Building a living army

[Stryke]

Now i know this may be a strange concept for some of you, but it turns out you can actaully have an army that isn't undead. If any of you are currently suffering from shock i'll leave a paragraph break so you know where to start reading once you've calmed down.

So if your character were to have an army how would you go about it, i.e. how would you get your army how would you structure it etc. Also if you have any stories to tell on the subject feel free to throw them in, hell even if you just want to talk about a single unit type you think would be cool go ahead.

Personally i would get the Dm to run a Heroes of Battle Campaign then wait until he gave me an army.
Then i'd probably just rip of the Romans.
I would however get a bunch of say level 5 rogues and set them up so they wield bastard swords and long bows and set their skills out such that they were experts in covert operations group them into battalions of 200 and equipe them with enough fire arrows to raze a city.
then i'd just teleport them behind enemy lines and tell them to go nuts.

[Gnosko]

I have always found armies in D&D very interesting.

Your standard battalion of warrior/fighter foot soldiers would be nothing more magic fodder especially if deployed in conventional phalanx or platoon formations without some form of magical protections.

Most pitched battles would be decided by a combination of magical power, strategy in deployment of magic, subterfuge, and the money/resources to afford the best magical protections/offences.

[Stryke]

I have always found armies in D&D very interesting.

Your standard battalion of warrior/fighter foot soldiers would be nothing more magic fodder especially if deployed in conventional phalanx or platoon formations without some form of magical protections.

Most pitched battles would be decided by a combination of magical power, strategy in deployment of magic, subterfuge, and the money/resources to afford the best magical protections/offences.

so the point your making is that the entire battle would be won depending on who had the stronger and better used magic, a fair point but remeber for very influential move a caster can make there will always be a way to counter it.
Personally if i was going to DM a campaign with armys in it i would make it a low magic campaign, plus you've got to remeber that in DnD higher level PC's and NPC's are some what of a comodity, and wouldn't be cheap to hire so there wont be enough to make a big a diffrence as your implying

[The Glyphstone]

so the point your making is that the entire battle would be won depending on who had the stronger and better used magic, a fair point but remeber for very influential move a caster can make there will always be a way to counter it.


This is true - but that counter will, 99.9% of the time, be another caster. At low levels or in low magic games, it's possible for mundanes to be a threat to spellcasters...at high levels, they'll reshape battlefields and win wars singlehandedly, unless stopped by another caster. Thus, you can't have war campaigns with spellcasters above 5th-6th level or so....low magic really is the way to go.

[Johel]

A concept I would like to try in a low-level game :

Skirmishers
Warrior (1)
Scale Mail, Shortbow, Dagger
Str 11 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 8
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

Shield Bearers
Warrior (1)
Scale Mail, Tower Shield, Flail, Dagger
Str 13 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 8
Toughness
Toughness

Militia
Commoner (1)
Str 11 Dex 11 Con 11 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10
Longspear, Club

Each of such troop would be organized in squads of 10 men.
Each squad would have 1 mule or donkey to carry common equipment (food, rope, ammunition, firewood, water...)

In an open battle, 1 squad of Skirmishers will always be paired with 1 squad of Shield Bearers, the former hidding behind the latter and advancing in a long line. If militia is available, it would simply gather at the back.

The formation would advance with a single move action per turn, then switch to Total Defense. This would bring the AC of the Shield Bearer to 22 while the Skirmishers would benefit from a cover against any frontal attack. Militia is screwed but it's not like we can't replace them...

If something comes in range, the formation keep advancing slowly, allowing the Shield Bearers to stay in Total Defense. Skirmisher take pot shots at the target and stay in formation. Militia emulate the Shield Bearers.
If the target makes it to melee , the Shield Bearers are not to attack. They stay in Total Defense. With AC 22, it will really take a lot of efforts or luck for random 1st level soldiers to actually wound a Shield Bearer. All the while, the Skirmishers fire at the enemy with no penalty because of Precise Shot. If a Shield Bearer falls, 3 Militiamen can keep the enemy at bay with their longspears until a Skirmisher get the tower shield and steps in the gap.

We would need some small elite troops to react to flanking. Probably some kind of heavy armored guys with Greatswords. They would double move to keep up with the formation and, upon contact with the enemy, they would move on the sides to outflank the enemy.

Add a few rangers for intelligence gathering and sniper work.

Now, this army would have two main weaknesses :

Because it has to move slowly moving, making it an easy target from archers with longbows.
Because it has to move in formation, spell casters are going to enjoy it very much.

We would need several squads to work together to present a very large, unified front. Ideally, 4 squads would work together to form square when necessary.
We would need light cavalry to keep archers out of effective firing range. This, however, can be achieved with a single Wizard or Sorcerer.

[ForzaFiori]

A concept I would like to try in a low-level game :

Skirmishers
Warrior (1)
Scale Mail, Shortbow, Dagger
Str 11 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 8
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot

Shield Bearers
Warrior (1)
Scale Mail, Tower Shield, Flail, Dagger
Str 13 Dex 11 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 8
Toughness
Toughness

Militia
Commoner (1)
Str 11 Dex 11 Con 11 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10
Longspear, Club

Each of such troop would be organized in squads of 10 men.
Each squad would have 1 mule or donkey to carry common equipment (food, rope, ammunition, firewood, water...)

In an open battle, 1 squad of Skirmishers will always be paired with 1 squad of Shield Bearers, the former hidding behind the latter and advancing in a long line. If militia is available, it would simply gather at the back.

The formation would advance with a single move action per turn, then switch to Total Defense. This would bring the AC of the Shield Bearer to 22 while the Skirmishers would benefit from a cover against any frontal attack. Militia is screwed but it's not like we can't replace them...

If something comes in range, the formation keep advancing slowly, allowing the Shield Bearers to stay in Total Defense. Skirmisher take pot shots at the target and stay in formation. Militia emulate the Shield Bearers.
If the target makes it to melee , the Shield Bearers are not to attack. They stay in Total Defense. With AC 22, it will really take a lot of efforts or luck for random 1st level soldiers to actually wound a Shield Bearer. All the while, the Skirmishers fire at the enemy with no penalty because of Precise Shot. If a Shield Bearer falls, 3 Militiamen can keep the enemy at bay with their longspears until a Skirmisher get the tower shield and steps in the gap.

We would need some small elite troops to react to flanking. Probably some kind of heavy armored guys with Greatswords. They would double move to keep up with the formation and, upon contact with the enemy, they would move on the sides to outflank the enemy.

Add a few rangers for intelligence gathering and sniper work.

Now, this army would have two main weaknesses :

Because it has to move slowly moving, making it an easy target from archers with longbows.
Because it has to move in formation, spell casters are going to enjoy it very much.

We would need several squads to work together to present a very large, unified front. Ideally, 4 squads would work together to form square when necessary.
We would need light cavalry to keep archers out of effective firing range. This, however, can be achieved with a single Wizard or Sorcerer.

These three types are an excellent start, but as you pointed out, there are a few more things needed. A cavalry force would be useful (they could be both light calvary, which could act as reconnaissance and flying companies, and heavy calvary, which keeps people from flanking you, and then flanks the enemy. Specialized forces for certain types of terrain are also useful (like the alpine soldiers of WWII)

[Denihilist]

In a forgotten realms campaign, I came up with a way for my rather rich band of adventurers to "sponsor" other aspiring or less fortunate adventuring groups. As time went on, with our help, they did the same under the auspices of our Organization now called the Army of the Light. The rules were simple, help where needed, save all who can be saved and deny the light. By helping form each group into a small squad of 5 each with a particular function: Thorn (pole arm, or ranged weapons), Blade (swords), Rock (bludgeoning weapon specialist), Mage, Rogue (can be a rogue, or another class that compliments the group). The point was to create, organically through character play, an army powerful enough to re-take Myth Drannor. An army like that would very easily be a force to be reckoned with anywhere.

[demidracolich]

Have you tried looking through heroes of battle? That book is about armies.

[Shademan]

get yer hands on the third party book "Empire" read and enjoy.
Their rules for mass combat and fitting out soldiers are... ok.

[Asheram]

Don't forget the logistics behind the army as well.

Paying the soldiers.
Feeding the soldiers.
Feeding the beasts of burden.
Equipment.
Spare equipment.
Planning a route for the wagontrail
Paying the spies.
Bribes for hostile forces.
Paying Assassins.

It's not cheap waging war.

[Lycan 01]

I've actually throught about running large campaigns where there would be army vs. army battles, but I realize that I have no real way to actually work them out. How do you determine the outcome? I mean, it'd take hours to work out individual attacks... So do you just calculate the strength of certain units and compare them to each other, or just roll dice with mods from either side to determine the outcome? :smallconfused:

Actually, I'll be running a session in a few days that involves a small-scale siege. It'll have a small fleet of pirates attacking a coastal port the
PCs are helping to defend. I'm not sure if I should just have most of the combat happen "off-screen" with the PCs just defending the Governor, or if they should actually lead the militia into battle and carve through tons of mooks and a handful of elites... Or should I calculate up the stats from both sides, roll some opposing tests, and then just tell them how the battle goes? :smallconfused:

[Asheram]

I've actually throught about running large campaigns where there would be army vs. army battles, but I realize that I have no real way to actually work them out. How do you determine the outcome? I mean, it'd take hours to work out individual attacks... So do you just calculate the strength of certain units and compare them to each other, or just roll dice with mods from either side to determine the outcome? :smallconfused:

Actually, I'll be running a session in a few days that involves a small-scale siege. It'll have a small fleet of pirates attacking a coastal port the
PCs are helping to defend. I'm not sure if I should just have most of the combat happen "off-screen" with the PCs just defending the Governor, or if they should actually lead the militia into battle and carve through tons of mooks and a handful of elites... Or should I calculate up the stats from both sides, roll some opposing tests, and then just tell them how the battle goes? :smallconfused:

Well... In Heroes of Battle that deal with larges-cale combat, they brought in the system of Victory Points.
Essentially, Victory points is earned by doing favorable things for your side, say scouting, assassinating enemy officers, supply raids and assisting troops in combat.
When all is said and done, you summarise these victory points and compare them to a pre-made chart of how well the battle could've been.

Note that this is more for large-scale battles where the heroes can't be everywhere.

Now, for smaller battles, My GM grouped together all friendly combatants in small groups and rolled just one die for the whole group (think warhammer if you've played it, except that you roll just one to-hit and damage die for each group), and grouped their HP as well.
From our point of view, it worked pretty well.

[Lycan 01]

That might work. I'm an avid 40K player, so maybe I could tweak the concept a bit.


My friend actually suggested yesterday that if we ever do a Dark Heresy game on a war-torn planet, that we actually play a game of 40K to determine the outcome of story-centric battles. And now that I have the Daemonhunters Codex with the rules for using Inquisitors and stuff, that actually is a pretty good idea. :smallbiggrin:

[Gnorman]

Bind masses of Legion Devils.

[Nidogg]

You could, with enough money BUILD an army of golems/ summon an army of angels/devils or have animated objects do your bidding...

[tribble]

I have always found armies in D&D very interesting.

Your standard battalion of warrior/fighter foot soldiers would be nothing more magic fodder especially if deployed in conventional phalanx or platoon formations without some form of magical protections.

Most pitched battles would be decided by a combination of magical power, strategy in deployment of magic, subterfuge, and the money/resources to afford the best magical protections/offences.

This man has pretty much enunciated the problem I have with D&D settings in general.

For example, in Faerun, city-states function a great deal like mundane countries, with mundane armies and defense forces. However, in the same city-states, there are casters ranging from guys who hang about in bars and discuss how "totally awesome" it would be to research second level spells all the way through to Elminster, who is himself.

This doesn't make any sense. There should not be any kind of organised mundane combat, heck, it shouldn't be possible to even get training in mundane combat anymore, for the same reason one can't easily get training with medieval european weaponry: it's obsolete, no one uses it anymore. Fighters should be extinct, barbarians and rangers should be endangered species, Paladins should be getting phased out for clerics, who are better healers and more versatile, because damage sponging is a job for golems and elementals, and damage output is a job for mages or possibly, more golems and elementals.

[lightningcat]

I believe that it is mentioned in either Heroes of Battle or Complete Warrior, that you can run higher magic wars much like you would run a modern war. Small groups of commandos, trench warfare, scattered formations and similar concepts all work. Using classical tactics (such as phalanx fighting) in a high magic war only gets lots of people killed.

[Irreverent Fool]

Tippyverse.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! I am the Wizard! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ElephantInTheLivingRoom)

Really though, I think the whole flawed premise is that anyone can just pick up a new class whenever they like. Only the PCs have this option. This affects the population available. You'd think spelling this out would have some effect, but there's still the problem that the books pretty much say: There's always someone more powerful. I mean, someone has to make those magic items the PCs can, by RAW, just waltz into a place with a high enough gp limit and buy at the local adventuring store.

So yeah. We can either hang a lampshade on it (which for many keeps the game the way they feel it should be) or we can extrapolate and end up with the Tippyverse or Eberron at least.

obnoxious
sig

[The Mentalist]

Bind masses of Legion Devils.

Is there anything it doesn't solve? Especially when they have Power Attack.

PS: Is there any chance we'll be seeing the other summoning handbooks from you?

Somewhat on subject is it wrong that I thought when he specified living army "But undead are so much more efficient, no rest, no supply lines, and most importantly no families left at home to mourn.

[absolmorph]

Is there anything it doesn't solve? Especially when they have Power Attack.

PS: Is there any chance we'll be seeing the other summoning handbooks from you?

Somewhat on subject is it wrong that I thought when he specified living army "But undead are so much more efficient, no rest, no supply lines, and most importantly no families left at home to mourn.
That's a benefit?
Weaksauce.

[Johel]

Is there anything it doesn't solve? Especially when they have Power Attack.

PS: Is there any chance we'll be seeing the other summoning handbooks from you?

Somewhat on subject is it wrong that I thought when he specified living army "But undead are so much more efficient, no rest, no supply lines, and most importantly no families left at home to mourn.

Well... they are efficient, yes.

But the risk of them slipping out of control somehow outweight the advantages.

Skeletons and Zombies can only be controlled up to a certain amount of HD, meaning that, to get an army of them, you would need either a lot's of spellcasters or a Morgh...or a large cage to lock your uncontrolled undeads.

Wights have a tendency to multiply quickly if left unchecked. And since they are smarter than your average commoner, you don't want any of them to escape your control. Shadows and other incorporal undeads are even worse if they get rogue.

Really, the only viable way to use undead in warfare is to plague your enemy's economy by releasing wild undeads in the countryside.

[Escheton]

there is a orc warlord prestigeclass somehwhere in the fearun books that allow a(n) (half-)orc to have a massive army with the leadership feat.

else just dig through arms and equipment guide and buy an army.

[The Mentalist]

Well... they are efficient, yes.

But the risk of them slipping out of control somehow outweight the advantages.

Skeletons and Zombies can only be controlled up to a certain amount of HD, meaning that, to get an army of them, you would need either a lot's of spellcasters or a Morgh...or a large cage to lock your uncontrolled undeads.

Wights have a tendency to multiply quickly if left unchecked. And since they are smarter than your average commoner, you don't want any of them to escape your control. Shadows and other incorporal undeads are even worse if they get rogue.

Really, the only viable way to use undead in warfare is to plague your enemy's economy by releasing wild undeads in the countryside.

There's also shapechange cheese, shapechange into a spawning undead (Note: I only think this still works, I stopped following polymorph fixes and just went with my own rules) and hit something, then you're the top of the ladder making control a bit easier.

[WeeFreeMen]

Quite possibly the MOST FUN i've ever had as a DM was DM'n the Mass Army battles. The strategy that goes into it is purely excellent. It allows GM vs. PC (In a sense) to were it is Fair (Aside from Rule 0). In my campaign, it was several nations the PCs had to unite for the common good. Throughout the campaign the PCs got battalions to command, untrained. They got to pick how to train them and for what, however, it must be funded by the PC's. This was alleviated by the PC's doing the countries higher-ups favors (From assassination to alleviation. The PCs were all Neutral, it was a Merc campaign). It was a Low magic campaign (No casters, partial casters IE: Ranger/Pally were OK; Magic items were exceedingly rare. It was a bit Steampunk in Tech level)

Anyway. As the DM, I too got to make an Army. However, it turned out, our Alternate DM wanted to DM the big fight so I got to use my Army and tactics.

My Army was as Follows (Each player only had 1000 men to work with):
I went more with the Huns route, as I find their tactics very effective.
Assault Teams
5 20 man Covert Assault Teams, further broken down into squads of 4. So 5 cells, per squad with 5 Squads in a Branch. Overall 100 Men.
-Leader of Cell: Marshal/Dread Commando (Melee Spec'd)
-Support Specialist: Healer (War/Heal Domain) Focused Buffer.
-2 Ranged Specialist (Scout/Ranger) Rapid Fire, within 30ft Spec. Lots of movement. Hard to catch and hit. Armed with Flesh ripper poisoned arrows, followed by Fire arrows.

Line-Men
300 Line-Men. Towershield+Spears (lol. Sparta)
All of them Dwarfs, Impossible to Move.
Within each 50 there was 1 Leader. He was a high level Marshal with about 4-6 levels of Warblade (White Raven).
Each Line-Men was about lv 6. Fighters (tactical Soilder Var)

Mobil-Team
These are the heavy hitters. Mounted combatants, making up 500 of the Army. From Charge+Ride By Attack to Mounted Archery, mostly Archers raining down as many arrows as possible. All rapid fire built, effective range of 30ft. Knights, Fighters, Rangers

Rain Team
200 of the Nations best Archers, we had helped out a Tribe of Goliaths who were in the Mountain tops being cut off from food supplies. After saving them, we acquired the ability to train Cragtop Archers. Rain-Team, got many many LoLz when I told the stand in DM their effective Range. (About 500+). Rangers the Lot of them, many-shot variant. Ranging from 6-9lv. They were also backed up by about 15 Hulking Hurlers. Giants we bribed into helping us, gotta love that great diplomacy and bluff skills..

The Coup-De-Grace [Me]
To top it all off, what was I you ask?
Bard/Warblade. TWF/DFI, White Raven specialist.
This is what I was made for, not to mention Iron Chant buff (DR 5/-) to a HUGE portion of the Army made a unbelievable difference. You may be asking, but I thought there was no Caster classes?!, Well, all I did was Cut out the casting and replaced it with Maneuver ;] ) This was really not a huge deal, as half the party was ToB)

Also, we had a crew of about 50 Healer classes, who went around casting Aid, and Bless, and Cures throughout the battle, they were lead by a Combat Medic who was directly under me acting as my Officer.

As for structure, It was set up In Divisions, divided by Squads, further divided by Cells. Each had a proportional amount of leadership based on the numbers. (Usually something divisible by 20).

/End

[Gnorman]

PS: Is there any chance we'll be seeing the other summoning handbooks from you?

Soon enough.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If you don't want to go find thrid party publishers then a completely legal and extremely cheesy way to gain a living army is the following. Take Leadership. Have a cohort that has leadership/have the cohort take leadership. When that cohort's cohort becomes strong enough, have him take leadership as well. Wash, rinse and repeat until you have an army the size you want. Also, if you have enough money you can hire some payed mooks to boost your ranks even more. Most of them only cost like what, a silverpiece every so often? Also, make sure that your DM allows you to keep your same cohort but just increase his level to the right number every time you gain a "higher level cohort"