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Lans
2010-05-13, 10:22 PM
The three feats are nice for their level, this is an expansion on the chain for higher level of play.

Master Binder
Prerequisites: Practiced Binder
Benefit: When you bind a vestige using the Bind Vestige
feat, you gain the full benefit of the Bind.

Greater Binding
You can bind a wider range of vestiges.
Prerequisite: Bind Vestige,Bind Vestige, Improved, Character level 12
Benefit: When you bind a vestige using the Bind Vestige
feat, you do so as though you were a 10th-level binder.
Thus, you have access to vestiges up to 5th level, though
you still can bind only one at a time and gain only one
power from it.

Master Binding
Prerequisite: Bind Vestige,Bind Vestige, Improved, Greater Binding, Character level 15
Benefit:hen you bind a vestige using the Bind Vestige
feat, you do so as though you were a binder of your character level.
Thus, you have access to vestiges that a Binder of your level would be capable of binding, though you still can bind only one at a time and gain only one
power from it.

Thoughts? I will put the two powers from Master and Greater Binding later.
Or add Master Binder as a prereq to the other feats

DragoonWraith
2010-05-14, 09:21 PM
Master is too much, anyone can essentially become a Binder//whatever gestalt by spending four feats. Four feats is expensive, but spending four feats for 15+ class levels is ridiculous.

Overall, I feel like these take too much of the point away from being a Binder, when you could just replicate it with feats.

Lans
2010-05-15, 01:38 PM
You missunderstood the feat. You would need 6 feats in order to fully replicate a Bind. The feat as it stands now only gives access to one of the binds abilities. In order to do the fullbind you would need Master Binder
and Practiced Binder.


It isn't comparable to a gestalt, you only ever get one bind, and the soonest access to a complete bind is at, err 3rd. I'll add Character Level 9 to Master Binder, so it will be at level 9. On vestiges that are 2 levels down from what the binder can do. It only becomes equivalent at 15th, by then the Binder will be able to bind 4 vestiges at a time.

So for 6 feats it would be about 1/4th of a Binder.
For 6 feats a you can be 1/3 of a fighter.

demidracolich
2010-05-15, 01:41 PM
Actually, they can only bind 3 at 15, 4 is at 20. However, that is still more than what the feats give you so its fine.

Lans
2010-05-23, 07:14 AM
Actually, they can only bind 3 at 15, 4 is at 20. However, that is still more than what the feats give you so its fine.

Still works.

Does anybody else have any input?

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 10:31 AM
Still feel like it allows too much Binding for non-Binders.

FlamingKobold
2010-05-23, 11:07 AM
I like these, just for the reason that it is an almost gestalt. With stuff like this, my mystic fighter/barbarian actually makes sense. I think these are great for customization. If someone really want to spend 6 feats on something, they're probably seriously lacking in their supposed area of expertise (minus casters).

DragoonWraith
2010-05-23, 11:47 AM
I suppose that's true. It just seems... I dunno, out of place. You can't spend six feats to get that much from any other system, ya know? Incarnum comes closest, but you'd still be a far cry from a real meldshaper with 6 feats...

Demons_eye
2010-05-23, 12:39 PM
I agree with Dragoon here, they give to much without taking away much. IF you gain the benefits of a class for 6 feats its ridicules in my eyes. Why not just make a swift ambusher like feat for binders instead?

Ferrin
2010-05-23, 05:06 PM
I'd say this is a feat chain actualy worth taking. It's not to powerfull for 6(!) feats if you ask me, but it's flavorful and unique.

Though on second thought, you should somehow limit the number of available vestiges.

Tibbaerrohwen
2010-05-23, 05:17 PM
I would like to say that it is too powerful; you end up giving the equivalent of a Binder to a non-binding class. It has it's uses, of course, and is very effective.
It's difficult to say that it is too powerful, however; who honestly takes a full feat tree of 6 feats? When I play a character, events change, circumstances alter my intended build for the character. There should be a reward for following through with the full tree.
I can appreciate where the feat tree is going. I can't say I agree with it entirely, but neither do I believe that it is over the top.

Ferrin
2010-05-23, 05:38 PM
Ok, you should 100% sure limit the number of vestiges you can bind with full binder level to 1, or maybe 2. It really would give to much versatility, even for 6 feats.

Lans
2010-05-26, 11:32 PM
Still feel like it allows too much Binding for non-Binders.
Its less than what a Binder would have, at the level when it gets comparable level Binds, a binder should be able to do it once per day as a swift action, likely was counting as 2 levels higher, has a faster recharge and a higher DC.

Or the Binder spent 6 feats into charging and is charging just as good as the fighter.


I suppose that's true. It just seems... I dunno, out of place. You can't spend six feats to get that much from any other system, ya know? Incarnum comes closest, but you'd still be a far cry from a real meldshaper with 6 feats...
You can be better than the Soulborn :smallbiggrin:


I agree with Dragoon here, they give to much without taking away much. IF you gain the benefits of a class for 6 feats its ridicules in my eyes. Why not just make a swift ambusher like feat for binders instead?
Its only 1/3 of the classes main ability at a base level. If class spends 6 feats it would have additional advantages on it.

Could you explain the swift ambusher feat?


Ok, you should 100% sure limit the number of vestiges you can bind with full binder level to 1, or maybe 2. It really would give to much versatility, even for 6 feats.
1 and 2 would be much too low, you can already get limited access to third level binds at level 1. Limited access that brings a wide swath of abilities to the table. I don't see the problem with expanding it with level.

I'm going off of precedent. The precedent that comes from the existence of the first 3 feats, and the precedent of feats that give access to other classes abilities such as spell casting, and Incarnum and the existence of the Fighter class.

I might change it to 7 feats to increase the cost, and to delay full access to bindings. Opportunity cost wise, it would mean that a paladin would be unable to pick up Battle casting, the druid would not have access to Natural Spell, Barbarian wouldn't get PA, charging would be quite worse. No Rob. Gambit, and many other options that many classes would like to take.

My other idea is to have a chosen bind for the capstone, so its only have access to one bind that is on par with what the binder can do, but would be free to have more flexibility of lower level binds.

My last idea is to keep the summoning vestige off the list of choices.