into that debate.

I personally would like to throw another chip into the fighter pot.

[Temotei]

Paladin of tyranny?

He hasn't really shown much so far, so it's hard to tell.

[Almaseti]

Definitely fighter. We've seen other fighters with similar outfits, the body only looks small because the helmet is so big, and he seemed to be bull-rushing Haley.

It seems like the kind of place where Asskicking Equals Authority, if I can quote tvtropes without sounding pretentious.

[Temotei]

Definitely fighter. We've seen other fighters with similar outfits, the body only looks small because the helmet is so big, and he seemed to be bull-rushing Haley.

It seems like the kind of place where Asskicking Equals Authority, if I can quote tvtropes without sounding pretentious.

Bull rushing is available to everyone and outfits don't make a character.

Still, fighter is a likely possibility.

[MartytheBioGuy]

Definitely fighter. We've seen other fighters with similar outfits, the body only looks small because the helmet is so big, and he seemed to be bull-rushing Haley.


Actually, the body literally is smaller. It's not an illusion. It's a thinner rectangle.

[brionl]

I vote for Aristocrat.
:smallbiggrin:

[Almaseti]

Looking at it again, I guess it is a little smaller. Huh.

Anyone can bullrush? I thought it was a fighter thing, but then I still haven't been able to pull together a game of DnD despite multiple attempts, so I'll take your word. As far as I can recall, I've only seen fighters bullrushing in OOtS, though.

[Lord Raziere]

resourceful warlord with good int and cha to explain both his persuasiveness and cunning.

wait what? ooooooooooh I thought you meant 4e :smallwink: my mistake :smallbiggrin:

[BossMuro]

Well, his high charisma and knowledge of tactics would make me say Marshal, but the Giant usually doesn't go with non-core stuff. So, I'd have to guess a Blackguard with a fighter base. Of course, he could just be a straight fighter, but the spikes of evil make me think otherwise. Plus, Blackguard would let him put that high charisma to use.

[pinwiz]

since he's obviously roy in disguise, he must be a fighter. :smallamused:

[Zevox]

Well, his high charisma and knowledge of tactics would make me say Marshal, but the Giant usually doesn't go with non-core stuff. So, I'd have to guess a Blackguard with a fighter base. Of course, he could just be a straight fighter, but the spikes of evil make me think otherwise. Plus, Blackguard would let him put that high charisma to use.
I'm sorry, but where are you getting this "high charisma" thing from? We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate what any of his stats are.

Zevox

[Mastikator]

If anything he's strong (easily pushed Haley out) and intelligent (came up with a good plan to make Elan and co surrender on the spot) and have some ranks in intimidate (threatened that Haley would come to harm if Elan didn't surrender). He probably has improved bull rush as well (since Haley didn't get AOP).

[Zevox]

If anything he's strong (easily pushed Haley out)
Could be any positive modifier, given Haley isn't strong.


and intelligent (came up with a good plan to make Elan and co surrender on the spot)
Threatening to hurt their friend is about as basic of a plan to get someone to surrender as they come. Just one step above threatening to hurt them. At best, only tells us he has at least average int (10+).


and have some ranks in intimidate (threatened that Haley would come to harm if Elan didn't surrender).
Granted, probable.


He probably has improved bull rush as well (since Haley didn't get AOP).
Yeah, in case you haven't noticed, AoOs don't happen practically ever in the comic. Aside from a few that were necessary for jokes (Yikyik & Belkar, the Half-Ogre with a chain), they're simply never used.

Zevox

[rockdeworld]

Also note that you don't get an AoO against someone you're not expecting to attack you (because you have to think of them as an enemy). Shaky logic, maybe, but there you go.

[doodthedud]

I say he's a fighter.

Gotta agree with the good doctor here.

[Asta Kask]

Fighter. He's like Roy, only evil.

[The Pilgrim]

More money on fighter.

[Yora]

Threatening to hurt their friend is about as basic of a plan to get someone to surrender as they come. Just one step above threatening to hurt them. At best, only tells us he has at least average int (10+).
But pushing Haley over the edge so V would use the only spell left that could be used for an escape, seems pretty smart to me.

And as OotS doesn't make much use of non-core classes or prestige-classes at all, I'd say fighter as well.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

He looks as if taken from 2nd edition (as Haley's father), so I'd say a fighter. However, if he's actually from 3.5, I would say an evil Paladin, maybe a LE Knight from PHII.

[Draconi Redfir]

after this strip, i'd say bard. or at leats a bard/fighter cross.

[Snake-Aes]

A knight type, definitely. The Knight itself fits the "Loyal and Dramatic" subtype, but as far as we know he could be a duskblade or a commoner.

[Deca]

after this strip, i'd say bard. or at leats a bard/fighter cross.

Except that according to Nale, he doesn't like Bards very much at all. Not the best source of information but still...

[Zevox]

after this strip, i'd say bard. or at leats a bard/fighter cross.

Except that according to Nale, he doesn't like Bards very much at all. Not the best source of information but still...
Not to mention the Bard alignment restriction - you can't be lawful and be a Bard. And he seems to be lawful - placing a strong value on the "I gave my word" thing tends to be a pretty distinct lawfuls-only trait, plus we were told way back when Nale & Elan's origins were explained (in a flashback of which neither of them was aware, so it wasn't coming from an unreliable narrator) that their father was Lawful Evil and mother Chaotic Good, hence their divorce.

Zevox

[Kish]

He looks as if taken from 2nd edition (as Haley's father), so I'd say a fighter. However, if he's actually from 3.5, I would say an evil Paladin, maybe a LE Knight from PHII.
There's no indication that Rich is using PHB2 or the variant paladin rules, and evidence (Roy saying "paladin"="definitionally one of the good guys") that he isn't using the latter.

[Souhiro]

Well, I think that his class is "Super Special Crazy Awesome"

This guy is to CHA the very same that O'Chul is to CON

[Dark Matter]

I'm sorry, but where are you getting this "high charisma" thing from?We're getting it from his very high Appearance (i.e. exactly like Elan but older). If you want to be very attractive (Elan), then you need a high Charisma (also Elan).

Granted, the reverse isn't true, i.e. a high Charisma doesn't always equal a great Appearance (witness Xykon).

[NerfTW]

We're getting it from his very high Appearance (i.e. exactly like Elan but older). If you want to be very attractive (Elan), then you need a high Charisma (also Elan).

Granted, the reverse isn't true, i.e. a high Charisma doesn't always equal a great Appearance (witness Xykon).


I'd love to know how you got it from his appearance hours before the comic where he takes off his helmet went up.

[Dark Matter]

??? I am getting it from 723.

[Johel]

Not Bard since... You know... He's Lawful Evil.
We know that from an earlier strip, where the divorce was explained.
And he gave us a proof of his Lawful side just right in the last two strips.

Given the fact he is wearing an armor, we can rule out Wizard and Sorcerer.
But he does have a good Intelligence, if only for the "on the spot" thinking about how to waste the party's escape plan. Charisma, I don't know. Probably, as it runs in the family and he seems to be good at persuading people.

Strength, he does have. Who would have relied on a Bullrush if he wasn't sure to win ? So, yeah, Fighter fits.

And levels of Black Guard would definitely fit the whole "Lawful Evil" theme.

[paddyfool]

He could be a Fighter/Dashing Swordsman... which would make him truly the Vader to Julio Scoundrel's Obi Wan.

[Zevox]

We're getting it from his very high Appearance (i.e. exactly like Elan but older). If you want to be very attractive (Elan), then you need a high Charisma (also Elan).

Granted, the reverse isn't true, i.e. a high Charisma doesn't always equal a great Appearance (witness Xykon).
I'm sorry, but how the nine hells do you determine that he is "very attractive" in a stick figure comic? Everyone looks much the same in that regard unless they're deliberately drawn to be ugly. And there's a very obvious reason he looks like Elan that has nothing to do with ability scores.

Zevox

[Dark Matter]

I'm sorry, but how the nine hells do you determine that he is "very attractive" in a stick figure comic?Because Elan is stated to be very attractive and this guy is Elan-with-White-hair? Seriously, look at their faces, they're identical.

And yes, they look similar because they're father-son... but if Dad's attribute were significantly different then he'd have a scar or poc-marks or *something* that could make him less attractive.

[Zevox]

Because Elan is stated to be very attractive and this guy is Elan-with-White-hair? Seriously, look at their faces, they're identical.
Again, stick figure comic. There's only so much variation you can have. Hell, the only reason their faces look so much alike is because they have the same hair, just with his father's being white. In that same vein, people thought Haley might be related to Girard because their hair looked alike.


And yes, they look similar because they're father-son... but if Dad's attribute were significantly different then he'd have a scar or poc-marks or *something* that could make him less attractive.
No, because such marks would be used to make him unattractive/ugly and imply either a much greater age than he seems to have or a low (negative modifier) charisma score. You shouldn't need those just to not assume he has the same kind of high charisma as Elan, any more than you should assume that any Elf with a similar hairdo to or related to V also has a low charisma score.

Zevox

[Thant]

My bet would be on some paladin variant like paladin of tyranny or paladin of slaughter, the first one more likely than the latter being similar to his name. And yes he seems awesome already! :smallsmile:

[paddyfool]

Incidentally, I'm of the opinion that he should have a decent charisma stat from his skilled manipulation, mollifying, and speech-making.

[Dark Matter]

Zevox, I disagree. IMHO that's exactly what we can do. :smallwink:

[Kish]

My bet would be on some paladin variant like paladin of tyranny or paladin of slaughter,
Again, no evidence that Rich uses the variant paladin rules, and rather compelling evidence (Roy saying "paladin"="definitionally one of the good guys") that he doesn't.

[Snake-Aes]

Incidentally, I'm of the opinion that he should have a decent charisma stat from his skilled manipulation, mollifying, and speech-making.
His leadership position also hints at it.

It takes a competence that he seems to have (on the fly planning. Really fly here as he had literally a second or two to come up with the Feather Fall Foil). Competence + Charisma = Leader.

[doodthedud]

after this strip, i'd say bard. or at leats a bard/fighter cross.

Bards can't be lawful


Well, his high charisma and knowledge of tactics would make me say Marshal, but the Giant usually doesn't go with non-core stuff. So, I'd have to guess a Blackguard with a fighter base. Of course, he could just be a straight fighter, but the spikes of evil make me think otherwise. Plus, Blackguard would let him put that high charisma to use.

The spikes are likely just his environment. Blackguard is a maybe, but I still say pure fighter.

[Zevox]

Incidentally, I'm of the opinion that he should have a decent charisma stat from his skilled manipulation, mollifying, and speech-making.
More reasonable, but still at best could be said to hint at a positive modifier, and nothing more specific than that.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

Ex-bards don't lose much by becoming lawful, though- only the ability to advance. They retain all their powers.

So he could be a lawful ex-bard (maybe became lawful at some point before divorcing his wife.) Commanding an army might have pushed him toward Lawful alignment.

I'm not saying this is the case- but it is not impossible either.

[Vemynal]

i like the fighter/blackguard theory

gives him the same 'cheese' elan complained about when having a prestige class XD

[hamishspence]

Even Nale's "My father taught me bards were underpowered" might (theoretically) have come via personal experience.

[doodthedud]

Even Nale's "My father taught me bards were underpowered" might (theoretically) have come via personal experience.

His wife was also a bard, was she not? He would have excellent knowledge to tell his children about bards after being married to her.

[hamishspence]

We don't actually know what class the wife was:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

All we know is that her profession was barmaid, and she sang while she worked.

I'm not saying she wasn't- just that it isn't proven that she was.

[Vemynal]

ooo another point- not a dashing swords man cuz armor interferes with class abilities

[Snake-Aes]

Am I really so wrong in suggesting something so much simpler like a knight? <cries>

[Kish]

Yes, you're wrong in suggesting something from a book Rich hasn't used before for the reason of "simple."

You want simple? Suggest fighter.

[Snake-Aes]

Yes, you're wrong in suggesting something from a book Rich hasn't used before for the reason of "simple."

You want simple? Suggest fighter.

That was already done on the first posts. Why should I bring a suggestion of my own that isn't new?

[Kish]

Because you protested other suggestions not being "simple." Bringing the PHB2 into the comic for the first time hardly qualifies as simple.

[hamishspence]

True- we've seen references to Warlocks though. and we know Incarnum users and Psionic characters exist in OOTS.

Maybe he could be a Psychic Warrior that hasn't manifested anything onscreen yet?

[neoseph7]

Elan's father as a straight fighter with moderatly good cha and int stats works particularly well. Amongst other things, it creates another father/son relationship where the spellcaster son feels the need to espouse his intellectual superiority to his fighter father, ala Eugine and Horace Greenhilt, which ties Elan's and Roy's story with more depth than before. Thus allowing for an Elan- Nale showdown that shows Elan dramatically calling Roy more of a brother than Nale could ever be. Or something.

As I'm not coming back to this thread anytime soon, figured I might a well address the logical counterarguments.

1) I said fighter with improved stats to explain thier behaivior in th comic. Simply calling the general a fighter is all my argument requires.

2) Elan probably already considers Roy more of a brother than the evil individual who tried to kill him. Twice? More? Yes, very true. It is my belief that Roy will reciprocate the sentiment after this ark plays out to include the family parallels.

[snikrept]

I dunno, everybody seems to be a bit different in OOTS. We've had the straight fighter already, bet this guy is something else. He seems to leverage his CHA quite a bit in getting what he wants ...

[Nimrod's Son]

He seems pretty thin, though.
Intestingly, when we first saw him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) he had the thickest arms of any stick-figure in the comic.

[zadcap]

Another point missed would be Nale's class choices. Despite being taught that bards are weak, he chose a (complicated) build that gives him weapon skill, a lot of skill points, and spell casting in a way to gain advantages over people(as opposed to outright shows of power or destruction). He was obviously influenced to like these traits from somewhere, and while Father is not the only choice, it's usually the strongest.

That being said, I don't think he is either a Bard or cross class monstrosity. I also don't think he's a straight up Fighter, not with both kids being spell casters. Also consider that so far, Elan and Nale are the only main characters with more than one class(if I am wrong, please forgive me), so his father having a second class wouldn't surprise me. My money is on Fighter/Blackguard.

Edit: Pointed out that Belkar is also multi-class. (Daddy found a short girl with a closer alignment after divorcing Mommy?)

[Southern Cross]

A Fighter /Warlock build perhaps?

[Johel]

Also consider that so far, Elan and Nale are the only main characters with more than one class(if I am wrong, please forgive me)

Belkar is a multiclassed Ranger/Barbarian.

[Hawkfrost]

Though I doubt Rich is using material from the Miniatures Handbook in OOTS, if he was, then Elan's father appears to have the making of a Marshal. Marshals rely on high Charisma to boost the performance of their allies in combat. If Tarquin has a reputation as a ruthless conqueror, yet is popular with the soldiers under his command, then this class could well suit him.

[zadcap]

Belkar is a multiclassed Ranger/Barbarian.

Thank you for pointing that out. I shall edit that in.

I think the point remains. Belkar is exempt from all normal rules.

[paddyfool]

Also, O'Chul is a multiclass Fighter/Paladin, Miko was a multiclass Monk/Paladin, and Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge of some kind.

Then, in terms of less major characters, you've got a couple of the thieve's guild in greysky city, Julio Scoundrel, one of the resistance who took a level in Rogue, and doubtless some others that I've forgotten.

[The Pilgrim]

Given his age, Tarquin must have begun as a 1st or 2nd Edition class.

[hamishspence]

Xykon began as a Sorcerer, even though he's even older, in SoD. With a Wizard trying to recruit him- so it's not a case of him being just a generic "Magic-User".

It's possible that the "1st edition" line was for humor, rather than an indication that all characters over a certain age are 2nd or 1st ed classes.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, it's a tradition among the fathers of PC's. Roy's father was an Illusionist, Haley's father a 1st Edition Thief... so it would be interesting if Elan's father followed suit also. I dunno, an Evil Paladin from 2nd Edition (would match the high charisma).

Through it's probable he is just a Fighter after all.

[Underground]

Obviously pure Fighter, or Fighter/Blackguard, or Fighter/Some Obscure Prestige Class.

For the moment, I'll go with pure Fighter for simplicity.


after this strip, i'd say bard. or at leats a bard/fighter cross. We know he's supposed to be lawful evil, and Bards cant be lawful in D&D 3.x.


Even Nale's "My father taught me bards were underpowered" might (theoretically) have come via personal experience. Nale couldnt be bard either - lawful evil.

[Kish]

I dunno, an Evil Paladin from 2nd Edition (would match the high charisma).
Paladins had to be Lawful Good in 2ed.

[The Pilgrim]

Paladins had to be Lawful Good in 2ed.

Weren't evil paladins eventually introduced in 1st Edition? Anti-Paladins and such.

Still, thinking about it, Tarquin doesn't look like the kind of guy who fights for a deity, so never mind.

[dehro]

have some ranks in intimidate (threatened that Haley would come to harm if Elan didn't surrender).

I can't help but think that a wet sponge could intimidate and outsmart elan...hence..general tarquin spongebob (I know, I rather talk like I'm on lsd, don't I?)

Except that according to Nale, he doesn't like Bards very much at all. Not the best source of information but still...

I have stated this elsewhere, nale is an egomaniac and his description of their dad may be biased by his own "filter of perception" and by how his dad was towards him, what with having to put up with a total moron, i.e. nale

my reasoning is probably flawed on many levels, due to my lack of in depth knowledge in d&d matters..but I'll put some thoughts forward:

he is very aware of "delivery" and of saving the "perfect line" for the right occasion, which would make me think bard. allignment says he can't be...so..what other classes (or prestige classes) have the same level of theatrics?
heavy armour and a military carreer (plus reflexes quick enough to catch haley out) suggest a tough fighter class
I don't think these 2 elements would come together in a single class..so...
fighter bard? or fighter/something else that includes "delivery and theatrics"?
I think he's a multiclass because we know nale has been multiclassing from early on...and I would guess (yes, I said guess) that he's learned that from the people he grew up with, a.k.a. his dad.
also, he's probably a few levels ahead of the oots, simply because he's been in the game for a lot longer (and he's obviously successfull at what he does, given his status, and the fact he's still alive and thriving in the military profession)... this would give him ample opportunity to multiclass into something that combines the tough guy act with the more "elan-like" qualities.

[hamishspence]

he is very aware of "delivery" and of saving the "perfect line" for the right occasion, which would make me think bard. allignment says he can't be...so..what other classes (or prestige classes) have the same level of theatrics?

Aside from Bard I can't think of any. Ex-bards (which have become lawful) can't advance further, but retain all their powers.

[dehro]

Aside from Bard I can't think of any. Ex-bards (which have become lawful) can't advance further, but retain all their powers.

there ya go then...
tarquin and his ex had a sonny and cher phase...then the gigs stopped, she got into waitressing and he took up the blade:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Asta Kask]

Weren't evil paladins eventually introduced in 1st Edition? Anti-Paladins and such.

No. Gygax didn't like the idea and said so in the 1st ed. DMG.

[sihnfahl]

I have stated this elsewhere, nale is an egomaniac and his description of their dad may be biased by his own "filter of perception" and by how his dad was towards him, what with having to put up with a total moron, i.e. nale
Nale's no moron. He's actually pretty intelligent.
Except Nale has a superiority complex that would put most megalomaniacal dictators to shame. And he lacks the experience and strength to back that complex up.
And all his multi-classing can't help, either.

[Faramir]

I'm sorry, but where are you getting this "high charisma" thing from? We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate what any of his stats are.

Zevox

While I usually have no problem telling by the art if a character is supposed to be good looking the real proof is the way other people react to him. The Queen looks to him for advice, the high priest defers to him, even Elan trusts him to keep his word immediately before knowing their relationship. That's high charisma in action.

[dehro]

fair enough...then substitute it with derogative expletive of choice... the point still stands :smalltongue:

[Kranden]

His father, damn I'm good

[martinkou]

High charisma, heavy armor...

Maybe he's a gish? Eldritch Knight + Sorcerer + Fighter.

This also makes sense if it's him who taught Nale to multiclass. His heavy armor would certainly impair his spellcasting but he could be so high level he can simply rely on still spells.

[baerdith]

I say 1st ed bard

Strength 15+
Wisdom 15+
Dexterity 15+
Charisma 15+
Intelligence 12+
Constitution 10+ (Minmums for bard class)

Fighter 7, Theif 8, Bard 17 (Anstruth)
Align: Lawful Neutral (with evil tendencies)
We'll see if he casts Druid spells or shapechanges....

[baerdith]

Not to mention the Bard alignment restriction - you can't be lawful and be a Bard. And he seems to be lawful - placing a strong value on the "I gave my word" thing tends to be a pretty distinct lawfuls-only trait, plus we were told way back when Nale & Elan's origins were explained (in a flashback of which neither of them was aware, so it wasn't coming from an unreliable narrator) that their father was Lawful Evil and mother Chaotic Good, hence their divorce.

Zevox
A 1st Ed Bard can be any alignment, as long as there is some Neutrality in it. Say LN? Or maybe NE with strong Lawful tendencies?

[Zevox]

A 1st Ed Bard can be any alignment, as long as there is some Neutrality in it. Say LN? Or maybe NE with strong Lawful tendencies?
This isn't 1st edition, though. And the one-off joke about Haley's father being a 1st-ed thief seems to have been long ago abandoned as far as the actual world goes - Xykon was a 3rd-ed sorcerer over 100 years ago. And even if it weren't, the world has been updated to 3.5 since the comic's first strip, so it wouldn't matter.

And even if none of that were the case he still couldn't be Lawful Evil, as we were told he is and he appears to be now that we've met him, and be a Bard, even under those old rules.

Zevox

[dehro]

This isn't 1st edition, though. And the one-off joke about Haley's father being a 1st-ed thief seems to have been long ago abandoned as far as the actual world goes - Xykon was a 3rd-ed sorcerer over 100 years ago. And even if it weren't, the world has been updated to 3.5 since the comic's first strip, so it wouldn't matter.

it would actually... the characters have been updated, not cancelled...so a character that started out as something that according to the new rules can't exist, would either be houseruled or find a new configuration, right?
if haley's remark about her father is "canon" then maybe xykon has "evolved" into his sorcerer class?

And even if none of that were the case he still couldn't be Lawful Evil, as we were told he is and he appears to be now that we've met him, and be a Bard, even under those old rules.
Zevox

it's my understanding he could, if multiclass

[Andorax]

Not that Fighters can't have a sense of honor, but we do hang our perceptions of these things on the smallest details.

I'm leaing towards Knight/Marshal.

[baerdith]

This isn't 1st edition, though. And the one-off joke about Haley's father being a 1st-ed thief seems to have been long ago abandoned as far as the actual world goes - Xykon was a 3rd-ed sorcerer over 100 years ago. And even if it weren't, the world has been updated to 3.5 since the comic's first strip, so it wouldn't matter.

And even if none of that were the case he still couldn't be Lawful Evil, as we were told he is and he appears to be now that we've met him, and be a Bard, even under those old rules.

Zevox

Xykon follows his own rules........

As far as T? Upon update he would stay the same evolve to NE with strong Lawful tendencies or be updated to a regular bard that can't go up any levels.

Think about this: When did the world evolve to 3rd ed? Maybe when it evolved, T saw that he couldn't be Lawful Neutral anymore and switched to Lawful Evil ,switched to another class and divorced his now totally incompatible wife??

[Arcane Hoplite]

I always thought of him as a fighter, but now that I think over it, it would be quite monotonous for him to be just a fighter(no offence Roy!). Maybe he multiclassed just like Nale?

[Kish]

if haley's remark about her father is "canon" then maybe xykon has "evolved" into his sorcerer class?

He was a sorcerer as a child.


it's my understanding he could, if multiclass
He could theoretically be an ex-bard who used to be non-Lawful, if that's what you mean. But there's no indication that he was ever non-Lawful, a bard, or a pre-3ed character.

[dehro]

He was a sorcerer as a child.

He could theoretically be an ex-bard who used to be non-Lawful, if that's what you mean. But there's no indication that he was ever non-Lawful, a bard, or a pre-3ed character.

my hint at bard is purelly based on his apparent understanding and attention for "delivering his line"...it might be only a star wars joke and it's contour...but it might also be a hint at a character with a "class" understanding in that direction..and other posters advise that the bard is the only class focussing on theatrics

[Kish]

and other posters advise that the bard is the only class focussing on theatrics

Can there not be facets of life that are not defined solely by class? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

Well, we'll probably know what class General Tarquin is within a few strips.

[Narren]

He's obviously an ex-Bard/fallen Druid/Paladin of Tyranny/Warmage/Favored Soul of Tiamat

[Coidzor]

Or a factotum, the smart version of what Nale wanted to be.

[dehro]

Can there not be facets of life that are not defined solely by class? (hhttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

Well, we'll probably know what class General Tarquin is within a few strips.
well..yes, of course..
I agree that not everything said or done by the characters should be defined or restricted to d&d rules..but the whole point of this thread is to try and guess tarquin's class..from what little we know or have seen so far of him, so...

[Anonymous Man]

Can there not be facets of life that are not defined solely by class? (hhttp://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

Well, we'll probably know what class General Tarquin is within a few strips.

I'd just like to point out that you link has two h's in the beginning.
Also, I think he's a blackguard.

[Knaight]

Intestingly, when we first saw him (http://theswca.com/textf/toydeath.html) he had the thickest arms of any stick-figure in the comic.

Battlestar Galactica toy recall? What?

[Kish]

I'd just like to point out that you link has two h's in the beginning.

Oops!


Also, I think he's a blackguard.
Not unlikely.

[Flying Elephant]

Intestingly, when we first saw him (http://theswca.com/textf/toydeath.html) he had the thickest arms of any stick-figure in the comic.

Interesting choice of site to go to with the link. Poor kid.

[LuisDantas]

What does hint at him being a Blackguard?

He doesn't even have a particularly clear alignment. Then again, I don't know much about Blackguards.

I would assume him to be a high-level Fighter until more evidence presents itself. As others have stated, he seems to have fairly high STR, INT and perhaps a bit of Charisma. Not to mention what appears to be Heavy Armor.

It is certainly possible for him to belong to any of about at least a dozen classes. But a straight Fighter seems the best fit so far.

[Mastikator]

One, admittedly weak, piece of evidence that we've seen is that he promised they won't come to any harm. Blackguards are the evil version of paladins. They go out of their way to be as evil as possible.
It would be more fitting if he indeed was a blackguard that he'd promise to give them a quick death instead of slowly torturing them and then let a demon feed of their souls.

[Coidzor]

One, admittedly weak, piece of evidence that we've seen is that he promised they won't come to any harm. Blackguards are the evil version of paladins. They go out of their way to be as evil as possible.

No. They're not required to do evil or they'll fall. They're not required to do evil acts when it would not be conducive to their interests, nor would most characters who survive long enough to become blackguards. They're as selfish or devoted to cosmic evil as any other evil person of at least 7th level, which means they run the gamut. Hell, they're not even necessarily under a particular fiendish patron's sway, unlike that demon samurai prc.


It would be more fitting if he indeed was a blackguard that he'd promise to give them a quick death instead of slowly torturing them and then let a demon feed of their souls.

But nowhere near conducive to his purposes here, or the narrative... That is, to ascertain which twin he's dealing with, and not totally alienate/have to kill his long-lost son immediately upon encountering him. I imagine most evil peoples would find more value in recruiting their offspring, as those that would simply destroy their offspring out of hand as threats generally are smart enough to not MAKE any offspring.

After all, blood is thicker than water.

Personally, I think it's too early to take much of anything as evidence just yet. I'm mulling over the possibility that he might just be a multi-class that's reasonably effective (so, not completely contradictory to optimization and not anything to write home about in terms of optimization, but...ah... playable) and served as the inspiration for Nale's lack-luster multi-class choices, where he wanted to do it of his own choice and planning and surpass his father.

What do I have to go on? Slightly less than nothing, given that Nale's crappy multi-class choices were meant to originally make him serve as a foil to Elan by being a threat to Elan and only Elan, but the idea did occur to me.

[Nimrod's Son]

Battlestar Galactica toy recall? What?
Whoops. I'd linked to that article in another thread and somehow pasted it in there as well. I meant to link to comic #50. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

But yeah, check it out: BIG arms.

[sum1won]

But nowhere near conducive to his purposes here, or the narrative... That is, to ascertain which twin he's dealing with, and not totally alienate/have to kill his long-lost son immediately upon encountering him. I imagine most evil peoples would find more value in recruiting their offspring, as those that would simply destroy their offspring out of hand as threats generally are smart enough to not MAKE any offspring.


*Cough*allofgreekmythology*cough*

[dehro]

One, admittedly weak, piece of evidence that we've seen is that he promised they won't come to any harm. Blackguards are the evil version of paladins. They go out of their way to be as evil as possible.
It would be more fitting if he indeed was a blackguard that he'd promise to give them a quick death instead of slowly torturing them and then let a demon feed of their souls.

well..yes...assuming they were enemies...but do blackguards act that way towards their own sons, recently or long lost as they may be? seems a tad odd to me..so...I'm not buying this argument
in whatever direction this is meant work in regards to the blackguard thing..I don't think it's working

[Kish]

well..yes...assuming they were enemies...but do blackguards act that way towards their own sons, recently or long lost as they may be? seems a tad odd to me..so...I'm not buying this argument
in whatever direction this is meant work in regards to the blackguard thing..I don't think it's working
The one thing morally required of blackguards is evil alignment. They're not as limited as paladins, they don't Fall if they ever do anything good.

[Roy III]

I don't believe that the General's class will become a major plot point or anything.

So I'ma have to go with Fighter. I'm sure his competence in battle will be highlighted, but not the specifics behind it.

[Morithias]

I'm on the side that says we're probably not going to get a direct answer, but I'm willing to guess if he has levels in any prestige class, I'd bet something from Heroes of Battle. It's the only book that actually has anything that helps you act as a general.

[paddyfool]

Blackguard would be interesting, for a number of reasons, all of which require some conjecture:


- Sabine previously referenced it with regard to Miko, so we know they can exist in this setting
- it would explain the Nale/Sabine association (heh, what if she was T's ex?)
- it would intersect nicely with the IFCC arc
- it creates a potential for interesting future dialogue with V
- it doesn't have to be revealed right away, but could be held off to taunt us with the whole "is he, isn't he" bit

However, I'd suspect we'd see some sign of the 3rd level ability Aura of Despair if he has it... it's the sort of thing that should be obvious. Also, it seems clear that T has ranks in Diplomacy, which fits, although in turn suggests something different to straight Fighter before (maybe he started out as a Paladin and sidled downwards; or maybe he started out as a Rogue).

[Coidzor]

Blackguard would be interesting, for a number of reasons, all of which require some conjecture:


- Sabine previously referenced it with regard to Miko, so we know they can exist in this setting
- it would explain the Nale/Sabine association (heh, what if she was T's ex?)
- it would intersect nicely with the IFCC arc
- it creates a potential for interesting future dialogue with V
- it doesn't have to be revealed right away, but could be held off to taunt us with the whole "is he, isn't he" bit

However, I'd suspect we'd see some sign of the 3rd level ability Aura of Despair if he has it... it's the sort of thing that should be obvious. Also, it seems clear that T has ranks in Diplomacy, which fits, although in turn suggests something different to straight Fighter before (maybe he started out as a Paladin and sidled downwards; or maybe he started out as a Rogue).


In regards to the aura, I don't think it'd be something we'd pick up on without some kind of engineered opportunity to turn it into a joke, so it seems more likely that we'd know he was a blackguard well before the whole aura of despair thing would come into play. For one thing, it's rather specific what would cause it to come up (a saving throw that they would know they would otherwise have passed while within 10 feet of him) and for another, the aura of courage was never really dealt with in all of those loads of paladin strips, so the precedent isn't really in favor of dealing with auras all that much.

[binyamin20]

I'm sorry, but where are you getting this "high charisma" thing from? We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate what any of his stats are.

Zevox

Actually, not only did he bull-rush a high-level thief (high-level and/or high stats indicator), he also flattered the empress of blood pretty easily (high cha indicator).
I say fighter/arstiocrat.

[Roupe]

The General surely existed before the rule revisions, so He must be of the antique classes

I would guess he was of the Cavalier from AD&D. Bards then was similar to prestige class.

In the conversion, Perhaps he got converted into a bard now ^^
Despite his opinion of them.

[Kish]

The General surely existed before the rule revisions, so He must be of the antique classes
Doesn't follow. Xykon is over a hundred years old and was always a sorcerer. If Rich wants to make another joke about previous editions, Tarquin will have been a 1ed or 2ed character at some point. If he doesn't, then he never was.

[Zevox]

Actually, not only did he bull-rush a high-level thief (high-level and/or high stats indicator),
...which has nothing at all to do with charisma, and in fact would be quite easy for anyone with a good strength score since Haley does not have a good strength score, which is all that factors into bull rush rolls.


he also flattered the empress of blood pretty easily (high cha indicator).
She's a Dragon, and a none-too-bright one at that. Flattering her is an accomplishment on par with grappling a Halfling wizard.

Zevox

[Roy III]

I think we're gonna have to take Haley's comment about the first-generation thief with a grain of salt. That's likely just a reference to the fact that he could have qualified for one, or something.

Xykon having always been a sorcerer is the example we should look to.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Given his age, Tarquin must have begun as a 1st or 2nd Edition class.

I think this is quite probable, or at least plausible, along the lines of:


I say 1st ed bard

Strength 15+
Wisdom 15+
Dexterity 15+
Charisma 15+
Intelligence 12+
Constitution 10+ (Minmums for bard class)

Fighter 7, Theif 8, Bard 17 (Anstruth)
Align: Lawful Neutral (with evil tendencies)
We'll see if he casts Druid spells or shapechanges....

That said, this would conflict with prior evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) which may or may not have come from an unreliable narrator. So "Take it in what sense thou wilt..." to quote (http://www.twelfth-night.info/clicknotes/romeo/NotesT11.html#26) The Bard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shakespeare).


Or a factotum, the smart version of what Nale wanted to be.

Now there's an interesting thought...


*Cough*allofgreekmythology*cough*

Not really. Looking to the Iliad, we find many characters to be the offspring of various Gods and Goddesses, who often come to the aid of their children (in fact we find Zeus put in a difficult position, not being able to save his son, Sarpedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarpedon#Son_of_Zeus_and_Laodamia), who is fated to die.). Further evidence of the same (from, granted, a Roman perspective) is to be had in the Aeneid.




...She's a Dragon, and a none-too-bright one at that. Flattering her is an accomplishment on par with grappling a Halfling wizard.

Zevox

Was said halfling wizard aware he would be grappled? That would change the CR of the encounter, so to speak...:smallwink:

[Just Joseph]

One, admittedly weak, piece of evidence that we've seen is that he promised they won't come to any harm. Blackguards are the evil version of paladins. They go out of their way to be as evil as possible.
It would be more fitting if he indeed was a blackguard that he'd promise to give them a quick death instead of slowly torturing them and then let a demon feed of their souls.

This is on a par with saying "a paladin would always [insert anything here that resembles Miko Miyazaki]."

If there is anything this strip is "about", it's that D&D characters, campaigns, and worlds defy simplistic expectations when they are played as if real people are involved.

The common, simplistic interpretation of paladins makes them horribly arrogant [Miko]. if real people act this way, they can do great harm to those around them even while cleaving to simplistic notions of Lawful Good. When played with an assumption of humility [O-Chul], they don't meet the stereotype but come closer to the sort of person real people might want defending a benevolent, well-ordered society.

Other examples abound. Real-people ranger? To his favored enemy (and maybe everyone around him) he can be a psycopath [Belkar]. Real-people goblins [Redcloak]? They aren't motivated to form conquering armies just because they're eeeevil, they do it because they're tired of being XP fodder and just want their own place in the world where they can be safe. Real-people adventurers of all sorts? To real-people non-adventurers [Celia], they can look like loose cannons with a licence to murder as long as they call it an "adventure".

*If* this guy is a blackguard (and I have nothing to say right now about whether he is or isn't), don't expect him to conform to any simplistic expectations.

[hamishspence]

*If* this guy is a blackguard (and I have nothing to say right now about whether he is or isn't), don't expect him to conform to any simplistic expectations.

Yup- blackguards can vary a great deal from the Card Carrying Villain type. Some might be Well Intentioned Extremists (there's one in Tome of Magic that is).

[Frozen_Feet]

I like the idea of Blackguard. First and foremost, they have charisma synergy, and I firmly recall they're stated to have a sense of drama and flair somewhere - that is, they don't aim to be just Evil, they aim to be Awesome Evil. Which would fit Tarquin like a glove.

About card-carrying villainy: I think he will, in fact, turn out to be one, milking everything out of Affable Evilness and being a Noble Demon, because it satisfies his love of narrative. Heck, it wouldn't suprise me at all if he arranged for Elan to grow separately so he'd one day try to overthrow him (*sniff* My boy's all grown up!), or something.

[Snake-Aes]

Yup- blackguards can vary a great deal from the Card Carrying Villain type. Some might be Well Intentioned Extremists (there's one in Tome of Magic that is).

Blackskull(Tormenta, books O Crânio e o Corvo and O Terceiro Deus) is a black guard. She goes around doing really nasty stuff but she's also the first to peacefully negotiate in order to reach her goals if negotiation proves more useful than mutilation.

PEOPLE
There's absolutely no evidence that Tarquin is anything other than a "Moderately strong, armor wearing, charming goon" and a general for the empire of blood long enough to be familiar and intimate with both Malack and the Empress.
The second closest conjecture you can make is that he is not Good aligned(good people just won't gamble on the safety of others without powerful reasons, and Tarquin did throw Haley off the parapet just to foil a spell).

[hamishspence]

There's absolutely no evidence that Tarquin is anything other than a "Moderately strong, armor wearing, charming goon" and a general for the empire of blood long enough to be familiar and intimate with both Malack and the Empress.
The second closest conjecture you can make is that he is not Good aligned(good people just won't gamble on the safety of others without powerful reasons, and Tarquin did throw Haley off the parapet just to foil a spell).

Yup- we don't know what he is yet- we can only make guesses. If we see something like a Fiendish Servant later on, that would be evidence for Blackguard.

Similarly- while "Not Good" is reasonable, it may be harder to narrow it down past this point. A Neutral person could maybe do similar things- a bit like a combination of the Bandit King from Paladin Blues, and the Monster in the Darkness.

Lawful- possibly- given he appears to attach a lot of importance to his word of honor.

[Beelzebub1111]

I'm going to say marshal, since it's a charisma based class that fits a military general.

[Mjoellnir]

First of all his lawful evil alignment is sure. This is not something Nale tells Elan but a flashback when they're both wondering why their parents broke up.

Personally I would say straight Fighter or Fighter/Rogue. While the heavy armour would block most of his rogue abilities he would still get a lot of skill points, all social skills (and perform) as class skills and Sneak Attack.

Blackguard would be possible too, but we haven't seen any evidence so far for that except that it would have been a smart choice for him.

[Snake-Aes]

First of all his lawful evil alignment is sure. This is not something Nale tells Elan but a flashback when they're both wondering why their parents broke up.

Was. Assuming back at #50 Rich already had the idea of using Crayon Flashbacks for unreliable narration, we can only grant that it is the past. While I also think he is probably lawful evil, we don't really have any present evidence towards that.
My class hypothesis are Fighter, for simplicity. Marshal, for charisma-based melee, and Knight for the attitude.

[LadyFirehawk]

I'm going to say marshal, since it's a charisma based class that fits a military general.

That was my thought as well.

[dehro]

I'm still gonna randomly shout bard, now and again...
either his concern with delivering his lines with the right drama and at the perfect moment is part of the star wars theme that kinda forces things to be enunciated in a certain way, or my hunch is right and there is at least a teensy bit of a bard under the heavy armor

[Kish]

Or he cares about drama and timing without being a bard or it being dependent on the Star Wars theme. Please don't claim exhaustivity where it doesn't exist. :smalltongue:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Fighter / paladin of tyranny / bard?

[Kish]

Fighter / paladin of tyranny / bard?
"Paladin=definitionally one of the good guys" in the OotS universe, remember?

Blackguards are in, variant paladins are out.

[Mjoellnir]

While I also think he is probably lawful evil, we don't really have any present evidence towards that.

You mean beside him having raised Nale to be lawful evil and being a high official in a lawful evil kingdom where it's legal to use slaves as footstools and to feed people to a dumb dragon?:smallbiggrin:

[dehro]

Or he cares about drama and timing without being a bard or it being dependent on the Star Wars theme. Please don't claim exhaustivity where it doesn't exist. :smalltongue:

I said it's a hunch..not that it's the universal truth..
just exposing my reasoning behind me thinking he's a bard...I know it need not be right

[Ertier]

Hehe.

My vote is for Blackguard or Knight (maybe both?).

Tarquin seems charismatic and intelligent, in fact, more intelligent than either of his sons.

In fact, despite what Nale says, I feel that Elan and Nale have a similar Intelligence score, because Nale is, well, a moron. His "plans" require little thought and seem like things any elementary-schooler could come up with, not to mention fail more often then they succeed.

Tarquin on the other hand improvises quickly and efficiently, and despite his love of theatrics and similarity to Elan, seems reasonably intelligent.

[sihnfahl]

In fact, despite what Nale says, I feel that Elan and Nale have a similar Intelligence score, because Nale is, well, a moron.
Nale's book-smart. He overthinks things and overdoes plans just to prove he IS smart. However, his plans require everything going the way he wants them... any deviation from his expectations (which tend to fly in the face of reality) and the entire house of cards falls.

Good int, low wis. Or, more to the point, he hasn't been exposed to the real world enough to realize his errors in planning...

Tarquin, however, has a good 20 years on his sons. He has both experience and wisdom on his side.

I'm thinking of him as a LE version of Roy after two decades of adventuring under his belt...

(Lessons learned such as: you don't jump onto a flying creature or get onto a high spot without being sure you won't be hurt if you fall off...)

[Beelzebub1111]

He probably isn't a bard, as he is indirectly quoted as saying that bards are underpowered.

[baerdith]

He probably isn't a bard, as he is indirectly quoted as saying that bards are underpowered.

Gee, a quote from the rebellous son who has an attitude?

That points more to him being a bard than anything else....................

[dgnslyr]

Well, since the Giant doesn't use too many splatbooks, I'd say fighter.
He might have a few levels in Bard, and the quote about them being underpowered might be personal experience; he got tired of buffing allies and wanted to contribute more directly; he's probably an ex-bard now, from being Lawful. A few levels in bard also explains his love of tropes and the dramatic.

As for the lawful evil part, there's the divorce flashback; LE seems appropriate for an "evil general," anyway. He seems lawful because he keeps his word, and evil seems better than neutral, seeing as how he's a sword(axe?)-for-hire who'll fight for pretty much anybody- at the right price.

[Haarkla]

I say Fighter/Rougue.

He, like Elan & Nale, seems rougish, without going to the obviously Evil extremes of the blackguard.

[The Pilgrim]

I say Fighter/Rougue.

He, like Elan & Nale, seems rougish, without going to the obviously Evil extremes of the blackguard.


ATON is a sisterhood, so unless Tarquin has a REALLY hidden past, I doub he'll have ranks in rouge.

Plus, I don't see he uses any kind of make-up. Through it's difficult to tell in a stick-art comic.

[sihnfahl]

As for the lawful evil part, there's the divorce flashback; LE seems appropriate for an "evil general," anyway. He seems lawful because he keeps his word, and evil seems better than neutral, seeing as how he's a sword(axe?)-for-hire who'll fight for pretty much anybody- at the right price.
Also keep in mind, for the Lawful part, that when Nale tried to reneg on the contract to conquer for the Empress, Tarquin -fought his own son- to ensure the contract was fulfilled.

[Qwertystop]

I think there is a class in 4th edition (warlord) that, if i remember correctly, is similar to fighter but more leadership based (high CHA). If there is something like that in 3.5 then that would work.

[AstralFire]

I think there is a class in 4th edition (warlord) that, if i remember correctly, is similar to fighter but more leadership based (high CHA). If there is something like that in 3.5 then that would work.

Marshal. It's technically a pretty underpowered class - that wouldn't stop Rich, though - but I also suspect it might be the type of class that he might consider redundant from a story role. After all, being a General is traditionally less about your combat abilities and more about your strategizing and leadership, which D&D does a poor job modeling at best.

That said, my best bets are:
Fighter
Knight
Marshal

I'd guess minor magic is more of the mother's influence - IIRC Nale has very few levels in Mage, while Elan uses spells a bit more often.

[sihnfahl]

IIRC Nale has very few levels in Mage
Sorcerer. And he can cast Suggestion (Sor/Wiz 3).

[AstralFire]

That shoots that evidence, though I still stand by the idea.

Also, dear god 'Mage'.

The last time I played D&D was around 2 or 3 years ago now. Since then it's been all World of Warcraft (mmo, not the P&P) or Star Wars Saga Edition for me.

[Snake-Aes]

... Mage is a term used to describe arcane casters in general.

[AstralFire]

... Mage is a term used to describe arcane casters in general.

Yesssssss, I know, and also was what became the Wizard, IIRC. But I actually wrote Mage because I was thinking Mage as a specific class, because I haven't D&Ded in years.

[Nerdanel]

Tarquin reminds me of pre-lich Xykon, only (probably) LE Fighter instead of CE Sorcerer. I can feel Tarquin's charisma oozing off the page, and there's evidence that Xykon was born with good Str.

[dgnslyr]

Mostly fighter, for sure, if we're just going by core classes. I think he's an ex-bard, though, because Elan refers to their shared love of tropes as "bardic tradition," as shown in strip 670. I'd say he started taking levels in fighter when he felt like he wasn't contributing enough, and became more lawful later, probably as a general.

[Scarlet Knight]

Mostly fighter, for sure, if we're just going by core classes. I think he's an ex-bard, though, because Elan refers to their shared love of tropes as "bardic tradition," as shown in strip 670. I'd say he started taking levels in fighter when he felt like he wasn't contributing enough, and became more lawful later, probably as a general.

How about he starts as an old edition bard, realizes it's "underpowered", and upgrades with the new edition to a prestige class "Marshall" ?

[Gift Jeraff]

"Paladin=definitionally one of the good guys" in the OotS universe, remember?

Blackguards are in, variant paladins are out.
Eh, nothing stops Rich from doing something like:

Paladin of Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter: I'm a paladin of freedom/tyranny/slaughter!
Other Character: Wait, I didn't know we were using any variant rules. :smallconfused:

Or something like that.

[FFKonoko]

When Nale said that his father taught him that bards are underpowered...perhaps he didn't meant it in the sense that fighting against his father the bard, growing up around him, gave him that lesson. Of course in the panel showing them fighting Nale was pretty heavily losing, which might be an issue.
I like the idea that the General started as a bard then multi-classed, or took a special prestige class like Elan. It'd be interesting if he turned out to have similarities to certain Diplomacy abusing builds and could fit well.

[Icedaemon]

One is yet another member of the camp which believes that Tarquin is a Marshal by class. It makes sense, since he is an armoured melee warrior with use for high charisma and intellect, both of which are practically a marshal's prime statistics.

Yes, the class is from an obscure book which has not been used yet, but this does not outrule the book's use, especially given how he is a secondary character from one PC's background.

He is not likely a knight, because a knight, evil or otherwise, would surely feel that bull-rushing a girl and potentially causing her death is dishonourable.

He is very unlikely to have levels in any form of bard, since other than a dramatic flair, which both sons also inherited despite one clearly not being a bard, there is no conceivable reasion that one can find to see him as one of those. Besides, why wear heavy armour if he is a bard?

Fighter is definitely possible, but given how that class already needs high strength and constitution and would also benefit from good dexterity. Good intelligence and charisma tacked onto that would really need good rolls to be effective.

Blackguard, which seems to be the class of choice for the average gubbin in the playground from reading this thread, is certainly also possible, but I see it as less likely than using Marshal.

[electricbee]

Would either Knight (PHBII) or Crusader (ToB) be a good fit. Got rid of my 3.5 books so i can't look up the details anymore.

[Kish]

Eh, nothing stops Rich from doing something like:

Paladin of Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter: I'm a paladin of freedom/tyranny/slaughter!
Other Character: Wait, I didn't know we were using any variant rules. :smallconfused:

Or something like that.
Perhaps not. But there is also nothing to gain from doing that, unless the entire point of doing so is to make a joke about how completely redundant those classes are in any world which has blackguards and Holy Liberators, and we know blackguards exist in the OotS universe because Sabine tried to convert Miko to one.

[Kaiyanwang]

Fighter/Blackguard.

[Coidzor]

It'd be interesting if he turned out to have similarities to certain Diplomacy abusing builds and could fit well.

So far I don't see him as much of a diplomancer after that whole Haley's round, perky eyes thing.

Although he did manage to make her more offended by his sexual commentary than by throwing her out the window.

[Gift Jeraff]

Perhaps not. But there is also nothing to gain from doing that, unless the entire point of doing so is to make a joke about how completely redundant those classes are in any world which has blackguards and Holy Liberators, and we know blackguards exist in the OotS universe because Sabine tried to convert Miko to one.
Yeah, I suppose. It's unfortunate because I prefer the symmetry of the variant paladins over LG-only Paladins & any Evil Blackguards. (Though I do like how Blackguards are more than just copypasta versions of Paladins and are allowed to do Good acts, unlike Paladins of Tyranny/Slaughter.)

For the record, I'm thinking Tarquin is an Ex-Bard/Fighter/Blackguard. (Similar to Nale: spontaneous arcane caster/Fighter/class with Sneak Attack. And yes, I'm aware that Nale's multiclassing is supposed to mirror a bard's abilities.)

[The Pilgrim]

Given the amount of armor Tarquin tends to bear, it doesn't seem reasonable to think he has any kind of arcane caster class/multiclass/ex-class. Also the kind of helmet he uses doesn't help spells with verbal component neither.

Yes, yes, of course, there is always some feat or variation or freaky stuff that helps casting with heavy armor and all that... but not even Nale goes through that amount of complication.

[Icedaemon]

So far I don't see him as much of a diplomancer after that whole Haley's round, perky eyes thing.

Although he did manage to make her more offended by his sexual commentary than by throwing her out the window.

This can be attributed to overconfidence. He is a powerful general in the fortress where he keeps much of his army, safe amongst friends. He could well believe to be able to afford to not think through every single thing he says.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, I suppose. It's unfortunate because I prefer the symmetry of the variant paladins over LG-only Paladins & any Evil Blackguards. (Though I do like how Blackguards are more than just copypasta versions of Paladins and are allowed to do Good acts, unlike Paladins of Tyranny/Slaughter.)

I intensely dislike the symetry. The Alignments ARE NOT SYMETRICAL.

Champion of Good who acts according to a rigorous code is LAWFUL because of the part about acting according to a rigorous code. The same should apply to any highly limited by code Evil variant.

But in practice Evil is much more varied than Good. Evil fighting Evil is NORMAL. Good fighting Good is a rare aberation. Evil can commit any of hundreds of crimes for any of a nearly unlimited number of reasons. Good has to act to protect the innocent and the motives must be respect for life and dignity ext....

Since Evil isn't one side, there's no real reason for Evil as a side to have Paladin like champions. In fact giving Evil such champions implies a unity of purpose to Evil which is totally absent. I suppose you could have Champions of Sadism, and Champions of Greed, and Champions of Racism (one for each race or group), and Champions of Rape, and Champions of ....

But what's the point to a Champion of "Evil"? Who does he serve? What goal does he have? What types of crimes does he commit? If a Paladin finds two Good sides in a fight he tries to bring about a peaceful resolution, what does a champion of "Evil" do when he finds two evil sides in a fight?

There is no true Evil equivalent to a Paladin because while it's sort of reasonable to treat Good as a side with it's own representatives, it's totally unreasonable to treat Evil as a side. Just what does a Paladin of Evil represent?

There is no Chaotic equivalent for a much more obvious reason! Chaotic "champion of a cause who acts according to a rigorous code" is an oxymoron. Even if the code is to promote freedom and liberty (normally chaotic values) the CHARACTER acting according to that code is acting Lawfully since HIS actions are all in accordance with the ridgid code and he has a Lawful alignment.

Blackguard works because it ISN'T an anti-paladin, because there ISN'T any rigid requirement to always act "evil" or to be a champion of "evil" and inspire others toward "evil". It's just a class for selfish bastards taking power from the forces of supernatural Evil.

[Gift Jeraff]

I agree 100%, but I just like symmetry on account of a slight case of OCD. (Just as how I dislike that there's no core Chaotic-only class to counter Monk or can't-be-Chaotic classes to counter Bard and Barbarian.) It has nothing to do with the principles, just my own perks...:smallredface:

EDIT: And just to support your idea, look how many Evil sides there are in the main conflict versus Good sides. (The only real conflicts between supposed agents of Good are OOTS/Miko and arguably Roy/Eugene.) All the current Good main characters are united to defeat the forces of Evil, whereas, as Redcloak and the IFCC point out, Evil cannot really act as one big side/family.

[tomandtish]

EDIT: And just to support your idea, look how many Evil sides there are in the main conflict versus Good sides. (The only real conflicts between supposed agents of Good are OOTS/Miko and arguably Roy/Eugene.) All the current Good main characters are united to defeat the forces of Evil, whereas, as Redcloak and the IFCC point out, Evil cannot really act as one big side/family.

Interesting. You know, I think the general assumption has been that the elven strike force has entered to liberate the city for Hinjo and his people (and presumably that's what Hinjo believes). That would make for an interesting twist...

Hinjo: "Hey, Thanks for helping to get our city back".

Elf general: "Your city???"

As for the General, I'm going Bard with levels in Dashing Swordsman (or a similar obscure prestige class).
Doubtful, but...

[Ancalagon]

Although he did manage to make her more offended by his sexual commentary than by throwing her out the window.

I think her biggest issue with him is not the window-incident or the eyes-comment. It's the fact he's the man who brought up Nale.

[Procyonpi]

Definitely Fighter. Rich doesn't do a lot of non core stuff, and there aren't a whole lot of core classes for which heavy armor makes any sense. I mean, it's basically fighters, clerics, and Paladins, and we know that he at least was, at some point, LE. Cleric just doesn't make sense with his flavor, or with the fact that he adventured with Malack. And I think rich may have even said Elan's father was a fighter when they were going through the back story after meeting Nale.

[hamishspence]

And I think rich may have even said Elan's father was a fighter when they were going through the back story after meeting Nale.

Not as far as I can tell- "cold and ruthless general" is the only thing said:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

Although, Nale's monologue in strip 46:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html

does have: "Why, it seems like just yesterday my father took me aside and told me..."

Raising the question of what Tarquin told Nale.

Maybe something about the Dungeon of Dorukan, and the Talisman.

[ss49]

1st Edition bards could be Lawful; I can't find my PHB atm but the 1980 Rogue's Gallery lists lawful bards.

1st Edition Bards were also a proto-prestige class, needing levels of fighter and thief as prerequisites.

So it is at least possible.

[Kish]

1st Edition bards could be Lawful; I can't find my PHB atm but the 1980 Rogue's Gallery lists lawful bards.

1st Edition Bards were also a proto-prestige class, needing levels of fighter and thief as prerequisites.

So it is at least possible.
Second Edition bards, like 3.xed druids, could be any alignment with the word Neutral in the title. Therefore, they could be Lawful Neutral (but neither other Lawful alignment).

Could 1ed bards be Lawful Evil?

[Carduus]

In 1st ed, there was no good or evil. It was Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic.

[Kish]

Sorry, not true. You're thinking of 0D&D--what used to just be called D&D, as contrasted with AD&D.

1ed AD&D had all nine alignments, although their descriptions were quite insane and suffered from "Lawful Good is most good, Chaotic Evil is most evil, and if you're Chaotic Neutral that can be interpreted to mean you're worse than Lawful Evil."

[deathali'helper]

I got my money on duo classing bard and fight, high charisma and strenth, low intelegence

[hamishspence]

Also, early editions of 0D&D (Eric Holmes edition) had 5 alignments- LG, CG, N, LE, CE.

[Carduus]

Sorry, not true. You're thinking of 0D&D--what used to just be called D&D, as contrasted with AD&D.

1ed AD&D had all nine alignments, although their descriptions were quite insane and suffered from "Lawful Good is most good, Chaotic Evil is most evil, and if you're Chaotic Neutral that can be interpreted to mean you're worse than Lawful Evil."

Ugh, you're right. I even have a few Monster's Manuals from that era, so I should know better. Play on.

[Herald Alberich]

I got my money on duo classing bard and fight, high charisma and strenth, low intelegence

What about the General suggests that he's unintelligent? He seems very clever and crafty, more so with every new strip he's in.

[Detrinex]

My money's on cross-class Bard and Fighter.

[DrGonzo]

I say fighter with an above average intelligence. Like Roy actually.

[Darklord Xavez]

He's a Commoner!

But seriously, he's almost definitely a fighter. Because in the OOTS world, all of the PC classes are balanced.
-Xavez

[FeanorFireHeart]

I think hes a fighter. I dont think he is much else and didnt multiclass. Nale probably multi-classed to 1-up his dad.

[Shadowleaf]

Non-core: Marshal.
Core: Fighter with Leadership.