Swift Hunter

[Azernak0]

I've been wanting to try out an Archer build for a while and have come across Swift Hunter Handbook. It seems decent enough but I am having problems stating a character out if they are starting at low level and advancing. It seems that before Greater Manyshot, the Swift Hunter is doomed to do mediocre damage.

I would just build a Human Fighter Volley Archer (works out to slightly more damage per round) but I am petrified by DR. Archers tend to do damage by hitting 5+ times a round for like 1d8+6. Of course, I imagine that a Swift Hunter fighting something that has Fortification amounts to the same thing but I am always wanting to try out different builds

So, any advice on what a Swift Hunter should look like assuming most books are open and a 40 point buy?

[Darklord Xavez]

I've been wanting to try out an Archer build for a while and have come across Swift Hunter Handbook. It seems decent enough but I am having problems stating a character out if they are starting at low level and advancing. It seems that before Greater Manyshot, the Swift Hunter is doomed to do mediocre damage.

I would just build a Human Fighter Volley Archer (works out to slightly more damage per round) but I am petrified by DR. Archers tend to do damage by hitting 5+ times a round for like 1d8+6. Of course, I imagine that a Swift Hunter fighting something that has Fortification amounts to the same thing but I am always wanting to try out different builds

So, any advice on what a Swift Hunter should look like assuming most books are open and a 40 point buy?

EWP: Composite Greatbow. (from complete warrior)
-Xavez

[Greenish]

Don't go for manyshot, go for full attacks + travel devotion (or mount if your DM is willing to ignore the stupid errata).

Swift Hunters get to ignore Fortification on their favoured enemies, so take FA: Arcanists and then couple of others you think you'll be meeting often.

I would go for Scout3/Cleric1 (cloistered variant optional)/Mystic Ranger 14/xx2 for a simple build. Mystic Ranger is from Dragon Mag (336), and sadly delays combat style feats and favoured enemy, but grants stronger spellcasting. Cleric domains Travel (traded for devotion) and Magic.

If your campaign doesn't take place in cramped places, mounted archery is worth thinking about.

[Edit]:
EWP: Composite Greatbow. (from complete warrior)
-XavezArchery is rather feat heavy, so burning a feat for one more average damage isn't worth it.

[The Cat Goddess]

Travel Devotion rocks for Scout builds.

Though if you can afford it, and talk your DM into it, The Training Dummy of the Master (Arms & Equipment Manual) turns your 5' step into a 10' step, permenantly... and then you can rent it to the others in your party! :smallbiggrin:

[Azernak0]

Mounted Archery isn't an option as the DM is obsessed with dungeons and even moving 10 to fire at the enemy might be a problem, so I guess it will have to be without it.

Feats are my current problem. I am concerned about not using Greater Manyshot and only using Travel Devotion because I am not sure if I will run out of charges throughout the day, though if it means not having to use Greater Manyshot with it's horrendous penalties that's just groovy. I really do want to include Woodland Archer because of the amount of arrows being launched. Maybe something like:

Scout 3 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Ranger x

H: Travel Devotion
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
6 Bonus: Rapid Shot
6: Swift Hunter
9: Woodland Archer

[lsfreak]

Travel Devotion comes from Cloistered Cleric - they get Knowledge + 2 other domains, and you turn Travel domain into Travel Devotion feat instead of getting access to the domain. You do the same with Knowledge Devotion. Thus the level in cleric nets you two 'free' feats.

It kind of depends on how many encounters your DM likes to throw at you during a day as to how long Travel Devotion lasts. Provided you don't have a Cha penalty, you have enough to last the listed 4 encounters per adventuring day. Plus at low levels, you'll only have 1-2 attacks a round (once you get Rapid Shot), so you can save Travel Devotion and just move as normal then. At higher levels, grab a Nightstick for an extra 4 turns and that should last you all day.

[Ruinix]

if u going to take skirmish forget ranger for heavy "martial" archer and go for 1 coisted cleric/rest scout.

imp. precise shot is better than woodland archer, and WA is only good if u dont gona take imp. PS.

[Mongoose87]

if u going to take skirmish forget ranger for heavy "martial" archer and go for 1 coisted cleric/rest scout.

imp. precise shot is better than woodland archer, and WA is only good if u dont gona take imp. PS.

Why forget Ranger when you can use Swift Hunter to get better BaB and Skirmish through it?

[Azernak0]

imp. precise shot is better than woodland archer, and WA is only good if u dont gona take imp. PS.

Improved Precise Shot is good, but it's not the cover part that I am looking to blow through. Woodland Archer adds a +4 to hit for each miss you get that round.


Travel Devotion comes from Cloistered Cleric - they get Knowledge + 2 other domains, and you turn Travel domain into Travel Devotion feat instead of getting access to the domain. You do the same with Knowledge Devotion. Thus the level in cleric nets you two 'free' feats.


How does that work? Giving up Knowledge in all skills for Knowledge devotion seems to be counter-intuitive.

[lsfreak]

if u going to take skirmish forget ranger for heavy "martial" archer and go for 1 coisted cleric/rest scout.

imp. precise shot is better than woodland archer, and WA is only good if u dont gona take imp. PS.

We take much more kindly to grammatically-correct English than chatspeak here, just as an fyi.

Swift Hunter gets full skirmish, full favored enemy, and near-full ranger casting. Scout19/Cleric1 is in no way better.

And ImpPrecise versus WA - I've heard this before and just don't get it. Get both. WA is for the +4 attack on your arrows as much as ignoring the concealment. Not to mention you can get WA 6 levels earlier than IPS.

[Telonius]

Travel Devotion rocks for Scout builds.

Though if you can afford it, and talk your DM into it, The Training Dummy of the Master (Arms & Equipment Manual) turns your 5' step into a 10' step, permenantly... and then you can rent it to the others in your party! :smallbiggrin:

IIRC you need a level in Monk in order to make use of it.

[Azernak0]

IIRC you need a level in Monk in order to make use of it.

Aye, and it is crazy pricey.

[Gnaeus]

IIRC you need a level in Monk in order to make use of it.

Or a +19 UMD. Achievable by mid levels depending on exact build and whether some rules are in play.

[Mongoose87]

Aye, and it is crazy pricey.

Yeah, it costs you a level in Monk!

[Greenish]

Yeah, it costs you a level in Monk!Can't you get that level-drained away afterwards?

[gallagher]

Travel Devotion rocks for Scout builds.

Though if you can afford it, and talk your DM into it, The Training Dummy of the Master (Arms & Equipment Manual) turns your 5' step into a 10' step, permenantly... and then you can rent it to the others in your party! :smallbiggrin:what page is that on?

[Gametime]

As long as you're using 3.0 material, OA allows a 10 foot step to be made after a DC 40 Tumble check. Much higher skill pump than the UMD needed to use the training dummy, but depending on house rules it may be a skill you need to pump anyway (if your DM uses scaling DCs to avoid opportunity attacks). At any rate, it doesn't rely on a somewhat shady rules interpretation.

[Barlen]

Something I noticed while stating a swift hunter, if your not careful with your BAB you will have to put off Imp Precise shot about 3 levels (you have to take it at 15 instead of 12). Basically it has a requirement of BAB +11, so if you loose more than 1 point of BAB (you loose 1 at scout 1, scout 5 or cleric 1) you don't have the requirement by the time your level 12 feat comes along and your next feat is at level 15.

I was looking at going scout 5/Ranger 15 (actually scout 1/ranger1/scout 4/ranger14) to pick up evasion (scout 5) early but decided it wasn't worth waiting on Imp precise shot (eliminates all but total cover and total concealment, yea thats important). If you pick up a level of cleric you loose the point of BAB. Maybe the benefit actually is worth it, but think about it carefully. Granted travel devotion (moving your speed as a swift action) might well be worth it for a scout and it does activate skirmish.

Also, since skirmish activates by moving from where YOU were standing (not distance to the target) in a dungeon you can drop back 10' (or 20' if you take Imp Skirmish for +2d6 and +2AC) and fire and then move forward the next round (in the targets face if necessary) and fire. Its worth it for the damage.

[The Cat Goddess]

IIRC you need a level in Monk in order to make use of it.

Sparring Dummy of the Master, page 137 of Arms & Equipment Manual... and yeah, you need a level of Monk to use it. :smallannoyed:

Still, not so bad for a Monk dip or a Tash-Monk.

As for it costing 30,000gp... really it only costs 15,000gp at most, since you can sell it back. Or, if there's more than one person in the party with a Monk level, you split the costs.


Or a +19 UMD. Achievable by mid levels depending on exact build and whether some rules are in play.

I assume you're saying +19 UMD so it's auto-success, since you have to practice with it for 4 weeks?

Since you won't be in a stressful situation, you can just "take 10"... reducing the needed UMD amount. :smallwink:

[Eldariel]

I would just build a Human Fighter Volley Archer (works out to slightly more damage per round) but I am petrified by DR. Archers tend to do damage by hitting 5+ times a round for like 1d8+6. Of course, I imagine that a Swift Hunter fighting something that has Fortification amounts to the same thing but I am always wanting to try out different builds

Volley Archer can pack most DR types very easily; Slashing is hard, but Bludgeoning is covered by RoTW's Blunt Arrows and Piercing is obvious. And arrows of each metal are very cheap compared to weapons of each metal. And Magic Weapon...you'll have one soon enough. Besides, volley archers love high Str which means you'll have the versatility of going to melee if you really can't use your bow efficiently; Power Attack is all you need, especially with Warblade basis. And if you build an Eternal Blade Archer, you can automatically bypass all DR on level 12 forever.


So, any advice on what a Swift Hunter should look like assuming most books are open and a 40 point buy?

Frankly, your damage will be fine on early levels. The earlier you pick Travel Devotion, the earlier you can make Rapid Shot Skirmish attacks. This would probably work out best with Scout 1/Ranger 2/Cloistered Cleric 1 getting you full attacks on level 4, and 1d8+1d6+Str before that (not bad on low levels, y'know). With that high point buy, you could easily afford the stats, and even some Charisma.

Only 1 rank in each Knowledge used for creature identification (Arcane/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/The Planes/Religion) would get you +1/+1 from switching Cloistered Cleric's Knowledge-domain for Knowledge Devotion; this'll make up for the lost BAB. And by fractionals, you still remain only one point behind up until Scout 3.

But frankly, with that high stats I'd just suggest Fire Elf Eternal Blade Archer; it really makes the most out of those various stat bonuses you run with and would get slightly earlier access to full Rapid Shot benefits and would pack more versatility.


The Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.00) may contain something of benefit too, though it's still unfinished. May be worth checking the Traditional Archery section for useful feats and such though.

[Murdim]

Swift Hunter gets full skirmish, full favored enemy, and near-full ranger casting. Scout19/Cleric1 is in no way better.
Not to mention the possibility to ignore precision damage immunity against your favored enemies. Swift Hunters are much, much more polyvalent than normal Scouts, who are completely screwed against Undead and Constructs.

[lsfreak]

Something I noticed while stating a swift hunter, if your not careful with your BAB you will have to put off Imp Precise shot about 3 levels (you have to take it at 15 instead of 12). Basically it has a requirement of BAB +11, so if you loose more than 1 point of BAB (you loose 1 at scout 1, scout 5 or cleric 1) you don't have the requirement by the time your level 12 feat comes along and your next feat is at level 15.


Travel Devotion is definitely worth it, as it gets rid of the heavy penalty on Greater Manyshot (plus lets you use haste as such), and Woodland Archer helps a bit with delaying IPS off to 15th level.

EDIT:
Since you won't be in a stressful situation, you can just "take 10"... reducing the needed UMD amount.
Don't think you can take 10 on UMD since there's a penalty for failing.


The Archery Handbook may contain something of benefit too, though it's still unfinished. May be worth checking the Traditional Archery section for useful feats and such though.
Yes, and we're anxiously awaiting its completion :smalltongue:

[The Cat Goddess]

The other advantage of getting a level of Cleric is... Wand use.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shards of Granite also tell DR to go take a hike... and doesn't require levels in a worthless PrC

[NEO|Phyte]

Shards of Granite also tell DR to go take a hike... and doesn't require levels in a worthless PrC

It does, however, require melee weapons. Which archery doesn't use, funnily enough.

[T.G. Oskar]

Yeah, it costs you a level in Monk!

Actually, I wouldn't say that a level in Monk with a Swift Hunter build is really bad. Two levels won't hurt, either (they get Evasion just as fast as Rogues). However, it implies a bit of feat abuse AND going full Wis, but if you do, you get slightly better benefits.

If you go Zen Archery or Intuitive Strike, you can use your Wisdom instead of your Dexterity for attack. With that, you can have a higher Will saving throw, higher saves overall (+2 just for a dip), Wis to AC, Improved Unarmed Strike and slightly better damage for when you're locked in melee (or your bow is somehow destroyed or unusable), bonus spells for Ranger and increased AC, and Evasion pretty early (though Evasion is also acquired pretty early for Scout). With Ascetic Hunter, you can also add your levels in Ranger to the DC of Stunning Fist attempts (which, with your high Wis means they'll be stunned quite badly) and to damage with unarmed strikes, which means you'll be equally dangerous in melee and ranged combat so as long as you move.

The biggest benefit of this, although it can be acquired through Scout as well, is Spell Deflection. Since you'll have two or three different ways to gain Evasion, you can replace any of them with this ACF, which is great since it grants you a much better defense against spells, while eventually letting you keep Evasion.

While having a level of Monk makes you capable of getting Training Dummy of the Master, you need better abilities to use. Belt of Battle and ways to get Hustle/Lesser Celerity are a must; there's also a pair of nifty boots on a web enhancement (Cyran Gliding Boots) that grant you a "10 feet step" 3/day, and also increase your movement.

Another thing: regardless of the path, Imp. Skirmish is a must, specially if you can mix it with Belt of Battle, Hustle or Lesser Celerity. More damage for the cost of one feat is excellent.

Of course, you need to measure well which feats to get, since just Swift Hunter isn't enough. Travel Devotion is nice and you can use it constantly with turn undead attempts; it's certainly cost-effective for your needs (though a dip in Wizard [Conjurer] for Abrupt Jaunt is even more hilarious, since you can use it to qualify for movement and you teleport instead). Regardless of whether you really face them or not, the ACF that allows you to substitute one of your Favored Enemies for all arcanists (it's in Complete Mage); that way, you can apply your Skirmish to arcanists even if they somehow become immune to critical hits and skirmishes, and gain extra static damage which is always a plus. Manyshot is not a bad ability, actually: however, it is better if you can get it through the Ranger's combat styles, as you can move and attack and make sure you can deal reasonable damage: if possible, Greater Manyshot (gained VERY late, but still useful) makes your Skirmish damage apply to all shots, so you get a single, but really dangerous, attack as a standard action. Of course, you want as many chances to move, so make sure you get Freedom of Movement one way or another; remaining still is your doom, since you can't deal much damage. If you get a surplus of abilities, getting Martial Stance (Child of Shadows) is awesome at early levels, and even at late levels (and if you have Spell Deflection, it is quite lethal)

As for other items: Ring of Entropic Deflection is brutal, even more if you have something like Boots of Striding and Springing since you get a 50% miss chance against ranged attack (including spells) when you move (which will be ALWAYS); since this behaves like Entropic Shield, it means it's not concealment, and thus not even Blindsight or True Seeing can bypass it (only Pierce Magical Concealment and something that bypasses Entropic Shield). This one, combined with Spell Deflection spells certain doom to characters that use ranged touch attacks against you (no pun intended). Skirmisher Boots are good as well, since you can get more Skirmish dice for your buck, and you can get an extra attack if you need it); remember you can combine effects of magic items, as explained in the Magic Item Compendium. Any bow with the Force enhancement is a MUST: it's the best way to bypass most restrictions. Blindfold of True Darkness is another must, since you'll need to be within the 30 ft. range for your Skirmish attacks to succeed.

[Eldariel]

Shards of Granite also tell DR to go take a hike... and doesn't require levels in a worthless PrC

Eternal Blade is pretty much the opposite of "worthless", to be honest. It's not for Swift Hunter, but it shines in any kind of a volley archer.

[Tavar]

For slashing, you can use the Serpent's tongue arrows from races of the wild. Bludgeoning is actually harder, as they deal Non-lethal damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Eternal Blade is pretty much the opposite of "worthless", to be honest. It's not for Swift Hunter, but it shines in any kind of a volley archer.

Err.... and why? Ignore DR, adds Knowledge checks... couple times per day get Int to attack and damage... against a single opponent type...

meh, I'd rather go straight Warblade and not get my maneuvers known and active lists hurt...

Shards of Granite replace the most useful portion of this class

[WoodenSword]

I love this:

Thri-Kreen is smexy in this, along with your wizard buddy's casting of Garillon's Blessing and Permanency.

EWP: Hand Xbow Wield on on each of your 8 arms, then greater manyshot with each. OWIE!!!!

[Greenish]

Something I noticed while stating a swift hunter, if your not careful with your BAB you will have to put off Imp Precise shot about 3 levels (you have to take it at 15 instead of 12). Basically it has a requirement of BAB +11, so if you loose more than 1 point of BAB (you loose 1 at scout 1, scout 5 or cleric 1) you don't have the requirement by the time your level 12 feat comes along and your next feat is at level 15.I'm not sure you'd want to pick Improved Precise Shot with your actual feats when you can get it with Ranger 11 Combat Style Mastery. Depends on the campaign and how long you think it'll go.

The other advantage of getting a level of Cleric is... Wand use.Yeah, that is especially nice with Magic domain, the granted power of which allows you to use all wands with wizard spells without UMD check. Wraithstrike om nom nom.

[T.G. Oskar]

Err.... and why? Ignore DR, adds Knowledge checks... couple times per day get Int to attack and damage... against a single opponent type...

meh, I'd rather go straight Warblade and not get my maneuvers known and active lists hurt...

Shards of Granite replace the most useful portion of this class

Straight Warblade doesn't get Devoted Spirit, which makes Eternal Blade awesome to make a chain-tripper/Thicket of Blades character (even if an Elf, but if you're a Grey Elf it's even more hilarious).

Plus, are you claiming that Island on Time on top of Time Stands Still is horrible?

You only lose access to Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon maneuvers, but you gain an awesome new set of maneuvers in Devoted Spirit. Plus, you get the same exact amount of maneuvers you'd get if you went full Warblade: between Warblade 11 - 20, you get 5 extra maneuvers. Eternal Blade grants you five extra maneuvers. You actually get one extra readied maneuver. And you get one more stance, so you actually gain instead of losing...except for losing access to Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw, which in any case means you would have gone with Bloodclaw Master for TC or Deepstone Sentinel for SD; even then, you can get Martial Study for those maneuvers you desperately want, and you retain Iron Heart (which is nice), Diamond Mind (so that means you still get TSS), White Raven (and you already got WRT, which is not bad), and you gain Devoted Spirit (with Strike of Righteous Vitality for healing, Greater Divine Surge for a single super-attack, and the stances and charges depending on alignment).

Not to mention you can lower the enemies' AC. And who ever takes the Int bonus to attack and defense? You always tend to choose the extra maneuver from Diamond Mind or Devoted Spirit, anyways...

[Eldariel]

Err.... and why? Ignore DR, adds Knowledge checks... couple times per day get Int to attack and damage... against a single opponent type...

Let's see now:
1) Ignores DR as a Swift Action N times ever against anything. It's pretty darn useful against anything with DR/Epic in significant quantities or just any type of DR that's otherwise impossible to penetrate. And it can be combined with flurry type attacks very efficiently, which tend to deal more damage than single attacks (Time Stands Still down, everything from Leading the Charge Pouncing Charge/Bounding Assault+Pounce to Avalanche of Blades and such).
2) Int to Attacks and Damage can easily be another +5/+5 or more come midlevels. That's basically at least +15 damage with melee weapons (thanks to Power Attack), which is quite solid for a non-action, and quite the damage increase when using attack number increasers with penalties in ranged combat (Rapid Shot, Whirling Frenzy, Arrow Storm all grant a number of attacks with associated penalties; to get back to "2s hit", you want some bonuses on the counterbalance). Yes, it's only against one type for one encounter, but honestly, how many different types of dangerous foes do you usually encounter in a single encounter? Generally it's 1-2 and others can handle the ones you don't have bonuses against. It's basically flat +Int/+Int. And it lasts until the end of encounter; it's as good as Mighty Rage offensively once you have 20 Int (and e.g. Fire Elf has no trouble reaching 20 Int).
3) You can instead gain access to any Diamond Mind or Devoted Spirit maneuver. Guess what: Those two are the best schools in the book. Need an extra turn at the end of initiative order? Learn Moment of Alacrity. Need a hard standard action strike? X Nightmare Blade. And if that's not enough, pick up Disrupting Blow to try and buy a new turn. Need a movement attack? Bounding Assault. Maybe some flurry? Try Avalanche of Blades. Or perhaps you aren't prepared to deal with some save? Diamond Defense or the appropriate Concentration maneuver. And Devoted Spirit means you have On Demand healing as necessary, few great Charges and so on; a single level of Crusader before Eternal Blade means you'll have access to the whole damn school. As it's impossible to have enough maneuvers to pick all the good ones from both, especially if you don't skimp on the other two (awesome) schools, this increases your versatility insanely, to an almost Swordsage-like degree.
4) It has at least as good schools as Warblade. It has Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and White Raven, the three best Warblade schools missing out only on Tiger Claw of the notables, and adds the Crusader exclusive Devoted Spirit to the deal. That's a pretty damn nice and varied selection of the best maneuvers in the book.
5) It gains new readied maneuvers at a faster rate than a Warblade. Indeed, Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 ends up with 8 readied maneuvers as opposed to the normal 7, and gains them at a much more expedite rate.
6) Eternal Knowledge means you can fuel Knowledge Devotion to a decent rate without any skill points, and focus on the one Knowledge given by the feat (most common enemy) while still maintaining decent (+2/+3 average in the end) bonuses against the rest.
7) Defensive Insight means you can switch to defensive combat as necessary. If you happen to have Combat Expertise, you can when needed generate an insane AC boost, and still hit easily and consistently, if for little damage (Power Attack helps though) with e.g. Emerald Razor. And Tactical Insight is a free bonus; don't knock on it.
8) Best. Capstone. Ever. Once per encounter turn as an immediate action, that doesn't even consume your immediate action as it'll consume the one from the turn you take thus meaning you can take another one immediately afterwards. Stance Mastery is very good, but this just blows it out of the water.
9) Armored Uncanny Dodge doesn't hurt at all if you're interested in a heavy armor Warblade. Uncanny Dodge has many great uses in addition to the obvious, like keeping Dodge-bonuses to AC outside combat (enabling Total Defense to gain vast AC bonuses before your first turn) and, of course, fighting blind efficiently (when necessary against various gaze attack creatures, or because you have a weather effect happy caster abound).


It's not strictly better than a Warblade, but it's pretty damn potent and I'd say easily the best non-caster PrC in the book (Ruby Knight Vindicator obviously blows it out of the water by virtue of being a divine caster), being a great addition to Crusader or Warblade. Indeed, especially Warblade trades away little, but also gets a ton in return, and Crusader gets awesome school access increase in Iron Heart and Diamond Mind (not to mention, more readied maneuvers which are even better for Crusaders than others, since it increases the chances of having the exact maneuver you want round 1, and allows you a great deal of versatility from your vast Maneuvers Known pool).

[Curmudgeon]

As long as you're using 3.0 material, OA allows a 10 foot step to be made after a DC 40 Tumble check. That skill use is still current in 3.5 games without any special allowance. But it's a 10' Tumble, rather than a 10' step; the difference is important when considering ACP, difficult terrain, and encumbrance.
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

Much higher skill pump than the UMD needed to use the training dummy
Not necessarily much higher. There's no "take 10" allowed for Use Magic Device, so you need a UMD modifier of +20 to succeed on a rolled 1 (i.e., you'll Emulate a Class Feature to activate the Sparring Dummy of the Master as if you were a 1st level Monk) 224 times in a row without failing. Conversely, Savvy Rogue allows you to "take 12" on other skill checks, so you'll make your DC 40 Tumble check with a +28 skill modifier. That's a difference of only 8 even though the DCs are 19 apart.

[Draz74]

Only 1 rank in each Knowledge used for creature identification (Arcane/Dungeoneering/Local/Nature/The Planes/Religion) would get you +1/+1 from switching Cloistered Cleric's Knowledge-domain for Knowledge Devotion; this'll make up for the lost BAB. And by fractionals, you still remain only one point behind up until Scout 3.

Doesn't Complete Champion have a line that you can only take one Devotion feat? (Or, at best, that you can only trade one Domain in for a Devotion feat? Although if that's the case, I suppose you could always just spend a normal feat on Travel Devotion, since the Travel Domain is pretty cool anyway.)

[Eldariel]

Doesn't Complete Champion have a line that you can only take one Devotion feat? (Or, at best, that you can only trade one Domain in for a Devotion feat? Although if that's the case, I suppose you could always just spend a normal feat on Travel Devotion, since the Travel Domain is pretty cool anyway.)

That seems to be regarded as a misconception at least the last time it was brought up; with the Cleric-level, you should be able to trade any number. Taking them is a different matter, of course.

[Greenish]

Doesn't Complete Champion have a line that you can only take one Devotion feat? (Or, at best, that you can only trade one Domain in for a Devotion feat? Although if that's the case, I suppose you could always just spend a normal feat on Travel Devotion, since the Travel Domain is pretty cool anyway.)Travel domain granted power is dependent on your cleric levels, so it isn't that hot for dipping. I would suggest switching travel domain for the feat if you're dipping cleric 1 and taking knowledge devotion as a feat.

[The Cat Goddess]

Or trade both in for Travel Devotion & Knowledge Devotion and get the Magic Domain.

[Curmudgeon]

Doesn't Complete Champion have a line that you can only take one Devotion feat? (Or, at best, that you can only trade one Domain in for a Devotion feat?
The limit for non-Clerics is 2 domain feats. The limit for Clerics (plus other classes with Clerical domains) is 3 domain feats, and at least one of those has to be through conversion of a Clerical domain.

The confusion is because Complete Champion insists that you can get only one domain feat from conversion of a domain. This means that even if you have a planar domain (which takes the place of 2 regular domains) you still only get 1 domain feat for it. This doesn't mean that you can only convert a domain once per character.

The conversion itself has no time constraints. So, for instance, you could benefit from the granted power of the Knowledge domain to pump up your skill ranks, then later decide to trade that domain in for Knowledge Devotion and make use of those Knowledge skills. Or you could even decide in the middle of combat to trade Travel for Travel Devotion. Any prepared Travel domain spells would no longer be on your list, but with just a swift action you could receive the feat's benefit.

[Azernak0]

Eternal Blade Archers always looked interesting but the whole Island in Time + Time Stands still takes place at level 17. By then, if the campaign has not already fallen apart, the Druid/Cleric/Wizard has made everyone in the party almost pointless:

"Ohh, you shot off 68 arrows doing 1d8+29 damage each? That's nice. I cast Time Stop and Gate in some Great Wyrm Gold Dragons to end the encounter."

Swift Hunter seems to take off at level 6 or so and even though it isn't as powerful as some other volley builds, it doesn't take forever to accomplish. However, curiosity strikes me: I have never seen an Eternal Blade Archer fleshed out. What does one look like?

[Greenish]

Or you could even decide in the middle of combat to trade Travel for Travel Devotion. Any prepared Travel domain spells would no longer be on your list, but with just a swift action you could receive the feat's benefit.I thought that you kept the domain spells, but lost the domain granted power.

[Curmudgeon]

I thought that you kept the domain spells, but lost the domain granted power.
Nope. You trade everything from the domain to get the feat.

[Eldariel]

Eternal Blade Archers always looked interesting but the whole Island in Time + Time Stands still takes place at level 17. By then, if the campaign has not already fallen apart, the Druid/Cleric/Wizard has made everyone in the party almost pointless:

"Ohh, you shot off 68 arrows doing 1d8+29 damage each? That's nice. I cast Time Stop and Gate in some Great Wyrm Gold Dragons to end the encounter."

Oh, it's by no means a Tier 1 or 2 class, but it's a very solid Tier 3 on high levels. Only problem is, that's of course not nearly enough to compete with level 9 spells. Still, immediate action turn along with the ability to shoot lethal at pretty much anything vulnerable to damage from anywhere is a rather solid resume for a non-full caster.

Of course, that doesn't really matter if 9th level spells are game, but if not, you're pretty well off. And even if they are, you can generally provide something full casters otherwise aren't generally built for; large amounts of typeless damage that hits quite reliably against most things.


Swift Hunter seems to take off at level 6 or so and even though it isn't as powerful as some other volley builds, it doesn't take forever to accomplish. However, curiosity strikes me: I have never seen an Eternal Blade Archer fleshed out. What does one look like?

Well, the basic idea would be something like:

Ranger 1 - PBS, (Track)
Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
Barbarian 1 - Precise Shot (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem to taste)
Warblade 1
Warblade 2
Warblade 3 - Weapon Focus
Warblade 4
Warblade 5 - Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes (for some secondary control, or if using Ranged Threat), Blind-Fight (if going for Pierce Magical Concealment; note, Seeking bow generally makes that a non-issue), Quick Draw (it has its uses)
Fighter 1 - Weapon Specialization, Ranged Weapon Mastery
Warblade 6
Eternal Blade 1
Eternal Blade 2 - Knowledge Devotion/Woodland Archer/Extra Rage
Eternal Blade 3
Eternal Blade 4
Eternal Blade 5 - Knowledge Devotion/Woodland Archer/Extra Rage
Eternal Blade 6
Eternal Blade 7
Eternal Blade 8 - Knowledge Devotion/Woodland Archer/Extra Rage
Eternal Blade 9
Eternal Blade 10

Obviously, you can vary things to taste (order of the early feats is pretty free, as is the late ones; Extra Rage would be good early too). You're basically a standard Archer levels 1-3, with first martial stuff (Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind, Leading the Charge/Blood in the Water/Hunter's Sense & al.) on level 4. You could reorder the levels, but I like Ranger skills on level 1, and Rapid Shot ASAP.

With retraining rules in effect, you could change those around a lot for fun and profit. Fighter-level is timed to so you can get Ranged Weapon Mastery in an expedite manner, but if Targeteer variant is allowed, you'll want Arrow Storm instead, and probably want to take it earlier pushing RWM a bit later.


Flaws are obviously quite useful if allowed allowing a more compressed feat package; if desired, Precise Shot and PBS can be completely excluded as they are in no ways necessary to your functioning, especially if you eventually get a Precise bow. And of course, Able Learner as a general feat would be nice (Half-Elf/Drow could sorta-kinda qualify).

As touched upon, you could fit Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment if desired (lots of miss chances gone; you could also arguably use Ring of Blinking without penalty), or Power Attack if wanting melee, or a host of similar feats to increase your versatility (Darkstalker is a good one if you invest in stealth).

And yeah, you prolly want Favored Enemy: Arcanists [Complete Mage], or Undead [Elf Substitution - Races of the Wild] from your Ranger-level if campaign is generic enough. Switching Wild Empathy & al. for Speaks with X some times per day [Complete Champion] is prolly good. Also, Solitary Hunter [Dragon Magazine] is fine if allowed, trading away the Animal Companion you'll never have. And obviously, Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) over Rage, and if mixing in melee, Pounce over Fast Movement [Complete Champion]. Fighter wants Hit'n'Run Fighter [Drow of the Underdark], and Targeteer [Dragon Magazine] if available (even just for the free Greatbow proficiency).

Oh, and for items, you obviously want as good a bow as possible (Splitting, Force, Seeking are all insanely good options) and Tiger Claw items for Dancing Mongoose into Raging Mongoose once you qualify (just pick e.g. Sudden Leap and Blood in the Water, or some random maneuver off the low levels to qualify; Rabid Wolf Strike is pretty nice, for example, and you'll have some non-prepared maneuvers anyways) are about it for specific items you'll want.


So...that's about it for the generics. Few levels (the Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger setup) can be twiddled with and you can go Ranger 4/Warblade 6 Wood Elf in a game with favored class rules (taking Champion of the Wild to trade spellcasting for bonus feat), or just use Half-Elf/Half-Drow no matter how bad they suck. But that's bleh. Wood Elf is prolly better there.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and you'll want a Fanged Mask [MiC] if your DM doesn't allow recovering on a ranged attack (as per RAW) as that gives you a secondary hand-free natural attack you can use without penalty as a flourish of sorts (regardless of what you attack; just hit the air if you have nothing else) to allow recovery of your maneuvers. This makes for e.g. Time Stands Still Raging Mongoose into Full Attack + Recovery.

[Gnaeus]

Not necessarily much higher. There's no "take 10" allowed for Use Magic Device, so you need a UMD modifier of +20 to succeed on a rolled 1 (i.e., you'll Emulate a Class Feature to activate the Sparring Dummy of the Master as if you were a 1st level Monk) 224 times in a row without failing. Conversely, Savvy Rogue allows you to "take 12" on other skill checks, so you'll make your DC 40 Tumble check with a +28 skill modifier. That's a difference of only 8 even though the DCs are 19 apart.

+19, as I said earlier. A 20 is a success, and you can't roll 0.

A 9 difference is a big deal. Skill items increase in cost exponentially, as do stat items. But of course, you will have different side benefits between pumping dex and cha.

[Curmudgeon]

+19, as I said earlier. A 20 is a success
No, a 20 is always a failure here. You need +20 for your skill modifier to make DC 21 with a rolled 1; Emulate a Class Feature DC of 1st level Monk is 20 + 1 for the level.

A 9 difference is a big deal. Skill items increase in cost exponentially, as do stat items. Check the formulas: these don't increase in cost exponentially; they only increase quadratically.

[Vaynor]

If you go Zen Archery or Intuitive Strike, you can use your Wisdom instead of your Dexterity for attack. With that, you can have a higher Will saving throw, higher saves overall (+2 just for a dip), Wis to AC, Improved Unarmed Strike and slightly better damage for when you're locked in melee (or your bow is somehow destroyed or unusable), bonus spells for Ranger and increased AC, and Evasion pretty early (though Evasion is also acquired pretty early for Scout). With Ascetic Hunter, you can also add your levels in Ranger to the DC of Stunning Fist attempts (which, with your high Wis means they'll be stunned quite badly) and to damage with unarmed strikes, which means you'll be equally dangerous in melee and ranged combat so as long as you move.

Make sure to also pick up a level of Shiba Protector (OA 222). It has some annoying prerequisite feats, but you get to add your Wisdom to both your attack and damage rolls. With zen archery, you're getting your Wisdom twice on your attack rolls.

[Zergrusheddie]

I'm sure other people can figure out a better build:

Sneak Attack Fighter 1
Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1
Sneak Attack Fighter 8
Warblade 1 (for the ultra sexy Iron Heart Surge. No more fatigue or other bad stuff)
SA Fighter the rest

Stats are the same as all the other ones: Max Dexterity, put some in Strength for an extra point or two, and Constitution is nice to have if you get Fireballed.

Feats:
H. Point Blank Shot
1. Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot
6. Woodland Archer
9. Extra Rage or something else

It does a lot more damage than Swift Hunter. The only problems are that you have no way of overcoming Fortification or Immunities other than the two weapon crystals and you need a flank, which is admittedly annoying. Any thoughts?

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[lsfreak]

It does a lot more damage than Swift Hunter. The only problems are that you have no way of overcoming Fortification or Immunities other than the two weapon crystals and you need a flank, which is admittedly annoying. Any thoughts?

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Not annoying. Impossible. You can't flank with a ranged weapon.

(If it were possible, there's be better ways of getting full BAB + sneak attack, I'm sure. Rogue + swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw and Knowledge Devotion, if nothing else, for a few extra skill points.)

[Darrin]

Not annoying. Impossible. You can't flank with a ranged weapon.


Elvencraft bows (Races of the Wild)
Bow blades, crossbow bayonets (Complete Scoundrel).
Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII)
Ranged Threat (Dragon #350)
...and there's probably some tomfoolery to be had with Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw.

[lsfreak]

Elvencraft bows (Races of the Wild)
Bow blades, crossbow bayonets (Complete Scoundrel).
Okay, it's possible. When in melee range. In which case you might as well take all your bow feats and invest them in TWF and do more damage, and you don't have to worry about AoO's on every attack (or preventing them) assuming your DM considers full ranged attacks as non-provoking is an editing error


Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII)
Doesn't help with ranged weapons. Simply lets you flank at range for allies; you get no flanking benefits and allies still must meet normal flanking requirements. The ranger is simply treated as threatening the ally from an opposite corner for all allies.


Ranged Threat (Dragon #350)
This one I didn't know about. However, I'm still not sure it works. It says you threaten, but nothing about flanking - flanking benefits are still melee attacks only, as per the flanking section of the PHB/SRD. "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner."


...and there's probably some tomfoolery to be had with Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw.
Possibly, but off the top of my head I can't see anything, nor could I see it being particularly useful to a precision damage build based off flanking.

Ranged sneak attack can work, but it's not flanking that it comes from. Invisibility, hiding, and so on would be how it would work. Which isn't nearly as feasible as a swift hunter build.

[Keld Denar]

Also, the Arrow Mind spell allows you to threaten with your bow shots. This is better than an elvencraft bow or similar, as you get all of your bow specific feats and abilities with the attack. Its a Ranger1 and Sorc/Wiz1 spell.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget Clarion Commander's Perpetual Flank!

[T.G. Oskar]

Make sure to also pick up a level of Shiba Protector (OA 222). It has some annoying prerequisite feats, but you get to add your Wisdom to both your attack and damage rolls. With zen archery, you're getting your Wisdom twice on your attack rolls.

Problem with Shiba Protector is that a dip in Monk is quite feat-intensive in order to allow maximization of options. You can forget about Zen Archery and Intuitive Strike, go for Weapon Finesse instead and top Dexterity into something unfunny (so that Dex and Wis are roughly similar), which would make Shiba Protector add instead of replace (thus, damage would be BAB + Dex + Wis, which would be several points lower but since the idea is to stay in Ranger as much as possible, you'd still get BAB +16).

The requisite feats also matter. Since the Swift Hunter build is (usually) an archery build, most of your feats will go to add to your archery (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Woodland Archery also works a bit, and later Greater Manyshot if you get the chance), plus Swift Hunter (and Improved Skirmisher). With Monk, there's at least one or two extra required feats to make it viable (namely, Weapon Finesse or Intuitive Strike to dump Strength and Ascetic Hunter to get some of your Monk abilities to improve, though the latter is optional). Plus, you're already going one or two levels without Scout; any more is not very recommended.

Though, I'd still would like to see something along the lines of Scout 3/Monk 1~2/Ranger X/Shiba Protector 1 to see if it's effective. That could make Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Strike unnecessary (to an extent), and since it's a Forgotten Realms PrC, it might have some synergy with Knight of the Arcane Order (for Wizard spellcasting on Ranger spell slots) and Shooting Stars Ranger substitution levels (for extra spell slots, since with 6 non-Ranger levels you'll be lucky to have a single 4th level spell slot). "Might", of course, being if Shiba Protector doesn't lock you on patron deity options (otherwise, it would be difficult to decide between Shiba Protector and a single extra appliance of Wis or Shooting Stars/Knight of the Arcane Order and improved spellcasting for Ranger, not to mention forced to be LG...)