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Kylas
2010-05-13, 09:24 AM
I wanted to build a Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)
but I think it needs tweaking. I wanted to see if I could qualify earlier than a straight PsyWar and I also wanted some more versatility so I used an Ardent with Practiced Manifester feat.

Added 1 level of Santified Mind (Libris Mortis) for the BaB and mental resistance, and also the abilities go well with the Magic Mantle. but this can be replaced by one more level of Ardent.

3 Ardent/2 Fighter/1 Santified Mind/8-10 Psychic Weapon Master/X Santified Mind

Feats:
1st: Iron Will
Human: Dodge
Flaw: Psionic Dodge
Mantle: Weapon Focus
Fgt 1: Power Attack
3rd: Practiced Manifester
Fgt 2: Mobility
6th: Psionic Weapon Focus

This build qualifies at level 7 whereas straight PsyWar needs level 8. As for my weapon I was thinking falchion or scythe (DM is allowing conflict mantle to give free weapon prof. as long as I don't abuse it), what weapon would be best for PWM improved crit ability?


I especially need help in picking combat powers as I don't have the most experience with psionics. I definitely need to get the Conflict Mantle and maybe the Magic Mantle what others would be useful and which could i make use of the substitute power ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-05-13, 10:59 AM
I wanted to build a Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)
but I think it needs tweaking. I wanted to see if I could qualify earlier than a straight PsyWar and I also wanted some more versatility so I used an Ardent with Practiced Manifester feat.

Added 1 level of Santified Mind (Libris Mortis) for the BaB and mental resistance, and also the abilities go well with the Magic Mantle. but this can be replaced by one more level of Ardent.

3 Ardent/2 Fighter/1 Santified Mind/8-10 Psychic Weapon Master/X Santified Mind

Feats:
1st: Iron Will
Human: Dodge
Flaw: Psionic Dodge
Mantle: Weapon Focus
Fgt 1: Power Attack
3rd: Practiced Manifester
Fgt 2: Mobility
6th: Psionic Weapon Focus

This build qualifies at level 7 whereas straight PsyWar needs level 8. As for my weapon I was thinking falchion or scythe (DM is allowing conflict mantle to give free weapon prof. as long as I don't abuse it), what weapon would be best for PWM improved crit ability?


I especially need help in picking combat powers as I don't have the most experience with psionics. I definitely need to get the Conflict Mantle and maybe the Magic Mantle what others would be useful and which could i make use of the substitute power ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a).



its worth take the feat improved crit and letting psi-master to imrpove it further. do to stackign rules a falction could get down to
11-20 threat range or something stupid like that.

nyarlathotep
2010-05-13, 11:42 AM
It'd be 13-20 but still really good.

As for feats have you considered ditching the falchion and taking improved natural attack. :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-05-13, 11:51 AM
It'd be 13-20 but still really good.

As for feats have you considered ditching the falchion and taking improved natural attack. :smallbiggrin:

natural attacks don't work with psi weapon master.
unless you can make your natural attacks count as crystal.


I just did the math it would be:
18-20 for falction
16-20 for the psiweapon master.
11-20 with improved crit.

remember you can choose stacking order.

Kylas
2010-05-13, 08:59 PM
natural attacks don't work with psi weapon master.
unless you can make your natural attacks count as crystal.


I just did the math it would be:
18-20 for falction
16-20 for the psiweapon master.
11-20 with improved crit.

remember you can choose stacking order.

Holy crap if your right that would be awesome but i just don't see the logic.


Improved Critical: The psychic weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her weapon of choice's threat range for critical hits.

Using Long sword, if you already have the Imp crit feat your at 17-20. Gaining this ability gives you an additional +2 making you 15-20. If you don't have the feat and gain the class feature your at 17-20. Gaining the feat later 2 versions of the same feat in which case (barring a strict Dm would give you) only allow you to gain the +2 from the class feature. If I'm wrong, please sir, prove me wrong. I'd like to be able to convince my DM.

Pluto
2010-05-13, 09:10 PM
remember you can choose stacking order.
Whoa. You're right.

And if you rule the stacking to work in the opposite order (as the text seems to imply), Keen [I] or [I]Impact should also work -- they wouldn't be stacking with Improved Critical, after all, they'd be stacking with the flat bonus.

Weezer
2010-05-13, 09:12 PM
Holy crap if your right that would be awesome but i just don't see the logic.


Since you choose the order of applying effects you apply the weapon master increase before that of imp. critical.

Using a falcion:
18-20 (base range of 3)
16-20 (range of 5 with weapon master adding 2)
11-20 (range of 10 with imp. critical doubling range)

for a citation:

When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.

I'm pretty sure that's what he was getting at.

Kylas
2010-05-13, 10:57 PM
Since you choose the order of applying effects you apply the weapon master increase before that of imp. critical.

Using a falcion:
18-20 (base range of 3)
16-20 (range of 5 with weapon master adding 2)
11-20 (range of 10 with imp. critical doubling range)

for a citation:


I'm pretty sure that's what he was getting at.
I understand the math but what exactly is allowing you to apply the bonus out of order. The way your saying it sounds like u gain the feat, it floats in the ether then you gain the class ability which garants you +2. Then you apply the +2 to your weapon then you apply improved crit to your weapon. Granted I like it that way but what im saying is wouldn't you have to apply the improved crit to a weapon the minute you gained it from either source. Also wouldn't you not be able to gain the +2 until you had improved crit already applied to your weapon of choice?

If what your saying works then I could take improved crit on a scythe, gain my class feature and add +2 making it 18-20 scythe then apply my improved crit feat making it 15-20 scythe? What was my improved crit doing before i applied my class feature?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-13, 11:05 PM
I would suggest going in at psywar 8, rather than burning levels on getting in a bit early. Those two manifester levels are much more powerful than anything you'd get out of fighter levels.

Kylas
2010-05-13, 11:44 PM
I would suggest going in at psywar 8, rather than burning levels on getting in a bit early. Those two manifester levels are much more powerful than anything you'd get out of fighter levels.

If I calculate correctly a full Psywar going PWM at level 8 and taking 8 levels of PWM will have ML11, BaB 13, Base PP 35, 11 powers and max 4th level powers. All at ECL 15.
My build at ECL 15: ML 12, Bab 15, Base PP 58, 9 powers and max 6th level powers. This is with Slayer or SM build and Practiced Manifester. I'm not 100% sure but my math looks good to me. I don't know if 2 lower level powers are worth the loss in overall power level of my powers. Like I said not the best with the crunch so i might be wrong.

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-13, 11:47 PM
Caster/Manifester levels are always better than levels without them. Unless you have something really convincing like planar bubble.

Pluto
2010-05-14, 12:35 AM
max 4th level powers
...
max 6th level powers.
This is where things get kinda hazy. If it comes down to it, the PWar can put 15 PP into a power (8th level power equivalent); the Ardent can only use 13 PP (7th level power equivalent). Not that either should be burning a whole lot of power points at a time like that, but it's possible.

Can you use the Custom Mantle ACF? If not, the Ardent has pretty slim pickings in its 3 mantles for powerful melee powers.

And even though the Fighter isn't all that great, feats are worth something. Especially to a character that has to both manifest and fight competently [and at the same time].

I wouldn't call either a bad build though. Compared to non-manifesting Fighter analogues, they're both going to have a ridiculous number of options and a lot of brute strength.

Kylas
2010-05-14, 03:36 AM
This is where things get kinda hazy. If it comes down to it, the PWar can put 15 PP into a power (8th level power equivalent); the Ardent can only use 13 PP (7th level power equivalent). Not that either should be burning a whole lot of power points at a time like that, but it's possible.

Can you use the Custom Mantle ACF? If not, the Ardent has pretty slim pickings in its 3 mantles for powerful melee powers.

And even though the Fighter isn't all that great, feats are worth something. Especially to a character that has to both manifest and fight competently [and at the same time].

I wouldn't call either a bad build though. Compared to non-manifesting Fighter analogues, they're both going to have a ridiculous number of options and a lot of brute strength.

I'm going to be allowed minimal use of substitute mantle ACF (2-3) powers.
Also i'm confused by your example. How is a Psyhic Warrior that took 8 levels of Psychic Weapon Master able to manifest at 15 ML. Their ECL is 15 but wouldn't the PWM levels drop the characters ML to 11? Which makes the case for Ardent more...(pun).

Pluto
2010-05-14, 03:38 AM
Also i'm confused by your example. How is a Psyhic Warrior that took 8 levels of Psychic Weapon Master able to manifest at 15 ML. There ECL is 15 but wouldn't the PWM levels drop the characters ML to 11? Which makes the case for Ardent more...(pun).
Practiced Manifester isn't Ardent only.

Kylas
2010-05-14, 04:39 AM
Practiced Manifester isn't Ardent only.

O.O your absolutely right.

What powers do you suggest for the substitute mantle? I'm probably taking Conflict, Magic, and Freedom. Will definitely replace metaphysical weapon with something else since it appears twice and Magic mantle can essentially have anything.

Da Beast
2010-05-14, 06:21 AM
I only read the first couple of posts so sorry if this has already been mentioned, but if your going for a huge critical threat range consider replacing the falcion with kukris and two weapon fighting. Then pick up martial stance from Tome of Battle for the blood in the water stance. Blood in the water makes it so that anytime you score a crit you get +1 to attack and damage. This bonus stacks with itself infinitely and keeps building until you go for a minute without getting a critical. If half of your attacks threaten a crit, you should be able to build that bonus pretty fast.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-05-14, 09:00 AM
I understand the math but what exactly is allowing you to apply the bonus out of order. The way your saying it sounds like u gain the feat, it floats in the ether then you gain the class ability which garants you +2. Then you apply the +2 to your weapon then you apply improved crit to your weapon. Granted I like it that way but what im saying is wouldn't you have to apply the improved crit to a weapon the minute you gained it from either source. Also wouldn't you not be able to gain the +2 until you had improved crit already applied to your weapon of choice?

If what your saying works then I could take improved crit on a scythe, gain my class feature and add +2 making it 18-20 scythe then apply my improved crit feat making it 15-20 scythe? What was my improved crit doing before i applied my class feature?

Its not out of order. I don't know where the errata is. but wizards has said that you can choose the order in which feats classabiliities and other things like it apply.

The ability it self says that it adds +2 to the weapons threat range. It doesn't say that applies after imrpoved crit. seeing as it doesn't say that you have to apply it afterwards all it says is that you get it when you have improved crit. So you can choose which way to apply it.


And yes that is a great way to get a 15-20 crit range on a sythe. (if sythes can be crystal). Don't forget it would also be x5 do to the other class feature(well 5 times a day)

Arakune
2010-05-14, 09:05 AM
You can take the mantled ACF for psiwarriors too.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-14, 10:29 AM
You may want to ask the DM to take off the 'crystal weapon' requirement of the class, because if you ever lose your weapon (or use a new one, if, say, you've got a masterwork crystalline weapon and need to upgrade) you lose your class abilities. I'm not even sure if you can technically let it get out of your hand (so no putting it up at night, at the gala ball, or when you sleep).

Basically, unless you're a psiforged and are focusing on your slam, ask your DM how he plans on handling this.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-05-14, 10:35 AM
You may want to ask the DM to take off the 'crystal weapon' requirement of the class, because if you ever lose your weapon (or use a new one, if, say, you've got a masterwork crystalline weapon and need to upgrade) you lose your class abilities. I'm not even sure if you can technically let it get out of your hand (so no putting it up at night, at the gala ball, or when you sleep).

Basically, unless you're a psiforged and are focusing on your slam, ask your DM how he plans on handling this.

or have him replace the bonded weapon ability with one similar to kensi. that way you don't need to worry about replacing your weapon.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-14, 11:15 AM
I sorry i fail Englimish...(appologise for Spelling/Grammer Errors) Please don't correct my spelling or grammer eaither.This is horrible.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-05-14, 11:18 AM
This is horrible.

Why is it horrible?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-14, 11:23 AM
@RagnaroksChosen:
Why is it horrible?Because whoever that quote belongs to doesn't have respect enough for the rest of the boards to bother to even try to better his ability to communicate. It shows a lack of respect and common courtesy.

Thus, horrible.

Kylas
2010-05-14, 03:42 PM
Its not out of order. I don't know where the errata is. but wizards has said that you can choose the order in which feats classabiliities and other things like it apply.

The ability it self says that it adds +2 to the weapons threat range. It doesn't say that applies after imrpoved crit. seeing as it doesn't say that you have to apply it afterwards all it says is that you get it when you have improved crit. So you can choose which way to apply it.


And yes that is a great way to get a 15-20 crit range on a sythe. (if sythes can be crystal). Don't forget it would also be x5 do to the other class feature(well 5 times a day)
Well makes sense to me. And still astounding.
Yeah I'll have to speak to my Dm about that crystal weapon BS (I always consider fluff or setting specific requirements BS, not insulting the idea per se.) I see why it's needed but the risk for losing it is too great. Maybe we can say the bonding process makes the weapon crystalline.


Well if I go sanctified mind path my mantles would be Magic, Conflict, and my 3rd is Freedom or Time (maybe Chaos). I'd use the Substitute Power ACF to get rid of the Magic mantle's metaphysical weapon power, since it's repeated on the Conflict mantle. I'd replace it with vigor or force screen or if no Time mantle then anticipatory strike.
In terms of powers i'm not sure if psionic lion charge will be a redundant pick if I also have hustle. Hustle seems more versatile and practically emulates PLC power, though PLC does give a nice dmg boost when fully augmented especially on crits.
As for non Prestige class feats: Link power, leap attack, maybe one of the other leap attack feats that let you dump AC and expand knowledge(don't know what power to take, mebbe expansion?) Any other suggestions or substitutions?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-05-14, 03:51 PM
Well makes sense to me. And still astounding.
Yeah I'll have to speak to my Dm about that crystal weapon BS (I always consider fluff or setting specific requirements BS, not insulting the idea per se.) I see why it's needed but the risk for losing it is too great. Maybe we can say the bonding process makes the weapon crystalline.


Well if I go sanctified mind path my mantles would be Magic, Conflict, and my 3rd is Freedom or Time (maybe Chaos). I'd use the Substitute Power ACF to get rid of the Magic mantle's metaphysical weapon power, since it's repeated on the Conflict mantle. I'd replace it with vigor or force screen or if no Time mantle then anticipatory strike.
In terms of powers i'm not sure if psionic lion charge will be a redundant pick if I also have hustle. Hustle seems more versatile and practically emulates PLC power, though PLC does give a nice dmg boost when fully augmented especially on crits.
As for non Prestige class feats: Link power, leap attack, maybe one of the other leap attack feats that let you dump AC and expand knowledge(don't know what power to take, mebbe expansion?) Any other suggestions or substitutions?
if you can get a deap crystal weapon there not that bad.


While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, a psionic wielder of a deep crystal weapon can focus psionic power through it, increasing the damage that weapon deals. As a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the wielder can channel psionic power into a melee weapon or ranged weapon made of deep crystal. For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this power on their ammunition. All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss. However, they may be recovered and charged again.

Any weapon made of deep crystal costs 1,000 gp more than its noncrystal counterpart. Any item could potentially be made out of deep crystal. Because deep crystal armor is considered to be made out of metal, druids cannot wear it.

Deep crystal has 30 hit points per inch of thickness and a hardness of 10.

I'm a fan especialy if you go from ardent which tends to hve extra pp to toss around.


Hustle>psionic lions charge.... you can use hustle to powerr psionic meditation and get psionic weapon damage every round and still move(if need be)...


That 15-20 scythe is looking realy nice as well.

Kylas
2010-05-14, 04:19 PM
if you can get a deap crystal weapon there not that bad.



I'm a fan especialy if you go from ardent which tends to hve extra pp to toss around.


Hustle>psionic lions charge.... you can use hustle to powerr psionic meditation and get psionic weapon damage every round and still move(if need be)...


That 15-20 scythe is looking realy nice as well.
Yes to everything. The character is looking good buildwise but adding deep crystal weapon...Do you want my DM to kill me? It's not that a huge game changer but I will try to do as much as possible without DM tweaks. :) I may as well ask for mithril full plate. (not gonna happen)