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View Full Version : If DnD took place in the 17th-18th centuries, what would the monsters be?



Vitruviansquid
2010-05-13, 01:07 AM
I'm currently writing an RPG system that takes the spirit of DnD and puts it into a setting around age of muskets and powdered wigs. Basically, think of how it would look if Dungeons and Dragons was rolled forward by three or four hundred years. Now, I was wondering, what kind of monster manual would this game have?

For inspiration, here are the classes that the protagonists will be:

Cuirassier (Physical Power) - Big guys in bullet-proof plate armor, probably holding a cannon with a sword-sized bayonet on it. They represent musket age militaries taken to the nth degree.

Rake (Physical Power) - Dapper "gentlemen" who use derringer pistols, sword canes, and other small and concealable weapons. They're like the "rogues" of the setting, but with a more (faux)-aristocratic bent.

Inquisitor (Social Power) - Sinister holy men whose powers are based on sermons of salvation and damnation. They're based on the negative aspects of religion, the persecutions and witch hunts, as much as the positive sides, offering a more anti-hero vibe than other classes.

Rhetorician (Social Power) - Political thinkers and speakers taken to the nth degree, Rhetoricians use word magic based on political discourse and debate. In DnD 4e terms, they would be the controller class.

Naturalist (Scientific Power) - Mixing the most sublime elemental magic with technological know-how, Naturalists can blast enemies with steam, lightning, and other unconventional weapons. Imagine if Benjamin Franklin didn't only experiment with electricity, but could shoot thunderbolts out of his hand and developed a weaponized lightning gun.

Polymath (Scientific Power) - Representing the... shadier side of the "sciences," Polymaths play more of a support role of buffing/debuffing with their powers of alchemy, astrology, and other pseudo-sciences.

Lycan 01
2010-05-13, 01:24 AM
Werewolves, vampires, and other typical mythological creatures were still pretty "common" in those times...


Springheel Jack and the Jersey Devil had a few sightings around those times, I think.

Bigfoot/Sasquach was sighted in the Americas, and there was actually a cited report of an angry mob in the Florida colony getting butchered in the woods by a man-like creature they set out to hunt down.

Mad Science brings about lots of bad things. Dr. Jeckle & Mr. Hyde, the Invisible Man, and Frankenstein being good literary examples...

Pirates of the Carribean had some monsters in it. :smalltongue:

Croverus
2010-05-13, 01:35 AM
And you could always borrow monsters from Call of Cythulu.

Thurbane
2010-05-13, 01:37 AM
The d20 Past supplement might offer some handy advice.

Skeppio
2010-05-13, 01:43 AM
Animated Steam Train
Dapper Golem
British Elemental
Tea Ooze

...Man, I've been playing too much Henry Hatsworth.

PId6
2010-05-13, 01:44 AM
First of all, that sounds really really awesome! :smalltongue:

For enemies in general though, I feel like 17th-18th century settings would best be represented by humanoid enemies. It's hard for me to have enough suspension of disbelief when imagining dragons and trolls alongside steam engines and natural philosophers, but I can easily see campaigns involving dark cults summoning demons, corrupt clergymen laying plots, great emperors calling armadas. Since by that time Europe itself was thoroughly explored and there weren't many true wildernesses left, it's hard to imagine any giant creatures lurking in the countryside.

On the other hand, that period in time was also very much about exploration and trade, and there were many frontier places where such beasts could still lurk. I'd imagine your typical fantasy creatures would have no trouble fitting in those unexplored places. Things like great birds, elementals and trolls living in vast wildernesses, giant dire animals roaming alongside lizardfolk in distant jungles, sphinxes and dragons hiding amidst the dunes of great deserts. It reminds me somewhat of Eberron, where few monsters can be found roaming in civilized nations, but are easily found by explorers in far off lands like Xen'drik.

In actual civilized lands with muskets and steam engines and natural philosophers, you could have much more subtle and insidious monsters. Things like vampires, lycanthropes, hags, shapeshifters, and possession demons; things that can hide among the populace and appear as humanoids. Thus, the setting lends itself for various play-styles; more political or investigatory games would base themselves more heavily in cities and civilized nations where danger comes from other humanoids or humanoid-appearing creatures, while the kick-in-the-door style games happen more often in the exploration setting, with the PCs exploring far off lands seeking excitement, glory and gold.

Ormur
2010-05-13, 02:22 AM
The 17th century was the hight of witch hunting so witches, devils, familiars and other such mythological evil creatures are still present. You might want to tone down the exotic and Greek inspired monsters and use more folklore and religion monsters. Sea monsters could also be prominent since this was the age of sail.

Humans and monsters that appear human like werewolves would seem to fit that period better, maybe just because the world was better explored by then. Vampires are arguably much more at home in such a setting than in a medieval D&D setting. When going further into the 18th century and the enlightenment I have trouble thinking of appropriate monsters since it's all about rationality and 19th century romanticism was still in the future but mythological creatures have been invented right up to the present. Ghosts are still appropriate, I guess. Perhaps parties of explorers meeting strange mythycal creatures in far away places while mapping the earth and watching eclipses. The 18th century sees the beginning of scientific expeditions.

I can foresee all sorts of hilarity with aristocratic scientists battling dinosaurs and hostile native magicians in-between teatimes on their way to determining the length of the equator.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 02:30 AM
Fairies were still very much a part of popular belief around those times. Definitely look into those. Pixies, boggarts, gnomes, fairy rings and mounds, that sort of thing. And witches, of course, and ghosts. Actually, there's lots of really great ghost stories from that sort of time. Like child-ghosts, who died before they were Christened, who haunt dark laneways waiting for a name... And the Headless Horseman, stuff like that.
Then, as mentioned, there's the stuff from journeys to far off lands. Geese that hatch from barnacles, sea serpents, unicorns that "aren't as lovely as reported", that sort of thing. Maybe - with this being a fantasy thing and all - some horrors of evolution. Not sure exactly what that means, but it sounds kinda cool.

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 03:56 AM
Some D&D monsters are actually better suited to this era than the medieval/early Renaissance of most D&D.

Flesh Golems, for example (Frankenstein's monster)

Heroes of Horror also mentions that the "suave vampire" is more appropriate to more modern times- Varney, Lord Ruthven, Carmilla, and so on.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 04:11 AM
Oh, also, feeding into the Frankenstien thing, grave robbing and weird experiments. Necromancy with a different taste, perhaps. Probably also worth looking at Edgar Allen Poe. I may be getting a bit late there, but still worth a look.
edit: Oh! And feeding in turn into the "mysterious things on the edge of exploration", monsters being brought back for show (and, perhaps, escaped?), a la King Kong and the like. Creatures were being caught and collected all over the place... With that in mind, maybe look at international beasties like the Yowie and Bunyip, and the South American bloodsucker whose name escapes me right now but I'll think of at the exact moment someone else posts it.

Killer Angel
2010-05-13, 04:16 AM
Some D&D monsters are actually better suited to this era than the medieval/early Renaissance of most D&D.

Flesh Golems, for example (Frankenstein's monster)


Not counting Vampires (Stoker's dracula) and Ghosts (haunted houses), etc.
But these were already mentioned.


When going further into the 18th century and the enlightenment I have trouble thinking of appropriate monsters since it's all about rationality and 19th century romanticism was still in the future but mythological creatures have been invented right up to the present.

Since by that time Europe itself was thoroughly explored and there weren't many true wildernesses left, it's hard to imagine any giant creatures lurking in the countryside.




Then go to Africa. King Salomon's mines, Nile river's springs, etc.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 04:19 AM
Why not counting them?

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 04:22 AM
and the South American bloodsucker whose name escapes me right now but I'll think of at the exact moment someone else posts it.

The Chupacabra. It was statted out in Dragon magazine.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 04:24 AM
Seems it was further from my conciousness than I thought. Oh well, there you go.

Killer Angel
2010-05-13, 04:28 AM
Why not counting them?

It's hard to have a body count if you slay a bunch of ghosts... :smalltongue:

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 04:32 AM
O...kay :smallconfused: Still don't see why you wouldn't count them, and what a body count has to do with anything aside from the punnage.
Really, you've just baffled me.

RdMarquis
2010-05-13, 04:33 AM
Interesting. It'll be nice to see how this turns out. Is the Rhetorician anything like the Mediator class in Final Fantasy Tactics? Because it would be very cool to convince a weakened enemy to join your team.

Anyway, as for an enemy suggestion, have you considered humans that are based on the national armies and such of the time?

Towards the end of the late 18th century, the earliest of several organizations characterized by mastery of the martial arts and religious principles rebelled against the Qing Government of China. For example, the White Lotus Society and the Eight Trigrams, which were Buddhist sects.

Later organizations (1800's) believed that through a combination of meditation and religious techniques could protect them from firearms.

Try writing up some enemies that actually have spells or skills that afford this type of protection.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 04:36 AM
Oh (again), Napoleon with dragons. It's been done. Might wanna look into it, maybe they have other monsters. Forget the name of the book, Lindameer or something. Someone will tell you. I ought to read it...

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 04:38 AM
Temaraire series. It's quite good.

The Midshipman Blithe series is similar, but the world is not Earth, and the dragons are sea dragons, with the ships being built around the bodies of the dragons.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 04:41 AM
See? Tolja someone would tell you.
By the bye, that could make a moderately large difference to our advice: will this be set on Earth, with all its history and exploration dates and the like, or an alternate world inspired by that particular point in Earth's history, or moved up from "medieval Europeanish" to "pre-Industrial Europeanish/Earthish"?

Shademan
2010-05-13, 04:54 AM
goblins from the free republic of evil, offcourse. armed with fancy uniforms, muskets and cannons. led by a ogre officer with a biiiig mustache

Killer Angel
2010-05-13, 05:00 AM
O...kay :smallconfused: Still don't see why you wouldn't count them, and what a body count has to do with anything aside from the punnage.
Really, you've just baffled me.

Ah, I see... i think it's a case of misunderstanding, and it's my fault.
I translate literally an italian expression, where "not counting" can mean also "not forgetting that we must count..."

When I read your question "Why not counting them?", I thought you were ironic, hence my jocking answer on counting something not countable.

Hope this helps.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 05:03 AM
When Italians say "don't count", they mean "don't forget to count". Gotcha :smallwink:
Just to be safe, I'll assume that any time an Italian says something, they mean the opposite.

So... I guess Albis is both extremely male and extremely female.

Killer Angel
2010-05-13, 05:10 AM
When Italians say "don't count", they mean "don't forget to count". Gotcha :smallwink:
Just to be safe, I'll assume that any time an Italian says something, they mean the opposite.


I didn't say "means always", I said "can mean also".
it should be clear when someone use a meaning instead of the other, given the contest, the way of speaking, the
Meh, internet don't help. :smallredface:


So... I guess Albis is both extremely male and extremely female.

well, you're neither naga, nor yuan-ti... :smalltongue:

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 05:14 AM
Hey, I'm Australian, we say it like it is :smallwink:
Big-butt.

stenver
2010-05-13, 05:26 AM
Aliens, UFO, Creatures living in another galaxy, Outer spacers, Species living in another solar system and of course, someone who doesnt live on earth.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 05:31 AM
Soooo... Extraterrestrials, then.
Dunno if that was really a thing around 1600-1800...

Asheram
2010-05-13, 05:36 AM
You might want to look into the X-crawl setting.
It's far away from perfect, but it gives a look into "modern" history with monsters.

paddyfool
2010-05-13, 05:41 AM
So, monsters from the Age of Reason and/or Age of Enlightenment. Here's a few ideas:

Archeology took off during the Enlightenment, so if you want a dungeon crawl with more of the greek- or egyptian- (or any other specific ancient culture) inspired monsters, it's a pretty easy shoehorn if you say "some archeologists have disappeared while exploring the Pyramid of ...", or similar). If you want them digging around under a city... well, London didn't have proper sewers until the 19th century (although that didn't stop the author of "Lempriere's Dictionary" from imagining some cabal of villains with artificially extended lives meeting in secret locations under London), but Rome's sewers date back to 800 BC, and they had a pretty complete system from 100 AD onwards, so there's lots of time for monsters to have made their home in there. Then you've got locations like the Paris catacombs etc. (imagine the fun you could have with this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DJJ_1_Catacombes_de_Paris.jpg) and spells along the "Raise Dead" line).

The Enlightenment was also, obviously, a time of revolution. So you've got lots of political schenanigens you can involve, and can freely introduce fantasy elements to (what if the French Royal Family were actually shapeshifted [monster X] or possessed by [monster Y], and the revolution was being orchestrated by their ancient enemies, [monster Z]? (Insert vampires/doppelgangers/dragons/whatever as you prefer).

And then, of course, there's the clockwork-esque early Steampunkery you could stick in, which is always fun.

Eldan
2010-05-13, 06:04 AM
Actually, the first thing I thought of was the La Bête du Gévaudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_g%C3%A9vaudan). There's also several movies based on it. At least one is quite silly with Kung-fu fighting indians.

Ashtar
2010-05-13, 06:29 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned Masque of the Red Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masque_of_the_Red_Death_(Ravenloft)), the old Ravenloft campaign setting published in 1994. It does show Gothic Earth at the end of the 19th Century, but I'd guess it'd be fairly adaptable to your needs or at least a good reference.

In Mid 18th, the British rule of India allows you to get all kinds of demons, sects, Rakshasa (up to you to decide if the are supernatural, or humans, or both).

Killer Angel
2010-05-13, 07:03 AM
Soooo... Extraterrestrials, then.
Dunno if that was really a thing around 1600-1800...

usually not, but it can be done.
Moore in the 2° vol. of the League of Ex. gentleman, rewrote the war of the worlds in a victorian setting.
At the end of Predator 2, the predators give to Glover (as a tribute) a 1800 flintlock pistol, evidence of their past hunting expeditions.

Kind of weird.

paddyfool
2010-05-13, 07:20 AM
Moore in the 2° vol. of the League of Ex. gentleman, rewrote the war of the worlds in a victorian setting.


Heh, no. The original book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_worlds) was written in victorian times, in a then present-day setting, just like the original books behind the League's members and other adversaries. EDIT: If you like, the LoEG was all just one giant fanfic crossover.

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 07:34 AM
And there were, I think, a lot of UFO sightings in the 19th century- only the UFOs were described as airships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship

Coplantor
2010-05-13, 07:45 AM
Animated Steam Train
Dapper Golem
British Elemental
Tea Ooze

...Man, I've been playing too much Henry Hatsworth.

I want the 3.5 stats of that, NOW!

Killer Angel
2010-05-13, 07:47 AM
Heh, no. The original book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_worlds) was written in victorian times, in a then present-day setting, just like the original books behind the League's members and other adversaries

...(what a mistake from me! I'm stuck with Orson Welles)
I stand corrected.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 07:52 AM
Hamish: For a moment there I thought you were going to talk about the "ufos in art" thing, in which case I was gonna smack you with this (http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_eng.htm) :smallwink:

But, of course, just because in our world it has a particular explaination, doesn't mean the explaination's gonna be the same in this one...

klemdakherzbag
2010-05-13, 08:06 AM
I want the 3.5 stats of that, NOW!

You need to queue now sir...

Ormagoden
2010-05-13, 08:25 AM
Werewolves, vampires, and Grue don't exist.

The monsters would be people.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-13, 08:33 AM
We Are The Demons?

Coplantor
2010-05-13, 08:37 AM
We Are The Demons?

The monster manual is made of people!

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 08:37 AM
Underneath the mask...

Deja vu of a deja vu? :smallconfused:

Another_Poet
2010-05-13, 10:10 AM
I think it would look exactly like this setting (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=121). (The link has the .pdfs. You can find some of the out-of-print hard copy books here (http://www.nobleknight.com/ViewProducts.asp_Q_ProductLineID_E_2137417835_A_Ma nufacturerID_E_1075616712_A_CategoryID_E_12_A_Genr eID_E_).)

Seriously, even if you're not going to use the Iron Kingdoms setting as inspiration, its Monsternomicon I & II will contain many thematically appropriate creatures with 3.x stats for you. Though it sounds like you're using 4e.

Telonius
2010-05-13, 10:21 AM
This (http://www.strangescience.net/stmons.htm)might be helpful. My personal favorite:
http://www.strangescience.net/pics/mareas2.jpg

wormwood
2010-05-13, 10:57 AM
Flesh Golems, for example (Frankenstein's monster)


I feel a strong desire to point out, despite the complete lack of relevance to the topic at hand, that nowhere in the book does it say that Frankenstein's monster is made of human remains (as far as I can recall). It does state that Frankenstein studied corpses in his research but it makes a point of not mentioning any of the details of how the monster was constructed. The sewing together of body parts is entirely a creation of Hollywood.

Serpentine
2010-05-13, 11:26 AM
Mmmm... I haven't read the book, but Wikipedia seems to be leaning otherwise.

While the exact details of the monster's construction are left ambiguous, Frankenstein explains that he collected bones from charnel-houses, and "disturbed, with profane fingers, the tremendous secrets of the human frame." He also says that the dissecting room and slaughter-house furnished many of his materials. Frankenstein explains that he had been forced to make the monster much larger than a normal man—he estimates it to be about eight feet tall—in part because of the difficulty in replicating the minute parts of the human body.

Noedig
2010-05-13, 11:40 AM
A personal favourite of mine as far as 17th to 18th century is in fact the Iron Kingdoms game. As to monsters, I draw heavily from the works of Stephen King, specifically his Salem series of short stories and books, and two of my personal favourites are his short story that involves a copy of the Necronomicon, and a cursed village (Worm Beneath perhaps?) and the terrifyingly haunted house with skittering and voices in the walls (the name escapes me). Lovecraft has his place but I find his monsters entirely too confusing and I'm not running a CoC game after all.

I love the idea for the classes, whoever put them out. The Church Inquisitors? Can I get a witness? (lol) The Rhetorician? Intriguing concept that looks like a beautiful way to control the masses. The gentleman rogue? Classic.

You've got the pieces for a great setting.

Noedig
2010-05-13, 11:43 AM
A class idea came to me. Its much along the lines of the artificer, but decidedly more steam-punky. Imagine someone creating and leading along one of those great behemoths called warjacks, albeit slightly retooled and re-fluffed. That would be awesome.

hangedman1984
2010-05-13, 11:53 AM
two words:

Air Krakens (http://brassgoggles.co.uk/blog/201003/air-krakens-giving-you-problems-research-has-answers)

Noedig
2010-05-13, 12:01 PM
Lol the sacrifice of the orphans will be remembered for all time.
Beautiful.

Rappy
2010-05-13, 12:02 PM
The gazetteer for the Northern Crown (magical Colonial America) has some monsters for just this type of setting, such as haints (ghoulish humanoids), lake monsters, and Native American giants and fey.

Redrat2k6
2010-05-13, 12:19 PM
No one has mentioned Warhammer. I would say, think Warhammer.

Witchhunters rooting out Deamons, Mutations, Undead and Cults.

Armies of Rat-men scouring the sewers, and raping and pillaging by night.

Building tension and misunderstanding with old Elven nations.

Threats from rising orcish warbands.

A mountain troll gobbling people up in the northern territories.

Monsters that used to be men driven mad by diseases spread by undead.

That all sounds pretty cool to me.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-13, 12:20 PM
If you're going to include the Americas, you might as well include the Orient as well, Cathay and India, fakirs of inhuman ability and dragons of serpentine form, sacrifices to dark and inhospitable gods.

Quincunx
2010-05-13, 12:43 PM
Even if the Americas aren't included, What supernatural threats would you pit against George Washington (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118642) had many excellent ideas for the time period.

Rixx
2010-05-13, 05:37 PM
Gremlins! They are a product of that time period, said to be mischievous sprites who tinker with machines (especially aircrafts), explaining why they seem to fail without reason.

Swordgleam
2010-05-13, 06:58 PM
I have no monsters to contribute, I just want to second the "it's awesome" motion.

shadow_archmagi
2010-05-13, 07:01 PM
As with every time period, Daleks can be used

RdMarquis
2010-05-13, 07:27 PM
I think someone here mentioned clockwork based enemies already, but I want to note that they are quite appropriate to the 17th-18th century setting. The term "android" actually originated around this time.

Using actual musicians as a frame of reference, a man named Jacques de Vaucanson managed to construct life-like musicians that played like the real thing. Complex clockwork toys that played music were a fad among the wealthy in Europe and Asia. There was a legend that Rene Descartes created a clockwork "automoton" to replace his late daughter.

They don't have to be robots, of course. It would add an element of chance if they were simply deadly machines, unable to distinguish from friend or foe that the bad guys unleashed on the battlefield, hoping for the best.

randomhero00
2010-05-13, 07:38 PM
I think you can go with practically any type of monster, except maybe dragons. Its just, the more mythical, the rarer it needs to be. So trolls for example would only be in the furthest frontiers and there would only be 2 to 6 per country. Think sasquatch level of rarity. So rather than out right banning certain monsters I think you should come up with a system of commonness-rarity.

And of course, give the mythical monsters more mundane qualities. Like a dragon would be a big lizard without wings that's about the size of a modern day pick up truck. It would be intelligent but not be able to speak. A troll would be a rare type of ape that has amazing healing qualities. etc.

Vitruviansquid
2010-05-13, 09:13 PM
Thanks for all the good ideas, everyone. As interesting as are the monsters that haunted the imaginations of people in this time period, I'd also like to hear about how you guys would spin and update the monsters from "normal" medieval fantasy settings to fit the new time. For instance, I came up with a new identity for orcs:

Orcs are classically associated with violence and rapacity, unless we were to count the noble savage Warcraft 3-esque type. In an Age of Enlightenment setting, I picture orcs to be the ultimate expression of imperialist war-mongering, the fellows who would eagerly go to massacre the people of a foreign land if it can slightly lower the price of tea in their empire.

As well, orc warriors would change because of the paradigm shifts that come with gunpowder weapons. Instead of stressing individual bravery and physical strength, orcs enjoy nothing more than discipline, conformity, obedience to authority, and keeping one's head under fire. Their main folly is inflexibility and suffering from "stand-out-in-a-field-wearing-a-bright-coat-waiting-to-get-shot syndrome."

@RdMarquis: What a coincidence. I just attended a lecture today where the professor talked about him and his automata. Automata are definitely very fascinating as well as being very very very creepy.

Skeppio
2010-05-13, 10:03 PM
I want the 3.5 stats of that, NOW!

I'd like to, but I have no idea how to create monsters like that. If anyone else wants to have a go at it, be my guest :smallbiggrin:.

RdMarquis
2010-05-13, 10:13 PM
@RdMarquis: What a coincidence. I just attended a lecture today where the professor talked about him and his automata. Automata are definitely very fascinating as well as being very very very creepy.

As did I (That's were I got the idea). You wouldn't happen to be a student at UC Davis, would you?

Serpentine
2010-05-14, 02:47 AM
I think you can go with practically any type of monster, except maybe dragons.As I mentioned, there is already at least one book that has dragons in the Napoleonic era. I haven't read it yet, so I dunno how "magical" they are, but they're there.

hamishspence
2010-05-14, 03:15 AM
They are about as intelligent as humans, and can talk, but the setting seems to lack magic- the dragons and the humans don't (as I recall) cast spells.

Like D&D- there is variation in colour and breath weapon. Some dragons spit acid, some breathe fire, and the main dragon character (Temeraire) has a sonic "breath" referred to as "the divine wind"- as do other dragons of his type- called Celestials.

Ormur
2010-05-14, 03:18 AM
The Temeraire books are the ones with Dragons in the Napoleonic wars. They're not explicitly magical but they have many of the abilities connected with mythical dragons and they're at least a smart as humans. Some breathe fire, others spit acid and a few Chinese ones breathe divine wind (sonic?). They also range from ridiculously big to a bit larger than horses. Those that don't have special abilities are still useful in melee against other dragons and they're strapped with platforms for riflemen. They're mostly used in areal combat but later they're used for troop transport and raids.

It shows that you can probably incorporate pretty much every D&D monster in the setting.

Edit: Ah, partially Ninja'd. The books include a few notes on dragons by naturalists so they at least have an anatomy that can be studied by scientific method. They're flight is explained by helium sacks within their body but the fire and divine wind are a bit iffy from a realistic perspective.

Vitruviansquid
2010-05-14, 03:25 AM
As did I (That's were I got the idea). You wouldn't happen to be a student at UC Davis, would you?

... you wouldn't happen to be in History 10B with Stohlzenberg, would you? O_o

paddyfool
2010-05-14, 03:40 AM
On source material, you could do worse than to read some real historical stories of adventure from this period, such as this one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nathaniels-Nutmeg-Courage-Changed-History/dp/0340696761), btw. Or something more fantastical, perhaps, such as this one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lemprieres-Dictionary-Lawrence-Norfolk/dp/0749398191/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273826341&sr=1-1).

RdMarquis
2010-05-14, 04:06 AM
... you wouldn't happen to be in History 10B with Stohlzenberg, would you? O_o

Yeah. Wow, small world.

Serpentine
2010-05-14, 06:26 AM
Ha! Awesome. Ah, the Internet: Bringing people together, even if they're not far apart in the first place :smallbiggrin:

Coplantor
2010-05-14, 07:38 AM
I'd like to, but I have no idea how to create monsters like that. If anyone else wants to have a go at it, be my guest :smallbiggrin:.

Well sir, you better clean your cubicle before tomorrow morning!
:smalltongue:
Well, maybe I'll start stating it...
This is going to be an intresting weekend.

Roupe
2010-05-14, 11:25 AM
Looking at the genre, "ordinary" Animals are popular monster & mysterious villans. I would use Monster animals that are cunning & intelligent, To increase their threat these prominent monsterous animals also get class levels.

To name a few,
Murder of Rue Morge, Ape assassin
The Ghost and the Darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_and_the_Darkness),Two cunning, man eating Lions

hamishspence
2010-05-14, 11:29 AM
Mocha ****, maybe, or the Beast of Gevaudan? These might qualify as "notorious animals".

WorstDMEver
2010-05-14, 12:52 PM
Scanned pretty fast through this one - did anyone mention werewolves?

Bring goblins in a a neutral race that most nasties use as cheap labor, make orcs skilled mercenaries (irregulars, I guess...) good in a fight, but expendable 'cause they're not yours. Humans are the most vile and evil species around, so of course we'll enslave or destroy anything that won't help us voluntarily - just run with that.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-14, 01:03 PM
Ha! Awesome. Ah, the Internet: Bringing people together, even if they're not far apart in the first place :smallbiggrin:

I simply must add this most quotable piece of verbiage to my signature!
With Monsignors permission, of course.

Vitruviansquid
2010-05-14, 01:24 PM
Scanned pretty fast through this one - did anyone mention werewolves?

Bring goblins in a a neutral race that most nasties use as cheap labor, make orcs skilled mercenaries (irregulars, I guess...) good in a fight, but expendable 'cause they're not yours. Humans are the most vile and evil species around, so of course we'll enslave or destroy anything that won't help us voluntarily - just run with that.

I was thinking about making some kind of commentary on the imperialist project and its racist implications, but decided in the end that it's just not in keeping with the DnD spirit. The strict, cosmological division between good and evil in DnD feels a lot like the worldview held by medieval Christendom that they are the arch-enemies of Islam. However, while I could include "savage" ersatz-American monsters in (working title) Wigs and Wizards, it's not going to be as acceptable. DnD gets away with outright racism because we're a lot more comfortable pointing to medieval Europe and saying "they were stupid and didn't know any better."

edit: On Shades:

Shades are a particular kind of undead that guard the ruins of ancient civilizations. They manifest as incorporeal, enlarged representations of men, muscular, handsome, and tall. Although they use archaic weapons, bronze short swords, round shields, spears, bows, and slings, their supernatural skills and physical prowess make them dangerous. However, their true strength lies in keen mastery of rhetorical magic and both natural and supernatural philosophy.

It is from plundering the ruins of these shades and the study of texts and artifacts that they've left behind that modern people have learned the arts of technology and philosophy. Their ancient texts and learning still form the basis of a classical education.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-14, 01:48 PM
Yeah, D&D has been pretty solidly black and white on the race issue for a long time - the savage humanoids are evil, the noble humanoids are good, etc. This has been changing, and even from the beginning the half-orcs were included in the 'noble' race group. Now, with ToB: The Book of Nine Swords, hobgoblins are mentioned as being more than just savages. More DM's are allowing greater racial diversity amongst players - especially where the player can show he/she has a good character concept.

I had some fun with an evil group of players - they were ogres and ogre-magi who were out to dominate a small section of the Dragon Coast. They were evil with business-like tendencies. Started setting up smuggling (a mainstay of the area) and wanted to branch into piracy. It was fun and entertaining, especially since the worst of the bad guys usually plays a paladin.

Tetsubo 57
2010-05-14, 06:52 PM
I have to concur with another poster, you want Northern Crown. It is one of the best supplements I've ever read. A solid 16th - 17th century magical North American setting. Rock solid and it has some great art.

Video review here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u02PCtOCbFo

Lord Loss
2010-05-14, 07:05 PM
I second using The Beast of Geveaudan.

Also, Cthulhu would be a good way to go.

Here's a campaign model

Lvls 1-10

The PCs deal with minor monstrosities. A werewolf Taken down here,Frankenstein's monster killed there, etc.

Lvls 10-15

The PCs investigate a Cult/ Witch Coven worshipping what would appear to be Satan.

Lvls 15-20

The witches/cult actually worship Yog-Sothot, Azathoth or another member of the Cthulhu and aim to awaken him/ summon him to this owrld.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 01:27 AM
I don't think Cthulhu really lends itself to anything but Cthulhu.

I would go with the following "basic" list:


Werewolves (believed in at the time IRL)
Vampires (Eastern European style)
Flesh Golems (mad scientist style)
Iron Golems (see above)
Demons (mad scientists again; a lot of "magic" was considered science still)
A lot of undead; especially after plagues, and with the large scale battlefields with tons of casualties, I would expect a much larger quota of Ghouls than in "normal" D&D.
Fairies (believed in at the time IRL, but the more industrialism, the further from settlements they would be)
Trolls (believed in at the time IRL)


(Edit: Idea: Plague Elemental...)

Satyr
2010-05-17, 02:36 AM
The 'main event' of the 17th century, the 30 years war, was also the high time of witch hunting - the people had it bad, so they looked for scapegoats. And what is a better scapegoat than a witch?

Likewise, the typical wizard of Faust or Dee fame would also fit into the scenario. Generally, classical Alchemy would work well, with all that implied homunculi, golems and the like.

So witches and all that are a good base, if you'd like a good vs. evil campaign - even though the question who the good guys actually are is a bit shrouded in a 30 years war campaign (it's probably not Wallenstein).

At the same time, many of the classic fairy tales (the Grimm ones) were either coined or adjusted heavily in this time (for example, many fairy tales started to feature soldiers, and especially deserters as protagonists), so these plots would also work quite well.

And just to round it up: put the immortals, like Cagliostro and St. Germain to it. Because wise-cracking immortals are fun.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 03:16 AM
As Satyr pointed out, if you are following "IRL" to a degree, witch hunts were common in periods.

However there should be a huge distinction: Mages / Wizards that work out in small rural communities, or among the poor (healers etc) would likely be victims. Wizards who more work as "Scientists", would not (at least not until they created a rampaging Flesh Golem or two). Most likely they would also BE scientists who were using their magic in the pursuit of science. Basically famous 17th and 18th century "enlightened" and "scientific" persons (as an example) might very likely also be wizards, but since they have a different approach (and money and respect) they are not being pursued in witch hunts. Again, Flesh golems, and Iron (clockwork?) Golems would be a good idea.
I think it would also be great if you lowered the amount of people that actually could do magic (of any kind) drastically compared to a normal D&D setting. No battlefield magic, no magic duels in the streets etc.

And again, if something similar to the 30 year war took place in your campaign, there would probably be things like flocks of ghouls following the armies, waiting for a battle to end and then feast after the armies had moved on. (This was the first time since roman times where you truly had large armies. In medieval times a large battle could be 2000 men on each side. In the 30 year war you had 20 000 men on each side. The scale is so much larger. The carnage so much greater due to modern weapons, and the tempation for anyting thrieving on corpses, or bloodshed in general would be enormous; just like the ravens and crows certain kind of spirits, ghouls, etc etc would shadow the armies across the map).

Dr.Epic
2010-05-17, 03:22 AM
Get some Steam Punk all up in there. Also some writers to look at for inspiration:

H.G. Wells (Martians and tripods WTF)
Mary Shelley (mostly just for reanimated corpses)
Jules Verne (sci fi in general)

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-17, 07:22 AM
Thanks for all the good ideas, everyone. As interesting as are the monsters that haunted the imaginations of people in this time period, I'd also like to hear about how you guys would spin and update the monsters from "normal" medieval fantasy settings to fit the new time. For instance, I came up with a new identity for orcs:

Orcs are classically associated with violence and rapacity, unless we were to count the noble savage Warcraft 3-esque type. In an Age of Enlightenment setting, I picture orcs to be the ultimate expression of imperialist war-mongering, the fellows who would eagerly go to massacre the people of a foreign land if it can slightly lower the price of tea in their empire.

As well, orc warriors would change because of the paradigm shifts that come with gunpowder weapons. Instead of stressing individual bravery and physical strength, orcs enjoy nothing more than discipline, conformity, obedience to authority, and keeping one's head under fire. Their main folly is inflexibility and suffering from "stand-out-in-a-field-wearing-a-bright-coat-waiting-to-get-shot syndrome."

@RdMarquis: What a coincidence. I just attended a lecture today where the professor talked about him and his automata. Automata are definitely very fascinating as well as being very very very creepy.

Actually, what you are describing here sounds a lot closer to the Hobgoblin. (Who quite frankly always was rather close to an Orc for my money anyway).

I'd say as a contrary, there'd be a chance that Orc's could have been squeezed out almost altogether, only really continuing in backwoods areas, or as rogue Mr Jekyl types prowling the under-bellies of the new sprawling cities.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 07:29 AM
Actually, what you are describing here sounds a lot closer to the Hobgoblin. (Who quite frankly always was rather close to an Orc for my money anyway).

I'd say as a contrary, there'd be a chance that Orc's could have been squeezed out almost altogether, only really continuing in backwoods areas, or as rogue Mr Jekyl types prowling the under-bellies of the new sprawling cities.

I think I agree with this. So much so that if there is a "new world" in your world, the orcs may live there as Proud Warror Race.
The Hobgoblin would probably, if they existed, be hired elite mercs, working for human lords.

The elves would be living in remote areas with a lot of wilderness, not really in contact with humans.

Dragons... One or two tops, in the entire setting, and only by rumor (living in volcanoes) but a lot of stories about "old times" when they were far more common.

Basically I am of the opinion that just like with the magic users, the other races and many monsters need to be cut down to a minimum.
A lot of the other intelligent races, pure monsters as well as really powerful undead should simply not exist in the setting, or only exist as rumors and legends (so if the PCs stumble into a gnome village, it is a HUGE thing).

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 07:43 AM
To elaborate a little:

Let's pretend that your world is actually called Europa.

You might have a single dragon in the area, living in Vesuvius. And nobody has actually seen it for several hundred years.

The same with one (1) lich in the entire continent, living somewhere in transylvania, he or it might be the Dr. Doom of your setting if you will.

Humans dominate almost completely, with Elves living on remote islands and in the forests of Poland, Russia and Scandinavia.

The Hobgoblins and goblins have adapted, and make a good living (as secondary citizens), primarily as highly organized and well equipped mercenaries.

In the large cities Art, Science thrives. Constantly new discoveries about the world takes place, a lot of them aided by magic (in the name of Science! of course). But there are also the strange and scary experiments: Flesh and Bone golems. Men of Science that has mechanized Iron and Clockwork golems helping them and guarding them. Experiments gone bad leading to horrible things lurking in the dark or even out in the open (Jekyll / Mr Hyde paralell). Other things makes their living in the cities as well, vampires and ghouls for example.

At the same time traditional practitioners like wizards and druids living on the countryside are being hunted down as witches.

Also on the countryside long forgotten curses such as lychantropy exists; and in the mountains and deep forests a few giants and trolls still hide out.

Across the great sea, in the new world, man comes across a race of hideous but brave warriors, who rule the plains and forests but has no concept of modern Science! (The orcs that is).

In the wake of the immense battles not only ravens, crows and foxes come out and feast when the living has left; if not all corpses are burned immediately ghouls and other monstrous things that follows the moving armies just out of sight and hide during the day comes out to feast. Plundering peasants and victorious soldiers has to be very quick, or caught alone after dark in their company...

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-17, 07:54 AM
Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with Orc's taking 'Proud Warrior Race' position, because of the obvious parallels. Especially as they all too frequently end up taking that route, in tolkein, warcraft, you name it.

I'd much rather see them as being native to the same areas as everyone else, but having been out-competed and any centralised leadership / identity squashed.

They would be present in most civilised cities, just largely incapable of succeeding at any peaceful or honest niche. They'd be the ever-present scum and thugs on the street, downtrodden and largely unrepentant. Useful for manual labour, breaking things / people, and so on. Maybe one or two would find their way into the military and excell at the grunt-work.

Otherwise, they'd be the kind of creature you find in secluded rural communities. The kind that travellers never visit, or at least never return from. Bandits, man-eaters and generally lovecraftian-style source of creepy malicious types. For example they might be devil-worshipping mystics, or the local lord famed for his prodigious cruelty could, some say, have a bit of orc-blood in him, etc.

Putting Orcs in the place of a real-world race is just a bit close to the bone for me, having them be an under-class and an urban/rural problem is more to my tastes, personally.

[edit] Though, for the record, I quite like the rest of the above post, idea-wise. :) Generally good stuff.

ShinyRocks
2010-05-17, 07:54 AM
17th century?

Plague! Plaguey plaguey plague. Allowing you to use the awesome medieval Plague Doctors. Not strictly time-accurate, but plague is plague and these guys are too cool:

http://www.delpiano.com/carnival/assets/images/auto_generated_images/a_grev_medico1_w.jpg

Some sort of nefarious secret society hiding under the masks.

And a Plague Ooze. Mass graves and putrefaction leading to diseased liquified flesh glomping about infecting people and being generally gross.

And crazy doctors reanimating plague victims to look for a cure.

hamishspence
2010-05-17, 07:58 AM
There was a major Plague outbreak (immediately preceding the Great Fire of London) in the 17th century- so that's fine. I'm not sure if they had plague doctors of that type- but I have seen them in fictionalized versions of the era.

The Alchymist's Cat by Robin Jarvis was a pretty interesting portrayal. With an evil alchemist, who sometimes summoned undead spirits, or demons, and a reference to an imp walking the world in the form of a cat, and fathering feline children capable of using magic.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-17, 07:58 AM
17th century?

Plague! Plaguey plaguey plague. Allowing you to use the awesome medieval Plague Doctors. Not strictly time-accurate, but plague is plague and these guys are too cool:

http://www.delpiano.com/carnival/assets/images/auto_generated_images/a_grev_medico1_w.jpg

Some sort of nefarious secret society hiding under the masks.

And a Plague Ooze. Mass graves and putrefaction leading to diseased liquified flesh glomping about infecting people and being generally gross.

And crazy doctors reanimating plague victims to look for a cure.

Crazed Kenku Cultists, perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

ShinyRocks
2010-05-17, 08:12 AM
There was a major Plague outbreak (immediately preceding the Great Fire of London) in the 17th century- so that's fine. I'm not sure if they had plague doctors of that type- but I have seen them in fictionalized versions of the era.

The Alchymist's Cat by Robin Jarvis was a pretty interesting portrayal. With an evil alchemist, who sometimes summoned undead spirits, or demons, and a reference to an imp walking the world in the form of a cat, and fathering feline children capable of using magic.

That's what I figured - the plague itself is definitely appropriate. The bird-headed doctors, not so much, but can justifiably be squeezed in through the rule of awesome.

Robin Jarvis is AMAZING. <3

hamishspence
2010-05-17, 08:16 AM
I recall a description on TV Tropes of the Deptford Mice series being "the absinthe to Redwall's home-made lemonade"

The various books might be worth mining for "D&D post-renaissance" ideas- the cult of Suruth Scarophion, the Dark Despoiler, for example. Or the Nornir of Viking mythology having survived to the early modern era.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 08:21 AM
[edit] Though, for the record, I quite like the rest of the above post, idea-wise. :) Generally good stuff.

Thank you. It seemed the obvious way to go if any kind of "real" 17th or 18th century "feel" should be present.

Anyway, you are probably right; do it as in Arcanum then; Ogres and Orcs are suffering both from crashed populations and Fantastical Racism, and are the thugs or heavy workers. Miners, dock hands, enforcers, bouncers (both the rough and the actual legit versions), suffering from even lower life expectancies than working class humans (even when taking the orcs shorter lifespan in account).

Serpentine
2010-05-17, 09:10 AM
Actually, it looks like that plague doctor outfit at least did exist and was worn. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequences_of_the_Black_Death#Other_effects) I'm pretty sure I saw an adventure or something in a Dragon magazine that featured them...

hamishspence
2010-05-17, 09:45 AM
He might have meant that the bird-headed outfit was more medieval, with the 17th century version being a bit different.

Still- the fact that 17th century engravings showed the same outfit, may imply that it didn't change all that much.

Gametime
2010-05-17, 09:56 AM
Personally, I'm a little uncomfortable with Orc's taking 'Proud Warrior Race' position, because of the obvious parallels. Especially as they all too frequently end up taking that route, in tolkein, warcraft, you name it.



Tolkien's orcs don't fit the Proud Warrior Race mold at all. They're savage, bestial, cruel, treacherous, cowardly, and irredeemably evil. The Peter Jackson films added one or two lines that make them seem a bit more proud, but most of the orc behavior we see is still what Tolkien intended.

/tangent

cattoy
2010-05-17, 11:30 PM
I'm currently writing an RPG system that takes the spirit of DnD and puts it into a setting around age of muskets and powdered wigs. Basically, think of how it would look if Dungeons and Dragons was rolled forward by three or four hundred years. Now, I was wondering, what kind of monster manual would this game have?


Foreigners. Your period is in the middle of the age of Empire, and nearly all empire building comes at the expense of foreigners.

Low level enemies would be the locals, high level enemies would be rival empire builders.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-18, 02:28 AM
Foreigners. Your period is in the middle of the age of Empire, and nearly all empire building comes at the expense of foreigners.

Low level enemies would be the locals, high level enemies would be rival empire builders.

Actually if we are talking 17th and 18th century that is not true. All the biggest and bloodiest wars was in Europe between already established powers, and not because of colonies (colonies were attacked, but usually because there already was a war on and they therefore was legit targets).

paddyfool
2010-05-18, 05:30 AM
Putting Orcs in the place of a real-world race is just a bit close to the bone for me, having them be an under-class and an urban/rural problem is more to my tastes, personally.


This I'd very much agree with. If you want them, maybe have them come from some place that doesn't exist in the real world (some subterranean kingdom, perhaps - fits with the Darkvision, anyway; or, alternatively, you could introduce a time-travel plot and call them Morlocks).

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-18, 05:46 AM
This I'd very much agree with. If you want them, maybe have them come from some place that doesn't exist in the real world (some subterranean kingdom, perhaps - fits with the Darkvision, anyway; or, alternatively, you could introduce a time-travel plot and call them Morlocks).

Agreed; this is why in my (revised) vision above they would be miners and other things like that.

paddyfool
2010-05-18, 06:17 AM
Whoops - sorry about missing that.

Minor suggestion: given the tradition of dwarves being involved in mining, the dwarves in this setting could conduct the trade in most metals, gems, coal etc., but keep orcs as slaves to actually do most of the digging.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-18, 08:01 AM
Whoops - sorry about missing that.

Minor suggestion: given the tradition of dwarves being involved in mining, the dwarves in this setting could conduct the trade in most metals, gems, coal etc., but keep orcs as slaves to actually do most of the digging.

...I was thinking more along the lines that Ogres and Orcs are the low-paid muscle in dangerous jobs, plus as enforcers etc for gangsters (see other post higher up). In human-run mines and such, orcs would work at the worst positions. I would think that if Dwarves exists in the setting, they would be too proud (and too racist) to allow orcs into their mines.

bibliophile
2010-05-18, 10:00 AM
Cool people in the period include:

Abbe Faria's work on Hypnotism

André-Jacques Garnerin, who in 1797, parachuted from 3,000 feet (from the recently invented gas balloon)

Alexander von Humbolt an explorer who investigated meteorology, isotherms, earth's magnetic field, climbed a volcano, set a world altitude while mountain climbing, met Thomas Jefferson, explored the Amazon, captured electric eels...

Athanasius Kircher - look him up on wikipedia, there's too much to list.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-18, 10:10 AM
Besides, the Dwarves would be far too busy with their Cold-War against the Kobolds (Their cheif mining-rivals) to risk it.

Vitruviansquid
2010-05-18, 12:31 PM
Discussions of monsters are good. Keep 'em coming. :smallbiggrin:

But now I'm sort of interested in also talking about the pseudo-sciences of the times. As a basic outline for what the Polymath class (see first post) will be doing, I decided to make a brainstorm of keywords. Anyone want to add to the list? Or think of some way to make sense of these?

Anyways, the keywords:

Mephistopheles
Pact
Bargain
Elementals (Undine/sylph/salamander/gnome)
Astrology
Alchemy
Golems

JohnnyCancer
2010-05-18, 02:20 PM
Dire animals and dinosaurs from unexplored regions.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-18, 03:38 PM
Dire animals and dinosaurs from unexplored regions.

"Here Be Dragons". Literary.

Basically, the further away from the "European" continent, the less humans, the more monsters, and bigger ones too.

In fact, in moderation Pirates of Caribbean would work as an inspiration too (it is set in a historic mishmash of the 17th and 18th century).

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-18, 03:42 PM
Discussions of monsters are good. Keep 'em coming. :smallbiggrin:

But now I'm sort of interested in also talking about the pseudo-sciences of the times. As a basic outline for what the Polymath class (see first post) will be doing, I decided to make a brainstorm of keywords. Anyone want to add to the list? Or think of some way to make sense of these?

Anyways, the keywords:

Mephistopheles
Pact
Bargain
Elementals (Undine/sylph/salamander/gnome)
Astrology
Alchemy
Golems

Maybe too obvious ones:

Electricity
Magnetism
Igor
Hyde
Dorian Gray
Experiments
Explore
Expeditions
Symbols

Eldan
2010-05-18, 04:20 PM
Already towards the end of your period, but Mesmerism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesmerism) The Wikipedia article seems a tad unhelpful and disorganized, though. We had it in a university course on the distinction of science and pseudoscience.

cattoy
2010-05-19, 02:37 AM
Actually if we are talking 17th and 18th century that is not true. All the biggest and bloodiest wars was in Europe between already established powers, and not because of colonies (colonies were attacked, but usually because there already was a war on and they therefore was legit targets).

Read it again. I said:
Foreigners. Your period is in the middle of the age of Empire, and nearly all empire building comes at the expense of foreigners.

Low level enemies would be the locals, high level enemies would be rival empire builders.


I never claim that colonies caused wars between established powers. I point out that low level adversaries fire arrows at you and high level adversaries fire cannons at you. The point I make and you fail to grasp is that the adversary list for a game set in a fantasy analogue of the 17-18th centuries is basically a list of foreign peoples.

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-19, 02:58 AM
Read it again. I said:
Foreigners. Your period is in the middle of the age of Empire, and nearly all empire building comes at the expense of foreigners.

Low level enemies would be the locals, high level enemies would be rival empire builders.


I never claim that colonies caused wars between established powers. I point out that low level adversaries fire arrows at you and high level adversaries fire cannons at you. The point I make and you fail to grasp is that the adversary list for a game set in a fantasy analogue of the 17-18th centuries is basically a list of foreign peoples.

And read again what I said. I said I don't agree with this, but maybe it's a definition of words. More specifically: "Foreigners".

The reason for my confusion is that I thought you used the word to describe "locals" only. Because I would use the word "states" or "nations" to describe what you call "foreigners" otherwise. Basically Kingdom X invades Kingdom Y. Or Republic Z, or Empire V. But unless the PCs are spies, agents or soldiers in an army, this is not their main enemies. Even in this setting, most PCs will be fighting monsters (hiding in the woods, or in the graveyards, or created by mad wizard scientists) (although come to think of it, most enemies my own D&D characters has ever killed has been "foreigners" even in the Forgotten Realms - Evil clerics, Assassin Guild members, Robbers, Mad Wizards... the ratio of "humans I have not met before" to "monster" has been 2:1 or so)