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Kaskos
2010-05-15, 06:41 AM
Hey there,

I know i have had a few says about Druids and whatnot but as its gets closer to me getting my hands on my Druid (who still isnt 100% complete)

I kinda had to know:
a) Is there a best kind of Druid?
Summoning 'Monsters' - Blasting lightning out from the back of the party or - Turning into a bear/crocodile (as i am not allowed a fleshraker) and getting into the thick of it.

And b) Can you break a Druid? I hear people saying its hard to - but i wanna know how NOT to break a druid just in case lol.

This is the only class i have wanted to play for a while and i really dont wanna end up hating it.

Thanks for any replies

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-15, 06:48 AM
How to break a Druid.

Step 1: Play a Druid. Get a class feature as powerful as the party's Fighter right off the bat.

Step 2: Take Natural Spell at level 6. Spend all day as a bear that casts spells.

Step 3: Be a full caster.

It's hard not to break a Druid really. Druids are incredibly broken out of the box.

The Mentalist
2010-05-15, 06:50 AM
Druid 20 is considered a reasonably optimized build, just be sure to get Natural Spell at six and you have three class features that are each more powerful than some entire classes. If you have Faiths of Ebberon toss on some Planar Shepard just for fun.

Some big breaks:
Being a Druid
Get a minor poison for your natural attacks and Venomfire
Planar Shepard and the x10 time plane
Being a Druid
Wilding Clasps
Did I mention being a Druid?

Edit: Go go Ninja Yuki!

PId6
2010-05-15, 06:55 AM
a) Is there a best kind of Druid?
Summoning 'Monsters' - Blasting lightning out from the back of the party or - Turning into a bear/crocodile (as i am not allowed a fleshraker) and getting into the thick of it.
All three at the same time.


And b) Can you break a Druid?
It's hard not to.

Eldariel
2010-05-15, 07:05 AM
Hey there,

I know i have had a few says about Druids and whatnot but as its gets closer to me getting my hands on my Druid (who still isnt 100% complete)

I kinda had to know:
a) Is there a best kind of Druid?
Summoning 'Monsters' - Blasting lightning out from the back of the party or - Turning into a bear/crocodile (as i am not allowed a fleshraker) and getting into the thick of it.

Druid's power comes from the fact that you have Animal Companion (roughly equivalent to an equal level Fighter, lagging a bit behind on higher levels with buffs making up for it), your Wildshape self (again, roughly equivalent to an equal level Fighter) and your spellcasting (not as potent as a Wizard's, but you have plenty of control spells along with some rather economical offensive magic).

The "best" kind of Druid simply uses all of these. As you have spontaneous Summoning, it's something you'll want to master even if it's not what you want to do every time. It's an option; when your prepared spells aren't of much use, summon something. When an opponent you can't really reach is hitting you, summon something to pin it down; maybe Wolves or if it's flying, few Hippogriffs? When you need healing (or magic circles against evil), summon Unicorns. And so on and so forth. Summons are a good strategy, but not your only strategy.

Note that you need few levels for them to be really good as it takes 1 round to summon them and they only last 1 round/level; you don't want to spend 1 round for one attack from a Wolf, but if they last for 5-6 rounds, it's much better. Also, don't forget Rods of Maximize; you can Maximize a Summon-spell (when in Humanoid-form, anyways) for 5 (as opposed to 1d4+1) creatures of 2 levels lower. Then you e.g. buff them with Animal Growth and have fun. Remember the general spellcaster summons:
SNAIV: Unicorn (healer), Yellow Musk Creeper [Fiend Folio] (not caster per ce, but Fort save-or-be-screwed)
SNAVI: Pixie (Dispels & few other spell-likes), Oread [Fiend Folio] (Earthquake, Transmute Rock to Mud, Stone Shape)
SNAVII: Pixie (Otto's Irresistible Dance!)
SNAVIII: Sporebat [Fiend Folio] (Enervation!)

And Elementals have handy special abilities, especialy when they get big. This is a lot of versatility and something Druids have access to spontaneously so it definitely pays to do your homework.


And b) Can you break a Druid? I hear people saying its hard to - but i wanna know how NOT to break a druid just in case lol.

It depends on the context. Out of the box, Druid is stronger than just about any class on low levels, and stays up there for his entire career. So with "poorly optimized" allies, a Druid can easily be overpowering. Holding back with the spells a bit tends to do wonders though, as does just sticking to melee combat with your companion, holding spells in reserve. And buffing everyone (e.g. Barkskin is a fine buff for the whole team) helps. But yeah, a Druid can be a one-man party if he so desires.


This is the only class i have wanted to play for a while and i really dont wanna end up hating it.

Druids are tons of work, but oodles of fun when you've mastered them. As said, there's a lot of options so it pays off to do some work in memorizing some of the more interesting summons for each level (or just writing them down on paper; just check their stats, remember you can opt for more of a lower level alternative and so on), and figuring out the most common Wildshape forms you'll use (early on, Leopard, Deinonychus and depending on sources, simple Eagle or something like Dire Hawk [Races of the Wild]; then Bears and felines, especially Tigers, and so on) along with specialized uses like spying (there are many rather inconspicuous forms you can assume, like simple domestic animals), burrowing (e.g. Badgers can do it) and more specialized brawling (various plants have interesting abilities, Treants break stuff and so on).

Then just figure out your spells: Early on damage spells like Produce Flame are alright since they last for an entire fight and make up for your probably poor physicals. Early and late, Transmute Rock to Mud, Entangle and similar control spells are great, and summoning some Elementals can have similar effects (air elementals' Whirlwind-ability, for example). You'll want buffs, especially Barkskins and Greater Magic Fangs, consistently and then you'll want to pick feats with a focus on brawling (and picking stuff like Multiattack, Power Attack, mayhap Improved Grapple, etc.), or casting (Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Penetration, etc.) or such, in addition to the obvious (Natural Spell, maybe Augment Summoning).


Oh yeah, Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0).

PId6
2010-05-15, 07:13 AM
As a note, if you want to make sure your druid doesn't outshine the party, you can take the shapeshifter ACF from PHB2. It trades your animal companion and wildshape for shapeshifting, which gives you a few specific forms with predefined abilities. They're generally weaker than wildshaping, but they do require a LOT less bookkeeping and bring the druid down to a more reasonable level.

Gnaeus
2010-05-15, 07:18 AM
As a note, if you want to make sure your druid doesn't outshine the party, you can take the shapeshifter ACF from PHB2.

As another note, if you want to make sure your druid doesn't outshine the party, there are easily half a dozen ways to do it without losing your animal companion and most of the versatility of your wildshape.

Kaskos
2010-05-15, 07:31 AM
In this campaign, our most experienced player is the DM so the Uber Cleric wont be around this time.
I obviosuly want to be able to turn the tide in a battle if i have to - but i dont wanna be a one man party.
However, i dont want to go with the PHB2 variant yet tili have at least got to grips with the normal Druid

BobVosh
2010-05-15, 07:33 AM
I saw the thread title, and I luled.

Anyway, here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) is the brilliant gameologist handbook for druids. Just pick and choose.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-15, 07:50 AM
In this campaign, our most experienced player is the DM so the Uber Cleric wont be around this time.
I obviosuly want to be able to turn the tide in a battle if i have to - but i dont wanna be a one man party.
However, i dont want to go with the PHB2 variant yet tili have at least got to grips with the normal Druid

Just because you're a one man party doesn't mean you have to be overt about it. In general, stick to your wild shape, give yourself and your allies a few buffs, and tear stuff up. Your allies won't cry foul.

If you start getting into trouble, you can pull out the rest of your spells and save the rest of the party.

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-15, 07:58 AM
Yeah, it's actually hard NOT to break a Druid. Consider it this way; when I started playing a Druid in my group when they had never had a real Druid before (last guy played a Druid Archer that didn't use Animal Companion and didn't cast spells) I was actually accused of cheating because I was doing so much.

Their BAB is the same as Monks and they get Wildshape, which basically nullifies their MBAB. They have some of the best Battlefield Control spells in the game. Entangle is awesome; even if they save it still does something.

If you want you break a Druid, here's the build:

Gnome Druid 20
Wisdom: 18
Constitution: 20

Feats:
1: Toughness
3: Heavy Armor Proficiency
6: Natural Spell
9: Multi-attack
12: Toughness
15: Toughness
18: Toughness

Put skills into Craft and use Wood Warp and Iron Wood to make Wooden Fullplate Armor that is meant to fit a Dire Bear. Wildshape, have your friends help you put it on. You can be Core only against a full splatbook Fighter or ToB class and still utterly destroy them. Ohh, and you are STILL a full caster.

Going outside of Core, Spellbound Companion gives you a 30 foot range on Share Spell meaning that you can fallback while Woofer still is a juggernaut. If your DM allows you, a Fleshraker is the best Animal Companion in the game. Good AC, awesome attack, and a super nasty poison to boot. Get his ability focus: poison, Virulent Poison, and Venomfire and watch the fighter cry. Remember, Order of the Stick was not joking here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

Runestar
2010-05-15, 08:01 AM
The shapeshift variant serves dual purpose. It not only balances wildshape, but also resolves the problem of it being too confusing to use. Previously, druids had every incentive to dump their physical stats, and determining the stats of the animal they were turning into in the midst of combat was a real game-stopper (since wildshape references alternate form, so you have to tediously work out just what gets granted and what doesn't).

To this day, I am pretty sure no one really knows just how wildshape and polymorph are supposed to work. :smallamused:

Now, shapeshift simply improves your base stats (so you still have an incentive to raise your str and dex), and no longer have to reference any outside splatbooks, so it is fairly easy and straightforward to use.

Nor do you have to agonize over which of the 100 animals is the best to change into. :smallbiggrin:

Kaskos
2010-05-15, 08:08 AM
What is the easiest way to work out what you are allowed as animal companions and wildshape forms?

I mean is Wildshape initially ANY animal type that is small or Medium?

and how can i work out what animal i am allowed at each level?
Example - Level 6 (i am not allowed a fleshraker) I wouldnt mind a Tiger - can i have one?
If so, how come?

Gorbash
2010-05-15, 08:10 AM
I saw the thread title, and I luled.

Anyway, here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) is the brilliant gameologist handbook for druids. Just pick and choose.

Try reading the original post first, at least...

Gnaeus
2010-05-15, 08:12 AM
The shapeshift variant serves dual purpose. It not only balances wildshape, .....
Nor do you have to agonize over which of the 100 animals is the best to change into. :smallbiggrin:

1. Picking animal forms isn't nearly as hard as the shapeshift crowd likes to pretend. It is easy to pick your favorite 3-6 forms, stat them up, and use them for daily use while keeping the ability to take another form if you realize there is something in particular you need. It is easy to have the discussion of what works in wildshape privately, with your DM, and not spend any game time. It is even easier to take a different WS nerf, like Pathfinders, which specifically spells out which abilities you get at which points.

2. If the ability to dump your physical stats or ease of decision making were REALLY the point behind shapeshift, it wouldn't take away your animal companion. The point behind shapeshift is to nerf the druid. Maybe that is even a good idea, but there are other nerfs available which are less limiting to your options.



I mean is Wildshape initially ANY animal type that is small or Medium?

and how can i work out what animal i am allowed at each level?
Example - Level 6 (i am not allowed a fleshraker) I wouldnt mind a Tiger - can i have one?
If so, how come?

The 2 limiting factors are size and hit dice (which can't be over your druid level). Tigers exceed both. You could be a smaller great cat like leopard (medium, 3-4 hd), and ask your DM to flavor it as a young tiger.

The easiest way is to look in one of the druid guides that make AC suggestions and stat up one to three forms (I like using index cards for this). Later, when you have time, look through monster manuals available under Animal (also Dire Animal and Dinosaur).

Kaskos
2010-05-15, 08:26 AM
Well that sucks - i think Leopard played as a young tiger would be good from a play perspective.

What kinda HD am i looking at for Tiger?
(I havent got my MM on me to check unfortunately)

Pluto
2010-05-15, 08:28 AM
1. Picking animal forms isn't nearly as hard as the shapeshift crowd likes to pretend. It is easy to pick your favorite 3-6 forms, stat them up, and use them for daily use while keeping the ability to take another form if you realize there is something in particular you need. It is easy to have the discussion of what works in wildshape privately, with your DM, and not spend any game time. It is even easier to take a different WS nerf, like Pathfinders, which specifically spells out which abilities you get at which points.
Just speaking for myself here:

I could, and I could stat out the second character that is the AC and I could track its HP and condition status and all the effects that are currently active on it. That doesn't mean I like to. Shapeshift is the only way I can tolerate playing a Druid (well, it and the Spontaneous Druid variant). Paperwork and number-tracking are not things I like to spend a lot of time on. It's still a 3/4 BA full-caster with an interesting spell list, a strong skills list and a build-in natural attack routine, so it's hard to be sore about the loss of an AC or WS.

Gnaeus
2010-05-15, 08:31 AM
Well that sucks - i think Leopard played as a young tiger would be good from a play perspective.

What kinda HD am i looking at for Tiger?
(I havent got my MM on me to check unfortunately)

It is only 6 HD (I just looked it up) but you need large wildshape, which Is level 8.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-15, 08:34 AM
Well that sucks - i think Leopard played as a young tiger would be good from a play perspective.

What kinda HD am i looking at for Tiger?
(I havent got my MM on me to check unfortunately)

Why would you need a copy of the Monster Manual when you have an Internet connection? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm)

Kaskos
2010-05-15, 08:34 AM
It is only 6 HD (I just looked it up) but you need large wildshape, which Is level 8.

Ahhh - so a couple of levels to go yet
So if DM will allow, i think a 'young' tiger will be allowed with stats etc of a leopard. Nice idea, thanks


(is starting at 6 because my Ranger wasnt part of the original party and had the option to leave if he wanted and i hated him, so i did)

Kaskos
2010-05-15, 08:35 AM
Why would you need a copy of the Monster Manual when you have an Internet connection? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm)

When i typed in Tiger all o managed tog et was a list of the animals in the MM, not the actual information no the Tiger i was after :smallfrown:

Now i see i was looking in the wrong place

Gnaeus
2010-05-15, 08:41 AM
Just speaking for myself here:

I could, and I could stat out the second character that is the AC and I could track its HP and condition status and all the effects that are currently active on it. That doesn't mean I like to. Shapeshift is the only way I can tolerate playing a Druid (well, it and the Spontaneous Druid variant). Paperwork and number-tracking are not things I like to spend a lot of time on. It's still a 3/4 BA full-caster with an interesting spell list, a strong skills list and a build-in natural attack routine, so it's hard to be sore about the loss of an AC or WS.

Fair enough. Speaking for myself I like WS not for the power but for the versatility. I couldn't tolerate playing a shapeshift druid unless they included burrowing, climbing and aquatic forms at least.

Runestar
2010-05-15, 08:52 AM
1. Picking animal forms isn't nearly as hard as the shapeshift crowd likes to pretend. It is easy to pick your favorite 3-6 forms, stat them up, and use them for daily use while keeping the ability to take another form if you realize there is something in particular you need. It is easy to have the discussion of what works in wildshape privately, with your DM, and not spend any game time. It is even easier to take a different WS nerf, like Pathfinders, which specifically spells out which abilities you get at which points.

Which is still a fair amount of prep work. I admit I was exaggerating about the "100 animals to choose from" part, but I still feel shapeshift is the most intuitive to use. You don't even need to waste any time haggling with your DM. You don't have to prepare 6 separate stat blocks and best of all, you don't have to waste your DM's time.


2. If the ability to dump your physical stats or ease of decision making were REALLY the point behind shapeshift, it wouldn't take away your animal companion. The point behind shapeshift is to nerf the druid. Maybe that is even a good idea, but there are other nerfs available which are less limiting to your options.

I would say it is both. The druid's arsenal was powerful and it slowed down the game at the same time. So it was simply a matter of finding a solution which tackled both simultaneously. Rather than addressing one while ignoring the other. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone?

The animal companion is undeniably strong, but it, together with summons (which a druid can cast spontaneously) can also make him longer to run (because you are juggling 3-5 npcs at any one time). This is why PHB2 recommended trading away spontaneously summoning for fast healing and did away with animal companion. True, a druid can still prep summon spells, but their underlying intention - for summons to be a less integral part of combat, is crystal clear for all to see.

The 3rd problem isn't widely publicised (though the designers did hint on it briefly in rules compendium). Basically, the open-ended nature of wildshape meant that it would only become more powerful with the release of every new splatbook which added new animals (though nowhere are bad as polymorph and shapechange).

deuxhero
2010-05-15, 08:55 AM
And b) Can you break a Druid? I hear people saying its hard to - but i wanna know how NOT to break a druid just in case lol.


Know how in "Knightfall" Bane broke the goddamn Batman's back?

Druids are like that, except that don't become need steroids to do it, and thus don't become a vegetable latter in life.

Gnaeus
2010-05-15, 09:25 AM
You don't have to prepare 6 separate stat blocks and best of all, you don't have to waste your DM's time.

Or you can take the PF nerf, which also saves the DM time later in figuring out whether to ban or nerf polymorph and shapechange.


I would say it is both. The druid's arsenal was powerful and it slowed down the game at the same time. So it was simply a matter of finding a solution which tackled both simultaneously. Rather than addressing one while ignoring the other. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone?

The animal companion is undeniably strong, but it, together with summons (which a druid can cast spontaneously) can also make him longer to run (because you are juggling 3-5 npcs at any one time). This is why PHB2 recommended trading away spontaneously summoning for fast healing and did away with animal companion. True, a druid can still prep summon spells, but their underlying intention - for summons to be a less integral part of combat, is crystal clear for all to see.

Does your PH2 suggest it? Mine only includes it as an ACF. An optional, different way to play the class.

Regardless of whether Shapeshift is better or worse as a system than WS, it has NOTHING to do with animal companion. No one seriously argues that Shapeshift is so much stronger than WS that it justifies taking your animal companion away.

They could of course, have separated the two. Put in "No Animal companion" as an ACF, where the druid could just choose not to have an animal companion (of course, they can anyway). Or they could have been honest and said that they were intentionally nerfing the druid to bring it more into line with melee or for time saving reasons, so that people who took issue with the class could see what they were getting. If time savings was actually the issue, they could have offered the druid some passive benefit for the loss of the animal companion, like a damage bonus or more AC or Hp or mettle or something, that did not take up a lot of extra time in combat.

But they didn't do any of those things. They included it as an alternate feature, thereby suggesting that it was a roughly equal option, then they intentionally nerfed it further by banning the AC. They made it into a trap for the unwary. People who advocate it without pointing out that it is not remotely an equivalent option from a power perspective are furthering that lie.

Finally, shapeshift does not "balance" the druid as you suggest. It brings it more into line with lower tier melee (which could be called "balancing") while weakening it compared with other full casters (which could just as easily be called "unbalancing").

imperialspectre
2010-05-15, 10:46 AM
OP: I can't really answer your question without knowing what the rest of your party looks like. Druids are in an odd place in terms of class power, because they are extremely powerful compared to non-casters, are very strong in any environment that isn't highly optimized, and then drop off dramatically at higher levels of optimization.

So if your party is a Fighter, Monk, and blasting Wizard, you're going to be way more powerful by them just by picking a normal animal companion and wildshaping into a bear - because blasting Wizards are usually almost useless, and because a Fighter and a Monk are dramatically weaker than a druid's animal companion and a druid turned into a bear. Oh, and you're a full caster with some really strong battlefield control options.

If your party is a well-built Barbarian, a Rogue, and a Sorcerer using smart spell selection, the Barbarian will out-damage you most days, the Rogue will be glad to have easy flanking from your animal companion, and the Sorcerer will appreciate the versatility that a free morning re-spec brings to the party.*

If your party is a Ruby Knight Vindicator with a Prestige Paladin dip for Battle Blessing, a Beguiler who skillmonkeys but has a few levels in Shadowcraft Mage too, and a Halruaan Elder who has a wide selection of strong wizard spells and Arcane Thesis: Enervation, you actually might have to work hard just to stay even.

*I used core classes, but this party probably uses a hell of a lot of non-core material for the Barbarian to qualify as "well-built" and the Rogue to have Darkstalker and wands of Gravestrike. Don't take this as a recommendation of the core rules, they suck.

Skaven
2010-05-15, 02:01 PM
For some reason, I read the title and got the funny idea you wanted a ranger or something to teach a perma-wildshaped druid tricks..

Volthawk
2010-05-15, 03:08 PM
Normal Wild Shape is fun. Master of Many Forms is where it gets really crazy. Getting (ex) special qualities, Diminuitive-Gargantuan sizes, and being able to turn into pretty much any type apart from Magical Beast (odd, dunno why though. I mean, you can turn into an Ooze, but not a magical beast?)? Yes please.

Nidogg
2010-05-15, 03:32 PM
Greenbound summoning. Combined with speak with plants ALL your summoned animals can cast wall of thorns and entangle. Oh and they get plant type. Summon several with a single spell and battlefeildcontroll AWAY!

Greenish
2010-05-15, 03:43 PM
Normal Wild Shape is fun. Master of Many Forms is where it gets really crazy. Getting (ex) special qualities, Diminuitive-Gargantuan sizes, and being able to turn into pretty much any type apart from Magical Beast (odd, dunno why though. I mean, you can turn into an Ooze, but not a magical beast?)? Yes please.How about Planar Shepherd? Wish as SLA? Sure, why not.

Volthawk
2010-05-15, 03:43 PM
How about Planar Shepherd? Wish as SLA? Sure, why not.

True. I just have a soft spot for MoMF.

Eldariel
2010-05-15, 03:54 PM
Normal Wild Shape is fun. Master of Many Forms is where it gets really crazy. Getting (ex) special qualities, Diminuitive-Gargantuan sizes, and being able to turn into pretty much any type apart from Magical Beast (odd, dunno why though. I mean, you can turn into an Ooze, but not a magical beast?)? Yes please.

MoMF is good, but Druid is better. Still, I can attest to MoMF being very much fun. It's much more one-dimensional than the Druid though, since Druid simply has so ridiculously many different options and powers.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-15, 04:02 PM
MoMF is also better when you start with Wildshape ranger.

If I'm going to give up wildshape, I generally prefer the swift hunter variant that trades wildshape for monk movement, monk AC, ranger tracking, and ranger favored enemies. Once you hit high levels, shapechange renders wildshape obsolete, and before then, you've still got great movement, spells, and an animal companion.

Nero24200
2010-05-15, 04:03 PM
Not only can you break a druid, a druid is probably the easiest class to break. Without trying to already have an animal companion - I.E something that can go toe-to-toe with enemies and usally has abilities such as Pounce or Grab, meaning there are quite a few scenarios where they can be prefreble to martial characters.

You gain wild-shaping - so if your companion isn't enough, you can hop in as well.

Then you get spells on top of it - granted it's probably the least versitile spell list in core, but its still spells, and up to 9th level ones at that.

I say "easiest to break" because a druid is powerful right out the box. It's possible to break the game with just about any class (and yes, that includes commonly regarded weak ones like Samurai), but some of them require a fair bit of work to do it, some take to it very easily. The druid is one of those "does it very easily" ones. If your players start throwing in cheese such as Planar Shepard it just becomes rocket tag - with only one player having a rocket.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-15, 04:18 PM
For some reason, I read the title and got the funny idea you wanted a ranger or something to teach a perma-wildshaped druid tricks..

Funny, that in turn made me think of the running joke in the WoW community about Hunters taming Druids while in beast form...

Eldariel
2010-05-15, 04:26 PM
Then you get spells on top of it - granted it's probably the least versitile spell list in core, but its still spells, and up to 9th level ones at that.

This is true to a degree, but don't forget that they get spontaneous Summons. That's easily the most versatile spontaneous list out of the Core, able to do literally anything, and very well usually. And the list is still versatile enough, having early Ref SoSs, latter Fort SoDs and SoSs and a number of battlefield morphers, efficient early blasting sorta (they last the entire encounter so when the slots are sparse but most effects are overkills, they're perfect; though that ends around level 4-5).

They don't have that many efficient Will SoXs but other than that, they can cover anything needed, and they have a lot of brute strength spells like Control Winds, Giant Vermin, Animal Growth (Wizards have it too, but Druids are naturally very able to fuel it with Summons and Animal Companion, along with Handle Animal as desired). And of course, they have Animal Growths, Treewalks or whatever and all the generic useful stuff.


Not as good as the Wizard list, but it'll get the job done. Again, Summons are the ace and something one needs to master; it makes you more versatile than Wizard in some situations, which is saying a lot.

pffh
2010-05-15, 04:27 PM
Feats:
1: Toughness
3: Heavy Armor Proficiency
6: Natural Spell
9: Multi-attack
12: Toughness
15: Toughness
18: Toughness

here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

Toughness four times, TOUGHNESS!? ... I'm at loss for words...

Also you don't need heavy armor proficiency just throw the wilder (or what it's called) property on a dragon scale full plate, shift to a form and bamm all the AC of the full plate and none of the disadvantages.

Volthawk
2010-05-15, 04:28 PM
Toughness four times, TOUGHNESS!? ... I'm at loss for words...

Also you don't need heavy armor proficiency just throw the wilder (or what it's called) property on a dragon scale full plate, shift to a form and bamm all the AC of the full plate and none of the disadvantages.

I think it was a way of saying "with a Druid, feat choice doesn't matter. You're just that good."

Prodan
2010-05-15, 04:37 PM
Toughness four times, TOUGHNESS!? ... I'm at loss for words...
Indeed. Not one instance of Skill Focus: Basket Weaving.

pffh
2010-05-15, 04:53 PM
Indeed. Not one instance of Skill Focus: Basket Weaving.

I know. And I think you mean skill focus: profession (basket weaving) :smalltongue:

Prodan
2010-05-15, 05:15 PM
That, sir, is pure and blatant cheese.

BobVosh
2010-05-15, 05:48 PM
Try reading the original post first, at least...

I did. He wanted to make a decent druid in Point A. In point B he wanted to not over dominant, if possible. I laughed "if possible" basically, and gave a guide on a lot of options for druids. It isn't a TO how to break a druid guide, but a guide similar to TLN's batman.



Also needs more cowbelltoughness.

Lord Loss
2010-05-15, 06:16 PM
Not breaking a Druid is like not eating a Toblerone chocolate bar chocolate. You can only do it for so long, generally speaking.

Volthawk
2010-05-15, 06:18 PM
Not breaking a Druid is like not eating a Toblerone chocolate bar chocolate. You can only do it for so long, generally speaking.

NOOOOO!

You made me feel like having Toblerone, and it's freaking midnight!

Thespianus
2010-05-16, 02:16 AM
What if the DM puts his foot down on Natural Spell, basically banning it for balance reasons?

Does that limit the power of the Druid a lot? Or is it just a minor snag to overdominating everything? :)

I've never played a Druid, and never had a Druid in the party, so I'm asking here.

mint
2010-05-16, 05:36 AM
The OP said he doesn't want to end up hating his druid. It is easy to find out how to break a druid so I would like to address how to not hate playing a druid instead.

Prepare a lot. I have been playing a druid weekly in a game that has been going on for a little over a year. During the course of the campaing I often found myself focusing on different aspects at different levels.
Since I hadn't played a druid before, or D&D at all I had to take in silly amounts of information to keep up with summons, wildshape, animal companion and spells. The party was fairly optimized and I wanted to pull my weight.
Once I was up to date on the level, I had to do the book-keeping on the animal companion, keep my spell list updated from all the relevant sources. And finally, keep stat blocks of everything I might want to summon, turn into and a compendium of everything I might want to cast for easy reference, cause looking through say... the spell compendium instead of paying attention at the table is boring.

I like my druid fine at level 16 but over time I evolved to mostly casting, mainly battlefield control. Summoning 5 storm elementals with a maximized SNA is a lot of fun and kind of kick-ass but keeping track of them is exhausting. Whenever I can, I try to summon a single powerful creature instead.
Unless it is absolutely necessary, summoning just makes your turns really long.
Whenever I slacked of with preparation, I'd find myself lacking some important piece of information in the middle of my turn and I really didn't like making everyone wait for me.

So prepare a lot and decide what to focus on so you limit your bookkeeping. Pulling out a new move you've never used before every turn just makes combat drag on and on and on.

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 05:53 AM
NOOOOO!

You made me feel like having Toblerone, and it's freaking midnight!

Hehehehe... Drat. Now I want one.

:biggrin:

Volthawk
2010-05-16, 05:55 AM
Hehehehe... Drat. Now I want one.

:biggrin:

Ah well, I'm alright now. I could go buy some, but I can't be bothered.

Anyway, back on topic...

I have nothing new to say.

Greenish
2010-05-16, 06:17 AM
What if the DM puts his foot down on Natural Spell, basically banning it for balance reasons?

Does that limit the power of the Druid a lot?With Natural Spell, a druid is two fighters and a full caster. Without Natural Spell, a druid is only two fighters or a fighter and a full caster.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-16, 06:20 AM
With Natural Spell, a druid is two fighters and a full caster. Without Natural Spell, a druid is only two fighters or a fighter and a full caster.

Basically, if you ban Natural Spell, the Druid will only ever use wildshape when he's run out of spells to convert into summons that can do anything his wildshape could ever do, plus more.

He's still a full caster who can keep going even when he runs out of spells. Not even Wizards have that luxury.

Gnaeus
2010-05-16, 08:28 AM
What if the DM puts his foot down on Natural Spell, basically banning it for balance reasons?

Does that limit the power of the Druid a lot? Or is it just a minor snag to overdominating everything? :)

I've never played a Druid, and never had a Druid in the party, so I'm asking here.

Here is the problem. Druids DON'T overdominate everything. Only some things.

Levels 1-4 druids probably do beat any other class. An animal companion + a full caster beats pretty much anything at those levels. Banning natural spell doesn't do anything to this equation, because they don't have wildshape.

By level 5 druids are sitting firmly in the tier 1 category. But they aren't clearly in the lead. Wizards, Archivists, Artificers and Clerics are just as strong, often stronger (Sorcerers are just as strong also, although much less versatile). You can't beat down druids to the point where they are not stronger than Barbarians or Rogues, without at the same time making them much weaker than Wizards or Clerics. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to balance classes in a vacuum. There is no single fix to game balance. For uniform balance you need either pages and pages of nerfs and class/spell fixes, or just to ban all the classes outside your favorite tier. TOS, for example, has a long list of bans and fixes (mostly good ones), but I don't think anyone argues that it makes all the classes balanced.

OR, you can see what classes your party wants to play, and balance them against each other.

Ernir
2010-05-16, 09:25 AM
Hmm. Druids are powerful on their own, but broken?

I say they have to go into stuff like Assume Supernatural Ability/Enhance Wildshape/Aberration Wildshape to truly break the game. :smallbiggrin:

aivanther
2010-05-16, 10:08 AM
Psh, planar shepherd with the dream plane is great.

But if you're not in eberron, why gimp yourself? Go for the Far Realms! Yay, infinite time stop and flight! Oh, is it not enough for you? Go pseudo-natural dire polar bear, grapple an opponent, when they enter your bubble dc 20 will or insanity while they have a -1 morale penalty against you. They not insane? Flight up then throw them out of your bubble down onto their allies! Or you could become a thoon infiltrator and take over someone's body! You'd have to argue semantics, since MMV says they're monstrous humanoids, but then in the text says they're really outsiders.

Or you could be mundane and choose a plane like hades where you can be a demon or a devil. Or better yet, Acheron, where you can be anything.

Thespianus
2010-05-16, 12:07 PM
It is INCREDIBLY difficult to balance classes in a vacuum. There is no single fix to game balance. For uniform balance you need either pages and pages of nerfs and class/spell fixes, or just to ban all the classes outside your favorite tier. TOS, for example, has a long list of bans and fixes (mostly good ones), but I don't think anyone argues that it makes all the classes balanced.

I totally agree, and I personally don't see any reason to ban anything. In the games I am part of, I prefer the Rule of Sanity, instead of the Rule of RAW. It might be because my group is fairly mature and we don't play the game to "win", but we have all turned down more CharOp feat selections and stuff, just to keep the game sane. It's all good.

However, I wanted some input on the Druid, if Natural Spell is the one major thing that makes the Druid stronger than the Cleric, or if there are other parts of the equation as well. I got some answers, and I'm happy. :)

</clarification>

Gnaeus
2010-05-16, 01:17 PM
I totally agree, and I personally don't see any reason to ban anything. In the games I am part of, I prefer the Rule of Sanity, instead of the Rule of RAW. It might be because my group is fairly mature and we don't play the game to "win", but we have all turned down more CharOp feat selections and stuff, just to keep the game sane. It's all good.

Mature play, the true balance fix. :smallsmile:


However, I wanted some input on the Druid, if Natural Spell is the one major thing that makes the Druid stronger than the Cleric, or if there are other parts of the equation as well. I got some answers, and I'm happy. :)

Above about level 4, the druid and the cleric are pretty well balanced if played at similar optimization. They are at least close enough that the real deciding factors will be issues like what kind of campaign they are in and which player has the better understanding of tactics and their class powers.