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View Full Version : [3.5] Psychic Rogue Powers- advice needed



Yorrin
2010-05-14, 09:35 PM
So, I'm building a psychic rogue for an upcoming campaign. Rolled great stats (17,17,16,15,14,14) and I don't want to waste them. I was wondering if there are any good PrCs out there that will help me not suck.

I realize that Psychic Rogue is not at all an powerful start to a build, but nobody else in my group has any sense of optimization, so I'm not worried about lagging behind in power (a straight psychic warrior played intelligently would awe some of them). That being said- I don't do psionics enough to have any idea of what's considered "good." I'm familiar with Illithid Slayer for psionic gishes, but that's not really my thing. I was looking at Crystal Master online, and liked that- but I don't know if it's a trap. I've also considered a two level dip in soulknife to go soulbow, but the lack of manifester progression made me a bit nervous.

I looked though XPH and CPsi, and didn't really spot anything that caught my fancy. Where else might I find something useful? And what specifically does the playground recommend?

No homebrew, but anything else goes. Thanks in advance for your wonderful advice.

EDIT: Alignment is true N, unless someone persuades me otherwise for some reason. Also- which powers are suggested for a Psychic Rogue?

EDIT AGAIN: For those of you new to the party, I've pretty much decided against a PrC and I'm just looking for advice on powers to pick.

Yorrin
2010-05-14, 10:46 PM
Nothing? Really?

So, my google-fu has also added Cognition Thief from PGtF to my list of things to consider. Thoughts on that?

EDIT: I might also be persuaded into Elocater, if it was any good...

Pluto
2010-05-14, 11:08 PM
Psychic Rogue means lots of skills, medium BA and full power progression.
That's not something that any prestige class I know of can match.

Most Psionic Skillmonkey classes (elocator, shadowmind, cognition thief) are designed to turn Psion/Rogues into viable characters, and they tend to lose a lot of ML and gain the skills and class abilities of a half-assed Rogue. In the Psychic Rogue's case, that's Lose/Lose.

Psychic Assassin is the only printed PsyRogue PrC I'd consider. The lost ML and skills make it a weaker choice than straight PR, but Mind Cripple is just mean.
scratch that. for some reason I thought Mind Cripple was exclusive to the psychic assassin

Another option could be to turn Unseen Seer (CM) into a Psionic Class. It's an easy transition (replace all instances of "Divination" with "Clairsentience") and has some decent benefits: increase Clairsentience ML, add some extra powers known. I'm still not sure I'd take it over Psychic Rogue, but it could be another option that doesn't completely suck.

edit:
Crystal Master isn't bad for a straight-classed Psion, but with a Psychic Rogue, you're going to want to make lots of successful attack rolls and use your Psionic focus for things like Link power. CM doesn't really help with that. And it costs skills and useful PsyRogue abilities.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-15, 01:24 AM
I would take Psychic Rogue to at least the 11th level for Mind Cripple, the only reason to ever take the class IMO. A better route would be to use Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5+, for which the best entry would probably be either Rogue 1/ Psion 4 or Rogue 4/ Psion 1 with Practiced Manifester, and in either case you could/should finish the build with nine or ten levels of either (Illithid) Slayer or Shadowmind in Complete Adventurer. A reasonable DM may be willing to waive the evil alignment and 'special' prerequisites of (Psychic) Assassin in exchange for removing the Death Attack class feature.

A Rogue 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9 with Practiced Manifester will only be one level behind on his manifester level. At level 17 with Overchannel you could use an augmented Temporal Acceleration, study an enemy for the three rounds of apparent time, and when it ends deliver a death attack all during the surprise round.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-15, 01:39 AM
If you're trying to max Sneak attack damage, it's useful for a 1 level dip.

gorfnab
2010-05-15, 12:52 PM
Ebon Saint (Complete Psionics) could be of some use depending on your campaign. For feats Craven (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craven) is always nice for any rogue build.

Yorrin
2010-05-15, 07:55 PM
Sorry for not providing feedback sooner- I've been driving all day (college just got out for the summer).

From what I'm hearing prestige classing is a bad idea, especially since the DM wont waive the evil alignment restriction on Psychic Assassin. That's fine, I just wanted to see if there was something obvious here I was missing.

I've never been a big fan of sneak attack- when I roll a normal rogue I always go with the Feat ACF from UA. While I couldnt get that variant past the DM on a psychic rogue, I'll be looking to trade as many of them in as possible with other ACFs. That being said, Craven looks like a great idea if I can't trade them all out.

Any advice of powers to take?

Draz74
2010-05-16, 01:12 AM
Elocator is a fun combo with Psychic Rogue. That said, it's also a perfectly decent class (especially in an unoptimized party) to stick with with no PrCs.

What powers you want will depend strongly on which powers are covered by your skills. You don't want Psionic Knock if you have great Open Lock anyway, or Chameleon (the power) if you have great Hide anyway.

gorfnab
2010-05-16, 01:56 AM
Here are my suggestions for Powers:
1st level. Dimensional Pocket, Control Light, Entangling Ectoplasm (Far Hand or Force Screen may be another option)
2nd. Animal Affinity, Control Sound, Levitate Psionic (Object Reading or Cloud Mind)
3rd. Body Adjustment, Hustle, Concealing Amorpha Greater (or Mental Barrier)
4th. Dimension Door Psionic, Freedom of Movement Psionic, Wall of Ectoplasm (or Telekinetic Maneuver)
5th. True Seeing Psionic, Remote Viewing, Adapt Body (or Retrieve)

For magic items look into Ring of the Darkhidden (pairs nicely with Control Light), Rogue's Vest, and Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

Another feat to look into is Darkstalker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Darkstalker) (pairs very nicely with Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis).

Yorrin
2010-05-16, 08:31 AM
Here are my suggestions for Powers:
1st level. Dimensional Pocket, Control Light, Entangling Ectoplasm (Far Hand or Force Screen may be another option)
2nd. Animal Affinity, Control Sound, Levitate Psionic (Object Reading or Cloud Mind)
3rd. Body Adjustment, Hustle, Concealing Amorpha Greater (or Mental Barrier)
4th. Dimension Door Psionic, Freedom of Movement Psionic, Wall of Ectoplasm (or Telekinetic Maneuver)
5th. True Seeing Psionic, Remote Viewing, Adapt Body (or Retrieve)

For magic items look into Ring of the Darkhidden (pairs nicely with Control Light), Rogue's Vest, and Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis.

Another feat to look into is Darkstalker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Darkstalker) (pairs very nicely with Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis).

Good suggestions! Thanks much. I used this to modify the list I had come up with already (for example- I didn't even look at Animal Affinity before- since I figured it was some sort of lame Wild Empathy knockoff...).

He's more social than stealthy, so I'm not too concerned with being good at Hide. Good suggestions, though, if I want to do a stealth-based version in the future.

Here's what I'm thinking right now:
1- Force Screen, Float(RP purposes), Entangling Ectoplasm
2- Psionic Levitate, Object Reading, Animal Affinity
3- Body Adjustment, Hustle, Mental Barrier
4- Psionic Dimension Door, Telekinetic Maneuver, Psionic Freedom of Movement
5- Adapt Body, Psionic True Seeing, Remote Viewing

Between Force Screen, Mental Barrier, and Inertial Armor I should have a fantastic AC sans-equipment. Now I just need to figure out feats.

Heliomance
2010-05-16, 08:40 AM
Compression is lovely.

Yorrin
2010-05-16, 09:02 AM
Compression is lovely.

I feel like it should be, but I can't tell why. Care to explain?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-16, 09:07 AM
I feel like it should be, but I can't tell why. Care to explain?

Compression makes you smaller, smaller character get big hide modifiers....

Greenish
2010-05-16, 09:09 AM
I feel like it should be, but I can't tell why. Care to explain?+1 to hit and AC, +2 dex, +4 hide and move silently.

I'm not a huge fan, personally.

Heliomance
2010-05-16, 09:56 AM
It can take you down two size categories. That's +2 to hit and AC, +4 Dex, +8 hide.

Yorrin
2010-05-16, 10:00 AM
It's almost enough to make me want to go with a bow instead of a rapier. Almost.

lsfreak
2010-05-16, 01:24 PM
It can take you down two size categories. That's +2 to hit and AC, +4 Dex, +8 hide.

The biggest problem is how your DM interprets 'vital spot.' Is it an organ, or can you stab someone's heel and get sneak attack too. I believe RAW leans more towards 'organs' (undead don't get it despite having weak spots).

Yorrin
2010-05-16, 01:54 PM
The biggest problem is how your DM interprets 'vital spot.' Is it an organ, or can you stab someone's heel and get sneak attack too. I believe RAW leans more towards 'organs' (undead don't get it despite having weak spots).

I fail to see how this is relevant to what you quoted...
and the DM goes by pure mechanics and no fluff when it comes to sneak attacks...

lsfreak
2010-05-16, 05:08 PM
I fail to see how this is relevant to what you quoted...


If you use Compression and can now no longer reach above someone's knees, you may completely lose your ability to sneak attack. Which as someone built at least partially around sneak attacking, is not something you want. Sure, you'll be great at hiding and not being hit, but you can't do anything on the offensive with melee weapons.


and the DM goes by pure mechanics and no fluff when it comes to sneak attacks...
Even if your DM is okay with sneak attacking at small size, there's other in-combat things you need to consider. Tiny or smaller creatures must enter an opponents square to attack (provoking AoO's), and are unable to flank (a main source of sneak attack). There are ways around this (Underfoot Combat + Confound the Big Folk from RotW), but personally I find rogue builds feat-intensive enough.

Basically what I'm saying is, Compression down to Small size can be good in combat, smaller than that is out-of-combat only without the supporting feats. And possibly not worth one of your known powers.

For feats, TWF chain, Weapon Finesse, and Craven (Champions of Ruin). If your group is low-optimization, Craven might be a bit too powerful. Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) is very good for your 9th/12th level feat, making you very hard to detect.

Shadow Blade is very good, but getting it requires either three feats (eww) or a level in Swordsage + one feat. A level in swordsage nets you swift-action greater invis for a round, easier flanking, Weapon Focus, a few other maneuvers, and qualifies you for Shadow Blade. Depending on your DM's reading of the first stance for ToB characters, delaying that till 9th level gets you Assassin's Stance instead, plus access to better maneuvers.

Yorrin
2010-05-16, 05:58 PM
I see what you were trying to say. I could type out a massive paragraph of explanation, but the short story: I'm not taking Compression so it doesn't matter.

I've never been a fan of the Spiked Chain. I know it's powerful, I just find it... distasteful. But Craven is entirely appropriate, and will be taken. As already mentioned- I'm not interested in stealth, but I'm aware of Darkstalker as an option. One I won't take on this build, but I've used it very well in the past.

On one of the earlier versions of this build I had Shadow Blade, but I dropped it because it wasn't actually giving me that much: I decided to just go Str instead of Dex for combat due to a lack of need for Dex-based skills.

lsfreak
2010-05-16, 06:05 PM
I've never been a fan of the Spiked Chain.

Actually I meant the feat chain TWF -> ITWF -> GTWF. Sounds like you may or may not be TWF'ing though, I couldn't tell for sure.

I really can't see why you wouldn't like sneak attack, considering it's a rogue's entire source of damage.