How do you tell a "Supermunchin" "Backseat Driver" to stfu?

[Scarey Nerd]

We had a DM a while ago who was a real "Backseat Driver" DM, he made ridiculous plots that made no sense, made it difficult to decipher what the plot was, then had to make things up that made the game far too easy once we found logical ways around his railroad. After a while, we were sick of it, and made him step down from DMing and replaced him with a far superior one.

Now, he is a supermunchin player, determined to do the most outrageous things just to make himself IMBA (He's determined to make the DM use Draconomicon and become a Talon of Tiamut for example, when the rest of us are completely average PCs, and in now way IMBA). Now he's trying to force our DM to use MM2 and other such books because he's found creatures that would annoy other members of the party.

Any suggestions on how to tell him to stfu and accept that he's not DM anymore, without losing the friendship?

[The Rose Dragon]

OK, before I answer the question: what does IMBA mean?

[Scarey Nerd]

OK, before I answer the question: what does IMBA mean?

Basically, incredibly overpowered.

[The Rose Dragon]

The easiest method would be to stop inviting him to the games, but you should probably save that for the last.

You can also resort to explaining that it's not really fun for the rest of you to play in the style he wants to (assuming, of course, he is in the minority, and that minority does not include the DM), and the game should be fun for all participants involved. It is entirely possible that his idea of fun is the mechanical power he can get for his character, so try to have him explore other avenues of fun.

The one thing you shouldn't do is enter an arms race with him. While the DM will pretty much curb-stomp any player ever, it hardly results in a good time, and that's what almost all games are for - having a good time.

[Flickerdart]

Imbalanced, I would guess. Usually abbreviated "imba", and now all caps.

It's really up to the DM to regulate the campaign's power level.

[pinwiz]

I'd say talking to him is going to be the best bet. Maybe go all group intervention on him and have the entire group tell him that he's harrassing you (maybe not in those words). And if he doesn't want to stop harrassing you because of a GAME (awesome game, still a game), then I think you've got bigger problems than him being a bad player.

Talking is always the first thing i would try.

[lord_khaine]

I must say to start with i cant see any reason for why he should not be allowed to play a Talon of Tiamath, though it does sound like a evil prestice class, but as long as you allow evil chars there should not be any problem.

As for the rest, that should be left to the Gm, you might deside to remind him privatly that he is the final arbiter of the campaign, and that he should not let himself be pushed to include material that he isnt familiar with.

[WildPyre]

In this scenario I might actually be tempted to just go ahead and flatly tell them to "STFU" and highlight my point with a Rick James styled backhand.

[BobVosh]

Classical conditioning. Every time he does wrong squirt him with a water bottle.

Basically just ask him in whichever way you feel is the most appropriate to the individual. Unfortunately there is no sure way for this kind of thing.

[Panigg]

I really don't see the point in doing what this guy does. I mean sure, every one on these boards enjoys a little min/maxing but that is really not where the fun in dnd comes from.

Best way to deal with problems of these kinds is to just talk to the people and be as blunt an honest as possible. Works the best. Maybe someone gets hurt a little, but that will work itself out over time, which is better than boiling it up and letting it explode one day.

[Iamyourking]

There's nothing particularly overpowered about Talon of Tiamat; all he'd be getting is some weak 1/day breath weapons, half spellcasting, and a few mostly useless draconic abilities plus it requires a weak feat as a prerequisite. Plus it has 3/4 BAB and d8 HD so he'd be weakening himself to take it no matter whether or not he's a melee type or caster.

[Comet]

Talk to him. Tell him that his actions are making the game less fun for everyone else. Problem solved, hopefully.

If he's the kind of guy that refuses to listen to anyone, just slap him in the face. You don't need people like that in your group. (Don't actually hit him, violence is never acceptable)

Talking always helps. If it doesn't, the guy is just not worth the trouble.

Edit: Ninja'd. Multiple times.

[sonofzeal]

First, it should be the DM that handles it. And all it should require is a firm "no" and a stern look.

Second, if he's a much better optimizer than the rest of the group, throw the ToS ruleset (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124216) at him as a reasonable limitation.

Third, Talon of Tiamat is generally considered a horrible PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0). Don't worry about it.

[Greenish]

Any suggestions on how to tell him to stfu and accept that he's not DM anymore, without losing the friendship?Tell him to stfu, since he's no longer the DM. Friends don't let friends be jerks without calling them out.

[The Rose Dragon]

Tell him to stfu, since he's no longer the DM. Friends don't let friends be jerks without calling them out.

Friends also usually don't be jerks to each other to stop them from being jerks. :smalltongue:

[poisonoustea]

Ask the DM to give him a solo adventure.
1) He will have fun, 2) he might get killed because the DM can really go medieval on him, 3) he'll probably recognize that without the other characters he's useless, and 4) the other players will have some time to play in peace.

[nyarlathotep]

I for one would just let him play the talon of tiamat have everyone react accordingly to his service to an evil dragon god, and then let him see for himself how bad the class is.

[BloodyAngel]

Never underestimate the persuasive powers of a closed fist. :smallamused:

[Akal Saris]

Yeah...if you're all completely average PCs, the Talon of Tiamat should fit right in :smalltongue:

And I've actually played one too - I can attest to it being a very fun, very weak PrC. I loved the character, but I would have been stronger if I had just stayed straight bard.

As for what to do, have the DM tell the PC to knock it off. It's always worked for me - sometimes my PCs who also DM forget that it's my game, my rules. It's the DM's job to do that though, not yours - and it's possible that not everyone in the group sees things the way you do.

[WildPyre]

Never underestimate the persuasive powers of a closed fist. :smallamused:

Use the open palm first... it has more of an insulting feel and a nicer sound if you do it right.

[Noedig]

I don't think it the Talon of Tiamat the Op has the problem with. Rather it is the fact that the former DM of the group is attempting to force his will on the current one, thereby creating the difficulty.
This situation looks like one the current DM should handle. He will eventually get pissed and lay down the law. He may need a SUBTLE prod in this direction.:smallwink:

[WildPyre]

He will eventually get pissed and lay down the law. He may need a SUBTLE prod in this direction.:smallwink:

So you agree... an open handed pimp slap rather than a balled fisted punch?

[lord_khaine]

Never underestimate the persuasive powers of a closed fist.

I think newer overestimate the persuasive power of a closed fist is more precise.

Anyway, to get back on track then it doesnt sound like you have a problem atm.

[Noedig]

The open handed slap I believe is best. It lets the offender know who the alpha male/female is, similar to slapping a wayward puppy with a newspaper. It disgraces the offender appropriately, but it allows the offender keep what dignity they have.
It also makes a lovely noise.


A fist punch, either metaphorical or literal may have two adverse results.

While the delicious sound of crunching cartilage and bone (or soul) is pleasing to the ears and tactile sensations, it could so severely cow the offender that its spirit (or face) is crushed, or it may be viewed as a challenge for dominance, neither of which are acceptable.

[Brother Oni]

I think newer overestimate the persuasive power of a closed fist is more precise.

Never underestimate the power of a open palmstrike either. :smalltongue:

[Tavar]

First off, The Talon of Tiamat PRC, like more of the PRC's in that book, is rather weak. He's not going to become imbalanced by taking that class, unless everyone else is playing NPC classes.

Secondly, I'd suggest having the DM just firmly say, "hey, I'm the DM, I'm capable of making my own encounters."

[valadil]

Nthing talk to him. He's so used to being in charge of the game that he's forgotten what it's like to be a player.

But if he doesn't change his ways you may have to drop him. I've seen other people like this. They have such dominant personalities that they gravitate toward GMing. It's not a bad trait for a GM to have, but can be a terrible thing to behold in a PC. One guy that I can't play with anymore was such a backseat driver that he treated all the other PCs as NPCs. We just didn't matter. The game was about him. He ignored the GM more often than not too. He even insisted on doing math for everyone else. We'd roll our dice, but he'd add the numbers. It was painful.

[Nidogg]

can I just clarify why he wants to take Talon of the five headed freak?

[Zeful]

I think newer overestimate the persuasive power of a closed fist is more precise.

Anyway, to get back on track then it doesnt sound like you have a problem atm.

The player is telling the DM how to run the game in such a way to antagonize the other players.

This is not a problem how?

[Partysan]

Never underestimate the probability of breaking your fist when punching someone in the face.




Seriously, that happens all the time. Skullbone is stronger than knuckle, and getting teeth splinters into your hand makes for painful infections.

[Sarquion]

Use the open palm first... it has more of an insulting feel and a nicer sound if you do it right.

Too right mate

[Sarquion]

Hey, this is the DM of the group and even though i don't mind him becoming a PrC that'll make him worse it's just the constant trying to do somthing better then someone else or being somthing different, and he says he is true neutral but he is constantly trying to find away to kill a fellow party member without commiting an evil act by hammering me with creatures and rules from outside the core set which is what i'm trying to stick to to make a much funner simpler game for every one. The reason why he wants to kill the other guy is beacuse he allowed him to do all sorts of things when he was DM and regreted doing so because he had him ridiculously OP. Is there a way for me to kill his character without him knowing i did it completely on purpose? it could be a nice way to seek justice without snaping my nuckles and getting tooth splintered infections :smallbiggrin:

[imperialspectre]

Is there a way for me to kill his character without him knowing i did it completely on purpose?

While passive-aggressive DMing is unlikely to actually solve any of the problems in your group, allowing this n00b to take Talon of Tiamat and then having him face CR-appropriate encounters is probably a fine way of killing him off.

[lsfreak]

rules from outside the core set which is what i'm trying to stick to to make a much funner simpler game for every one.
Simpler, sure. Does everyone actually think Core-only is funner?

Either way, though, if you're sticking to Core, stick to Core. Tell him if it's not in the PHB, DMG, or MM1, he can't have it, flat-out. But then stick to those rules.


The reason why he wants to kill the other guy is beacuse he allowed him to do all sorts of things when he was DM and regreted doing so because he had him ridiculously OP.
My suggestion? Give him a firm warning not to bring things from other campaigns into this one. If someone did something in a different campaign, that has zero bearing on this one. If he doesn't play by those rules, the inevitables realize he's jumped worlds and they don't like that and drag him away.


Is there a way for me to kill his character without him knowing i did it completely on purpose? it could be a nice way to seek justice without snaping my nuckles and getting tooth splintered infections :smallbiggrin:
No. The DM should never, ever do that kind of thing. Killing him off because the dice say so is one thing. Setting up the dice ahead of time to say he dies is completely different (unless the DM discusses it with the player ahead of time and okays it).

It sounds like this person may be a permanent problem for you, though. If talking with him doesn't work, I'd consider telling him he's no longer welcome at your games.

[Scarey Nerd]

There is a so far-unmentioned problem: We have been using HIS models and his copies of the books for our sessions. We have all the books in PDF form, and enough models to get by, but...

[lsfreak]

There is a so far-unmentioned problem: We have been using HIS models and his copies of the books for our sessions. We have all the books in PDF form, and enough models to get by, but...

That does make it harder, depending on how well you know the rules. Still, if he's that big a problem, PDF's aren't bad to get by on provided you're only looking up a few things per game, and you hardly need models to play the game (we have models for the PC's, though they look nothing like the PC's, and for enemies use generic toy soldiers, spare dice, or paper squares with stick-figure sketches of monsters).

[Scarey Nerd]

We have models for the PC's, though they look nothing like the PC's, and for enemies use generic toy soldiers, spare dice, or paper squares with stick-figure sketches of monsters).

One of the most important NPCs in our campaign is represented by an unpainted Assault Marine :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

Hey, this is the DM of the group and even though i don't mind him becoming a PrC that'll make him worse it's just the constant trying to do somthing better then someone else or being somthing different, and he says he is true neutral but he is constantly trying to find away to kill a fellow party member without commiting an evil act by hammering me with creatures and rules from outside the core set which is what i'm trying to stick to to make a much funner simpler game for every one. The reason why he wants to kill the other guy is beacuse he allowed him to do all sorts of things when he was DM and regreted doing so because he had him ridiculously OP. Is there a way for me to kill his character without him knowing i did it completely on purpose? it could be a nice way to seek justice without snaping my nuckles and getting tooth splintered infections

What makes you so certain he is picking the rules to actualy get the other guy killed?

Also, if you apperently got 1 guy who is wildly OP from having played under the previous gm, shouldnt you take a closer look at him instead?

[Scarey Nerd]

What makes you so certain he is picking the rules to actualy get the other guy killed?

Also, if you apperently got 1 guy who is wildly OP from having played under the previous gm, shouldnt you take a closer look at him instead?

I'll field this one: The rules this guys picking are designed specifically to kill a member of our party, this second guy's PC has an irrational hatred of fish, much to the party's amusement, so the guy from the OP found the Ocean Strider to try and kill him.

As to the guy who was wildly imba, it was completely the old DM's fault, the imba guy asked to be a halfdragon and the old DM accepted, and let him have ridiculous weapons, then complained that he had all this, when the imba guy was mainly just testing the boundaries. I think.

[poisonoustea]

There is a so far-unmentioned problem: We have been using HIS models and his copies of the books for our sessions. We have all the books in PDF form, and enough models to get by, but...
AAAAAaaaahhh.... it's all clear now :smallamused:

Still, I think the better way to deal with this guy is a solo session. The DM can act a little more freely with him that way.

Still, as long as he's the owner of books and models, you have no chance of changing his mind. If you start using your own material, he'll probably realize he has lost his authority over you, and will probably leave the game without too much of a hassle.

[Greenish]

As to the guy who was wildly imba, it was completely the old DM's fault, the imba guy asked to be a halfdragon and the old DM accepted, and let him have ridiculous weapons, then complained that he had all this, when the imba guy was mainly just testing the boundaries. I think.Half-dragon is pretty weak.

[Sarquion]

Yeah we also nicknamed the model MacTavish :P but yeah. Currently i am talking to him trying to get him to see the game from where I am and here are a few of his replies and these are quotes from the msn window "your storyline is terrible" "you narcissistic pile of ****" "single minded prude". So i think now that it's just not worth keeping him in any longer. Even though he did introduce us to the game and we use his stuff 'n' all.

[Scarey Nerd]

I just wanna thank you guys for helping us with this problem, its always easier to sort stuff out when you talk it over :smallsmile:

[lsfreak]

If I come across as rude, I do not mean to. However, I think your(plural) definition of imbalanced differs widely from that of most of the forum. It's not a bad thing, but I'm guessing your wizards/sorcs mostly throw fireballs, your clerics throw heals, the fighter doesn't do much power attacking, and the rogue doesn't get sneak attack more than a couple attacks per encounter. If that's how you like to play, that's fine.

Just be aware that many of us on these forums are used to a vastly different game (melee dropping several hundred damage a round by mid-levels, wizards that kill/disable half of a fight with a single spell, etc), and thus have a vastly different idea of power levels of characters. Hence our saying stuff is fine while you call it imbalanced, because of different playstyles.

EDIT: Redundancy!

[Scarey Nerd]

If I come across as rude, I do not mean to. However, I think your(plural) definition of imbalanced differs widely from that of most of the forum. It's not a bad thing, but I'm guessing your wizards/sorcs mostly throw fireballs, your clerics throw heals, the fighter doesn't do much power attacking, and the rogue doesn't get sneak attack more than a couple attacks per encounter. If that's how you like to play, that's fine. Just be aware that many of us on these forums are used to a vastly different game (melee dropping several hundred damage a round by mid-levels, wizards that kill/disable half of a fight with a single spell, etc), and thus have a vastly different idea of imbalanced/overpowering/broken.

I understand, and did not mean to imply rudeness, we are only level 1 characters and have no arcane magic at all :smalltongue:

[lsfreak]

I understand, and did not mean to imply rudeness, we are only level 1 characters and have no arcane magic at all :smalltongue:

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to finally quote me as I was editing. I always manage to hit post and realize there's something I don't like about it; most of my posts are edited within a minute after posting them. :smalltongue:

And for level one - was that including the other campaign with a half-dragon? Because yes, that's imbalanced at low levels.

[Scarey Nerd]

And for level one - was that including the other campaign with a half-dragon? Because yes, that's imbalanced at low levels.

Yes, the old DM let a member of our party be a half-dragon from the word go.

[BloodyAngel]

Since the options of violent assault aren't viable... go instead for complete confusion of your foe.

Call him over and sit him down on your couch one day... then have a long talk about how you think he's being unfair and what you think he could do to correct the problem and make the game far, far more fun for both his players and himself. Be polite. Be kind. Be calm and as non-insulting as you can. But be... entirely nude. Tell him that these changes you have requested are very important to you, and that his refusal to comply to them will only inspire you to show up at his home, job, classes or what have you to keep talking until you can work this out. Fear and confusion should see things fixed for you. Or he'll call the police. One or the other.

[Greenish]

Be polite. Be kind. Be calm and as non-insulting as you can. But be... entirely nude.I can see where the confusion comes in.

[MountainKing]

Since the options of violent assault aren't viable... go instead for complete confusion of your foe.

Call him over and sit him down on your couch one day... then have a long talk about how you think he's being unfair and what you think he could do to correct the problem and make the game far, far more fun for both his players and himself. Be polite. Be kind. Be calm and as non-insulting as you can. But be... entirely nude. Tell him that these changes you have requested are very important to you, and that his refusal to comply to them will only inspire you to show up at his home, job, classes or what have you to keep talking until you can work this out. Fear and confusion should see things fixed for you. Or he'll call the police. One or the other.

I miss your shenanigans, BA. You always gave me the best advice. :smallwink:

Frankly, I'd like to throw in one more for "Just don't invite him". If he's legitimately that much of a disruption to everyone's fun time, then don't play the game with him.

[Areswargod139]

Since the options of violent assault aren't viable... go instead for complete confusion of your foe.

Call him over and sit him down on your couch one day... then have a long talk about how you think he's being unfair and what you think he could do to correct the problem and make the game far, far more fun for both his players and himself. Be polite. Be kind. Be calm and as non-insulting as you can. But be... entirely nude. Tell him that these changes you have requested are very important to you, and that his refusal to comply to them will only inspire you to show up at his home, job, classes or what have you to keep talking until you can work this out. Fear and confusion should see things fixed for you. Or he'll call the police. One or the other.

Well played. QFT.

[Ashram]

There is a so far-unmentioned problem: We have been using HIS models and his copies of the books for our sessions. We have all the books in PDF form, and enough models to get by, but...

If you have the books, but lack models, do what my group does and get the next-best thing: bottlecaps with the first letter of your character's name written on them. It's cheap, easy and obtaining bottlecaps (Drinking soda/beer/your poison of choice) is always enjoyable.

Also, I feel your pain. I have the same kind of guy in my group. The guy thinks that since he's been a DM before (A terrible one) and because he played 1st and 2nd Edition (More like his dad coddled him through it), he thinks he's entitled to be a backseat DM and consistently argue with whatever decision the current DM makes that he doesn't agree with. Some of the most maddening things he does is make a character whose only purpose is to stay alive (Basically, don't help the party, stay far in the back) and whenever he has to make a check of some sort, he rolls his dice and says, "Oh, that's enough" without actually giving a number (The only one allowed to say, "That's enough" is our level 10 rogue with Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue. :P)

[Yakk]

Imba refers to a 'character auditor' from WoW. Heh.

In any case, realize that you probably do suck at DMing. That's OK: you are new at it. Your storylines probably could do with improvement. And probably the level 1 half-dragon with lots of magic items is more than a bit overpowered.

[pinwiz]

If you've talked to him about being a jerk and he's still being a jerk, leave him. Find another house to play at, collect all the books you can, and get away, because he doesn't care about a collectively fun multiplayer game, he cares only about himself. Ditch the dude. If he doesn't care what you think he's not your friend. :smallsmile:

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah we also nicknamed the model MacTavish :P but yeah. Currently i am talking to him trying to get him to see the game from where I am and here are a few of his replies and these are quotes from the msn window "your storyline is terrible" "you narcissistic pile of ****" "single minded prude". So i think now that it's just not worth keeping him in any longer. Even though he did introduce us to the game and we use his stuff 'n' all.

So yeah, kick him to the curb. It's 'good' to see that you've accepted this as an option, far too often we get people asking for this sort of help but insisting that they can't kick the offender from the group because 'he's a friend', even when retaining him will destroy the group anyways.


Books = PDFs, easy and convenient.

Minis = props and substitutes are good, like space Marines or even bottlecaps. Personally, I like using folded paper cutouts, the way the Giant mentions in DCF he used to do - my stick figures aren't as good as his though.

Dice = a dime a dozen, and there's always online dice rollers.

[DragoonWraith]

Where can you get a dozen dimes for a dime? That seems like a great way to make a lot of money fast if you can scale it up...

[Kaun]

I have had similar problems and i have found simply telling them to stop being a **** head and hitting them on the nose with a rolled up news papper gets the job done every time.

I have yet to loose any friends over it.

You shouldn't have to be stupidly PC with your mates, your mates are the ones who should be able to let you know how it is with out the BS suger coating that is required at work or in public for fear of offending sombody.

[DabblerWizard]

On topic for the thread:

A good first step in dealing with any problem behavior is talking about it. While a bad thing to do is stay silent... If their behavior is bothering you, your annoyance with them is just going to fester and grow stronger, assuming their behavior doesn't stop spontaneously. This can lead to trouble.

The hope, is that, by bringing up (1) what bothers you, (2) and how it makes you feel, the annoying behavior will stop because the player doing it will make a conscious decision to alter behavior that bothers their friends.

If you determine that the player won't change their behavior, even if it's clear to them what the problem is, and why it's a problem, then all you can do, is change your own reaction to them, or pick the bad option and put up with it.

You could decide not to play with them, or just keep repeating that what they're doing is bothering you.

Kicking out a player, especially one that is a friend, is best done, if most or all the other players can agree it's what is best.



Side Note:


Classical conditioning. Every time he does wrong squirt him with a water bottle....

I realize you're joking, but just to nitpick, your suggestion is actually operant / Skinnerian conditioning.

You're trying to change (1) a voluntary behavior with (2) a punishment. Both of these criteria fall under operant conditioning, not classical conditioning, which generally effects involuntary behavior, like salivating or blinking, and isn't "understood" as having either negative or positive qualities.

[sambo.]

it's up to the group to have a chat with this "supermunchkin".

if that fails, it's up to the DM to stand firm on allowed/banned material.

if that fails, boot him.

[Quincunx]

Where can you get a dozen dimes for a dime? That seems like a great way to make a lot of money fast if you can scale it up...

The previously unknown Gods of Economics (Smith and Marx) smite you. Reflex for half of 'double your current HP'. :smalltongue:

[MountainKing]

The previously unknown Gods of Economics (Smith and Marx) smite you. Reflex for half of 'double your current HP'. :smalltongue:

Would that mean that a sufficiently high level rogue would only take half their HP in damage? Since rogues are some of the primary Appraisers in the game, wouldn't that make such a smite kind of... silly? :smalltongue:

[Kylarra]

Would that mean that a sufficiently high level rogue would only take half their HP in damage? Since rogues are some of the primary Appraisers in the game, wouldn't that make such a smite kind of... silly? :smalltongue:Nah, that'd mean that they'd drop to 0 on a fail and survive unscathed on a success. Assuming you refer to improved evasion, reflex for half of 2x hp, means that you take hp in damage on a fail (half of 2x) and 0 on a success. :smallbiggrin:

[Sarquion]

Anyway thanks guys for the posts but i think even though i have tried all other methods i'm gonna have to get him to leave the game and at the moment I'm not sure i even consider him as a friend. Also the other PC's agreed that he should.

But yeah thanks for all replies!