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Balor01
2010-05-13, 05:17 AM
Say I am Pun Pun and am increasing my stats, yet I am aware, that out there may be someone else, who is increasing his stast longer, so I want to make a spell that will give me stat increase BEFORE I add them. Meaning, I get infinite stats, because whenever I increase my stats, I already increased them infinite-times before.

Could such a spell, that would ensure infinite-stat status, be made?

Epic spellcasting included of course.

AslanCross
2010-05-13, 05:27 AM
You could make it, but your DM will probably be arrested for homicide. :smallannoyed:

Eldariel
2010-05-13, 05:33 AM
You're Pun-Pun. You can make any ability you want for yourself, including "I Am Pun-Pun (Typeless 'cause that's how I roll): All Pun-Pun's stats are infinite."

Zeta Kai
2010-05-13, 05:34 AM
By that point, you've already killed the game. Must you then, by extension, rape its corpse? :smallconfused:

If you can solve the koan above, then you will have your answer, if not the one you seek. :smallwink:

kamikasei
2010-05-13, 05:38 AM
Say I am Pun Pun and am increasing my stats, yet I am aware, that out there may be someone else, who is increasing his stast longer, so I want to make a spell that will give me stat increase BEFORE I add them.

All else aside: if you could do this, couldn't this other guy as well?

Balor01
2010-05-13, 05:39 AM
Well ... this could put Pun Pun on-pair with Lady of Pain :smallbiggrin:

Beyond gods, epic spellcasters and all other uninteresting challenges :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 05:55 AM
Well ... this could put Pun Pun on-pair with Lady of Pain :smallbiggrin:

No such thing. The Lady of Pain is the Lady of Pain. The best you can do is not to anger her and not to touch her shadow on pain of being killed or mazed. Or worse.

Eldariel
2010-05-13, 06:00 AM
No such thing. The Lady of Pain is the Lady of Pain. The best you can do is not to anger her and not to touch her shadow on pain of being killed or mazed. Or worse.

Pun-Pun is without equal. Anything else is but a small shadow compared to him; LoP may have infinite power, but Pun-Pun simply transcends infinity 'cause that's just Pun-Pun for you. All hail our Kobold overlord!

Edwin
2010-05-13, 06:04 AM
Technically, the only reason Pun Pun can't kill the Lady of Pain would be because there's not stats for her.

Even if she had an "I win" button, Pun Pun could cheese his way into getting that. :smallbiggrin:

olentu
2010-05-13, 06:33 AM
Technically, the only reason Pun Pun can't kill the Lady of Pain would be because there's not stats for her.

Even if she had an "I win" button, Pun Pun could cheese his way into getting that. :smallbiggrin:

I don't see why one could not just make up an ability that gives her stats if one has already decided to make up abilities.

Mongoose87
2010-05-13, 07:50 AM
I don't see why one could not just make up an ability that gives her stats if one has already decided to make up abilities.

Or he could make an ability called "Kill the Lady of Pain."

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-13, 08:09 AM
Pun-Pun is without equal. Anything else is but a small shadow compared to him; LoP may have infinite power, but Pun-Pun simply transcends infinity 'cause that's just Pun-Pun for you. All hail our Kobold overlord!

Pun-Pun can never reach infinity in anything because increasing his abilities takes time.

He can get all of his attributes arbitrarily high but that's not infinite. You cannot get to infinity from here, sorry.

Deca
2010-05-13, 08:10 AM
No such thing. The Lady of Pain is the Lady of Pain. The best you can do is not to anger her and not to touch her shadow on pain of being killed or mazed. Or worse.

Pun-Pun may anger whoever he pleases. There are no equals to him and he recognises no superiors. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

Eldariel
2010-05-13, 08:19 AM
Pun-Pun can never reach infinity in anything because increasing his abilities takes time.

He can get all of his attributes arbitrarily high but that's not infinite. You cannot get to infinity from here, sorry.

You forgot the convenient little fact that Pun-Pun, once ascended, can come up with his own abilities (side-effect of the Sarrukh's ability). Yes, you cannot pump his attributes ad nauseam with the familiar/growth loop, but you CAN have him give himself ability "my stats are infinite, and also, I can break the rules of this game should I so desire". That is within his powers.

Doc Roc
2010-05-13, 08:56 AM
Actually, normally Pun-Pun uses the Ice Assassin trick to _become_ the lady of pain. There is some debate regarding the safety of this endeavor and whether or not the nature of the lady of pain is integral in her very form and abilities. I've personally always held that this isn't the wisest of approaches, as we know very little about the nature of the Lady of Pain.

I've always advocated just avoiding Sigil, because until you Ice-assassin her, the Lady of Pain can bar you from sigil, and can kill you. It's popular to insist that she cannot, for any variety of reasons, but the only evidence we have regarding her abilities is a big flashing YES carved in the center of the multiverse.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 10:18 AM
Pun-Pun may anger whoever he pleases. There are no equals to him and he recognises no superiors. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

Just because he is ignorant of his greaters does not mean they don't exist.

druid91
2010-05-13, 10:26 AM
Just because he is ignorant of his greaters does not mean they don't exist.

Yes it does, because anyone willing to play pun-pun will probably have already done the Omniscifier loop to learn everything in the multiverse and outside it. Then he goes on to become pun-pun actually solidifying his status as the most powerful entity in everywhere/when.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 10:31 AM
Yes it does, because anyone willing to play pun-pun will probably have already done the Omniscifier loop to learn everything in the multiverse and outside it. Then he goes on to become pun-pun actually solidifying his status as the most powerful entity in everywhere/when.

There is always something greater, and something unknowable. That something is the Lady of Pain. You cannot fathom her origins. You cannot glean her purpose or motivation. You cannot overpower her, nor can you avoid her wrath.

Pun-Pun is just a Prime berk, after all. The best he can hope to do is stay off her radar.

druid91
2010-05-13, 10:36 AM
This is Pun-Pun, while I can accept that most things can be beaten, Pun-Pun is Pun-Pun, he wins Pun Pun and the lady of pain are like the opposite ends of a spectrum, one is the most powerful being in existence do to lacking stats, the other is the most powerful creature in existence because of Infinite stats, thus pun pun wins since technically if it doesn't have stats pun puns alter reality ability can let him assign it stats.

WildPyre
2010-05-13, 11:15 AM
I can name at least one power greater than Pun Pun.


The allmighty DM.

Pun Pun says "I get infinity stats!"

DM says "That's nice, you're now an NPC roll a new character."

Pun Pun's plan is hosed.

Emmerask
2010-05-13, 11:22 AM
pun puns alter reality ability can let him assign it stats.

alter reality is no where near as powerful, yes it can alter reality but on a very very limited scope, here is the list what it can do:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alter_Reality_(Divine_Ability)

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 11:23 AM
This is Pun-Pun, while I can accept that most things can be beaten, Pun-Pun is Pun-Pun, he wins Pun Pun and the lady of pain are like the opposite ends of a spectrum, one is the most powerful being in existence do to lacking stats, the other is the most powerful creature in existence because of Infinite stats, thus pun pun wins since technically if it doesn't have stats pun puns alter reality ability can let him assign it stats.

Here's the thing: Sigil is as old as Planescape. Possibly older. Pazuzu wasn't born yesterday, and people who are capable of making a relatively easy Knowledge check to figure out how to call upon a wish from him are dime a billion. Everyone who is ambitious enough in Planescape would like to take control of Sigil. If that plan would work, somebody would have done it already and the Lady of Pain would not exist today.

She still exists today. Ergo, that plan does not work.

The Lady of Pain is not defined by the game's rules, she is only defined by the setting's. No matter how powerful you are and how capable you are of making her into a foe you can fight, she will remain as she is.

2xMachina
2010-05-13, 11:34 AM
alter reality is no where near as powerful, yes it can alter reality but on a very very limited scope, here is the list what it can do:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alter_Reality_(Divine_Ability)

Well, to be more accurate, it can alter D&D rules. It can give itself ANY ability with the Sharukkh(sp?) ability

druid91
2010-05-13, 11:36 AM
alter reality is no where near as powerful, yes it can alter reality but on a very very limited scope, here is the list what it can do:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alter_Reality_(Divine_Ability)

Who said that's what I was talking about? I was referring to the upgraded version that Pun-Pun made for himself.


Here's the thing: Sigil is as old as Planescape. Possibly older. Pazuzu wasn't born yesterday, and people who are capable of making a relatively easy Knowledge check to figure out how to call upon a wish from him are dime a billion. Everyone who is ambitious enough in Planescape would like to take control of Sigil. If that plan would work, somebody would have done it already and the Lady of Pain would not exist today.

She still exists today. Ergo, that plan does not work.

The Lady of Pain is not defined by the game's rules, she is only defined by the setting's. No matter how powerful you are and how capable you are of making her into a foe you can fight, she will remain as she is.
So... Dm fiat? Really?

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 11:37 AM
Actually, normally Pun-Pun uses the Ice Assassin trick to _become_ the lady of pain. There is some debate regarding the safety of this endeavor and whether or not the nature of the lady of pain is integral in her very form and abilities. I've personally always held that this isn't the wisest of approaches, as we know very little about the nature of the Lady of Pain.

I've always advocated just avoiding Sigil, because until you Ice-assassin her, the Lady of Pain can bar you from sigil, and can kill you. It's popular to insist that she cannot, for any variety of reasons, but the only evidence we have regarding her abilities is a big flashing YES carved in the center of the multiverse.

I think in this case, you're more likely to end up with two problems, instead of fixing one.


So... Dm fiat? Really?

Actually, pretty much. As far as I can tell, the lady of pain was made by a dev team that knew the setting would get trashed by munchkin jerks if there wasn't a DM fiat tool to quash them for being impertinant. Using loopholes and stupid power grab schemes are pretty much the only things that get her to act.

druid91
2010-05-13, 11:48 AM
So what happens if people explode the tower that sigil rests upon?

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 11:52 AM
So... Dm fiat? Really?

Well, no, not DM Fiat. DM Fiat would be in Pun-Pun could kill the Lady. It's more SD (Setting Developer) Fiat.

But rejoice! Planescape is far greater than Sigil, and the Lady of Pain seemingly does not care whatever happens outside of it, so Pun-Pun can still do whatever he wants outside of Sigil. He cannot, however, confront the Lady on a meaningful level, as the Lady never leaves Sigil.


So what happens if people explode the tower that sigil rests upon?

Sigil does not rest upon the spire. It rests above and around it. The spire, however, is the center of the Outlands, and thus, the multiverse, so destroying it may cause everything outside Sigil to vanish forever. May. I'm not that well-versed in Planescape lore.

BobVosh
2010-05-13, 11:54 AM
You are forgetting her power to automatically maze any kobold the second the word "pazuzu" passes their lips.

I personally like how this thread has decayed to the point of most spiderman vs batman type of conversations.

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 11:55 AM
So what happens if people explode the tower that sigil rests upon?

Looking at the messed up diagram of the place, probably not much. It doesn't look like it's actually supported by it. Then again, it's supposed to be infinitely tall, so who knows.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-13, 11:57 AM
Just a FYI, there's not really much point in arguing with the cant-ies about the Lady of Pain. Their opinions are pretty solidly set in stone, and they are quite vocal about it.

It's funny, given the complete lack of actual information about the Lady of Pain. Means that the DM ruling that she is, infact, three squirrels with a rod of flaying is 100% as legitimate as the DM-Fiat-Powered interpretation.

And I'm pretty sure Pun-Pun can take out three levitating squirrels simply enough. :smallbiggrin:

druid91
2010-05-13, 11:57 AM
I personally like how this thread has decayed to the point of most spiderman vs batman type of conversations.

So do I its incredibly fun. Especially since we don't have to worry about actually convincing the other side we are right.

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 11:59 AM
Just a FYI, there's not really much point in arguing with the cant-ies about the Lady of Pain. Their opinions are pretty solidly set in stone, and they are quite vocal about it.

It's funny, given the complete lack of actual information about the Lady of Pain. Means that the DM ruling that she is, infact, three squirrels with a rod of flaying is 100% as legitimate as the DM-Fiat-Powered interpretation.

And I'm pretty sure Pun-Pun can take out three levitating squirrels simply enough. :smallbiggrin:

Minimum requirement is can take a greater diety in his home plane. So they'd have to be 3 greater deific squirrels.

Rather probable that you also need an excuse for why the greater dieties omniscience doesn't kick in on her, which would have allowed for greater knowledge of her abilities. Normally, you must be a rank+1 diety for this to occur, which puts her into the overdiety and "no stats" category anyway. No problem with it being a trio of overdiety squirrels though.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 11:59 AM
Just a FYI, there's not really much point in arguing with the cant-ies about the Lady of Pain. Their opinions are pretty solidly set in stone, and they are quite vocal about it.

Hey! I'm not a cager! I'm a prime, and proud of it! Things are much safer out here, since the chances are very small your closet door might accidentally open into the Abyss one day.

druid91
2010-05-13, 12:01 PM
Question is a Cant-y someone who whenever someone says that the lady can be beaten promptly begin speaking what is apparently Sigil-ese, and implying that the speaker is a soon to be dead fool?

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-13, 12:05 PM
Well, it's Planar Cant, not Sigil-ese. But it's slightly more complicated than that. Certainly knowing that the Lady of Pain is not someone you can meaningfully challenge is a part of it, but it also involves knowing the chant of the week, the abridged history of the planes, who else not to mess with, that Asmodeus is a BAMF and several other things.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-13, 12:08 PM
Question is a Cant-y someone who whenever someone says that the lady can be beaten promptly begin speaking what is apparently Sigil-ese, and implying that the speaker is a soon to be dead fool?

Unless it's an already existing phrase, that was my implication, yes.

Yukitsu - Nope. Not a requirement at all. Just because everyone knows that the Lady took on Aosker (sp?) and destroyed him 'with a thought', doesn't mean that's actually what happened.

It could be any number of other things, including but not limited to;
Coincidental Divine Heart Attack.
Rag-Tag-Band of Murderous Hobo's doing it secretly in the Lady's name, for the sake of Sigil's stability.
The Cage itself, Sigil, taking direct action (either as part of a psuedo-sentience or some kind of existing trap against gods.)
Interjection by an interested third party, such as Asmodeus, who has reason to desire the status quo remains unchanged.

Squirrels, seeing and noticing this happen, breathe sigh of relief. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-13, 12:09 PM
You are forgetting her power to automatically maze any kobold the second the word "pazuzu" passes their lips.

I personally like how this thread has decayed to the point of most spiderman vs batman type of conversations.

Especially since we already have a "I hat3z teh LoP/I lov3z teh LoP" thread...this thread doesn't seem to have any purpose beyond "Pun Pun can beat LoP".

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 12:11 PM
Unless it's an already existing phrase, that was my implication, yes.

Yukitsu - Nope. Not a requirement at all. Just because everyone knows that the Lady took on Aosker (sp?) and destroyed him 'with a thought', doesn't mean that's actually what happened.

It could be any number of other things, including but not limited to;
Coincidental Divine Heart Attack.
Rag-Tag-Band of Murderous Hobo's doing it secretly in the Lady's name, for the sake of Sigil's stability.
The Cage itself, Sigil, taking direct action (either as part of a psuedo-sentience or some kind of existing trap against gods.)
Interjection by an interested third party, such as Asmodeus, who has reason to desire the status quo remains unchanged.

Squirrels, seeing and noticing this happen, breathe sigh of relief. :smallwink:

Besides the first one, all of those would imply that Pun Pun would also be destroyed if he attempted anything, since the traps/hobos/Asmodeus (especially Asmodeus) would have the exact same statless "I win" as The Lady.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-13, 12:11 PM
Well, it's Planar Cant, not Sigil-ese. But it's slightly more complicated than that. Certainly knowing that the Lady of Pain is not someone you can meaningfully challenge is a part of it, but it also involves knowing the chant of the week, the abridged history of the planes, who else not to mess with, that Asmodeus is a BAMF and several other things.

Uhh...
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060320180204/marveldatabase/images/thumb/0/06/Bamf_%28Earth-5311%29.jpg/200px-Bamf_%28Earth-5311%29.jpg

Asmodeus is a Bamf?! Who knew!

[edit] Just because something happened, does not mean it will always happen.
One day, the sun will not rise.

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 12:11 PM
Yukitsu - Nope. Not a requirement at all. Just because everyone knows that the Lady took on Aosker (sp?) and destroyed him 'with a thought', doesn't mean that's actually what happened.

It could be any number of other things, including but not limited to;
Coincidental Divine Heart Attack.
Rag-Tag-Band of Murderous Hobo's doing it secretly in the Lady's name, for the sake of Sigil's stability.
The Cage itself, Sigil, taking direct action (either as part of a psuedo-sentience or some kind of existing trap against gods.)
Interjection by an interested third party, such as Asmodeus, who has reason to desire the status quo remains unchanged.

Squirrels, seeing and noticing this happen, breathe sigh of relief. :smallwink:

But once you need to assume the absurd, it's not a very credible theory. :smalltongue:

Although the second to last theory is the same as the lady doing it in some theories. They seem to be rather linked.

chiasaur11
2010-05-13, 02:57 PM
Whenever I consider any meeting between the rules construct to end rule constructs and the embodiment of narrative fiat (meaning no offense to either party concerned, of course) I figure it would be, well...

They'd never meet what with no gods in Sigil, but if they somehow did?

Kobold would be on his best behavior.

Not just because he'd be lesser, of course. After all, the lowest level double P:

1) Is an (ex) Paladin, and therefore, you know, generally an upstanding type. Not exactly the "I'll kick your ass because I can" brand of adventurer.

2) An old Kobold. Like an old redshirt, that means both wiliness, and a knack for not getting in the way of anyone who could stomp you like a bug. Don't exactly live a long time if you mouth off to your superiors.

3) Near infinite int and wis. He knows whatever game is being run in Sigil, why it works, and, importantly, what would happen if the pieces went flying.

Essentially, you got a guy with all the reason in the world to sit down, shut up, and play nice, and a Lady with a nasty temper when roused. Somehow, I can't see this ending any way other than

"And in general, this is a lovely city. I hate to overstay my welcome, I'll be off now."

2xMachina
2010-05-13, 03:21 PM
What if...

The Lady IS Pun Pun?

She just got bored of the world, and don't interfere, except for stupid people messing around near her.

Thajocoth
2010-05-13, 03:27 PM
Pun-Pun, realizing the statless power of LoP, would ask for the Lady's stats, ceasing to be Pun-Pun and being bound to a city. It's like when Jafar saw the Genie's power and wished to be a Genie.

Doc Roc
2010-05-13, 03:56 PM
This is Pun-Pun, while I can accept that most things can be beaten, Pun-Pun is Pun-Pun, he wins Pun Pun and the lady of pain are like the opposite ends of a spectrum, one is the most powerful being in existence do to lacking stats, the other is the most powerful creature in existence because of Infinite stats, thus pun pun wins since technically if it doesn't have stats pun puns alter reality ability can let him assign it stats.

Actually, there's a cogent argument that either the Terminators or the Neo-terminators are more powerful\final\thorough. My interest in explaining it limits to zero, however.

tordirycgoyust
2010-05-13, 04:31 PM
I prefer the omnicificer. Just as powerful, but faster and simpler and IMHO more reliable.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-13, 05:16 PM
I prefer the omnicificer. Just as powerful, but faster and simpler and IMHO more reliable.

i thought the omniscifier doesn't kick off until level 4, where Pun Pun starts at level 1 now?

Doc Roc
2010-05-13, 08:01 PM
i thought the omniscifier doesn't kick off until level 4, where Pun Pun starts at level 1 now?

This is correct, given what I know of Big O.

druid91
2010-05-13, 08:03 PM
Not quite as powerful as it doesn't let you just give yourself powers, but gives you infinite stats and uses one of the stupider rules abuses.

Anyway I like mixing the two together to become an uber-god.

Deca
2010-05-13, 08:07 PM
Especially since we already have a "I hat3z teh LoP/I lov3z teh LoP" thread...this thread doesn't seem to have any purpose beyond "Pun Pun can beat LoP".

Pretty much. Now to continue.


Just because he is ignorant of his greaters does not mean they don't exist.

Your average Pun-Pun isn't going to be ignorant about anything. He knows all. While the Lady might be statless, Pun-Pun can simply make an ability that kills the Lady irreversibly as a free action without a save.

But this discussion is meaningless as I can't really see a reason for these two omnibeings to fight each other. Why would they? I don't imagine that Pun-Pun goes around toppling cosmologies for the lulz. Seems undignified for a being of his stature.

gooddragon1
2010-05-13, 08:27 PM
No such thing. The Lady of Pain is the Lady of Pain. The best you can do is not to anger her and not to touch her shadow on pain of being killed or mazed. Or worse.

I think azathoth or one of the other ones should be enough to take out the lady of pain... and everything else.

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 08:42 PM
Your average Pun-Pun isn't going to be ignorant about anything. He knows all. While the Lady might be statless, Pun-Pun can simply make an ability that kills the Lady irreversibly as a free action without a save.

Where's he get that ability from? :smallconfused:

druid91
2010-05-13, 08:47 PM
Where's he get that ability from? :smallconfused:

He manufactures it from nothing with epic magic. Basically he makes a race of lizards that have this power and then steal it with the sarruhks manipulate form before driving the lizards extinct.

SaintRidley
2010-05-13, 08:50 PM
I think azathoth or one of the other ones should be enough to take out the lady of pain... and everything else.

That blind, gibbering idiot surrounded by his dancing sycophants? Maybe if you got Nyarlathotep in on the action you'd get something done. He'd be as likely to just hang out and let the Lady do her thing, though. You might have luck with Yog-Sothtoth, but you'd need more worms in your brain than you've got brains to do that.

And that's the minimum level you'd need to do something. Cthulhu? Mazed. Jest a puppet of a real Power, ain't he? Mazed already, down in R'lyeh, 'smatter o' fact. The Lady, she has reach and pull. As for that Black Goat o' the Woods with a Thousand Young, Shub-Niggurath, well, a body don't have to look far past ol' 'Thuly to see that you'll need to aim higher and two out o' three options that are higher either can't or probably won't work. And the third? Yer clueless if you think you'll manage something without becoming food.

Best to jest keep yer brain-box down and out o' the way o' the Lady. Makes more sense and lets you maybe live a while.

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 09:38 PM
He manufactures it from nothing with epic magic. Basically he makes a race of lizards that have this power and then steal it with the sarruhks manipulate form before driving the lizards extinct.

As far as I can tell, none of the epic seeds actually let you do that. :smallconfused:

druid91
2010-05-13, 09:45 PM
As far as I can tell, none of the epic seeds actually let you do that. :smallconfused:

Epic spell: Origin of Species allows you to make whatever species you feel like making. If this species happens to be a Homebrew LoP killing lizard... Well thems the breaks.

Deca
2010-05-13, 10:06 PM
Where's he get that ability from? :smallconfused:

Through the bad wording of Manipulate Form, it was determined that not only can Pun-Pun have every ability in every D&D book, he can make up whatever ability he wishes and grant it to himself.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-13, 10:14 PM
Through the bad wording of Manipulate Form, it was determined that not only can Pun-Pun have every ability in every D&D book, he can make up whatever ability he wishes and grant it to himself.

Technically, it's a combination of the bad wording of Manipulate Form and the worse wording of Origin of Species, since in TheoryOp, there is no DM to approve or deny homebrewed monsters with whatever abilities desired.

Yukitsu
2010-05-13, 10:23 PM
Epic spell: Origin of Species allows you to make whatever species you feel like making. If this species happens to be a Homebrew LoP killing lizard... Well thems the breaks.

No, origin of species makes an infant Achierai, not a creature with whatever abilities you can think of.

Zeful
2010-05-13, 11:24 PM
Pun-Pun may anger whoever he pleases. There are no equals to him and he recognises no superiors. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end of all things.

Except no. Any god associated with anything Pun-pun does (like Sseth and Snakes for instance) can see him coming weeks in advance. Long before he ascends. And since Pun-pun would upset the balance of Aber-Toril (where the Sharruk are from), Ao won't care that the other gods obliterate him.

So Pun-pun dies long before he becomes.

The Rabbler
2010-05-13, 11:49 PM
Except no. Any god associated with anything Pun-pun does (like Sseth and Snakes for instance) can see him coming weeks in advance. Long before he ascends. And since Pun-pun would upset the balance of Aber-Toril (where the Sharruk are from), Ao won't care that the other gods obliterate him.

So Pun-pun dies long before he becomes.

I thought the ability was that Gods could forsee any being that would kill them two weeks before they are actually killed?

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-13, 11:53 PM
Whenever I consider any meeting between the rules construct to end rule constructs and the embodiment of narrative fiat (meaning no offense to either party concerned, of course) I figure it would be, well...

They'd never meet what with no gods in Sigil, but if they somehow did?

Kobold would be on his best behavior.

Not just because he'd be lesser, of course. After all, the lowest level double P:

1) Is an (ex) Paladin, and therefore, you know, generally an upstanding type. Not exactly the "I'll kick your ass because I can" brand of adventurer.

2) An old Kobold. Like an old redshirt, that means both wiliness, and a knack for not getting in the way of anyone who could stomp you like a bug. Don't exactly live a long time if you mouth off to your superiors.

3) Near infinite int and wis. He knows whatever game is being run in Sigil, why it works, and, importantly, what would happen if the pieces went flying.

Essentially, you got a guy with all the reason in the world to sit down, shut up, and play nice, and a Lady with a nasty temper when roused. Somehow, I can't see this ending any way other than

"And in general, this is a lovely city. I hate to overstay my welcome, I'll be off now."

Some good points, but clearly, the end result would be that Pun-Pun would give his three floating squirrels some nuts, change their water, recharge their rod of flaying, and leave them to it. :smallwink:

"See you later, little friends!"

Zeful
2010-05-14, 12:50 AM
I thought the ability was that Gods could forsee any being that would kill them two weeks before they are actually killed?

No.

Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have.

Any greater deity would know what you were doing before you even decided to do it.
Tempus would pick up on the battles you would commit before they happened (War, Battles).
Mystra would sense you casting the wish spell through proxy before it happened (Magic).
Oghma (however you spell the Faerun God of knowledge's name) would learn about you learning about this before it happened (Knowledge). Then he'd scry you to find out why you want to know this (also Wisdom is part of his portfolio).
I could probably keep going.

By the time you actually tried to become pun-pun, the gods would have known about it for a couple of months, and by that time decided your judgment (disintegration in my books) one round before the attempt.

Coidzor
2010-05-14, 01:09 AM
1. What happens when something is on a plane when that plane is destroyed?

2. Pun-Pun can destroy entire planes of existence.

3. Pun-Pun is not limited to any single D&D Cosmology. He can even enter and exit Dark Sun.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-14, 01:17 AM
By the time you actually tried to become pun-pun, the gods would have known about it for a couple of months, and by that time decided your judgment (disintegration in my books) one round before the attempt.

But as part of becoming Pun-Pun, he will have given himself arbitrarily high Knowledge checks, so he would know that they have that ability and not do anything to disturb it for however long is necessary after he has enough power to survive their attacks. Or possibly not, depending on the nature of time travel and precognition in the setting.

Zeful
2010-05-14, 01:38 AM
But as part of becoming Pun-Pun, he will have given himself arbitrarily high Knowledge checks, so he would know that they have that ability and not do anything to disturb it for however long is necessary after he has enough power to survive their attacks. Or possibly not, depending on the nature of time travel and precognition in the setting.

If the setting has a God of Knowledge in it as a Greater Deity. You cannot hide learning how to become pun-pun from them. Because of the simple ability to see into the future where their portfolio concerns, because at minimum they can see 16 weeks into the future.

Further, because of the impact of Pun-pun on the setting, no one will be on Pun-pun's side to prevent a god from Hand of Deathing you into oblivion before you become pun-pun.

Deca
2010-05-14, 02:04 AM
No, origin of species makes an infant Achierai, not a creature with whatever abilities you can think of.

No, that's just the example given. An Origin of Species can make anything, providing you can meet the DC.



Except no. Any god associated with anything Pun-pun does (like Sseth and Snakes for instance) can see him coming weeks in advance. Long before he ascends. And since Pun-pun would upset the balance of Aber-Toril (where the Sharruk are from), Ao won't care that the other gods obliterate him.

So Pun-pun dies long before he becomes.

Ah, but Pun-Pun, a being of nigh-infinite power, strikes back through time to stop the gods from killing him back when he was normal, thus retroactively making himself exist.

Zeful
2010-05-14, 02:13 AM
Ah, but Pun-Pun, a being of nigh-infinite power, strikes back through time to stop the gods from killing him back when he was normal, thus retroactively making himself exist.

But that requires Pun-pun first coming into existence. As the gods themselves are gunning for him, he dies before he can complete his ascension and thus can't survive long enough to go back in time to keep any of the gods from smiting himself before he ascends.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-14, 02:23 AM
But that requires Pun-pun first coming into existence. As the gods themselves are gunning for him, he dies before he can complete his ascension and thus can't survive long enough to go back in time to keep any of the gods from smiting himself before he ascends.

+1. Pun Pun's time traveling antics can protect him from people going back in time. They will not protect him from things that stop him naturally prior to becoming Pun Pun.

Deca
2010-05-14, 02:49 AM
But that requires Pun-pun first coming into existence. As the gods themselves are gunning for him, he dies before he can complete his ascension and thus can't survive long enough to go back in time to keep any of the gods from smiting himself before he ascends.

Yes it could.
Consider this scenario:

The kobold who is yet to be Pun-Pun is about to cheese up and take his place in game-breaking history. The gods understandable don't want this to happen.
They are about to destroy him when a mysterious force either kills all of them or otherwise stops them from interfering.

As Pun-Pun is ascending he sees this happening and remembers it. Several years later, he sends the mysterious force back in time.

The inspiration for this idea comes from the 'Time Traveller and the Key' idea. The idea was that a man needs to open a chest. In order to open the chest, he needs the key. The problem is that the key is inside the chest and cannot be taken unless the chest is open.
Then suddenly, himself from the future appears and gives him the key before disappearing again. The man then uses the key to open the chest, get the key out of it and then promptly takes a short trip back in time to give his past self the key.

In other words, when time travel is involved, cause and effect do not have to be in that precise order.

This is how Pun-Pun retroactively stops himself from being killed. His player, after trying out that piece of reasoning, is then hit in the face by the DM.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-14, 02:50 AM
Consider this scenario:

I considered it and decided that it makes no sense. :smalltongue:

Seriously, if you don't exist in the future, you can't go back to the past, even with time travel.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-14, 02:51 AM
If the setting has a God of Knowledge in it as a Greater Deity. You cannot hide learning how to become pun-pun from them. Because of the simple ability to see into the future where their portfolio concerns, because at minimum they can see 16 weeks into the future.

So a deity of knowledge knows anything anyone ever learns? That's quite a powerful ability. Even so, it's fairly vague. The deity "merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is." That could easily be interpreted as "a kobold at coordinates (x,y) is learning about gods." Not something that'd be worth the action to check out. Moreover, it's setting-specific.

Deca
2010-05-14, 02:52 AM
I considered it and decided that it makes no sense. :smalltongue:

Seriously, if you don't exist in the future, you can't go back to the past, even with time travel.

But before the present happens, their are many futures, at least one containing a theoretical Pun-Pun. This Pun-Pun goes back in time to make his future time-line the one that happens.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-14, 02:54 AM
But before the present happens, their are many futures, at least one containing a theoretical Pun-Pun. This Pun-Pun goes back in time to make his future time-line the one that happens.

Those futures cannot affect the past, though, since they are theoretical. What you do in the present can, theoretically and according to some quantum physicists, can affect the past, but what may happen in the future cannot affect the present.

Deca
2010-05-14, 02:55 AM
Those futures cannot affect the past, though, since they are theoretical. What you do in the present can, theoretically and according to some quantum physicists, can affect the past, but what may happen in the future cannot affect the present.

Unless it has time travel. From which Pun-Pun could then travel from his theoretical future timeline to the more concrete present.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 03:16 AM
Unless it has time travel. From which Pun-Pun could then travel from his theoretical future timeline to the more concrete present.

Actually, time travel is extremely complex in D&D due to the fact that it must not contradict or modify the existing RAW of the game. This makes it very. very. weird. We've found it best to envision the universe as a...

You know what? Forget this. I'm going back to metaprogramming in C++.

Coidzor
2010-05-14, 06:04 AM
Actually, time travel is extremely complex in D&D due to the fact that it must not contradict or modify the existing RAW of the game. This makes it very. very. weird. We've found it best to envision the universe as a...

You know what? Forget this. I'm going back to metaprogramming in C++.

Wait, how would time travel contradict RAW? Aren't there already ways to travel back/forward even faster in time using a time-shenanigans on a genesis'd demiplane?

hamishspence
2010-05-14, 06:40 AM
How about Call of Cthulhu d20? The monsters and spells can be imported into 3.0, and converted to 3.5 using the basic rules in the free online booklet. (changes to DR, skills, and some creature types.)

One of the most powerful spells allows you to travel back in time a long way.

druid91
2010-05-14, 08:36 AM
Pun-Pun is basically sarda the sage. Why? because if he had infinite power and lifespan and could arbitrarily increase that whenever you wanted wouldn't he go back to the dawn of time and float there gaining power until by the time that he was born and the plan formulated, he is strong enough to go there and kill all those pesky god things. This would also have a side effect of making him entirely unbeatable as you can't even go back in time to kill him, as he is just as strong then, You can't erase him from the time line either since he was their from the beginning.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-14, 08:54 AM
Also to be fair, the entirety of Kobold-kind would be rooting for him, as well as Kurtulmak. So, someone would be rooting for him in a Pun-Pun vs the Gods situation.

And as Kurtulmak has Kobold-kind as his portfolio, he'd ALSO know about anything being planned against Pun-Pun two weeks or so before it happened. Arguably, he'd know about the Gods learning about Pun-Pun two weeks before THAT happened. Which could arguably allow him time to squirrel Pun-Pun away, perhaps on his own plane/demi-plane (wherever THAT is), for his protection.

Which would leave a low level Kobold wandering around his racial-ancestor-deities holy realm looking confused. Perhaps he stumbles across an ancient tome relating to the Sarruhk and a Demonomicon mention of Pazuzu. Planted their by his time-travelling future self of course.

If nothing else it'd give Kurtulmak enough time to recruit a rag-tag band of unlikely Kobolds to enact a desperate, last-chance plan to save the prophesied scion of their people. :smallbiggrin:

Yukitsu
2010-05-14, 10:49 AM
No, that's just the example given. An Origin of Species can make anything, providing you can meet the DC.



No, origin of the species only creates the Achierai. The conjure seed can create new life in general, but doesn't let you make up literally any ability. It simply lets you "...give a creature spell-like abilities, apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired ability."

There is no epic spell seed that says "automatically kills lady of pain." so I really don't know why you think it's legal to do so.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 02:11 PM
If nothing else it'd give Kurtulmak enough time to recruit a rag-tag band of unlikely Kobolds to enact a desperate, last-chance plan to save the prophesied scion of their people. :smallbiggrin:

Would to play.

druid91
2010-05-14, 05:55 PM
No, origin of the species only creates the Achierai. The conjure seed can create new life in general, but doesn't let you make up literally any ability. It simply lets you "...give a creature spell-like abilities, apply other epic seeds to the epic spell that replicate the desired ability."

There is no epic spell seed that says "automatically kills lady of pain." so I really don't know why you think it's legal to do so.

Wrong, "Origin of species: Achierai" only creates an Achierai, and is the specific example form of "Origin of Species" Which makes whatever the heck you feel like.

As for killing the lady of pain with no save, he has an infinite spell-craft modifier as well as infinite to his casting stat. Thus infinite save DC to his spells combine that with this and LoP goes Bye Bye.
Seed:SLAY Necromancy [Death]
Spellcraft DC: 25
Components: V, S
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial or half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

A spell developed using the slay seed snuffs out the life force of a living creature, killing it instantly. The slay seed kills a creature of up to 80 HD. The subject is entitled to a Fortitude saving throw to survive the attack. If the save is successful, it instead takes 3d6+20 points of damage. For each additional 80 HD affected (or each additional creature affected), increase the Spellcraft DC by +8. Alternatively, a caster can use the slay seed in an epic spell to suppress the life force of the target by bestowing 2d4 transform** negative levels on the target (or half as many transform** negative levels on a successful Fortitude save). For each additional 1d4 transform** negative levels bestowed, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. If the subject has at least as many transform** negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies. If the subject survives and the transform** negative levels persist for 24 hours or longer, the subject must make another Fortitude saving throw, or the transform** negative levels are converted to actual level loss.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 06:33 PM
The Lady of Pain is directorial fiat writ large at the center of the multiverse. Attempting to kill her is like pitching pennies into a black hole and expecting change. Look, I enjoy TO as much as the next guy. More, in fact, almost certainly. But it's generally accepted in the TO community.... or was when there was a TO community, that you just don't arse with the Lady of Pain.

Zeful
2010-05-14, 07:21 PM
And as Kurtulmak has Kobold-kind as his portfolio, he'd ALSO know about anything being planned against Pun-Pun two weeks or so before it happened. Arguably, he'd know about the Gods learning about Pun-Pun two weeks before THAT happened. Which could arguably allow him time to squirrel Pun-Pun away, perhaps on his own plane/demi-plane (wherever THAT is), for his protection.

Only greater Deities can see into the future. Intermediate deities can see into the past. I honestly doubt that Kurtulmak is a greater Deity. Most gods will want to see Pun-pun destroyed so hiding him away is pretty much going to guarantee his abettor's immanent de-powering and or destruction.

While Pun-pun can theoretically be done, in most settings, he will be irrecoverably destroyed long before he completes his ascension.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 07:25 PM
Only greater Deities can see into the future. Intermediate deities can see into the past. I honestly doubt that Kurtulmak is a greater Deity. Most gods will want to see Pun-pun destroyed so hiding him away is pretty much going to guarantee his abettor's immanent de-powering and or destruction.

While Pun-pun can theoretically be done, in most settings, he will be irrecoverably destroyed long before he completes his ascension.

He can also be killed post-ascension. Please trust me on this.

Zeful
2010-05-14, 07:44 PM
I'm not denying that he can. I'm just saying that for the most part, it'll be unnecessary, because the gods will kill him before that.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-14, 07:56 PM
He can also be killed post-ascension. Please trust me on this.

Not saying you're untrustworthy, but at what level of PunPunitude/rules abuse does this extend? I'm not sure how you can kill something that's invented its own (Ex) quality: I Cannot Be Defeated and (Ex): I Can Never Lose Any of My Abilities Or Qualities.

Not that this makes Zeful any less right, though.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-14, 08:27 PM
So a deity of knowledge knows anything anyone ever learns? That's quite a powerful ability. Even so, it's fairly vague. The deity "merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is." That could easily be interpreted as "a kobold at coordinates (x,y) is learning about gods." Not something that'd be worth the action to check out. Moreover, it's setting-specific.

Setting specific? You mean, like the Sarrukh? :smallamused:

And yes, it's powerful. These are gods, not journeymen adventurers.

The higher levels of deific power will know about pretty much anything related to their portfolios.

So any greater deity of trickery? Will have a line on the process.
Any greater deity of Evil? Will have a line on Pazuzu's actions.
Any greater deity of Scalykind? Ditto.
Any greater deity of knowledge? Knows what everyone learns, and when they learn it. Yeah, crazy. but true.


Not saying you're untrustworthy, but at what level of PunPunitude/rules abuse does this extend? I'm not sure how you can kill something that's invented its own (Ex) quality: I Cannot Be Defeated and (Ex): I Can Never Lose Any of My Abilities Or Qualities.

Not that this makes Zeful any less right, though.

The last ex can't be given, as a sarrukh, by its ability, can remove any ability. Also, Pun pun can grant himself abilities and features, not qualities.

There are limits to what he can do. Not many, but they exist.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 08:31 PM
Not saying you're untrustworthy, but at what level of PunPunitude/rules abuse does this extend? I'm not sure how you can kill something that's invented its own (Ex) quality: I Cannot Be Defeated and (Ex): I Can Never Lose Any of My Abilities Or Qualities.

Not that this makes Zeful any less right, though.

The original pun-pun did not\does not take advantage of what amounts to a monte carlo attack on the universe that hinges on abuse of the far-realm and using chained timestops as a "no-ship." This combined with long-chain time regression meant that if you were online first (and you could be, provably), pun-pun gets unmade pretty reliably. This operates on the assumption that AS can't be used to generate certain flavors of abilities without any mechanical precedent, one that is considered a reasonable assumption. Even so, however, if pun-pun is unaware of this particular exploit, then he dies to it effectively irregardless.

It bears mention that I do not think there is a greater deity with knowledge as a domain. Which is really weird and says a lot about Wizards of the Coast, in a way. ;)

Yukitsu
2010-05-14, 08:47 PM
Wrong, "Origin of species: Achierai" only creates an Achierai, and is the specific example form of "Origin of Species" Which makes whatever the heck you feel like.

As for killing the lady of pain with no save, he has an infinite spell-craft modifier as well as infinite to his casting stat. Thus infinite save DC to his spells combine that with this and LoP goes Bye Bye.


I can't seem to find this origin of the species without Achierai attached to it, and more importantly, pun-pun doesn't reach infinite stats, he reaches arbitrary stats, which isn't capable of exceeding or equalling infinite.

Zeful
2010-05-14, 09:03 PM
It bears mention that I do not think there is a greater deity with knowledge as a domain. Which is really weird and says a lot about Wizards of the Coast, in a way. ;)

There is no deity with 16 divine ranks and Knowledge or Secrets as part of their portfolio?

I'm pretty sure that Baccob, Vecna and Wee Jas all have at least one of these elements.

theMycon
2010-05-14, 09:08 PM
I can't seem to find this origin of the species without Achierai attached to it.

Read the second paragraph under epic seed: conjure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/conjure.htm). It doesn't specifically say "This creates a spell called origin of species", however, it explicitly says that it does exactly what he is claiming origin of species does.

Yukitsu
2010-05-14, 10:22 PM
Read the second paragraph under epic seed: conjure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/conjure.htm). It doesn't specifically say "This creates a spell called origin of species", however, it explicitly says that it does exactly what he is claiming origin of species does.

No it doesn't. I cited that specifically as the seed, not him, but it only grants epic spells to the creature. He's trying to invent one that doesn't have a seed, because pun pun has arbitrary, not infinite stats, and there is no seed that lets you automatically kill the lady of pain. Slay is also a death effect, so most things about level 15 have some immunity to it.

druid91
2010-05-14, 10:57 PM
No it doesn't. I cited that specifically as the seed, not him, but it only grants epic spells to the creature. He's trying to invent one that doesn't have a seed, because pun pun has arbitrary, not infinite stats, and there is no seed that lets you automatically kill the lady of pain. Slay is also a death effect, so most things about level 15 have some immunity to it.


I can't seem to find this origin of the species without Achierai attached to it, and more importantly, pun-pun doesn't reach infinite stats, he reaches arbitrary stats, which isn't capable of exceeding or equalling infinite.

It isn't there, that's the only example of the spell given, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other forms though because I was under the impression that epic spell-casting was set up so you could make your own spells, and the ones given were just examples.

Slay is either a death effect or it grants negative levels.

And just because he is pun pun doesn't mean he can't use the Omnicifier loop to get his hands on infinite power. That is if I am remembering the Omniscifier trick right, it grants infinity to a multitude of things one of which was skill checks, Which epic casting functions off of. Thus + infinity to spell casting means he can cast whatever he feels like. If this happens to be granting infinite negative levels with an infinitely high save well there isn't much to be done about it.

Though I think this battle just ends with the dm saying "Fine!! You want to break the setting? Go right ahead the lady of pain dies, sigil dies along with her and the entirety of the multi-verse explodes in one instant."
"..... I cast surelife."
"RAAAGH!!!!"
*Sound of Dm thwacking the player upside the head with the dungeon masters guide repeatedly*:smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2010-05-14, 11:10 PM
"Fine!! You want to break the setting? Go right ahead the lady of pain dies, sigil dies along with her and the entirety of the multi-verse explodes in one instant."
"..... I cast surelife."
"RAAAGH!!!!"
*Sound of Dm thwacking the player upside the head with the dungeon masters guide repeatedly*:smallbiggrin:

No the answer is:
"So you want to break the setting? [Overdeity] kills you"
"But I'm immune to all forms of attack, damage and instantly revive if I die."
"Yeah, but [Overdeity] created the rules your character abides by, he can change change them at his whim. It's why he doesn't have stats."

druid91
2010-05-14, 11:15 PM
No the answer is:
"So you want to break the setting? [Overdeity] kills you"
"But I'm immune to all forms of attack, damage and instantly revive if I die."
"Yeah, but [Overdeity] created the rules your character abides by, he can change change them at his whim. It's why he doesn't have stats."

And thats when you set the rulebooks on fire for fear of [Overdeity] getting out.:smallwink:

chiasaur11
2010-05-14, 11:27 PM
Hmm.

If'n I remember right, Pun Pun had, as a core aspect of creation, the step

"Get out of dodge".

I.E. out of the view of deities entirely. One of the three wishes the COI gets him.

So, all portfolios would ping for is "Somebody went off grid."

And somehow, I doubt that gets the fury of the heavens all riled up.

Zeful
2010-05-14, 11:30 PM
Hmm.

If'n I remember right, Pun Pun had, as a core aspect of creation, the step

"Get out of dodge".

I.E. out of the view of deities entirely. One of the three wishes the COI gets him.

So, all portfolios would ping for is "Somebody went off grid."

And somehow, I doubt that gets the fury of the heavens all riled up.

And how is a wish mortal magic somehow masking this kobold's presence from the Gods?

Yukitsu
2010-05-14, 11:32 PM
It isn't there, that's the only example of the spell given, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist in other forms though because I was under the impression that epic spell-casting was set up so you could make your own spells, and the ones given were just examples.

Slay is either a death effect or it grants negative levels.

And just because he is pun pun doesn't mean he can't use the Omnicifier loop to get his hands on infinite power. That is if I am remembering the Omniscifier trick right, it grants infinity to a multitude of things one of which was skill checks, Which epic casting functions off of. Thus + infinity to spell casting means he can cast whatever he feels like. If this happens to be granting infinite negative levels with an infinitely high save well there isn't much to be done about it.

No, still only arbitrarily high. Approaching infinite isn't as high as infinite. And as mentioned, the achierai is the only origin of the species spell. In all other cases, you have to defer to the rules under the creation seed.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 11:32 PM
Hmm.

If'n I remember right, Pun Pun had, as a core aspect of creation, the step

"Get out of dodge".

I.E. out of the view of deities entirely. One of the three wishes the COI gets him.

So, all portfolios would ping for is "Somebody went off grid."

And somehow, I doubt that gets the fury of the heavens all riled up.

Um, information is power in D&Dverse. The moment you try to go off the grid, you get a visit from some very friendly mindblanked solars who happen to be initiates of mystra. It goes downhill from there.

Cybren
2010-05-14, 11:51 PM
ITT: we learn that pun-pun is a completely theoretical rules exercise one shouldn't try to use for any other purpose but said theoretical rules exercises, and that the lady of pain is completely boring (and mostly useless) as a narrative concept.

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 11:58 PM
ITT: we learn that pun-pun is a completely theoretical rules exercise one shouldn't try to use for any other purpose but said theoretical rules exercises, and that the lady of pain is completely boring (and mostly useless) as a narrative concept.

She's not really supposed to be used as a narrative concept. She's an anchoring point to hang sigil on, and explain why the blood war doesn't sweep through. More than that, she's just there. That was her gig. No answers, no reasons, no interaction, and the city spins around her like a top on an invisible axis.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-15, 06:32 AM
I think this and the other LoP thread have finally convinced of something.

Statless creatures should not ever exist. Period.

They should be placed in exactly the same place as infinite loops, Pun-Pun and all the other TO concepts, and be disbarred from the game.

For one thing, you shouldn't need them.

If you made the Lady of Pain 1000HD, for example - and gave her feats, epic (and possibly beyond) spells commensurate with the power-scaling of D&D, you wouldn't be able to kill her anyway1. She could take 20 levels in every single character class and a good chunk of the PrCs and have full access to any broken builds the players could come up with, because she'll have all of them herself.

But, she's still technically killable, just not by anyone whose not in the 992th and above level range. (And I think that is grossly over doing it. If you actually gave epic creatures a reason power progression instead of the soild drop-off at 21st level and the frankly laughable stats in Dieties and Demigods, 60th level should be as utterly terrifiying as it sounds. A 60th level wizard, should, even accounting for epic-slow down, ought to be able to pulverise 30-40th level parties without even breaking a sweat, the same way a 20th level wizard should be able to annhilate 10-12th level characters.) Or by anyone using a non-combat fiat method (such as the afore-mentioned making people not believe in her method.)

I think there's a world of difference between stats-several-orders-of-magnitude-better-than-you and unstated. Statless creatures encourage any form of debate by otherwise polite, intelligent people (such as yourselves...well some of you anyway...) to devolve down into the "nuh-uh, my thing is better than yours!" "nuh-un, no it isnt'" found in infant schools. The whole entire point you HAVE rules is to avoid this kind of thing. It's one thing to say "her stats are sufficently high that you just don't have the ability to harm her" and an entriely different one to say "she is unstated and therefore infinitately powerful". (Particularly as the two are not actually related. An individual ant is not stated; doesn't mean they are infinitely powerful, does it...)

The entire of reality is not indestructible, and no entity in it, regardless of how cool they are, or what their narrative purpose is, or whatever should be or can be more indestructible than the entire multiverse.

I'm pretty sure if you dropped the black hole from the centre of a galaxy into Sigil, no-one, not Sigil itself, not the Lady, not the dirty great spirey-thing it's balanced on top of would survive. Granted, no PCs should ever be in a position to ever be able to do that kind of thing, but the point remains.

(I shouldn't unfairly single out the LoP, either, as they are plenty of other settings and rules that commit exactly the same mistake. Call of Cthulu for one; Warhammer 40k would be the worst offender since apparently if [side] could overcome that one tiny thing that's holding them back the [all others sides] are screwed, and of course the head of [side] is basically unkillable and infinately powerful...)




Now, all that said, at the same time, I don't advocate allowing the PCs to randomly destroy the campaign world/universe, either. That is, let's face it, rather a jerk action, often soley rooted in being able to get one over and "beat" the DM (or another player) and metaphorically kick sand in his face. Anyone trying to do that should be dealt with out of character by the DM smacking them once with each and every book in the rule set used, plus any mass of paperwork he's spent putting into the setting. (Or use my tried and tested method of dealign with out-of-character problems, which is to use Maximised Disintegrate on the player in question. The rest don't tend to give you trouble after they brush the dust of their character sheets and carry one.)

But yes, Internet, congratulate yourself on that for once, you've actually managed to change my opinion. (Though perhaps not towards the favour of any side of the debate, true to my typical form...)



1For example, there's at least two feats I am aware of that make it impossible to fail a fort save on a natural 1. Pre-Epic. It stand to reason that at some point, epic characters - and divinities should be the basic divine stuff pasted onto Epic characters - would have access to feats that would allow them to do that with other saves.

Doc Roc
2010-05-15, 07:30 AM
So, in other words, we wouldn't need nuclear weapons if no one else had them. But I can and will hit, then insta-gib your LoP, with a non-infinite build. Unless you start giving it No abilities and repair the entire epic progression issue, and avoid epic spell-casting and fix some serious issues with 9th level spells, and---


The list goes on. At which point, it's just as well to make it stat-less.
Sometimes expediency trumps. It is faster and easier for everyone to just make her statless.

BobVosh
2010-05-15, 07:42 AM
So, in other words, we wouldn't need nuclear weapons if no one else had them. But I can and will hit, then insta-gib your LoP, with a non-infinite build. Unless you start giving it No abilities and repair the entire epic progression issue, and avoid epic spell-casting and fix some serious issues with 9th level spells, and---


The list goes on. At which point, it's just as well to make it stat-less.
Sometimes expediency trumps. It is faster and easier for everyone to just make her statless.

Exactly. There is no reason to give her stats. Especially pre-epic. If your players really want to and are somewhere near the appropriate level (whatever that may be) then build one yourself. The fact is noone really wants to kill her, nor should they, as she is just a concept for a campaign setting.

Doc Roc
2010-05-15, 07:47 AM
Exactly. There is no reason to give her stats. Especially pre-epic. If your players really want to and are somewhere near the appropriate level (whatever that may be) then build one yourself. The fact is noone really wants to kill her, nor should they, as she is just a concept for a campaign setting.

She's like the sun, for Sigil. She emits..... okay, so she emits annihilatory madness instead of life-giving warmth, but you get what I mean?

ZeroNumerous
2010-05-15, 07:58 AM
I'm pretty sure if you dropped the black hole from the centre of a galaxy into Sigil, no-one, not Sigil itself, not the Lady, not the dirty great spirey-thing it's balanced on top of would survive.

Magic.

See, it works like this:

"Physics? Ya, I beat him up and take his lunch money." - Magic.

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 07:59 AM
Doc Roc: No, because the Lady of Pain is not a sacred cow for me.


Exactly. There is no reason to give her stats. Especially pre-epic. If your players really want to and are somewhere near the appropriate level (whatever that may be) then build one yourself. The fact is noone really wants to kill her, nor should they, as she is just a concept for a campaign setting.

Um. Everest anyone? Also, canonically, Vecna wants her offed after the events that led up to the edition change to 3rd Ed.


Magic.

See, it works like this:

"Physics? Ya, I beat him up and take his lunch money." - Magic.

Technically black holes are just larger spheres of annihilation... So it'd be dropping an up-sized sphere of annihilation to wreak planar havok.

So it'd be whatever you'd do to deal with a giant, world-devouring sphere of annihilation.

ZeroNumerous
2010-05-15, 08:03 AM
So it'd be whatever you'd do to deal with a giant, world-devouring sphere of annihilation.

So basically it instantly dissolves as it hits one of the many Rod of Cancellation magic items in Sigil?

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 08:06 AM
So basically it instantly dissolves as it hits one of the many Rod of Cancellation magic items in Sigil?

If those can deal with epic magic, sure.

ZeroNumerous
2010-05-15, 08:14 AM
If those can deal with epic magic, sure.

Oh, epic magic? Then it's an entirely moot point as any epic spellcaster uses one of his/her many free-action "I End The Problem" buttons. Probably epically teleporting the sphere to, I dunno, the NEP?

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-15, 08:57 AM
Magic.

See, it works like this:

"Physics? Ya, I beat him up and take his lunch money." - Magic.

And this is exactly my point. I could have substituted the LoP for the Necron's C'Tan, or Cthulu or heck, Chuck Norris and the black hole for anything at all. And someone would have no doubt have said exactly the same thing, i.e. "no, [statless entity] would have totally have ."

It's not even like the verses threads, because (most of) those actually deal with things that have [I]some measurable ability; get two statless things fight and you're back to children in the playground.

Canonically, the LoP is not unilaterally all-powerful (and like it or not Die Vecna Die! is canon, the same as Ewoks and Jar-Jar Binks are canon, despite how much I loathe them). But, the LoP has become Planescape's Mary-Sue; as Pun-Pun has become the Mary-Sue of TO (along with the Omnificier) as Chuck Norris has become of internet memes (along with Mr. T); intentional or not, whether she's supposed to be or not, whether's she really only supposed to be a device for smacking down players who want to be disruptive or not, simply part of the background of the setting or not, that's how she is always coming across in any discussion. Seriously, we've got two threads of some people genuinely saying "the Lady of Pain is infinitely powerful and nothing you can ever convieve of, as a player, or as a DM or as TOer making an infinitely powerful character, should ever work because the LoP is teh ubers." (And just to be crystal clear, you can replace LoP in the predeing sentence with any statless entity of your choice (or arguably Pun-Pun).)

Is the uber-superiority of these statless entities really so important that even the most far-fetched theoretical schemes, so far beyond what a PC could ever manage it is laughable, must be smacked down? Really?

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 10:47 AM
Dangit. Now you've managed to actually get me to feel ashamed of myself for being in the thread and contributing to it.

Ashamed of something done on the internet... ouch...x,x

Yukitsu
2010-05-15, 10:48 AM
Considering the entire point of several of them is to slap down players (not characters, players) that try to get too uppity, and several of the builds attempting to beat her are in fact versions of players being uppity, yes.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-15, 11:34 AM
Considering the entire point of several of them is to slap down players (not characters, players) that try to get too uppity, and several of the builds attempting to beat her are in fact versions of players being uppity, yes.

And this is preferrable to dealing with problem players out-of-character (e.g. "dude, stop being a disruptive jerk1.") how?

I was under the impression that having the DM come in and slap the player's character to death with a "rocks fall, you die" was generally considered to be poor DMing practice, whether it's done by his pet NPC, god or, in these cases, deus ex machina.



Coidzor: Sorry.

(Well, not really... I am Evil after all...)



1Or in my case, by abruptly disintegrating the player into dust. But I'm kinda harsh...

Yukitsu
2010-05-15, 12:31 PM
It's one of those things that varies by philosophy. Several of those settings say "rocks fall everyone dies" as basically standard practice as opposed to the more nice OOC responses to player jerkarsery. Once players are in the theory op in an actual game sort of jerkiness, you'll find I support the former, because you should have already done the latter long ago.

Zeful
2010-05-15, 01:14 PM
I was under the impression that having the DM come in and slap the player's character to death with a "rocks fall, you die" was generally considered to be poor DMing practice, whether it's done by his pet NPC, god or, in these cases, deus ex machina.

For normal situations and differing playstyles, yes it is. For someone bringing very inappropriate Theoretical Optimization to the actual game table (Playing a Kobold is fine, playing a kobold Egoist/Paladin/what-have-you is also fine. A kobold Paladin calling Pazuzu is not) it should be the appropriate response between "Ahahahaha... wait you're serious", and "Leave, and don't come back until you can explain to me why what you did was wrong"

Dealing with people you don't like is part of DMing. Dealing with people intentionally trying the ruin the game is also part of DMing, but you have a reason to get rid of them.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-15, 05:12 PM
Dealing with people you don't like is part of DMing. Dealing with people intentionally trying the ruin the game is also part of DMing, but you have a reason to get rid of them.

I disagree completely, I'm afraid.

First of all, I make it a point, when pursuing my hobbies, to play with my actual y'know, fiends...er...I mean, friends.

The most common response to any sort of player disruption problem in any of the numerous threads on the subject is (rightly) always deal with out-of-character problems out-of-character. If you have fallen to the level where you have to respond in kind to a disruptive player, it IS a sign of poor DMing, because you have failed to deal with the problem at the source.

Maybe, just MAYBE, that sort of heavy-handed approach might be acceptable in a convention sort of game, where time is limited and you might be playing with total strangers. But certainly not to the average game, which you play with your friends. And definately not to the point where you have to hard-code it into the setting and make infinitely powerful uber-Mary Sues/deus ex machina for the express purpose of duffing up the players characters1. (Besides, if you are going to do that, you hardly need to justify it by having infinitely powerful beings, the gods or the rocks themselves will do just as well.) It, is frankly, a bit of a childish response or, at the very least, one mired in an unhelpful "players vrs DM" attitude that is almost always bad for the game.

Jerk players are going to be jerks whatever; the best response is simply to not to play with them, not get passive-agressive revenge by killing their characters off. Treat the disease, not the symptom.



1I mean, does that sentence not just sound like the entire antithesis of good DMing practise?

Yukitsu
2010-05-15, 06:05 PM
Depends on the group. This forum tends to advocate a lovey dovey let's talk about our feelings approach to problems, whereas if you decided to play with people who are more into warhammer for instance, they deal with this sort of thing by punching the player in the stomach and stealing his army case. I see both as fine given their own context, just not for everyone.

Me personally, I will always respond to a character problem (character X is theory opped is, IMO a character problem, player Y is metagaming is a player problem IMO.) with an in world, reasonable response, because if making pun-pun in the world as it is, is possible with no consequince, why shouldn't a player have that option? Whereas a world that has taken pun-pun into consideration need not worry about this.

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 06:15 PM
Depends on the group. This forum tends to advocate a lovey dovey let's talk about our feelings approach to problems, whereas if you decided to play with people who are more into warhammer for instance, they deal with this sort of thing by punching the player in the stomach and stealing his army case. I see both as fine given their own context, just not for everyone.

Wait. What? :smallconfused: Assault and theft? ...Those are considered... good practice...:smallconfused:

...Well, remind me not to deal with warhammer players in the future if that's... par for the course.

...Ed: No, I'm sticking with my initial reaction.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-15, 06:16 PM
Depends on the group. This forum tends to advocate a lovey dovey let's talk about our feelings approach to problems, whereas if you decided to play with people who are more into warhammer for instance, they deal with this sort of thing by punching the player in the stomach and stealing his army case. I see both as fine given their own context, just not for everyone.

Me personally, I will always respond to a character problem (character X is theory opped is, IMO a character problem, player Y is metagaming is a player problem IMO.) with an in world, reasonable response, because if making pun-pun in the world as it is, is possible with no consequince, why shouldn't a player have that option? Whereas a world that has taken pun-pun into consideration need not worry about this.

I'm an avid Warhammer player. Am I DOIN IT RONG when I don't act like this?

Yukitsu
2010-05-15, 06:18 PM
Old joke for people who spent time on the forums for it back in like, 2003. As far as I know, Sovoth is the only person who's ever actually done that. But it is a more competetive game, so I do find we're a bit more hostile as opposed to cooperative than people who just play D&D. Unless you never play tourneys.

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 06:26 PM
Old joke for people who spent time on the forums for it back in like, 2003. As far as I know, Sovoth is the only person who's ever actually done that. But it is a more competetive game, so I do find we're a bit more hostile as opposed to cooperative than people who just play D&D. Unless you never play tourneys.

Well, yeah, you put your wallet AND ego on the line. That's just a recipe for bad blood and hostility to be increased, especially amongst males. Plus the game is actually about competing against one's fellows and utterly destroying them.

I am relieved that warhammer players are not actually krogan though.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-15, 08:03 PM
I feel obliged to say on behalf of my fellow wargamers, that I have been wargaming for twenty years (and I consider myself a wargamer first and a roleplayer second, despite the fact I tend to more of the latter) and I have never encountered or even heard of the sort of behavior Yukitsu describes.

Granted, I don't pesonally play competition games (but most wargamers don't), nor Games Workshop games, but several of the conventions we normally go to do have competition games (and people I know compete in them) and some of my friends do both; and about half of the Derby Wargame Society are Warhammer players. It is certainly not tolerated behavior in any wargames gathering I can think of. Most clubs would kick out someone showing that kind of behavior without even a first thought, never mind a second.



Yukitsu, may I ask what corner of the world you are from?

Deca
2010-05-15, 08:14 PM
Depends on the group. This forum tends to advocate a lovey dovey let's talk about our feelings approach to problems, whereas if you decided to play with people who are more into warhammer for instance, they deal with this sort of thing by punching the player in the stomach and stealing his army case. I see both as fine given their own context, just not for everyone.



Yep. That's the Warhammer way. Haven't you guys been to an official Warhammer tournament? Games Workshop employs people specifically to hunt down problem players and beat the bejesus out of them before taking their stuff. Pretty common really. Happens all the time.

/Sarcasm

Yukitsu
2010-05-15, 10:11 PM
I feel obliged to say on behalf of my fellow wargamers, that I have been wargaming for twenty years (and I consider myself a wargamer first and a roleplayer second, despite the fact I tend to more of the latter) and I have never encountered or even heard of the sort of behavior Yukitsu describes.

Granted, I don't pesonally play competition games (but most wargamers don't), nor Games Workshop games, but several of the conventions we normally go to do have competition games (and people I know compete in them) and some of my friends do both; and about half of the Derby Wargame Society are Warhammer players. It is certainly not tolerated behavior in any wargames gathering I can think of. Most clubs would kick out someone showing that kind of behavior without even a first thought, never mind a second.

Was a well known post by a guy called Sovoth. This is 7 years ago, so my memory is a bit fuzzy on the issue, but when he described how an opponent in his matchup was basically cheating, he said he punched him in the stomach and stole his army case. It used to be a bit of a meme in the old warhammer players society forum, then it died when they started charging money for the site and it basically died out overnight. Before then, we all advised newbs to Sovothize cheaters and munchkins, which no one really took seriously (I hope).




Yukitsu, may I ask what corner of the world you are from?

Calgary Canada.

Zeful
2010-05-16, 05:24 AM
First of all, I make it a point, when pursuing my hobbies, to play with my actual y'know, fiends...er...I mean, friends. I currently have few friends and for a while there were several people. Further I am not nice, as several other of my posts about DMing point out.

I have no problem using many of the "Gentlemen's agreement" spells. Wizard's spell-books and weapons are fair game when it comes to theft and destruction thereof (following in refuseale of the absurd concept that the enemies actually care about the perceived value of the gear). I ban a large number of material this forum incessently discusses (There is no Celerity at my table. In fact, the book it's from is not allowed in-play).


The most common response to any sort of player disruption problem in any of the numerous threads on the subject is (rightly) always deal with out-of-character problems out-of-character. If you have fallen to the level where you have to respond in kind to a disruptive player, it IS a sign of poor DMing, because you have failed to deal with the problem at the source.

Maybe, just MAYBE, that sort of heavy-handed approach might be acceptable in a convention sort of game, where time is limited and you might be playing with total strangers. But certainly not to the average game, which you play with your friends. And definately not to the point where you have to hard-code it into the setting and make infinitely powerful uber-Mary Sues/deus ex machina for the express purpose of duffing up the players characters1. (Besides, if you are going to do that, you hardly need to justify it by having infinitely powerful beings, the gods or the rocks themselves will do just as well.) It, is frankly, a bit of a childish response or, at the very least, one mired in an unhelpful "players vrs DM" attitude that is almost always bad for the game.And? People who bring theoretical builds that are never supposed to see play are told to leave, and not come back until they understand what they did wrong; for the kind of people I want to be playing with, it's ten seconds and a torn character sheet.


1I mean, does that sentence [(And definately not to the point where you have to hard-code it into the setting and make infinitely powerful uber-Mary Sues/deus ex machina for the express purpose of duffing up the players characters1.)] not just sound like the entire antithesis of good DMing practise?
I don't see anything wrong with it. Someone capable of summoning Pazuzu (Knowledge: religion) would know that the god are very envious and powerful, angering all of them leads to you dieing, so not Deus Ex Machina (as they aren't unknown, and aren't just showing up to wrap up an unwrappable plot string, and thus aren't Deus Ex Machina by definition), and they're responding with very human emotions as applied to the situations and since there's a pantheon, they're also not Mary Sues, again, by definition. As for the Overdiety; it's mostly to shut up the people on forums that say that X non-overdiety is invincible, like pun-pun.