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Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-13, 03:51 PM
Sitiuation: An armorer traveller, riding a white horse, arrives in a small village. He claims to be a Paladin. And indeed, he manages to demonstrate many attributes of paladinhood - heals wounds by laying hand, cures diseases, unsummons and summons his mount, etc.

Complication: But some of the villagers are suspicious. Some say he's a clever impostor. How can they tell a real Paladin from, for example, an evil Cleric/Wizard impostor?

Task: Prove beyond reasonable doubt the visitor is indeed a member of a Paladin class in good standing.

Limitations: It's a small village. Powerful magical items are unavailable. High-level spells are unavailable. Characters with high ranks in Knowledge(whatever) and Spellcraft are unavailable. Whoever solves the task needing the least amount of obscure lore, magic items and spells, wins.

Flickerdart
2010-05-13, 03:52 PM
Get another Paladin and Smite Evil the first one.

Eurus
2010-05-13, 03:53 PM
Get them to fall. :smallamused:

EDIT: Well, technically that would prove without a doubt that he's a Paladin not in good standing. I suppose you could help him get an atonement or something after.

Boci
2010-05-13, 03:54 PM
Don't allow him to ready any spells, then see what he can do.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-13, 03:55 PM
For reference, "evil Cleric/Wizard" was just one of the options. We're trying to find the wider case of "any Impostor", not a narrow case of "evil Wizard/Cleric".

Second, how do you know the Smite worked? Ok, he takes some damage from the attack. You're not sure how much exactly.


Don't allow him to ready any spells, then see what he can do.
Ok, this could be a step in the right direction. Please describe how are you going about it?

senrath
2010-05-13, 03:58 PM
Well, a simple Detect Good spell would eliminate any chance of Evil people impersonating the guy. Throw in a Detect Law spell, and the only people who would slip by are Lawful Good.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-13, 04:00 PM
Well, a simple Detect Good spell would eliminate any chance of Evil people impersonating the guy. Throw in a Detect Law spell, and the only people who would slip by are Lawful Good.

Le sigh. Remember, the villagers are the ones limited to simple items and spells. The visitor is not. Misdirection? Or one of the many magical items that provide similar effects? Sure, why not, he might have it. Villagers are still suspicious eventhough he gives away a Good and Lawful aura.

Boci
2010-05-13, 04:01 PM
Ok, this could be a step in the right direction. Please describe how are you going about it?

Assuming the villagers have a basic knowledge of how clerics and wizards gain their spells for the day, ask him to do his stuff, then he goes off to bed, and ask him to do it again first thing next morning without any time to prepare. If they are a true apaldin, they will be use to how deceptive evil is and should be understanding of the villagers suspicion.

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:03 PM
Without letting him reprepare spells, ask him to heal everybody in town for one point of damage. To do this, you simply get a decently tough guy to smack everybody in town with a blunt object nonlethally. If he can do it more than *insert max number of cantrips a cleric can have* he's a paladin. If the wounds ever fully heal, instead of partially healing (minimum 2 damage from the smacks, healing *one* damage), then he's lying or incapable of controlling his own lay on hands.

EDIT: Of course, this relies on the villagers knowing what a paladin is, and knowing the basics of how vancian casting works. If they don't know, then why bother, this exercise is pointless because every reasonable solution is going to have an answer of "They're too stupid to understand your magickey concepts, so you fail. Try again until you guess the 'right' logic."

Ormagoden
2010-05-13, 04:04 PM
Get a dude you know is evil to sit in the same room as him...
Or ask him to do a line up with good folks and one bad guy.

/thread

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:05 PM
Get a dude you know is evil to sit in the same room as him...
Or ask him to do a line up with good folks and one bad guy.

/thread

This would do? All it would detect are if paladins are incredibly smite happy, and it requires somebody the villagers know is out and out evil. Plus detect evil is a cleric spell.

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 04:05 PM
There are some Paladin-only spells- asking him to prepare and cast one, without any gear, might do it.

But an Archivist could cast one of those too.

Boci
2010-05-13, 04:06 PM
Or ask him to do a line up with good folks and one bad guy.

/thread

You would have to do it multiple times, since detect evil isn't paladin only.


Without letting him reprepare spells, ask him to heal everybody in town for one point of damage. To do this, you simply get a decently tough guy to smack everybody in town with a blunt object nonlethally. If he can do it more than *insert max number of cantrips a cleric can have* he's a paladin. If the wounds ever fully heal, instead of partially healing (minimum 2 damage from the smacks, healing *one* damage), then he's lying or incapable of controlling his own lay on hands.

EDIT: Of course, this relies on the villagers knowing what a paladin is, and knowing the basics of how vancian casting works. If they don't know, then why bother, this exercise is pointless because every reasonable solution is going to have an answer of "They're too stupid to understand your magickey concepts, so you fail. Try again until you guess the 'right' logic."

This is a better thought out method than mine. It should work.

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:07 PM
There are some Paladin-only spells- asking him to prepare and cast one, without any gear, might do it.

But an Archivist could cast one of those too.

Lay on hands. You can divide it up. You can't divide up cantrips, and you don't get bonus cantrips. One point lay on hands prove that he's a paladin.

Well, you'd also need to strip search him for wands of cure minor wounds, and he might be another class with healing features, so you check the healing *and* confirm his spellcasting is limited to the subset of people that are either paladins or can't do lots of one point heals.

Of course, a paladin with no charisma would fail my test too, but that's MAD for you.

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 04:07 PM
On Detect Evil: Is it even visible to anyone who's not the caster?

They might see him saying "yup- that guy's evil" but they might not be able to confirm that Detect Evil was used.

Greenish
2010-05-13, 04:10 PM
Well, you'd also need to strip search him for wands of cure minor wounds, and he might be another class with healing features, so you check the healing *and* confirm his spellcasting is limited to the subset of people that are either paladins or can't do lots of one point heals.Factotums are always better.

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:11 PM
On Detect Evil: Is it even visible to anyone who's not the caster?

They might see him saying "yup- that guy's evil" but they might not be able to confirm that Detect Evil was used.

It relies on the assumption they have at least a few dozen identified as evil people, the imposter has no ranks at sense motive to get a read on people, and a ton of people for each evil guy so that the paladin can't get lucky.

Again, my method works at proving that he is either a paladin with decent charisma or an imposter/paladin with bad charisma, so it seems to be the best so far, if the villagers are somehow totally ignorant of how to stop him from preparing spells.


Factotums are always better.

I don't recall factotums having the ability to cast off the paladin spell list, so you can eliminate them. They are part of the subset I listed of "unlimited healing but not paladin compatible casting."

aivanther
2010-05-13, 04:11 PM
Throw him in a well with a lot of corpses, see if he catches a disease?

Put him in a maniacal situation where he can save a dying orphan or himself, but not both. If the orphan dies you got an imposter, if the guy dies, well problem solved anyway...

Lord_Gareth
2010-05-13, 04:12 PM
Alright, lemme think of a few ways to do this. A lot of it depends on the DM's interpretations of a few rules, but;

Smite Poke: If the village has a local paladin, have the two shake hands. At the moment of contact, the local paladin attempts to smite evil via skin contact (akin to, say, playing patty cake with a wight). Injury indicates evil, but does not necessarily validate the visitor's paladinhood.

The Vigil: This works best if the "visitor" cooperates. Seal him in a prison cell - the town's "drunk tank" should do, as long as it has at least a window with which to watch the prisoner - for as long as possible. Keep the visitor naked while imprisoned and instruct them - with many apologies - to keep themselves alive using their lay on hands ability. If spells or items are being used, simple time will eventually either A. kill them or B. run them out of spells, at which point any attempt to prepare spells may then be observed. If extremely paranoid, forbid the visitor from speaking during this period. After a period of approximately twelve days, any non-undead, non-construct being will have succumbed. As for those two events, there's;

Hospitality: Cast a cure spell (a local Adept can provide) and see what happens. This weeds out undead and constructs.

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:13 PM
Throw him in a well with a lot of corpses, see if he catches a disease?

Put him in a maniacal situation where he can save a dying orphan or himself, but not both. If the orphan dies you got an imposter, if the guy dies, well problem solved anyway...

Cure disease is a cleric spell. Fortitude saves are *also* class features of a lot of things, and cheap rings do the trick as well. As for the orphan situation... self preservation isn't evil, nor is killing yourself for the amusement of clearly evil villagers.

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:14 PM
Alright, lemme think of a few ways to do this. A lot of it depends on the DM's interpretations of a few rules, but;

Smite Poke: If the village has a local paladin, have the two shake hands. At the moment of contact, the local paladin attempts to smite evil via skin contact (akin to, say, playing patty cake with a wight). Injury indicates evil, but does not necessarily validate the visitor's paladinhood.

The Vigil: This works best if the "visitor" cooperates. Seal him in a prison cell - the town's "drunk tank" should do, as long as it has at least a window with which to watch the prisoner - for as long as possible. Keep the visitor naked while imprisoned and instruct them - with many apologies - to keep themselves alive using their lay on hands ability. If spells or items are being used, simple time will eventually either A. kill them or B. run them out of spells, at which point any attempt to prepare spells may then be observed. If extremely paranoid, forbid the visitor from speaking during this period. After a period of approximately twelve days, any non-undead, non-construct being will have succumbed. As for those two events, there's;

Hospitality: Cast a cure spell (a local Adept can provide) and see what happens. This weeds out undead and constructs.

Since when did sitting around doing nothing cause damage/lay on hands cure hunger?

Lord_Gareth
2010-05-13, 04:16 PM
Starvation and dehydration cause damage in D&D. Lay on hands cures damage. A paladin can, in fact, cure himself faster than he can die.

That's right folks. A paladin who never heals anyone else never needs to eat or drink.

Jair Barik
2010-05-13, 04:16 PM
What if the imposter starts resorting to enlarged cure minor wounds or some other meta magic. Still and or silent cure minor wounds?

Lord_Gareth
2010-05-13, 04:18 PM
What if the imposter starts resorting to enlarged cure minor wounds or some other meta magic. Still and or silent cure minor wounds?

They have to run out of spells eventually. Frankly, the only absolute garuntee is if that guy is willing to be kept in a cell for a year; the villagers can hold him as long as they feel like/he cooperates.

Lapak
2010-05-13, 04:25 PM
The easiest solution is quite simple.

If this is an evil impostor, he is presumably in the village for a reason. Present him with the opportunity to do whatever it is an evil impostor would want to do: show him the map to an artifact that the village elder has hidden in the fields, bring out the newborn Saviour of Prophecy, or whatever.

If he does the evil deed, well, he's not a paladin. If he doesn't, he's either a paladin or he might as well be because he's not doing the evil deed!

EDIT: The "it doesn't matter" portion also applies if there is nothing of consequence and the guy is passing through by sheer chance. If he acts like a Paladin for the time he's in the village, for all intents and purposes he is one to them.

Lord_Gareth
2010-05-13, 04:26 PM
Ah, but the challenge is to prove that he IS a paladin, not that he ISN'T evil. My above example does not rule out, for example, an awakened skeleton paladin. In fact, it may lead to one's death, but that's the best I can come up with, frankly.

Greenish
2010-05-13, 04:31 PM
Starvation and dehydration cause damage in D&D. Lay on hands cures damage. A paladin can, in fact, cure himself faster than he can die.

That's right folks. A paladin who never heals anyone else never needs to eat or drink.Elans look like human, and powerpoints are regained simply by sleeping. (Not to mention that an elan psion can keep himself alive over a year even without regaining power points.)

Lord_Gareth
2010-05-13, 04:34 PM
Elans look like human, and powerpoints are regained simply by sleeping. (Not to mention that an elan psion can keep himself alive over a year even without regaining power points.)

God damn it >.>

You know, one would have to resort to some seriously evil measures to pull this off. Have the visitor wound themselves daily in addition to starving. That should cut out the Elan problem, though the paladin may, at this point, have to open up a can of whoop-ass on these villagers. Or at least send in some clerics with the ability to cure paranoid schizophrenia.

Lapak
2010-05-13, 04:34 PM
Ah, but the challenge is to prove that he IS a paladin, not that he ISN'T evil. My above example does not rule out, for example, an awakened skeleton paladin. In fact, it may lead to one's death, but that's the best I can come up with, frankly.It doesn't have to be proven absolutely, merely 'beyond a reasonable doubt,' according to the OP. If he acts like a Paladin and displays Paladin-like powers and refrains from evil when presented with a reasonable temptation, well, he's probably a Paladin. Doubting it WOULD be unreasonable.

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 04:35 PM
Actually, you cannot heal damage from starvation or thirst by any means whatsoever until you've had a drink and a good meal.

Page 304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

To make sure that didn't become sensible, it's also impossible to starve to death. You merely keep taking nonlethal damage until the DM starts crying.

PId6
2010-05-13, 04:36 PM
Have the paladin tend to orphans with diseases for a while, getting very close contact with them, and make sure he doesn't get diseased. Then, give the paladin a mildly-poisoned bowl of food and tell him to feed it to the orphans. After he does, he falls because he used poison. Then, have the orphans clamber over him a bit more and lick him or something. If he's a paladin, then he should now catch disease. If he is not a paladin and the disease protection was coming from a spell or magic item, he should still be protected and thus would still not catch disease.

Alternatively, have him call his mount an hour before midnight. Once midnight comes around, attach a distinctive item (a colored rope, a letter, a drawing, etc) onto the mount. Afterward, the villagers stab the mount a bit and have him dismiss the mount and immediately call it again in the same round. If the distinctive mark is still there and the mount is now uninjured, then he is a paladin.

Greenish
2010-05-13, 04:36 PM
Have the visitor wound themselves daily in addition to starving. That should cut out the Elan problemElan psions can stab themselves daily. You'd have to make sure they actually do damage to themselves. :smallwink:

Ormagoden
2010-05-13, 04:37 PM
You would have to do it multiple times, since detect evil isn't paladin only.



This is a better thought out method than mine. It should work.

No, it'll work fine the first time.


<snip>
Detect Evil (Sp)

At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
<snip>


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
<snip>
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.
<snip>


Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

<snip>

The diffrence is clear.

Boci
2010-05-13, 04:38 PM
God damn it >.>

To be fair, you do narrow it down from "He's either a paladin or an imposter," to "He's eiother a paladin, or an imposer of some strange alian race"

Milskidasith
2010-05-13, 04:38 PM
No, it'll work fine the first time.


<snip>
Detect Evil (Sp)

At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
<snip>


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
<snip>
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.
<snip>


Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

<snip>

The diffrence is clear.

Silent and stilled spell? Not hard to do.

As for the poison thing: Detect poison is a paladin spell, I think, and I'm *fairly sure* that even if he lost his paladin abilities, he'd still have a high enough natural fortitude save he wouldn't actually get diseased anytime soon.

hamishspence
2010-05-13, 04:40 PM
Does it say that when it's activated, the emanation is visible to all persons?

If not- there's no way to tell when he says "I detect that guy as evil" that he's not faking.

Greenish
2010-05-13, 04:40 PM
Silent and stilled spell? Not hard to doBut how to get rid of that pesky Divine Focus requirement?
[Edit]:
If not- there's no way to tell when he says "I detect that guy as evil" that he's not faking.Technically, it would be Bluff opposed by Sense Motive, so with arbitrarily high Sense Motive check you could tell.

Boci
2010-05-13, 04:42 PM
No, it'll work fine the first time.


<snip>
Detect Evil (Sp)

At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
<snip>


Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
<snip>
A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally.
<snip>


Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 min./ level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

<snip>

The diffrence is clear.

Depends how much the villagers know the difference. The wizard could just use everyday talk as his verbal components and innocent hand gestures for sonomatic ones. How many of the villagers will know the difference between spell like and spells? Or be trained in spellcraft.

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 04:42 PM
To be fair, you do narrow it down from "He's either a paladin or an imposter," to "He's eiother a paladin, or an imposer of some strange alian race"

Well, no, she's determined whether the character is an elan or not. For a paladin test, you'd have to give him diseased food every day for a few years, and that that still wouldn't catch an item.

It's worth remembering that nobody should be able to tell the difference between a paladin and a not-paladin. The rules are actually pretty specific that class, level, and hit dice don't have any meaning in the game world.

Nobody would ever believe that xyzzy was a holy knight who receives visions from Heironeous unless they know xyzzy has done something awesome.

Eurus
2010-05-13, 04:42 PM
Or? Instead of mutilating them and depriving them of sleep over the course of days, you can just trick them into temporarily falling. Doesn't even require anything all that unethical, all you have to do is poison their blade or something while they're not watching it and watch the fireworks the next time they hit something (like, say, a wild boar). Make sure they don't know that they broke their code, so an imposter wouldn't know to pretend to lose his powers. It's an unintentional crime, so one little atonement will get it back; it's about as close to harmless as you can get, really.

Lord_Gareth
2010-05-13, 04:43 PM
Well, no, he's determined whether the character is an elan or not. For a paladin test, you'd have to give him diseased food every day for a few years. And that still wouldn't work if he was a cleric.

Eh, it might; if you can observe him 24/7, you can see (and prevent, since imposters are bad juju) any attempts to prepare spells. Lay on hands just has a 24 hour time limit - spell preparation is an eight hour obvious-as-hell affair. When they run out of spells and then start choking on disease, you know there's a problem.

Boci
2010-05-13, 04:44 PM
Well, no, she's determined whether the character is an elan or not. For a paladin test, you'd have to give him diseased food every day for a few years. And that still wouldn't work if he was a cleric.

How would a non elan non paladin heal themselves in the conditions described?

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 04:52 PM
Eh, it might; if you can observe him 24/7, you can see (and prevent, since imposters are bad juju) any attempts to prepare spells. Lay on hands just has a 24 hour time limit - spell preparation is an eight hour obvious-as-hell affair. When they run out of spells and then start choking on disease, you know there's a problem.

Well, no, because firstly, a character with no levels of paladin - i.e, a cleric or a favoured soul, could still easily end up being what the people of the setting think of as a paladin, and secondly, praying is to be expected either way - they are, after all, both intensely religious.


How would a non elan non paladin heal themselves in the conditions described?

Same way as a paladin : not being able to because you can't heal damage from starvation or thirst.


Also, lay on hands doesn't mean paladin in the context of the world itself - to the people in the game world, a 'paladin' is perfectly free to be a lawful good fighter. Paladins just fight evil, follow some arbitrary code, and claim to receive weird visions from the gods.

Touchy
2010-05-13, 04:56 PM
Well, no, because you cannot heal damage from starvation or thirst. It cannot be done. Pun-Pun himself cannot walk in and pronounce you healthy. Pun-Pun, Cain, and Lt. Mary Sue all working together couldn't do it unless they made you an omelette first.

And lay on hands doesn't mean paladin in the context of the world itself - to the people in the game world, a 'paladin' is perfectly free to be a lawful good fighter. Paladins just fight evil, follow some arbitrary code, and claim to receive weird visions from the gods.



Same way as a paladin : not being able to because you can't heal damage from starvation or thirst.
Pun-Pun actually could, he would simply make a new ability to adapt to that rule. Read: Allow him to completely ignore.

Boci
2010-05-13, 04:57 PM
Same way as a paladin : not being able to because you can't heal damage from starvation or thirst.

I thought you took subdual damage that can be healed by lay on hands.

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 04:58 PM
I thought you took subdual damage that can be healed by lay on hands. Did I miss something earlier in the thread?

No, you take subdual damage that cannot be recovered by any means until you've eaten. Hence the comment about Pun-Pun, Mary Sue, and Cain all working together not being able to do it unless they whip up an omelette or two first.


Pun-Pun actually could, he would simply make a new ability to adapt to that rule.

Strictly speaking, Manipulate Form can be used to give a character arbitrary capabilities, but AFAIA, it's considered poor form (excuse the pun... and that one) to go outside of published wotc material.

Greenish
2010-05-13, 05:01 PM
Well, no, because firstly, a character with no levels of paladin - i.e, a cleric or a favoured soul, could still easily end up being what the people of the setting think of as a paladin, and secondly, praying is to be expected either way - they are, after all, both intensely religious.There's a point there: classes are metagame constructs (in most settings).

Boci
2010-05-13, 05:01 PM
No, you take subdual damage that cannot be recovered by any means until you've eaten.

Right you are.

LibraryOgre
2010-05-13, 05:04 PM
Nihilist/pragmatist approach: Why does it matter? His actions are good, at least to all non-magical detection. Unless he's advocating a questionable course action, "by their works you shall know them."

Fax Celestis
2010-05-13, 05:14 PM
Actually, you cannot heal damage from starvation or thirst by any means whatsoever until you've had a drink and a good meal.

Page 304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

To make sure that didn't become sensible, it's also impossible to starve to death. You merely keep taking nonlethal damage until the DM starts crying.

This is directly because some designer forgot the "if you have nonlethal > your max HP, you start taking lethal instead" damage clause. Using that ruling makes starvation and fistfights (sensibly) dangerous.

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 05:19 PM
This is directly because some designer forgot the "if you have nonlethal > your max HP, you start taking lethal instead" damage clause. Using that ruling makes starvation and fistfights (sensibly) dangerous.

I assume that's the case, but it's survived for a surprising length of time.

Of course, in the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, prestige classes started imposing XP penalties, so... yeah. Not omitting things may not be a strongpoint of the D&D dev team.

mucat
2010-05-13, 05:23 PM
A guy walks up to you in real life, claims to be a doctor. How do you make sure he really is?

Check his references. A real paladin should be able to tell you the order he trained under, and they should be able to verify his story. He should also have left a trail of good deeds in his wake, with lots of grateful people ready to vouch for him.

This does assume that: (1) You have time to do the necessary checks, and (2) your concern is that he is imitating a paladin in general, rather than disguising himself as a specific paladin. If he has stolen the identity of a real paladin, then all his references could check out perfectly, while he is still not who he claims to be.

Coidzor
2010-05-13, 05:27 PM
This does assume that: (1) You have time to do the necessary checks, and (2) your concern is that he is imitating a paladin in general, rather than disguising himself as a specific paladin. If he has stolen the identity of a real paladin, then all his references could check out perfectly, while he is still not who he claims to be.

That ignores the possibility/reality of orderless Paladins (something overlooked by the fact that everyone seems to assume that Paladins need a patron god empowering them when there is no such requirement in da rules) to train under as well as the guy not being clever enough to have started up the imitation of a paladin awhile back in some place where there's enough people passing through that he wouldn't have caused any kind of stir.


Well, no, because firstly, a character with no levels of paladin - i.e, a cleric or a favoured soul, could still easily end up being what the people of the setting think of as a paladin, and secondly, praying is to be expected either way - they are, after all, both intensely religious.

Also, lay on hands doesn't mean paladin in the context of the world itself - to the people in the game world, a 'paladin' is perfectly free to be a lawful good fighter. Paladins just fight evil, follow some arbitrary code, and claim to receive weird visions from the gods.

Irrelevant. We have to set aside such considerations of "call a rabbit a beaver" based on the vagaries of a setting in order to entertain the thought experiment at all.

And not all paladins claim to receive visions from deities. There are several which have nothing whatsoever to do with deities, being as how their power source is actually cosmic goodness and lawfulness. So presumably they draw their power directly from the plane of wossname.


The rules are actually pretty specific that class, level, and hit dice don't have any meaning in the game world.

HD do have a meaning in the game world. They determine the value of your soul in the fiendish markets.

And where do you get this "visions" requirement of being a Paladin from?



Well, one layer of the test would be to have him heal his limit of lay on hands to the villagers, then make him take a vigil all night (or simply disrupt his sleep so he doesn't get the full hours of wakefulness, I'm sure a chicken emergency or angry bull getting loose would suffice to disrupt his sleep so that it doesn't count), and then make him do it again at first light or after breakfast. If he can't heal the same number of people, then one knows that something is up.

You don't even need to keep him from being unable to meditate and prepare spells as long as you break the sleep cycle, as even psionics* require the rest period to be unbroken. You still should keep him from getting a chance to prepare spells though.

Giving him a place in town where he can't use a bedroll or other magic item to reduce the number of hours he needs to rest would also be ideal.

That narrows him down to Paladin above level 2 (and who cares about a single level 1 Paladin? :smalltongue:) or Class with innate healing ability that is controllable and not dependent upon getting a good night's sleep.

Now just find some way of eliminating other classes with innate healing abilities. I imagine that's actually the hardest part.

Rationing of other forms of healing, by say, only using half of a cleric's cantrips the first day and the other half the second day or by using two different classes in a multiclass character's healing repertoire requires either additional days or discernment by those administering the test.

Paladin-look-alikes: Some kind of moral test needs to be devised, I imagine to distinguish between a cleric or favored soul who is on the upper end of the alignment tableau and an actual malevolent imposter. Or indeed, between a malevolent figure and a shyster.

*Psionics: If something had both psionics and another method of healing, that could possibly be a lynchpin in this plan, though I'm relatively sure that would only necessitate more days of being unable to reprepare spells/regain power points to eliminate the chances of, say, an elan psion/cleric multiclass making do with one class's allotment of healing and then the other's.Daily Power Point Acquisition

To regain used daily power points, a psionic character must have a clear mind. To clear his mind, he must first sleep for 8 hours. The character does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, manifesting powers, skill use, conversation, or any other demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of rest immediately prior to regaining lost power points. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before regaining power points.

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 05:32 PM
Well, one layer of the test would be to have him heal his limit of lay on hands to the villagers, then make him take a vigil all night (or simply disrupt his sleep so he doesn't get the full hours of wakefulness, I'm sure a chicken emergency or angry bull getting loose would suffice to disrupt his sleep so that it doesn't count), and then make him do it again at first light or after breakfast. If he can't heal the same number of people, then one knows that something is up.

Divine spellcasters don't need rest to prepare spells. They just need to pray, and not doing so might constitute grounds for falling (your character's deity and church leaders may as well be the very definition of "legitimate authority").


And where do you get this "visions" requirement of being a Paladin from?

It's mentioned a few times in the fluff that paladins receive messages from deities in their sleep.

Coidzor
2010-05-13, 05:59 PM
^: Any specific places come to mind?


Divine spellcasters don't need rest to prepare spells. They just need to pray, and not doing so might constitute grounds for falling (your character's deity and church leaders may as well be the very definition of "legitimate authority").

Then that simply necessitates the villagers to think up an appropriate form of legitimate interruption. Or have small interruptions which none-the-less void the ritual for purposes of spell replenishment.

Or is enough of a blue strawberry cheesewhizz as to be dismissed as a construct explicitly created in order to roadblock the villagers into having no possible recourse.

Adventurers are able to delay their spell preparation when in the dungeon, so there have to be circumstances that the villagers can use in this situation.

The only question this really leaves is whether missing the time of day requires the divine caster to make it up at the earliest opportunity or if they're high and dry until the time rolls around again the next day.

Greenish
2010-05-13, 06:05 PM
^: Any specific places come to mind?



Then that simply necessitates the villagers to think up an appropriate form of legitimate interruption. Or have small interruptions which none-the-less void the ritual for purposes of spell replenishment.

Or is enough of a blue strawberry cheesewhizz as to be dismissed as a construct explicitly created in order to roadblock the villagers into having no possible recourse.

Adventurers are able to delay their spell preparation when in the dungeon, so there have to be circumstances that the villagers can use in this situation.

The only question this really leaves is whether missing the time of day requires the divine caster to make it up at the earliest opportunity or if they're high and dry until the time rolls around again the next day.Obviously, this all hinges on paladin being level 2 or higher with charisma over 12. Neither of those are requirements for being a paladin.

lesser_minion
2010-05-13, 06:09 PM
Or is enough of a blue strawberry cheesewhizz as to be dismissed as a construct explicitly created in order to roadblock the villagers into having no possible recourse.

I'm not the OP (and nobody's trolling here). As far as I can tell, he doesn't want to stop anyone finding a way out of this, he just wants to know if there's an answer.

My point is that there is no experiment you can really perform without going into distinctions that make no sense in the game world to ensure that the guy you're dealing with is a member of the paladin class.

Personally, my solution would be to eschew science, and go by whether or not I recognise the guy, his crest, heraldry, or something else about him. A paladin of any note in the local area would likely be someone I might recognise that way.

If not, the villagers would probably send a messenger off to the nearest city to ask a few questions.

Also, you can tell the answer to your last question by reading the rules (for future reference, yes, they can make it up at the first opportunity).

Nero24200
2010-05-13, 06:47 PM
You could just throw fear effects at him. Even if the person has a high will save they're likely to fail eventually. The downside being that if the imposter is actually an undead or some such in disguise, it still won't work.

Frozen_Feet
2010-05-13, 07:21 PM
If he's bluffing, there's, you know, a Bluff check there somewhere. Get the whole village to aid another on a Sense Motive check. That way you get to know at least whether he's lying. If he honestly thinks he's a paladin even if he's not, things get complicated.

Mikeavelli
2010-05-13, 08:06 PM
Zone of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm) is not a high level spell.

Ask him to enter the zone and voluntarily fail his will save. Ask him if he's a Paladin. Waffling indicates lying.

For those towns who only have a low level wizard\sorceror, Detect thoughts (http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/spells/Detect_Thoughts.html) will work. Again, if it's a Paladin, he'll voluntarily fail his will save and let you scan his thoughts.

Discern lies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLies.htm) is a slightly higher level spell that may be outside the bounds of this thought exercise, but this is exactly what the spell was intended to be used for.

Lastly, you can cast detect good on him.

He might not be a Paladin, but if he's good-aligned and claiming to be a Paladin, his reasons for doing so are probably good enough for me to let him off the hook.

quiet1mi
2010-05-13, 09:35 PM
Without meta-gaming... just keep both eyes on him and assign him a minder...

krossbow
2010-05-13, 10:57 PM
1. Get one baby.


2. Tell him that unless he Throws down his weapons and surrenders, you'll eat the baby.


3. Profit!

Frozen_Feet
2010-05-14, 04:27 AM
If he's bluffing, there's, you know, a Bluff check there somewhere. Get the whole village to aid another on a Sense Motive check. That way you get to know at least whether he's lying. If he honestly thinks he's a paladin even if he's not, things get complicated.

It just occurred to me that if the potential impostor spends enough time in the village, the inhabitants can take 10 or 20. Which, mechanically, represents slow accumulation and confirmation or debunking of suspicions quite well in community life.


Without meta-gaming... just keep both eyes on him and assign him a minder...

Really, if I was a DM in the situation, interrogation, keeping tabs on him, and double-checking his story would all boil down to a couple of Gather Information, Sense Motive and Knowledge checks.

Also, Appraise can be used to evaluate personal power in a round about way. Appraise can be used to tell something's worth; slaves have listed prices depending on HD. Logically, anyone with Appraise could get a general feel on the level of the paladin (ie., how fit he is and how much he'd be worth as a slave :smalltongue:), which in turn can be used to deduce how complicated tricks he can use to befuddle the villagers, or how famous the person might be. If the appraise result is way high, the villagers can send a courier to some neighboring village to see if someone famous has been around there as well, and follow the leads from there.

So, yeah. I'm fairly sure mundane skill checks would be enough to determine who the person really is. Given enough time, take 20 and aid another bonuses of the villagers would become huge. Of course, this method is anything but quick; if the paladin is just passing through, the villagers will be left in the dark unless they use some magical gimmicks to speed up the process.

Also, mechanically, all those attempts to tempt the paladin by, say, dangling a baby infront of him and threatening to eat it, would be the domain of Bluff checks*, and a high-level paladin could see through them with Sense Motive. Vice Versa goes too: to really interprete the actions of the paladin in that situation, the villagers would have to pit their Sense Motive against him. it's just a round-about way of doing all those skill checks mentioned.

* if the villagers really are just that evil, then they'd likely be more concerned about the character being a real paladin. Plus a real paladin would notice their vileness and probably shake the dusts of the place faster than you can say "fall for associating with evil characters". Or smite the damn hovel.:smalltongue:

Tyrandar
2010-05-14, 05:34 AM
Like this!

BOO!

If he gets scared, not a paladin. :smallcool:

(Seriously, I don't think it's doable. There are a handful of ways to out people masquerading as paladins, but no way to actively prove one. Except, of course, divine intervention, and how do you know that's not an illusion, and... gah, making myself paranoid just going on like that. :smalltongue:)

pasko77
2010-05-14, 06:17 AM
If you have an "evil" object (like Xykon's crown) and a mundane identical object, you can just ask them which one is evil. Shuffle them and redo it, say, 100 times, and you ruled out casters.
I assume it is quite simple to see if someone is "concentrating" to keep the spell active, so it shouldn't be an option.

Johel
2010-05-14, 06:18 AM
TEST 1
You need :

29 regular villagers
1 definitely evil villager
1 adept


Take thirty men, one of whom is a known evil person, the others being usually nice people. Handcuffed, blindfolded and gaged. Then stuffed in a house.

Now, tell the paladin that a gang of bandits has been arrested. However, some of them must be hostage and there's no way to sort that out for sure. Since there's doubt about the Paladin's quality, he is to assess their soul one after another, immediately.

The "suspects" are to be brought out of the house one after another. The true evil guy will come out 24th.
A spellcaster impostor would have had to prepare only "Detect Evil" to find out the true color of everyone. And even so, he would run out of spells long before.


If the true evil guy isn't even among the "evil doers" that the "paladin" detected, you got your proof and can start the fire...
If the "paladin" finds more than one "evil doers", you gotta be suspicious. Lock up the "evil doers". Lock up the "paladin". Have the local adept cast Detect Evil on each evil doers. If one of them registers has "not evil", the paladin is a fake.

Frozen_Feet
2010-05-14, 06:24 AM
I have a feeling people are trying to be too clever here. Most of the proposed tests are so questionable any character with Lawful Good alignment, paladin or not, would probably high-tail out of the village in no-time.

Really, I doubt the OP meant for the secondary goal to be scaring the stranger out at any cost. If he is a genuine paladin, one would think the villagers would actually like to have him around once the testing is done.:smallbiggrin:

Johel
2010-05-14, 06:47 AM
I have a feeling people are trying to be too clever here. Most of the proposed tests are so questionable any character with Lawful Good alignment, paladin or not, would probably high-tail out of the village in no-time.

Really, I doubt the OP meant for the secondary goal to be scaring the stranger out at any cost. If he is a genuine paladin, one would think the villagers would actually like to have him around once the testing is done.:smallbiggrin:

My test doesn't involve starving him to death or having him kill anyone.
We just need him to pass a serie of fast "Evil-or-NotEvil" judgement and sort out whether he was right or wrong after. Worst situation, he's locked for the night because we disagree with some of the judgements.

If he wants to get away without completing the test, well... that somehow prevented us to be tricked, right ? :smallbiggrin:

Frozen_Feet
2010-05-14, 08:13 AM
I dunno, the whole concept of "one known evil villager" begs a whole slew of questions. Getting that bastard to co-operate could be a puzzle to rival the impostor thing. :smallcool:

I mean, who are the most likely Evil people? The anti-social drunkard farmer who beats his wife and kids and will pull out his trusty shotgun crossbow if a mob approaches him? The slimy used car horse dealer who probably fled town when he heard a paladin's visiting, or hired some mooks to guard himself? A petty thief locked up in jail and waiting for his hanging? Besides, I doubt even the neutral folks would willingly line up to have their alignments scanned.

Sillycomic
2010-05-14, 04:28 PM
I think the person who came to the village has already proven he’s a paladin beyond a reasonable doubt.

1. He has healed wounds by laying on hands, cured diseases, and summoned his own mount. When you said those things I assume that he did these in front of people in the village who can be witnesses. These are all paladin things that good standing paladins do.

2. It’s a small village. You said there are no powerful magical items available, and no characters with decent skills or magic. So… this is basically a small poor village filled with a few commoners. The bad news is, they can’t really tell whether the paladin is a paladin or not… but the good news is they don’t have to.

3. An evil cleric or wizard COULD do all of these things, if he were so inclined to do so. But why? Why would a cleric, wizard, bard, artificer, or chameleon character want to trick a small village with no money or magical items whatsoever? That’s like hiring Dr. House to treat a paper cut. Sure, you could do it… but for goodness sake, why? It makes no sense.

The only reason a high enough level character would want to trick an entire village that he is a very nice and considerate paladin without any ethical problems is that they have something he wants. Money? A cool artifact? Magical items? A map to the fountain of knowledge/youth/catgirls/lewts? You have already told us this village has nothing.

So, let’s say I were a reasonably intelligent commoner who raised billy goats. One day in my small village this nice paladin type person rides into town and says he’s a paladin. He then heals the Potting boys who fell down a ravine the other day. He cures the widow Rachel who has been bed ridden for a couple of months with a nasty disease. He also helps Grandpa Fredericko across the street with his groceries.

I’m supposed to look at this guy and suspect he’s an evil wizard?

Murdim
2010-05-14, 06:05 PM
TEST 1
You need :

29 regular villagers
1 definitely evil villager
1 adept


Take thirty men, one of whom is a known evil person, the others being usually nice people. Handcuffed, blindfolded and gaged. Then stuffed in a house.

Now, tell the paladin that a gang of bandits has been arrested. However, some of them must be hostage and there's no way to sort that out for sure. Since there's doubt about the Paladin's quality, he is to assess their soul one after another, immediately.

The "suspects" are to be brought out of the house one after another. The true evil guy will come out 24th.
A spellcaster impostor would have had to prepare only "Detect Evil" to find out the true color of everyone. And even so, he would run out of spells long before.


If the true evil guy isn't even among the "evil doers" that the "paladin" detected, you got your proof and can start the fire...
If the "paladin" finds more than one "evil doers", you gotta be suspicious. Lock up the "evil doers". Lock up the "paladin". Have the local adept cast Detect Evil on each evil doers. If one of them registers has "not evil", the paladin is a fake.

I had about the same idea, except... simpler.

You're the village's local Adept - 1st level, mid-level, it doesn't really matter.

You know that among the many blessings granted to the paladins by the gods, one of the most emblematic is their unique capacity to distinguish the wicked from the innocent, an ability they share with almost nobody, almost nothing but the Celestial beings themselves. Unlike most spellcasters, unlike yourself, unlike even the most powerful high priests, paladins can cast Detect Evil at will, without resorting to spellcasting and its inherent limitations.

It's a small village, and you're one of the most important people in the surroundings, so you have the occasion to know pretty much everyone on a personal basis. And since you're able to cast Detect Evil yourself a few times a day, you're able to know exactly who's evil and who's not among the villagers. The alleged paladin, on the other hand, is newly arrived and doesn't really know anyone.

Again, as an Adept, you're an eminent person in the hamlet, and a spiritual leader with that. If someone can convince the stranger to prove his paladinhood without looking disrespectful and gross, it's you. While walking around the village, ask him to use his evil-detecting powers on a bystander or two. Or three. Or fifty. See if he suddenly loses his infaillible accuracy after two or three uses.

In the end, you just need a 1st-level Adept with some basic knowledge about both the people he lives with and one of the paladin's most recogniseable class feature, and nobody else to take an active, willing part to the initiative.

Kylarra
2010-05-14, 06:11 PM
For the detect evil people, remember that it lasts for 10min/level so they aren't likely to run out with the proposed methods.

Murdim
2010-05-14, 06:23 PM
For the detect evil people, remember that it lasts for 10min/level so they aren't likely to run out with the proposed methods.
Maintaining the Detect evil spell requires concentration, which requires spending a standard action per round. To be sure he has to cast the SLA again each time you ask him to detect a villager's alignment, you just need to force him to walk fast, i.e to perform two move actions a round.

Kylarra
2010-05-14, 06:27 PM
Maintaining the Detect evil spell requires concentration, which requires spending a standard action per round. To be sure he has to cast the SLA again each time you ask him to detect a villager's alignment, you just need to force him to walk fast, i.e to perform two move actions a round.So you're going to spend your time forcing them to sprint around town? I mean I guess it's plausible, but seems like if they are an evil masquerading as a paladin you don't want to tip your hand to your suspicions.

I guess another question is which side you're proving it from, because in a vacuum, all you have to do is make him fall which is trivially easy.

pffh
2010-05-14, 06:40 PM
Step one: Eat a puppy - now you are evil
Step two: Accidentally drop your coin purse in front of the paladin and have him hand it to you (if he's a lawful good paladin he will) - now he has helped an evil person -> he fell
Step 3: Ask him to perform his paladin thingamajiggy again if he can't he's a paladin, if he can he's an impostor.
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit (or help him atone thus bringing yourself back to neutral)

Tyrandar
2010-05-14, 07:09 PM
Step one: Eat a puppy - now you are evil
Step two: Accidentally drop your coin purse in front of the paladin and have him hand it to you (if he's a lawful good paladin he will) - now he has helped an evil person -> he fell
Step 3: Ask him to perform his paladin thingamajiggy again if he can't he's a paladin, if he can he's an impostor.
Step 4: ????
Step 5: Profit (or help him atone thus bringing yourself back to neutral)

That's a pretty broad interpretation of "associate," and he only falls if he knows you're evil. :smallconfused:

Also, if he's lawful stupid, he might just smite you and be done with it.

EDIT: Gah, sarcasm detector is broken.