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Sir_Chivalry
2010-05-14, 10:39 PM
Simply put, the thread title. Why in DnD are there evil gods? We all play with them, use their clerics and blackguards, but why are there evil gods?

A system in which there wasn't dualistic gods but instead all gods were good or at least prosperous to society could work fine. Archdevils and demon princes and elder evils could just as easily fill in the whole left by the absense of evil gods.

Of course, standard Greyhawk and FR and Eberron are great and fine, and they work very well, but I mean what is the need for evil gods?

Yukitsu
2010-05-14, 10:41 PM
Because a setting needs only a few allies and good guys to base the story around, but you can never have too many villains.

Drakevarg
2010-05-14, 10:41 PM
Why is there a need for good gods? For monks? For vampires? For elemental planes?

Because DnD is a huge boiling pot of every fantasy trope ever, and if WotC didn't add it, someone else would homebrew it.

There are evil gods because somebody WANTED evil gods. Simple as that.

Ozymandias9
2010-05-14, 10:52 PM
To me at least, it seems likely that it's a result of the fact that the kind of heroic fantasy that is a mainstay in D&D and related games is adapted thematically from multiple sources. Most generally, this can be seen as adaptation of heroic epic through more modern fantasy tropes. The former is almost universally polytheistic, but the gods are neither inherently good or evil. The later, however, tends to put it through the lens of moral dichotomy more common to modern monotheistic religion and philosophy.

The result then is polytheistic dualism, which brings in the traditions of the polytheistic tales that are the ultimate source of many of the concepts in heroic fiction but sets the philosophical tone in a context more easily digestible to a modern western audience, who likely grew up in a society where moral philosophy was derived heavily from monotheism and duality.

Scoot
2010-05-14, 11:01 PM
And the Blackguard asks his mate, "Why are there good gods? We'd get along just find with out them, just outsource their jobs to some solar".

The question confuses me. :smallconfused:

Agreed with Psycho.

krossbow
2010-05-14, 11:14 PM
To my knowledge, there are evil Gods because AO is a giant Prick of Neutrality, who regularly kicks the good gods in the Balls to insure balance.



And anyone who DOESN'T get with the program and play nice with evil gets put on trial.

The Shadowmind
2010-05-14, 11:18 PM
Aren't there evil gods because good isn't a requirement to be a god, and because of that anyone cunning or powerful enough could potentially become a god?

Doc Roc
2010-05-14, 11:24 PM
Because someone has to make sure that Mind Rape stays in circulation, so that the forces of good can use it but claim they never saw this spell before and have no idea how it got in their book, Officier Movanic.

Gensh
2010-05-14, 11:29 PM
There are evil gods simply because otherwise the cosmos just doesn't work. Evil in the real world is really more of choosing desire over the well-being of fellow man, but in D&D, Evil is a choice that defines one's entire lifestyle. Since gods gain power from prayer and more than a few people would worship gods of such cruel things as slaughter in order to avoid suffering from them personally, the outsiders presiding over such concepts would become gods. On the other hand, Evil has to be a compelling choice. Fiends are by their nature failures, therefore, there is no reason to choose to be an evil cleric or such over a good one, as it would provide less power, and a fast track to power is often the source of such characters in fiction. On the third hand, "Elder Evil" is a silly name because most are little more than beings whose mentalities are so inherently different than our own that we cannot understand that they destroy our reality because it is literally killing them.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-05-14, 11:31 PM
There are evil gods because in a game of high fantasy, which is about good vs. evil, it's only logical that the good gods would need an opposition to them. As for elder evils and archdevils, I suppose that could work, but they would need to be able to provide clerics with spells or else the game is ruined, since clerics do get evil specific spells such as Desecrate, ect....

Also, only limiting it to archdevils and elder beings means lawful evil clerics are extremely limited on domains unless you decide to break canon and make a crapload of archdevils. I mean, The Abyss has a nearly infinite number of archdemons while the Bator only gets nine. Yeah...the poor lawful evil cleric will usually be stuck with a very limited domain selection unless you either give the lords of the nine more then three domains each or break canon and create more archdevils. I suppose if you did not want to break canon and expand domains you could create archdevils who where kicked out of Bator during the war and thus have created their own kingdoms. All of this also applies to Neutral Evil clerics too, since there is like almost no non-god, neutral evil patrons.

But with some homebrewing, the idea actually may be interesting and would be somewhat noris-esc where the gods are generally good and united against a non-god threat of great power(In the Norris case it was those giants, in D&Ds case it would be the archdevils ect...)

However, if you want a really interesting take on the gods thing, you could go a whole new route and make the mythology christian-esc. You have only one god who is a good alignment and the other D&D gods become "saints" that clerics can draw on for power. The hells and such would be the force that opposes the one creator god and tries to blight the world with sin and evil.

Pluto
2010-05-14, 11:44 PM
To get the Jack Chick crowd up in arms.

Jane_Smith
2010-05-14, 11:52 PM
Demons currupt and devour (most) souls, or turn them into new demons. They only care about gluttony of said souls.

Devils lol at and destroy evil souls, being fallen angels with the soul purpose of destroying, enslaving, etc all evil... The fact they try to get good people to do currupt acts just to nom their souls immediately afterwords is evidence of this.

As such, neither of these make decent, viable, long-term spiritual choices for evil characters.

Evil gods give evil people a choice demons and devils dont - preservation. "Join me, and be saved while the world burns." kinda them usually. Hmm, be devoured and crapped out as a imp, utterly destroyed, or serve a powerful dark lord for all eternity? Choice is simple to some people. Others try to delude themselves that demons and devils wont nom their souls if they help them. History has proven this, in many settings, to be a big fat illusion on the part of madman looking for last-chance desperate power drives or power trips.

Lets face it, even some evil people care about what happens to their not-quite immortal soul in a game where souls are a proven-to-exsist thing, and not just some kinda invisible faith-based thing. My 2 cents on it.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-15, 12:05 AM
Because not everyone wants to be a goody two-shoes and neutrality doesn't pay as well.

obnoxious
sig

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 12:08 AM
Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool.

Careful of the piranhas. They bite.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-15, 12:22 AM
Welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool.

Careful of the piranhas. They bite.

And level drain.

obnoxious
sig

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-05-15, 12:33 AM
I thought it was mainly so they'd have a reason for all those Temples of Doom that PCs get to explore, killing all the cultists and taking their swag, possibly while saving the local princess from being made into a virgin sacrifice.

What Would Conan Do?

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 12:34 AM
When I designed by god of tyranny I decided to have him sell himself differently. So he sells his image the same way many historical and fictional tyrants have.

The ends justify the means, For protection, order and security someall freedoms must be sacrificed. A historical example would be the people of Germany voted to suspend their democratic government and make Hitler a dictator.

He and his church simply argue the world is a place of chaos, destruction and death and only the iron hand of tyranny can bring lasting order, peace and prosperity to the land.

His faith also does not practice sapient "sacrifice".[creatures with an intelligence score above that of an animal or animals for that matter] in the traditional sense, your either killing your own faithful or sending up a flare for every crusading adventurer to come and cleanse you out.
The churches that practice human sacrifice wouldn't be allowed to set up shop in most cities.

But the god of tyranny is crafty and found away to have his cake and eat it to. His church does execute criminals and other betrayers of the law who are under sentience of death. They make a big public show if it, give speeches about how justice must be done and betrayers of the law must be punished etc etc. Often publicly to serve as an example to others.

He teaches that an effective tyrant does not just make his people fear him, no that is not enough. A good tyrant makes his people fear going without him more.
If the people fear you they will be reluctant to take up arms against you at least for awhile.

But If the people fear without you more if you make them believe that only you can protect them from a far greater threat. They just might take up arms to defend you.

Godskook
2010-05-15, 12:35 AM
Gods come in a few forms:

-The originals - OK, here, you got me, I'm not sure why there's evil original gods. Probably weren't, but I don't know for sure.

-The god-children - Tiamat is the proper example, being the daughter of Io. Evil for the same reason that anyone can be evil: Free will exists.

-The 'raised' - Vecna, for example. Guys who attain god-hood through some means after attaining alignment. If you can accept an evil wizard, you can accept Vecna, the evil wizard that Made It(C).

JadedDM
2010-05-15, 12:43 AM
Actually, in my current campaign world, there is only one god, and he is Lawful Good.

But it's not the only religion. There's Primalism, which is basically worship of nature itself (so druids, basically). For the evil clerics, there's Occultism, which is basically demon-worship.

So it can be done.

ghost_warlock
2010-05-15, 01:06 AM
Why are there gods at all? "Divine" magic worked just fine in Dark Sun with life force druids and elemental clerics (and, also, dragon-king templars).

Morithias
2010-05-15, 01:09 AM
It probably has something to do with the huge amount of 'evil' gods in religious texts from the ancient civilizations. Even though I'm pretty sure most of those gods are just older good gods being called evil when the new guys took over, that's probably where it came from.

Besides, it just makes for good stories and funny tropes. "Did you just punch out Cthulthu" anyone? (Yes I know I probably spelled the name wrong, I can never get it).

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 01:14 AM
Why are there gods at all? "Divine" magic worked just fine in Dark Sun with life force druids and elemental clerics (and, also, dragon-king templars).

No but the entire planet its self was !@#$ up. Divine magic may not need gods but the planets themselves might benefit from their presence.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 01:17 AM
I thought it was mainly so they'd have a reason for all those Temples of Doom that PCs get to explore, killing all the cultists and taking their swag, possibly while saving the local princess from being made into a virgin sacrifice.

What Would Conan Do?He would seek to invalidate the princess's position as a suitable sacrifice, that's what. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-15, 01:17 AM
There's a difference between an Evil god and a Demon or Devil than mere power.

An Evil god works to benefit their congregation, even if the ultimate goal of that congregation is self-aggrandizement.

In other words, they can grasp the bigger picture better.

Case in point: Lawful Evil Hextor can be a perfectly viable choice of object of worship in a very harsh setting where you need an autocrat with ultimate rule just for everyone, as a whole, to survive. Someone's got to make the tough choices, who gets to starve when there isn't enough food, who gets to be on the front line and get slaughtered by the bandits to give the rest of the group enough time to rally and ultimately save the majority... that kind of thing.

And let's look at Vecna. Sure, as evil as you get, but the followers can and do regularly get access to knowledge which no one else gets their hands on, because they are not hampered by morality or ethics when it comes to getting that knowledge.

Worshiping an evil diety also doesn't mean you become their plaything when you die, either. You can end up getting rewards in the Afterlife, although very different from those the Good dieties offer.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 01:33 AM
Gods in fantasy are evil just the same as in the real world: bad teachings and bad people.

Also, enforced enslavement to beliefs is enough to power a god's divinity, and it's often easier to make people fear you (when fear is belief enough) than to go through all the work of taking the high but difficult road.

Plus, everyone believes in something, and in D&D, belief is power. 33% of any D&D world (more or less) is Evil, which fuels the same proportion of any given pantheon. And concepts such as natural disasters and undead abominations have their own spheres of influence on the world. Even Good people whisper invocations to dark gods to ward off their power by appeasing them (for the moment) with prayers and sacrifices, lest they be consumed by whatever evil is stalking the farmstead, or the village, or the local hospice.

In the real world, it's all superstition and nonsense. In D&D, it's very real and very dangerous not to appease the dark powers that may or may not have a sentient, driving force behind them; for peasants and lay-folk without the power to lay the beat down on whatever disaster is lurking on the horizon, initial superstition leads to fear, which leads to appeasement, which leads to belief, which leads to worship (no matter how small), which leads to the coalescence of a being who feeds from that worship, which leads to gods.

This seems to be the default in most settings, anyway, though YMMV.

Ganurath
2010-05-15, 01:42 AM
Because Gruumsh buggered Lolth behind Larenthian's back, not even final death can end the ambition of a lich like Vecna, and Heironeous's nature demanded an evil equivolent to combat. Evil deities exist because ascending to godhood takes power, whether it's the power inherent in being the patron of a people like racial deities or the power of ambition and the pursuit of an ideal like an ascended deity. Having an ideal can fit in any alignment, but the extremes of ambition tend toward the darker side of things. While evil deities would have a harder time getting a following, they pop up enough that statistically a few have to stick, even nuts like Erythnul and Tharizdun.

Besides, the alternative means nobody can one-up Asmodeus.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 01:42 AM
A very good explanation for why non-evil folk worship evil gods.

jguy
2010-05-15, 02:29 AM
I like to think that the gods embody concepts of the universe or spring from new ones. Say that there were only good and neutral and they created all the races (and aside from orcs, this is true). If the concept of evil never existed, of greed and corruption when the universe was made, they would spring into being as -soon- as the concept happened.

This has some basis for it too as on of St. Cuthberts origin stories was he was a minor angel who became the God of Law when the concept of Punishment and Law came into being.

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-15, 02:33 AM
Often times in mythology, god's are portrayed as regular people in terms of personality. Of course they have the ability to make your brain assplode on a whim and things like that, all things considered making them very infantile people as they often threw fits when they didn't get their way. Some of them were just rubbed the wrong way, and others had a bad childhood. Regardless, it seems like gods go bad for all the same reasons people do.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-15, 02:39 AM
Real-world polytheistic religions often had evil gods - Loki, Ares, and so on. Why shouldn't D&D, which is inspired by mythology as much as anything else?

Serpentine
2010-05-15, 02:48 AM
A few different perspectives (many no doubt already covered), some mutually exclusive, some not:

- It's a balance thing. Light/dark, up/down, beautiful/ugly, and good/evil.
- Gods are a manifestation of human(oid(ish)) ideals and the like. Some represent "nice" traits and ideals, others represent "not nice" traits and ideals, other represent traits and ideals just taken to their extremes.
....> Human(oid)(ish))s have their own morality, from whatever source, that causes them to categorise some ideals as "good" or "evil". Thus, the deity representing that becomes thus aligned.
- "Good" and "Evil" are just artificially moralised descriptions of a natural real dichotomy, in most cases Positive and Negative (energy). Many of their traits and representation may naturally align to one side or the other of that dichotomy (e.g. "life" and "death"), and so be in turn moralised. Further, more arbitrary, traits are then applied to them, either morilised first or by association. Gods representing those traits are thus aligned.
- Good and Evil do not intrinsically apply to deities. That is, Lolth, for example, is not necessarily Evil. Human(oid)(ish)s just tend to categorise things, and apply these categories to them.
- Deities are "ascended" mortals. Mortals have a morality, and some are evil. The pre-ascension alignment of a deity determines its post-ascension one.
- Like Elementals, Deities are the physical manifestation of particular facets of the universe, except they are manifestations of multiple facets. One of these the Good/Evil dichotemy. There are Evil deities for the same reason there are water elementals.

edit: - Because they're a good source of encounters and adventures.

Spiryt
2010-05-15, 02:48 AM
The real question is IMO:

Why not?

a_humble_lich
2010-05-15, 04:23 AM
I think the big reason "Why not?" is that most real world polytheistic religions do not have "evil" gods. There are often gods who are not nice (like Loki and Ares) but even then it wasn't that they were truly evil, just what they represented wasn't pleasant. These gods worked with the rest of the pantheon. In contrast, most fantasy universes as set up with a conflict between good gods and evil gods. This good/evil dicotomy much more comes from monotheistic ideas.

In most polytheistic religions, the gods are beyond good and evil, they just are: they are to be remembered, they are to worshiped, they are to be respected. But the same god could be both nice and evil. Apollo was the god of the sun and music, also he was the god of plague and disease.

Zen Master
2010-05-15, 04:30 AM
Simply put, the thread title. Why in DnD are there evil gods? We all play with them, use their clerics and blackguards, but why are there evil gods?

A system in which there wasn't dualistic gods but instead all gods were good or at least prosperous to society could work fine. Archdevils and demon princes and elder evils could just as easily fill in the whole left by the absense of evil gods.

Of course, standard Greyhawk and FR and Eberron are great and fine, and they work very well, but I mean what is the need for evil gods?

The opposite is just as true, isn't it? A system with no good gods, but with angels filling the hole left by good gods is exactly as workable. Or not.

Evil gods are there for flavor - and so are the good ones. Otherwise, why have more than one? When both Torm the True and Lathander Morninglord are LG, why are they both there?

Because it's good fun, that's why. And the same goes for Bane and Beshaba (is that her name?!).

Serpentine
2010-05-15, 04:36 AM
Apollo was the god of the sun and music, also he was the god of plague and disease....and, as a consequence, healing and medicine, and also order, and youth, and archery, and prophecy, and poetry, and herds and flocks, and harmony, and colonists, and reason, and beauty, and so on.
Moral of the story: to make a good deity, pile on the portfolios; the more stretched the connections, the more interesting the god :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, I think the idea of "evil" deities is a very modern one. Even the ones "feared" by their worshippers, or that they avoided speaking the name of, and so on, were still valued and considered... useful, I suppose.

FatR
2010-05-15, 04:38 AM
Simply put, the thread title. Why in DnD are there evil gods? We all play with them, use their clerics and blackguards, but why are there evil gods?
"God" sounds more imressive than "archfiend". That and tradition are probably the only reasons. Although they roles are indeed exactly the same. I removed evil gods from my personal campaign, partly to remove this duplication, partly to preventively tone down hopelessness that distinguish settings like FR or Greyhawk, where PCs can't really do much about the overwhelming presense of Evil, except foiling current plots to overrun the rest of the world.

FatR
2010-05-15, 04:40 AM
Evil gods are there for flavor - and so are the good ones. Otherwise, why have more than one? When both Torm the True and Lathander Morninglord are LG, why are they both there?
That's the question that turned more than one FR fan from the setting. Overbloated pantheon is one of the most common complaints about it.

FatR
2010-05-15, 04:51 AM
The real question is IMO:

Why not?
Because the dualistic universe forever locked into the struggle between absolutely overwhelming Powers of Good and Evil, which mortals can't really hope to influence beyond short term is way too grimdark to adequately reflect the generally optimistic fantasy genre, and deprotagonizing towards PCs as well?
It sort of worked for Dragonlance, because Dragonlance was initially written at the time, when gods weren't written to be practically unbeatable and you totally could stab them in the face... but even then the setting had to fundamentally change its nature for heroes to do anything with lasting meaning.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 04:58 AM
I think the big reason "Why not?" is that most real world polytheistic religions do not have "evil" gods. There are often gods who are not nice (like Loki and Ares) but even then it wasn't that they were truly evil, just what they represented wasn't pleasant. These gods worked with the rest of the pantheon. In contrast, most fantasy universes as set up with a conflict between good gods and evil gods. This good/evil dicotomy much more comes from monotheistic ideas.

In most polytheistic religions, the gods are beyond good and evil, they just are: they are to be remembered, they are to worshiped, they are to be respected. But the same god could be both nice and evil. Apollo was the god of the sun and music, also he was the god of plague and disease.

Ah but you forget the Titan's they proceeded the gods and were described as divine beings, I do believe a few of them were directly associated with evil. I also disagree with your ascertain that Loki wasn't associated with evil as he sides with Jötunn during Ragnarock against the Norse Gods.
As figures like Jötunn and Fenir are suppose to oppose the gods of Norse mythology[and be able to harm them] one could consider them deities in D&D terms, they simply aren't labeled as such.

I do know that in the pantheon of the Egyptian gods a few of them were associated with evil such as Asep and Set.

Shademan
2010-05-15, 05:11 AM
Real-world polytheistic religions often had evil gods - Loki, Ares, and so on. Why shouldn't D&D, which is inspired by mythology as much as anything else?

except that they were never portrayed as such. Ares was portrayed as the slughterer and wild combatant, he was just another wargod, like Athena but she stood for orderly fighting. Athena isnt viewed as evil today.
In short, all greek gods where scumbags, maybe except from Hades who did only did one dasdardly evil crime! kidnapping the woman he loved! GASP!

and Loki was more of a chaotic neutral fellow who talked before thought. Sure he would play mean tricks on the other gods but he would often help them out as well. and his siding with the Jotuns (giants) in the last battle (ragnarok) was expected because he was a jotun himself. blood is thicker than water.

Sorry for the mini-essay, but I'm quite a mythology nerd so please forgive me.

EDIT: and I see now that The Humble Lich up there had allready made a excellent post about it. oh well.

The Tygre
2010-05-15, 05:41 AM
Alignment debates? Real world religion? Even Campaign Setting semantics? Wait, hold on;

http://membres.multimania.fr/fredrichung/forum/i%20like%20were%20this%20thread%20is%20going.jpg

Proceed.

Serpentine
2010-05-15, 05:59 AM
Ah but you forget the Titans they proceeded the gods and were described as divine beings, I do believe a few of them were directly associated with evil.No, I don't think so. Destruction and the like, perhaps. But the Golden Age in which everything was good and happy was in classical times considered the era of Saturn, associated with Cronos, the Titan who ate the gods. The Titans did oppose the gods, yes (or vice-versa, perhaps), but opposition to the gods didn't necessarily mean evil. A quick look at Wikipedia didn't unearth any I'd be confident calling evil. Hell, most of them look a lot more Good than the gods themselves.

I also disagree with your ascertain that Loki wasn't associated with evil as he sides with Jötunn during Ragnarock against the Norse Gods.
As figures like Jötunn and Fenir are suppose to oppose the gods of Norse mythology[and be able to harm them] one could consider them deities in D&D terms, they simply aren't labeled as such.Again, opposition does not mean evil. I'm not very familiar with the North mythos, but I do know that Loki often helps the gods, as well.

I do know that in the pantheon of the Egyptian gods a few of them were associated with evil such as Asep and Set.Not really. Set was actually the guardian of Ra against Apep. The only especially Evil thing about him is his feud with Osiris and Horus, but even then, Set and Horus are depicted crowning the Pharaoh together.
Apep is much closer to a properly evil deity, as he did actively oppose Ra, all the gods, light, goodness, and order.
Which brings me to, I think, the crux of it: most of the gods we nowadays tend to describe as "evil" were actually all about chaos. Chaos was the great enemy of civilisation. It was bad, most of the time, but it wasn't, exactly Evil, and it had its place in the universe.
Anyway, main point remains: "evil" divinity was remarkably absent from ancient religion.

Bogardan_Mage
2010-05-15, 06:12 AM
I think the big reason "Why not?" is that most real world polytheistic religions do not have "evil" gods. There are often gods who are not nice (like Loki and Ares) but even then it wasn't that they were truly evil, just what they represented wasn't pleasant. These gods worked with the rest of the pantheon. In contrast, most fantasy universes as set up with a conflict between good gods and evil gods. This good/evil dicotomy much more comes from monotheistic ideas.
By the very same token they didn't have good gods either. So by all means run a campaign without the moral alignment axis, that could be very interesting, but when we're talking about core D&D the deities are going to have to be somewhere on that axis (unless you make them bizarre and alien and Lovecraftian, but again, let's talk about core D&D) and there's absolutely no precedent for deities being universally good (even those classified as "good" in D&D tend to be kind of jerks in the original myths).

The_Snark
2010-05-15, 06:16 AM
I'm pretty sure Archpaladin Zousha had it right. If there were no Serpent God, how could you disrupt his dread rites, slay his high priest, save the sacrificial virgin, and plunder his Forgotten Temple of Blood on the way out? I guess you could loot the temples of Issek, God of Being Kind to Small Children and Beggars, but it's just not the same.

The discussion of historical religions is interesting (albeit unwise), but I don't think it has anything to do with why D&D has evil gods. Early versions of D&D were designed around dungeon crawls; evil temples are a ready supply of dungeons.

Gnaeus
2010-05-15, 07:50 AM
Not really. Set was actually the guardian of Ra against Apep. The only especially Evil thing about him is his feud with Osiris and Horus, but even then, Set and Horus are depicted crowning the Pharaoh together.

But part of the question becomes, "Which Set?" Egyptian religion was widely practiced for longer than Christianity. It was also strongly regionalist, different gods got different treatments in different times and different regions. I think there were certainly some Egyptians who viewed Set as evil. There were certainly many who viewed him as good, leading to pharaohs with names like Seti, and depictions such as the one you mention. This is equally true with most ancient gods. While Ares might be viewed as evil by modern standards, Mars would probably not be (assuming that you view the Greco-Roman pantheon as actually being more or less the same). Viewing them as uniform is roughly as accurate as saying "All Christians throughout history believed the same thing".

As to Set's actual moral stance, after I die, and they weigh my heart, I plan to ask my gods, Bast and Ptah, and see what they have to say about it. Until then we are just speculating.


Anyway, main point remains: "evil" divinity was remarkably absent from ancient religion.

I think that is a significant overstatement. There were certainly dualistic religions before the common era. There were just as certainly religions where the gods as the forces of order commonly opposed demons, which seem godlike in their power.

Roland St. Jude
2010-05-15, 08:27 AM
Sheriff: Locked for review. Please avoid real world religion discussion on this forum.