Undead - making immune to positive energy?

[Ashira]

I am setting my epic party of lvl 27 (5 chars) against an Atropal (undead CR 30, epic handbook). It's the big nasty end boss of my awesome campaign. It's meant to be an insanely hard battle but something that can be accomplished with great effort. My party is definitely a bit overpowered anyways.

The difficulty I have with the scenario is: our 2 clerics with Mass Heals can dish out 500 dmg (250 if makes both saves) PER ROUND to this BBEB who is meant to make them cower in fear. That ends the battle quickly. I learned this with the demilich I threw at them earlier.

I am going to make him immune to healing/positive energy.

My question: how do I do this without making him unbalanced? I would be okay if this pushed him up to be like CR 31, but not higher...so I was thinking of taking away one of his OTHER immunities to compensate.

Any recommendations?

[AmberVael]

Given that it has SR 42... does it need anything else? Assuming they have 27 caster level, that means they need to roll a 15 to get a spell to affect the thing.

[Khatoblepas]

Atropals are already immune to positive energy. Due to their Regeneration ability, any damage that isn't Good or from a Sentient Weapon is nonlethal.

You'll note that the Atropal is Undead, and thus immune to nonlethal damage.

Sweet dreams, PCs.

[Drogorn]

Wouldn't a ring of positive energy protection do the job? (planar handbook, P81) That seems like it'd be a painfully obvious item for an intelligent undead to have.

[DarthCyberWolf]

And for any future undead they may face, I believe there is a ring in MiC that grants immunity to positive energy.

Side Note: ...wonder if you could put a curse on it to automatically equip itself to the first person to pick it up when they loot the body? No heals for ju!

Edit; Ninja!

[Dr Bwaa]

Given that it has SR 42... does it need anything else? Assuming they have 27 caster level, that means they need to roll a 15 to get a spell to affect the thing.

No epic level caster going up against the BBEG is going to be caught without
Items/spells that boost spell level Assay Resistance Lower Spell Resistance and/or Spell Vulnerability Important spells with SR: no
For that matter, no moderately-optimized caster over about level 9 is going to be without at least one or two of these.

[Boci]

Given that it has SR 42... does it need anything else? Assuming they have 27 caster level, that means they need to roll a 15 to get a spell to affect the thing.

Quicken a first level spells to give +10 bonus, boost you caster level by 4 and you beat it on natural 1. And ninjad.

[NEO|Phyte]

Atropals are already immune to positive energy. Due to their Regeneration ability, any damage that isn't Good or from a Sentient Weapon is nonlethal.

You'll note that the Atropal is Undead, and thus immune to nonlethal damage.

Sweet dreams, PCs.

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Guess what Atropals lack (besides a "This regeneration works despite the creature having no Con score" exception)

[Khatoblepas]

Guess what Atropals lack (besides a "This regeneration works despite the creature having no Con score" exception)

But they do have a thematically correct weakness in their regeneration - living weapons, because they are undead. I'm tempted to say that the writer intended to give it Regeneration, since there's no errata that says otherwise about it, and the update kept it as Regeneration.

The Atropal is CR30, has no real fast healing apart from the Regeneration, so as it stands it's pretty weak to one big blast. What does it's regeneration DO, and why does it have things that can bypass it if, as an undead, it doesn't have Regeneration?

[NEO|Phyte]

What does it's regeneration DO, and why does it have things that can bypass it if, as an undead, it doesn't have Regeneration?

Why does Complete Warrior's example Justiciar not have enough pre-PrC class levels to meet the skill requirements of the class? Why are there numerous other stat block errors scattered throughout assorted books? WotC isn't infallible.

[Optimystik]

Why aren't monks proficient with unarmed strikes? Why do Soulknives have power points? Why is a 7HD crab with various immunities CR 3? So many mysteries...

[Moriato]

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but

Guess what Atropals lack (besides a "This regeneration works despite the creature having no Con score" exception)

It doesn't say that regeneration stops working if you don't have a con score, just that it's a requirement to get it. An atropal somehow has it anyway, despite being undead (yay epic) so there's no reason to think it doesn't work.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why do Soulknives have power points?

So they can use feats that require psionic focus.

[DarthCyberWolf]

It's epic.

-Ninja! Again!

[Boci]

Why does Complete Warrior's example Justiciar not have enough pre-PrC class levels to meet the skill requirements of the class? Why are there numerous other stat block errors scattered throughout assorted books? WotC isn't infallible.

To be fair, its a RC: 30 monster. Its not that hard to imagine the writers just assuming that people would understand it broke that restriction of regerneration and forgot to add a clause to specify it. And ninjad again.

[Azernak0]

Why is a 7HD crab with various immunities CR 3?

Which one is that? That's a bad ass crab.

[Khatoblepas]

Going along the lines of "The writers knew Regeneration was an exception", I think it would be pretty awesome to have the Atropal eat the Heals and simply laugh it off.

It's just floating there, waiting for them to attack.The party wastes two 7th level spells on an admittedly obvious attack ("hey, a giant undead! Heal it to death!") only to find that you've subverted Revive Kills Zombie. The positive energy has no effect on a creature this vile, this evil. No life energy could ever touch it's hideous countenence. The Atropal summons it's epic minions, the divine spark hidden behind it's huge, dead, cold eyes glowing with malice overwhelming.

Roll initiative. Good luck.

[Greenish]

Which one is that? That's a bad ass crab.Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) it is, as far as I can tell.

[Moriato]

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) it is, as far as I can tell.

Yup, that's "That Damn Crab" alright. Possibly the most wildly under-CR'd creature of all time.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A few epic creatures were badly converted to 3.5. I don't think the creature is intended to be immune to damage from everything that doesn't over come its regeneration. [which would happen to a creature immune to nonlethal damage that has regeneration]
I'd suggest changing it to fast healing that doesn't work against those damage types.

That being said, I recall a spell called Life Ward it was exactly like death ward but it against positive energy effects.

[Deth Muncher]

Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) it is, as far as I can tell.

THAAAAAAAAT DAAAAAAAAAAMN CRAAAAAAAAB!

I thought he'd left these boards for good.

[Boci]

Yup, that's "That Damn Crab" alright. Possibly the most wildly under-CR'd creature of all time.

The Clockwork Adamantine Horror would like a word with you.

[Starbuck_II]

The Clockwork Adamantine Horror would like a word with you.

That Damn Crab isn't writen to be a TPK (read the tactics, it grabs 2 and leaves underwater).
Clockwork is a TPK (destruction and Disjunction)!

[Lycanthromancer]

Haunt shift it into a construct body, then overlay a magical aura that causes it to register as undead.

Or just note that regeneration plus immunity to nonlethal renders it immune to everything that doesn't overcome its regeneration.

...Which, yes, has already been mentioned.

[Zergrusheddie]

That Damn Crab isn't writen to be a TPK (read the tactics, it grabs 2 and leaves underwater).
Clockwork is a TPK (destruction and Disjunction)!

I am no expert on the game, but it seems like a CR 3 monster attacking at +10 for 1d8+9 twice is a hard monster. Hell, if it attacks 2 players it could probably kill each one of them. Attack, damage, grapple, more damage, release. 2d8+18 damage versus a Fighter's HP of 33 (and that's on the high side)? Oh, and an attack of opportunity.

I have to know; what is the Clockwork thingie?

[Lycanthromancer]

I am no expert on the game, but it seems like a CR 3 monster attacking at +10 for 1d8+9 twice is a hard monster. Hell, if it attacks 2 players it could probably kill each one of them. Attack, damage, grapple, more damage, release. 2d8+18 damage versus a Fighter's HP of 33 (and that's on the high side)? Oh, and an attack of opportunity.Note that it gets a +19 to grapple checks, and if it wins such a check after it hits, it automatically deals an additional 1d8+9.

So that's up to 4d8+36 per round. And opposed grapple checks don't auto-lose on a nat 1.

[Boci]

I have to know; what is the Clockwork thingie?

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/mainlist2.pl?Clockwork_Horror,_Adamantine

Now add the spell like abilities.

[lsfreak]

I am no expert on the game, but it seems like a CR 3 monster attacking at +10 for 1d8+9 twice is a hard monster. Hell, if it attacks 2 players it could probably kill each one of them. Attack, damage, grapple, more damage, release. 2d8+18 damage versus a Fighter's HP of 33 (and that's on the high side)? Oh, and an attack of opportunity.

Yes, it's hard. Impossible to beat, pretty much. But not a TPK, because in the tactics it basically says "It kills two people, laughs at the party, and walks away."

[Eldariel]

Yes, it's hard. Impossible to beat, pretty much. But not a TPK, because in the tactics it basically says "It kills two people, laughs at the party, and walks away."

It's beatable for a Core party. All you need is two Trippers and two buffer Wizards enlarging them and Ray of Enfeeblementing it... Now, something less specialized? Yeah, not happening.

[BobVosh]

Why the heck are people talking about TDC? Let it die, and lets never mention the accursed thing again.

That said, as someone mentioned, life ward. Doesn't require questionable interpretations, although I admit I haven't looked at the critter.

Life ward is exactly death ward vs positive energy. Same spell level, its in SpC and I think CD.

[Glimbur]

So, is a monk the correct answer to beating Atropal regen? Or should the fighter wield the cleric as a weapon?

[BobVosh]

The fighter should just cry as the cleric cast quicken divine power and righteous might. Particularly since the cleric is just high enough to get automatic quicken spell. 2 more and its a joke.

Also unless the cleric is made of silver you are going to need more than that.

Deathward kinda shuts him down though. Nightwalkers are much of a threat at 27, and all he does is negative energy stuff.

*edit* Woah, he rebukes as a level 72 cleric? lol...

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Wouldn't a ring of positive energy protection do the job? (planar handbook, P81) That seems like it'd be a painfully obvious item for an intelligent undead to have.I love u


*edit* Woah, he rebukes as a level 72 cleric? lol...I have a non-epic build that rebukes as a 200 level cleric :smallcool:

[Shalist]

And a quick rehash of something I posted in a different thread...

Life ward:LIFE WARD (SC 131)
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
...With a brush of your hand you surround the creature in crawling shadows, a cloak of negative energy that whirls and swims across the creature’s body.
...A creature warded by this spell gains protection from the effects of positive energy, including magical healing. The spell can be cast upon undead to offer additional protection against the turning abilities of clerics. The subject is immune to all positive energy effects, including conjuration (healing) spells, channeled positive energy such as from the turn undead ability, or other effects that derive their power from positive energy.
...This spell offers protection from the blinding effect of the Positive Energy Plane, and warded creatures gain no temporary hit points while there.

And another that could throw them for a loop (again, clerical, though)

SPARK OF LIFE (SC 196)
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 3, druid 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Undead creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A touch from your hand outlines an undead creature in a faint yellow glow, making it vulnerable to many of the dangers that can harm living creatures.
..For the duration of the spell, the undead creature is subject to extra damage from critical hits (and thus sneak attacks), nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and damage to its physical ability scores (though it still lacks a Constitution score and thus can’t take Constitution damage) as if it were alive.
..It loses its immunity to effects that require a Fortitude save, as well as its invulnerability to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. However, an undead affected by this spell gains a bonus on its Fortitude saves equal to its Charisma bonus (if any). (The bonus doesn’t apply to Fortitude saves against effects that also affect objects.) It must breathe, eat, and sleep just like a normal living creature (though the last two aren’t likely to come into play thanks to the spell’s short duration).
..While it is under the effect of this spell, both negative energy (such as inflict spells) and positive energy (such as cure spells) heal damage to the undead creature, rather than damaging it.
..An undead creature affected by this spell retains all of its other traits.

Have you considered one of those friendship rings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#friendShield) that use 'shield other'? The atropal has all those wraiths to sponge up damage for him, after all.

There's a PHBII item, 'Dazzix's vest', that gives +5 to your SR for $25,000...though lowering SR is trivial without any cheese (ie one SC spell adds the person's CL to the fortitude save, and lowers it 15 points, and there are others).

'Heart of Stone' (SC 111, 5000g 500 xp though) last a year, and forces a CL check (vs. 10 + your CL) for anyone trying to heal you.

'Anti-magic ray,' $$y, but you shut down his casting if he fails a will save. (drag 109)

Depending on how you interpret "spells that heal damage do not work on that individual." ('target' line says "living creature," descriptive text says you can use it on undead :P ) :

GRAYMANTLE
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You create a cloud of sickly gray energy that streaks toward a living creature, wrapping it in the foul essence of unlife.
..A skull-shaped cloud of gray energy strikes your target. The gray radiance is transferred to the creature, covering it entirely. For the duration of the spell, a living subject cannot regain hit points or ability score points by any means (undead creatures can still gain hit points), nor can the creature remove negative levels. Regeneration or fast healing abilities the subject has from any source are suppressed for the duration of the spell.
..Spells that heal damage do not work on that individual. The subject can improve its current hit points by boosting its Constitution score and can receive temporary hit points (from an aid spell, for example).
..When the spell ends, automatic healing abilities, such as a troll’s regeneration, and items that restore hit points, such as a ring of regeneration, begin to function again.
This one requires a "caster level check of 15 + your CL"

Ebon Ray of Doom (Lost Empires of Faerun pg 31)
Necromancy
Level: asn 3, sor/wiz 4
components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Duration: 1 round/lvl
Saving throw: fortitude partial
SR: yes
You fire a black energy that drastically slows down the rate at which the subject can recover hit points. Any creature attempting to restore hit poitns to the subject by means of any sort of healing magic must succeed on a caster level check (DC 15 + your CL), or the healing effect fails. A subject with fast healing or regeneration must make a fortitude save each round, or the ability does not function that round.

Either dispelling screen or dispelling wall (can't remember which) would block his LoE, so he couldn't target you.

And my last stab at this for the night...a spell that blocks entire schools of magic. Generally not to great, but if you know that someone's going to be using, say, healing (conjuration) spells...

OTILUKE'S SUPPRESSING FIELD (Comp Mag 112)
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: 20 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation,
centered on you
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Your skin tingles as you radiate a field of powerful magic.
..When you cast this spell, designate either a school of magic or a subtype of magic (such as evil spells or fire spells). Spells of that type are suppressed within the area of your spell. Anyone attempting to cast such a spell in (or into) the area must succeed on a caster level check against a DC of 11 + your caster level. (Abilities and feats that improve the ability to defeat spell resistance, such as Spell Penetration, apply here as well.) ..Anyone attempting to activate an item that produces a spell or effect of that type must make a similar roll, using the item's caster level for the level check. Constant items or precast effects make this check when first exposed to your suppressing field. If they succeed, they remain unaffected for the duration. If they fail, they are suppressed for the duration, resuming function (if their duration has not expired) when they leave the area.

-'Positive Energy Resistance' feat for 10 resistance (LM pg 29)
-Necrotic Reserve lets you drop below 0 HP 1/day (LM pg 31), though you're staggered until you zap yourself with some "healing."


edit::

Hey, you need a weapon that is, good, epic, AND silver to bypass his damage reduction, so perhaps give some thought to using 'greater ironward'?

[Volthawk]

I have a non-epic build that rebukes as a 200 level cleric :smallcool:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn: Making epic levels look nothing special since 2009

Also, look at Libris Mortis. Atropal Scions. Low CR, but fun for a bit of an aftershock.

[Runestar]

What exactly makes the atropal so tough? Most of his attacks use negative energy, so a single mass death ward spell (which the whole party should have access to by this stage) pretty much wards you against his attacks.

Nightcrawlers are hardly a challenge by the time your party is tough enough to face one. Even its greater dispel magic SLA would be useless as it caps at +20. :smallmad:

[QuantumSteve]

What exactly makes the atropal so tough? Most of his attacks use negative energy, so a single mass death ward spell (which the whole party should have access to by this stage) pretty much wards you against his attacks.

Nightcrawlers are hardly a challenge by the time your party is tough enough to face one. Even its greater dispel magic SLA would be useless as it caps at +20. :smallmad:

I really think this is a good example of the short comings of the Dispel Chain. Utterly useless in epic. These should really be rewritten to not have a level cap and differentiate Dispel and Greater Dispel some other way. Like a bonus to dispel checks or something.

Edit: I just now realized these will never be rewritten. Does Dispel Magic work different in 4th. Ima check how they work in Pathfinder.

[Runestar]

Chain dispel caps at +25. Past that, spellcasters have to fall back on epic spellcasting. But yeah, monsters are pretty much shafted.:smalleek:

[The Cat Goddess]

If you want to be really mean... give him the Mettle class ability. Evasion for Will & Fortitude partials? Yes please.

Easiest way to get it? Hexblade 3. Second easiest way to get it? Pious Templar 1 (though not always easy to justify).

I don't know of any other class that gets it... though you could make an argument for Paladins & Monks getting it.

[Kaiyanwang]

Edit: I just now realized these will never be rewritten. Does Dispel Magic work different in 4th. Ima check how they work in Pathfinder.

4th edition has a different concept of magic.

Regarding pathfinder, consider that there the level cap of dispel magic has been removed. Just pimp someway the caster level of the mooks and you are done.

And, OP: remember that Atropals are abominations, monster made with a simple guideline "this monster is made to scare to death your party of epic PCs". Reread their entry in ELH.

Just adjust him with additional immunities.

Negation of Life (ex): Atropals are immune to Conjuration (healing) and positive energy effects.
You could even throw in some other emenation life consuming effect, just for the lulz.

[Doppelganger]

The difficulty I have with the scenario is: our 2 clerics with Mass Heals can dish out 500 dmg (250 if makes both saves) PER ROUND to this BBEB who is meant to make them cower in fear. That ends the battle quickly. I learned this with the demilich I threw at them earlier.


How did this work? Demilichs are immune to magic, except for three spells (which I can't remember, but are all like level 4) and can harm, greater dispell, and fly at will. Heal is a spell, thus it does not affect demilichs. And it can fly an arbitrary distance up, dispell any flight spells until it rolls a critical, and harm itself for basicaly full HP every round. And hit the characters in the face with and D4 negative levels/insta kill every round. (they're perhapse a tad bit unbalanced)