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View Full Version : [3.5] Crossbow + Rapier, how do I not suck?



PId6
2010-05-13, 01:12 AM
I'm building a new character and, just for something different, I want to build one focusing on fighting with a melee weapon and a crossbow at the same time. Currently, I'm thinking of a sneak attack-heavy Daring Outlaw build with a focus on Int, maybe dipping cloistered cleric for Knowledge Devotion, factotum for Brains Over Brawn, and taking Invisible Blade for the partial Int to AC along with sneak attack advancement. The build is remarkably feat-intensive though (Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting chain, Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot, almost all are must haves).

28 PB, starts at level 14. I will have easy access to Major Creation'ed poisons, so I'm probably going to take at least passing interest in those. It's going to be difficult dealing damage with a build like this hence why I wanted sneak attack, but it's hard to sneak attack at range. Not much is certain at the moment, so feel free to suggest classes, feats, entire builds, whatever. I want this to at least be decently powerful, however hard that may seem. Dealing good damage will be my main problem, and making this weapon style do something unique is my second one. Cheese acceptable. Any ideas?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-13, 01:21 AM
I suggest skipping the Two-Weapon Fighting thing. As 3.5 D&D has dropped the whole Ambidexterity idea, you can use any weapon in hand as a "main" hand weapon. Each attack of a full attack can use whatever weapon you want. Giving up TWF just means you won't get multiple attacks at each AB, and you won't incur the penalties.

If you're in melee you're not going to want to use the crossbow anyway. So start out with the crossbow, then switch to the rapier if enemies close. When you kill one with your rapier you can switch back to the crossbow. There's really no reason to actually fight with both at the same time.

arguskos
2010-05-13, 01:29 AM
..how have we gotten to post #3 without mention of Versatile Combatant yet? It's TWF+ for Rapier/Hand Crossbow (you get TWF for those weapons only; rapier main-hand, hand xbow off-hand; and you don't provoke for firing the xbow with foes adjacent)

Page 53, Drow of the Underdark.

Seriously though, it's the feat for this trick. The rest of the TWF line is nigh-pointless for Rapier/Xbow though, so just ignore it.

balistafreak
2010-05-13, 01:33 AM
There are feats in Drow of the Underdark involving hand crossbows. Versatile Combatant acts as Two-Weapon Fighting for specifically a Rapier and Hand Crossbow (perfect!) with the added bonus that firing the crossbow no longer provokes, so you can shoot it at pointblank range into melee as basically a really junky offhand weapon that doesn't add any Strength to damage whatsoever. (Yeah, handcrossbows aren't that great.) You can however shoot things that you aren't in melee with, which I suppose would be a plus if you could actually expect to kill something with a 1d4 bolt. (Poisons. You need them, badly.)

Combine with Hand Crossbow Focus to both reload said hand crossbows as a free action and get the equivalent of Weapon Focus (+1 to attack rolls) for hand crossbows and you have a cool, if not really efficient, character. Bow and sword, in accord.

Personally, for combining melee and ranged, I'm partial to a third feat from this book, the Tormtor School. Requiring a BAB of +6, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus (javelin), in addition to an implied Quick Draw due to the nature of javelins as throwing weapons, it's somewhat irritating to get but allows additional actions, which is priceless. It removes the -4 penalty for attacking in melee with a javelin, adds +1 to javelin damage, and (best of all) lets you throw a single javelin as a swift action if you hit with one in melee. This javelin can't hit the same target you hit in melee, but regardless making an extra attack can only be good. The main problem is that it takes up your swift action - for a Warblade, this can be an extremely irritating fact when it comes down to either refreshing your manuevers or just attacking more.

Adumbration
2010-05-13, 01:35 AM
I'd suggest cramming in at least 2-3 levels of Binder and the feat Improved Binding to get your hands on Paimon. A few levels of Swordsage won't hurt either, especially if you take Shadow blade feat and Assassin's stance.

Air goblin (UA) is an excellent choice of race for this - +4 to dex with LA +0 is simply fabulous.

And please, please don't forget Weapon finesse! You can essentially just dump strength with weapon finesse and shadow blade.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-13, 02:47 AM
If you've got the cash, get yourself a Training Dummy of the Master (Arms & Equipment Manual). It turns your 5' step into a 10' step... which allows you to Full Attack and get full benefit from the Scout class.

Escheton
2010-05-13, 02:49 AM
Depending on the featchoice of your partymembers, your umd total and your willingness to buy eternal wands you can get lotsa feats for short bursts of time.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030504x

look for the lvl 2 spell mirror move

PId6
2010-05-13, 11:36 AM
I suggest skipping the Two-Weapon Fighting thing. As 3.5 D&D has dropped the whole Ambidexterity idea, you can use any weapon in hand as a "main" hand weapon. Each attack of a full attack can use whatever weapon you want. Giving up TWF just means you won't get multiple attacks at each AB, and you won't incur the penalties.
This sounds like a good idea I guess. I lose a bunch of extra attacks, but you're right; it's probably not worth the extra feats and effort.


..how have we gotten to post #3 without mention of Versatile Combatant yet? It's TWF+ for Rapier/Hand Crossbow (you get TWF for those weapons only; rapier main-hand, hand xbow off-hand; and you don't provoke for firing the xbow with foes adjacent)

Page 53, Drow of the Underdark.

Seriously though, it's the feat for this trick. The rest of the TWF line is nigh-pointless for Rapier/Xbow though, so just ignore it.
I'm not sure whether that's actually useful though. If I'm not taking the other TWF feats, I probably won't want to use crossbow at melee range anyway, so provoking not an issue. There's also the problem that Invisible Blade, which I'm currently thinking of taking, requires dagger or kukri, so rapier might not work. It's one extra attack with crossbow at melee range, which penalizes all my other attacks that round, and I can't get more because it doesn't work as prereq for the other TWF feats. I'm not sure that's worth a feat.


Combine with Hand Crossbow Focus to both reload said hand crossbows as a free action and get the equivalent of Weapon Focus (+1 to attack rolls) for hand crossbows and you have a cool, if not really efficient, character. Bow and sword, in accord.

Personally, for combining melee and ranged, I'm partial to a third feat from this book, the Tormtor School. Requiring a BAB of +6, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus (javelin), in addition to an implied Quick Draw due to the nature of javelins as throwing weapons, it's somewhat irritating to get but allows additional actions, which is priceless. It removes the -4 penalty for attacking in melee with a javelin, adds +1 to javelin damage, and (best of all) lets you throw a single javelin as a swift action if you hit with one in melee. This javelin can't hit the same target you hit in melee, but regardless making an extra attack can only be good. The main problem is that it takes up your swift action - for a Warblade, this can be an extremely irritating fact when it comes down to either refreshing your manuevers or just attacking more.
Hand crossbow focus is nice to have, but free action reloading can be gotten for +1 weapon enhancement, so I'm just paying for +2 attack +1 damage pretty much. It's nice to have, but I'm not sure I have the spare feat for it. Feats are pretty much the biggest issue with this build.

Tormtor School is really cool, but I definitely don't have two spare feats for it. Weapon Focus (Javelin) is just such a waste. And between dipping martial adepts, devotion feats, and various poison tricks, my swift actions are probably spoken for as well.


I'd suggest cramming in at least 2-3 levels of Binder and the feat Improved Binding to get your hands on Paimon. A few levels of Swordsage won't hurt either, especially if you take Shadow blade feat and Assassin's stance.

Air goblin (UA) is an excellent choice of race for this - +4 to dex with LA +0 is simply fabulous.

And please, please don't forget Weapon finesse! You can essentially just dump strength with weapon finesse and shadow blade.
Definitely getting swordsage and Weapon Finesse. Don't know about Shadow Blade since that only applies to my melee attacks, but if I have feats, maybe. Paimon is seriously cool. If I wasn't taking swashbuckler and getting Weapon Finesse already, I would take it, but I'm not sure it's worthwhile without the free feat. +4 dex is just great though, so I'm not sure. Depends on if I still want to focus on sneak attack for damage.

For race, I'm looking at air goblin, Strongheart halfling, and Dragonwrought kobold. Not sure which yet.


If you've got the cash, get yourself a Training Dummy of the Master (Arms & Equipment Manual). It turns your 5' step into a 10' step... which allows you to Full Attack and get full benefit from the Scout class.
Never knew about that item. It's expensive and requires a level in monk, but it does make skirmish builds possible. Skirmish does a lot less damage than sneak attack though, so I don't know about that.


Depending on the featchoice of your partymembers, your umd total and your willingness to buy eternal wands you can get lotsa feats for short bursts of time.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030504x

look for the lvl 2 spell mirror move
The duration is unfortunately a bit low for any long-lasting use short of Persisting. And plus, I've learned through experience: never have your character be completely dependent on a fellow PC if you can help it. :smalltongue:


Does anyone know of any other ways to get damage with this build besides sneak attack? Skirmish is possible, but I don't know of any ways to advance that faster than just scout, and that doesn't really do much damage. Alternatively, any ways to ensure sneak attack at range? (Besides Ring of Blinking; don't really like that item.)