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modi
2010-05-15, 11:08 AM
Hi all, I had a rules question about the Master of Nine from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords from 3.5.

I'm making a swordsage character that I want to PrC into Master of Nine. In the book, it says that the Master of Nine has access to all nine disciplines, but then says that you need to meet the prerequisites of any maneuver you take. In my case, I was looking at some Iron Heart maneuvers, which require a warblade level. What I was wondering is, do your MoN and/or previous initiator levels qualify you for disciplines you couldn't take before, or would you need to obey the level requisites anyway? If they do qualify you, is it just your MoN levels that count? Or all initiator levels? If anyone could help clarify, I'd greatly appreciate it.


Thanks,
-M

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-15, 11:12 AM
Access to a maneuver depends on your class, yes, but no discipline is locked to a base class in the manner you seem to think they are. As soon as you become a Master of Nine, a former sword sage could pick up any White Raven, Devoted Spirit, or Iron Heart maneuver he met the prerequisites for (any maneuver with no prerequisites). These will largely be 1st or 2nd level maneuvers, and perhaps a few stances.

For instance, I'm pretty sure Steel Wind has no prerequisites, so a Mo9 could pick up Steel Wind, and then take Iron Heart Surge (prereq 1 IH maneuver known).

Edit: your Initiator level determines the highest level maneuvers you can learn; any Tome of Battle base class or prestige class adds to your initiator level, while any non-ToB class adds 1/2 level (or 1 level for every 2 such class levels).

Greenish
2010-05-15, 11:13 AM
It is my understanding that you can use ToB prestige classes (except Bloodstorm Blade) to advance the initiator level of one of your base classes. If the PrC opens a new discipline to you, you use the IL you gain from the base class and from the PrC in regards to the maneuvers you can take. Savvy?

[Edit]: Swordsaged by a more coherent answer.

modi
2010-05-15, 11:22 AM
Thanks guys, that clears that up.

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-15, 11:33 AM
I also should note that ToB prestige classes add to your IL in ALL of your classes. A SS 5/Warblade 1/Mo9 5 would have an IL of 10 in swordsage, and 6 in warblade.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 11:53 AM
I also should note that ToB prestige classes add to your IL in ALL of your classes. A SS 5/Warblade 1/Mo9 5 would have an IL of 10 in swordsage, and 6 in warblade.Ah, my bad.

[Edit]: Actually, he would have IL 8 for warblade.

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-15, 12:04 PM
Ah, my bad.

[Edit]: Actually, he would have IL 8 for warblade.

Oops, forgot about the 1/2 IL rule there... :smallredface:

Havelock
2010-05-15, 04:24 PM
Take advantage of what makes the base classes in the book excellent dips:

You add 1/2 level to iniator level, giving you access to mid level manouvers instantly.

My way of doing it would be swordsage 13, crusader 1, warblade 1, Mo9 5. Gives you access to the best 8th and 9th level manouvers.

Personally though, I find it more effective to mix martial classes with rogues or the like, island of blades+sneak attack is a pretty good combo.

Prime32
2010-05-15, 05:27 PM
My way of doing it would be swordsage 13, crusader 1, warblade 1, Mo9 5. Gives you access to the best 8th and 9th level manouversI think you mean swordsage 9/crusader 3/warblade 3/MoN 5

That would get you the following ILs:
Swordsage 17
Crusader 15
Warblade 15
EDIT: You could replace two levels of swordsage with, say, eternal blade and get triple-9s.


Your build would grant ILs of swordsage 19/crusader 13/warblade 13

Douglas
2010-05-15, 06:08 PM
That would get you the following ILs:
Swordsage 17
Crusader 15
Warblade 15
EDIT: You could replace two levels of swordsage with, say, eternal blade and get triple-9s.
You forgot that changing a level from Swordsage to Warblade or Crusader only increases IL by 1/2 for that class. Crusader and Warblade would only be at 14, and you would have significantly delayed your Swordsage progression for it.

Icewraith
2010-05-15, 08:30 PM
Yes, but you will have the single warblade and crusader levels to pick up prerequisite maneuvers and stances for the other 3 disciplines you don't have access to, then use Mo9 to tack the 9th level maneuvers for each discipline onto the swordsage progression.

One thing I'm not clear on, though... could a swordsage enough/mo9 5/ss continuing still have access to all 9 disciplines for future manuevers, or only for the 5 Mo9 levels?

modi
2010-05-16, 03:19 AM
One thing I'm not clear on, though... could a swordsage enough/mo9 5/ss continuing still have access to all 9 disciplines for future manuevers, or only for the 5 Mo9 levels?

Only for the 5 levels, I think.


I'm actually back with another question, guys. With regards to even levels 4+, you get to switch any maneuver to the highest level you can use, as long as you meet that maneuver's prereqs. My question is, say I have a level 2 maneuver like Baffling Defense, which requires 1 Setting Sun maneuver. At 4 (or 6th, whenever it would be eligible), could I switch out the level 1 maneuver that allowed me to take baffling defense? i.e., do you only need to have the prereqs for a maneuver when you take it, or all the time (like with trying to retrain a feat tree)?

It's kind of vague, but it seems like you could switch it out for anything, that the prereq is only a 'when you take this' deal. Of course, that view benefits me....


In case anyone cares/is curious, I just started a campaign with a Rogue 3 (she bought off her LA+1 race), SS 3/Monk 1 (Me, wis to AC stacks), and Ftr 2/Warblade 2 with a spiked chain and imp trip and disarm (he's ridiculous). I'm actually going to end up (eventually) with SS 12/Monk 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1 (no healer)/Shiba Protector 1/Mo9 5.


Edit: Oh, I just found the part where they said stances count for prereqs. My question still stands, however.

tyckspoon
2010-05-16, 03:26 AM
Only for the 5 levels, I think.


I'm actually back with another question, guys. With regards to even levels 4+, you get to switch any maneuver to the highest level you can use, as long as you meet that maneuver's prereqs. My question is, say I have a level 2 maneuver like Baffling Defense, which requires 1 Setting Sun maneuver. At 4 (or 6th, whenever it would be eligible), could I switch out the level 1 maneuver that allowed me to take baffling defense? i.e., do you only need to have the prereqs for a maneuver when you take it, or all the time (like with trying to retrain a feat tree)?


It is generally held, and CustServ/the Sage/other relevant 'authorities' have agreed, that a maneuver counts for itself. As long as you meet the prereq throughout the process you're fine- ie, you level and want to select Baffling Defense. You need 1 Setting Sun maneuver to do so. You take Baffling Defense, and now have 2 Setting Sun maneuvers. At 4th, you swap out that first maneuver- you still have 1 Setting Sun maneuver, Baffling Defense itself, which satisfies the requirement for having Baffling Defense.

modi
2010-05-18, 10:52 AM
Yet another question guys, this time about a specific technique. As an unarmed swordsage, if I use the dancing mongoose or raging mongoose techniques, do I take two weapon penalties? The level 1 maneuver specifies, but the two I mentioned do not. I was wondering, since getting 2 or 4 extra attacks (since I am technically wielding two weapons) at the highest BAB is pretty powerful.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 11:04 AM
Yet another question guys, this time about a specific technique. As an unarmed swordsage, if I use the dancing mongoose or raging mongoose techniques, do I take two weapon penalties? The level 1 maneuver specifies, but the two I mentioned do not. I was wondering, since getting 2 or 4 extra attacks (since I am technically wielding two weapons) at the highest BAB is pretty powerful.If you use TWF, you get the normal penalties. If you don't, you don't.

Godskook
2010-05-18, 11:21 AM
It is generally held, and CustServ/the Sage/other relevant 'authorities' have agreed, that a maneuver counts for itself. As long as you meet the prereq throughout the process you're fine- ie, you level and want to select Baffling Defense. You need 1 Setting Sun maneuver to do so. You take Baffling Defense, and now have 2 Setting Sun maneuvers. At 4th, you swap out that first maneuver- you still have 1 Setting Sun maneuver, Baffling Defense itself, which satisfies the requirement for having Baffling Defense.

Wait, I can't find the page offhand, but iirc, maneuvers don't require you to continually meet their prerequisites like PrC in certain books and feats do. Pretty sure that was a sticking point for at least one of the True-Mo9 builds floating around.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-18, 11:21 AM
Even monks effectively take two weapon fighting penalties - that's what flurry does. I like Pathfinder because it reduces that penalty as you progress in levels until your flurry starts at the same BAB as the regular progression. Of course, even in 3.5 the monk's flurry is only at -2/-2, from a +0 BAB.

Godskook
2010-05-18, 11:23 AM
Even monks effectively take two weapon fighting penalties - that's what flurry does. I like Pathfinder because it reduces that penalty as you progress in levels until your flurry starts at the same BAB as the regular progression. Of course, even in 3.5 the monk's flurry is only at -2/-2, from a +0 BAB.

That's not a pathfinder addition.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 11:25 AM
Wait, I can't find the page offhand, but iirc, maneuvers don't require you to continually meet their prerequisites like PrC in certain books and feats do. Pretty sure that was a sticking point for at least one of the True-Mo9 builds floating around.I was under the impression that even maneuvers you swapped out still counted for the prerequisites of other maneuvers.

[Edit]:
That's not a pathfinder addition.Though this is completely off-topic, PF monk's flurry gives the same attacks as full BAB TWF, ie. +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 sequence at level 20. (Compared to 3.5 monk's +15/+15/+15/+10/+5.)

Godskook
2010-05-18, 11:34 AM
[Edit]:Though this is completely off-topic, PF monk's flurry gives the same attacks as full BAB TWF, ie. +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 sequence at level 20. (Compared to 3.5 monk's +15/+15/+15/+10/+5.)

A 9th level monk, vanilla 3.5, takes no to-hit penalty when flurrying. It sounds like pathfinder kept the penalty and gave them full BAB instead.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 11:37 AM
A 9th level monk, vanilla 3.5, takes no to-hit penalty when flurrying. It sounds like pathfinder kept the penalty and gave them full BAB instead.They have full BAB only when flurrying (and for combat maneuvers), and the penalty they've got is the TWF penalty. (In PF flurry is essentially TWF.)

[Edit]:
Flurry of Blows
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).

A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-18, 12:01 PM
I just wanted to add that you should really take 1 level of Warblade and use it's manuver's to get Iron Heart Prereqs so you don't waste a Mo9 manuever for them. Use your extra manuever's for useful things like Moment of Perfect Mind that you can always use another readied copy off.

Also consider not taking all your Mo9 levels at once so you use at least one to get an otherwise inaccesable level 9 manuever.

modi
2010-05-18, 01:08 PM
I'm actually not going to be taking any Iron Heart maneuvers with this character. Here's how he'll look if we hit 20:

Swordsage 12/Monk 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/Shiba Protector 1/Mo9 5

Ninja for heals, Shiba for awesomeness, monk because the AC bonuses stack (different sources, untyped), and Mo9 for more awesomeness. This is what my final maneuver spread will look like:

Stance (1) Island of Blades
Stance (1) Step of the Wind
Stance (3) Dance of the Spider
Stance (5) Step of the Dancing Moth
Stance (8) Aura of Perfect Order
Stance (8) Balance on the Sky

1 Wolf Fang Strike
1 Wind Stride
2 Emerald Razor
2 Claw at the Moon
2 Action Before Thought
3 Shadow Garrote
3 Mind Over Body
4 Searing Charge
4 Firesnake
4 Boulder Roll
5 Dancing Mongoose
5 Elder Mountain Hammer
6 Shadow Noose
2 Foehammer
5 Tide of Chaos
7 Ancient Mountain Strike
7 Salamander Charge
7 Quicksilver Motion
6 Rallying Strike
8 Wyrm's Flame
8 Raging Mongoose Strike
9 Strike of Righteous Vitality
9 Feral Death Blow
9 Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike
9 Mountain Tombstone Strike
9 Inferno Blast

Stances count as a maneuver for learning other maneuvers (page 44, prerequisites chapter). I think 5 level 9 maneuvers out of a possible 6 is a pretty good deal for a touch attack heal and +Wis to attack, damage, and AC.


Edit: Can I dancing or raging mongoose in conjunction with Wolf Fang Strike, and thus remove the need to take two-weapon fighting? The mongoose strikes are boosts...

Draz74
2010-05-18, 01:28 PM
monk because the AC bonuses stack (different sources, untyped),

They really don't.

Rules As Intended: They're obviously supposed to represent the same kind of ability. Most DMs, myself included, wouldn't let them stack.

Rules As Written: They still don't stack, because you lose the Swordsage bonus if you take off your light armor, and lose the Monk bonus if you put on your light armor. (Mind you, as a DM I'd totally rule that a Swordsage gets to keep his AC bonus without armor on ... unless the same character was also a Monk.)

modi
2010-05-18, 02:25 PM
Excuse me, unarmed variant, I should have specified.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 02:43 PM
Excuse me, unarmed variant, I should have specified.Even unarmed swordsages only benefit from Wis to AC in light armor, despite not being proficient with it. You'd probably prefer to play RAI.

true_shinken
2010-05-18, 09:21 PM
Even unarmed swordsages only benefit from Wis to AC in light armor, despite not being proficient with it. You'd probably prefer to play RAI.

Actually, the Sage ruled swordsages keep their Wis-to-AC bonus when unarmored.
Of course, the Sage also ruled Monk and Swordsage do not stack for AC.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-18, 10:00 PM
They really don't.

Rules As Intended: They're obviously supposed to represent the same kind of ability. Most DMs, myself included, wouldn't let them stack.

Rules As Written: They still don't stack, because you lose the Swordsage bonus if you take off your light armor, and lose the Monk bonus if you put on your light armor. (Mind you, as a DM I'd totally rule that a Swordsage gets to keep his AC bonus without armor on ... unless the same character was also a Monk.)


Actually, the Sage ruled swordsages keep their Wis-to-AC bonus when unarmored.
Of course, the Sage also ruled Monk and Swordsage do not stack for AC.

Of course, if you go by "They're written the same way, so they do not stack"... then the Con-to-AC bonus for the Fist of the Forest doesn't stack either... which isn't the case in the sample character.

Personally, I just wouldn't allow the same stat to be counted twice for anything... Which, of course, leaves the door open for the Battle Dancer class (Dragon Compendium), that gets Cha-to-AC. Or getting Kung Fu Genius for Monk and keeping Wis-to-AC for Unarmed Swordsage.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-18, 10:03 PM
Actually, the Sage ruled swordsages keep their Wis-to-AC bonus when unarmored.
Of course, the Sage also ruled Monk and Swordsage do not stack for AC.

Naturally, this means that the Swordsage's Wis-to-AC only works in light armour and it stacks with the Monk's if the Monk somehow gets the ability to apply his while wearing light armour.

The Sage has no idea what he's talking about. Ever.