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View Full Version : Question about a rule I heard a few days ago. 3.5



Mystic Muse
2010-05-15, 03:44 AM
Somebody Told me a few days ago that in 3.5 "It doesn't matter what your bonus is. If you roll a one you automatically fail." in Relation to anything you roll a d20 on. In the case of Initiative this apparently means you automatically go last.

Is this the case and I was simply unaware of it? Or is this a houserule?

Vaynor
2010-05-15, 03:49 AM
False. That is true with attack rolls and saving throws, but with rolls for things like initiative and skills that is not the case. The only reason you go last in initiative is if your roll + modifier is the lowest.

crazedloon
2010-05-15, 03:49 AM
it is partially correct, skill checks and ability checks are the only exceptions to that rule. Initiative is an ability check thus is not an automatic failure

Mystic Muse
2010-05-15, 03:50 AM
Okay, thanks. I was just making sure I wasn't crazy.

Serpentine
2010-05-15, 04:18 AM
Oh, you are. You're just not wrong.

Escheton
2010-05-15, 04:22 AM
two things that do tend to overlap though

QuantumSteve
2010-05-15, 04:27 AM
Attack Rolls and Saving Throws are the only rolls that have automatic hits and misses. Ability Checks, Skill Checks, Level Checks, Turning Checks, Grapple Rolls, Sunder Rolls, etc. do not auto-hit on a 20.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-15, 04:40 AM
Attack Rolls and Saving Throws are the only rolls that have automatic hits and misses. Ability Checks, Skill Checks, Level Checks, Turning Checks, Grapple Rolls, Sunder Rolls, etc. do not auto-hit on a 20.

...What? Rolling to sunder is an attack roll. You're attacking the weapon!

Grapple checks don't auto-fail on a 1, but the touch attack to initiate the grapple does (being an attack).

AvatarZero
2010-05-15, 05:15 AM
That specific rule has a story behind it.

If you look at your character sheet (or just have the rules pretty well memorised) you'll notice that armour class and save DCs start at ten before receiving bonuses or penalties. In an early version of DnD, the idea was that a player whose character was attacked would roll 1d20 and add their AC bonuses to determine their defense. This lets a player under attack feel like they're doing something to defend themselves, but it also slows down the game. The rule was cut for speed. In effect, all DnD characters take 10 on their AC and spell DC rolls.

The Players Roll All The Dice houserule is a look at putting the single remaining die roll on the other side of the equation. Static attack bonuses vs rolled armour checks.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/playersRollAllTheDice.htm

The reason a natural 1 is considered an automatic failure when one of those take 10's is involved is that by removing the extra die roll, some variation was removed. In the current system, if your attack bonus is equal to or higher than an opponent's AC, you're guaranteed to hit them without the natural 1 rule. In the old version, you'd need to have a bonus ten points higher to guarantee success. (If you roll a 1 and they roll a 20, you need a bonus 19+ higher than them.)

Which is why attack rolls and saves fail on a natural one and succeed on a 20, whereas opposed rolls or rolls against fixed difficulty, such as skill checks, don't.

(I don't actually know if that story is true, but it's neat, eh?)

QuantumSteve
2010-05-15, 05:34 AM
...What? Rolling to sunder is an attack roll. You're attacking the weapon!

Grapple checks don't auto-fail on a 1, but the touch attack to initiate the grapple does (being an attack).

Sunder is a weird case, it's an "opposed attack roll" Every other opposed roll is either a skill, ability, or level check (or grapple, another special case). The idea of auto-cornfirming opposed rolls is rather counter intuitive. What happens when both parties roll 20. The defender is making an "attack roll" so on a 20 he automatically... hits? What does he hit?
I suppose you can say the defender can't auto-hit, but why not? Kt's an attack roll.
Or that the attacker's 20 supersedes the defender's, but the only basis for that is that the "attacker" wins ties in most opposed rolls.

Clearly, "opposed attack roll" is a special case that abides by neither rule.