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View Full Version : advice on bans, and a query about arcane archers



newbie4life
2010-05-15, 12:12 PM
greetings!

i am a novice dm working with CORE only, and a few of the variant rules on d20srd (assume all of them for simplicity?)

my players are all equally new, but do not lack cleverness and the ability to break things... what should i ban ahead of time to stop the most egregious exploits?


arcane archers... how good IS the imbue arrow ability? can you staple an antimagic field to a hostile spellcaster? does it follow him? can use turn an arrow into a spell trigger for trap the soul? could you do that even if you weren't an arcane archer?

thanks in advance!

Edwin
2010-05-15, 12:17 PM
The simple answer; tell your players to participate in a reasonable fashion. You're there to have fun, and that's hard to do when one person exploits a spell, feat, trick or whatever.

Advanced answer? Dude, there's tons. Things like Wish can easily be used to break the game, though that's high level. Anyone playing a spellcaster could potentially mess up the fun for, for example, the party fighter.

Really, there's to much overall to ban it all, unless you wanna spend hours looking through every odd bit of rules. Limiting yourself to core helps, but by no means does it exclude cheese.

Once again, just be good sports about it, and looking your friends sheets over before the campaign starts is never a bad idea. :smallwink:

Pluto
2010-05-15, 12:21 PM
greetings!

i am a novice dm working with CORE only, and a few of the variant rules on d20srd (assume all of them for simplicity?)

my players are all equally new, but do not lack cleverness and the ability to break things... what should i ban ahead of time to stop the most egregious exploits?
Like Edwin says, there's too much that can be exploited to solve the problem with blanket bans. The most overt problems can emerge through shapeshifting and Calling effects.

Now, I don't want to say you should ban Planar Binding, Polymorph or their relatives - they're fun and iconic abilities that just happen to be outrageously powerful. But you might want to limit them: put the "Mind Affecting" and "Compulsion" tags on the Planar Binding family when they're used to compel summons, and use the "cannot increase number of attacks" clause of Polymorph to restrict the number of attacks a Hydra (and other creatures with huge numbers of attacks/round) can make. Even then, they'll be very powerful abilities, but they won't be quite as silly.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 12:22 PM
my players are all equally new, but do not lack cleverness and the ability to break things... what should i ban ahead of time to stop the most egregious exploits? If they're actively looking to greak the game, tell 'em to knock it off.


arcane archers... how good IS the imbue arrow ability?Not good enough to justify going to Arcane Archer.
can you staple an antimagic field to a hostile spellcaster? does it follow him?By RAW, no. The arrow is destroyed when it hits and the Anti-magic field will be fixed into a point of space.
can use turn an arrow into a spell trigger for trap the soul?Yes, but the target has to pick up the arrow, shooting it wouldn't work by strict reading of the RAW.
could you do that even if you weren't an arcane archer?Yes, Trap the Soul is not an area spell and can't be Imbued into an arrow anyway.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-15, 12:50 PM
Arcane Archer is awful because it does not progress spellcasting. If any of your players is interested in it, you should make it do so. Since getting in basically requires non-Wizard levels (to meet the BAB requirement), they have most likely lost enough spellcasting to justify the class abilities by the time they qualify, which means the class could quite possibly be balanced with 10/10 spellcasting.

But just so you know: Core is hideously imbalanced. The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are, when played well, among the most powerful classes in the game. The Fighter, Monk, and Paladin are among the weakest classes and most difficult to do anything effective with.

I strongly recommend finding a fix for those last three. There have been lots of homebrew attempts - and one official one, the Tome of Battle. If you were to consider adding a single book to your Core game, that would be my recommendation. Even if you don't, you can still play a Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) using the Maneuver Cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) - the fact that Wizards has essentially offered up the complete Warblade, complete with maneuvers, for free on their website, indicates to some that they really do intend for it to be an apology of sorts for the Fighter.

Finally, just, be aware - D&D 3.5, especially Core, and especially in terms of Feats, has a lot of "traps" - things that look good to a novice, but are actually awful wastes. This includes the majority of the feats (every +2 to two skills, the +2 to a saving throw feats, the Dodge feat chain, the Weapon Focus feat chain, the Improved Unarmed Strike feat chain, armor and weapon proficiency feats [usually; Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Spiked Chain is worthwhile but pretty much nothing else], Toughness), especially Fighter feats. You should probably let your players know that these things are complete wastes of feat slots, and they shouldn't get them unless trying to qualify for things.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 01:16 PM
But just so you know: Core is hideously imbalanced. The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are, when played well, among the most powerful classes in the game. The Fighter, Monk, and Paladin are among the weakest classes and most difficult to do anything effective with.A note here: some classes are easier than others. A wizard is only as powerful as his spells, so they can vary from utterly useless to physical deities. On the other hand, with a druid you have to actively try to gimp yourself or you'll shoot so fast past the fighter & co. it's not even fun.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-15, 01:22 PM
Very true. A Druid literally only has to remember to actually use all his class features (Animal Companion, Wild Shape, and spellcasting) and take Natural Spell in order to dominate.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-15, 01:24 PM
Optimizing a druid:

1. Take Natural Spell.
2. Profit!

Greenish
2010-05-15, 01:33 PM
Optimizing a druid:

1. Take Natural Spell.
2. Profit!Yeah, it's pretty obvious, and even if you don't take it, you're two fighters or a fighter and a full caster.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-15, 01:38 PM
If you go to the Pathfinder SRD, take the Paladin & Arcane Archer from there... maybe even the Monk as well.

Then add Tome of Battle.

Toughness is replaced by "Improved Toughness", which gives +1 HP per level. This is official, btw... not homebrew.

lsfreak
2010-05-15, 01:38 PM
Very true. A Druid literally only has to remember to actually use all his class features (Animal Companion, Wild Shape, and spellcasting) and take Natural Spell in order to dominate.

Basically, classes come with inbuilt power ranges, provided the person has the basic grasps of the system (wizards want Int, fighters want hit points and Str, etc). So on a 10-point scale, some of Core might look something like this (purely for example):
Fighter - 1-4
Rogue - 1-5
Cleric - 2-9
Druid - 5-10
Wizard - 3-11

So if you have a well-optimized fighter and a poorly optimized cleric and wizard, it might work out. A poorly optimized druid will probably outshine them all. Caster optimization tends to be a bit more hard to grasp than melee (fireball versus haste, cure versus magic circle, etc), though it's always possible someone quick to grasp the system will realize the kinds of stuff they can do with a wizard and make even standard tricks look overpowered (i.e. the wizards at level 6 while everyone else is 3).

Keld Denar
2010-05-15, 01:41 PM
Here's a suggestion. Let your players plan their characters and submit ideas, general or specific, to you. You then post their ideas and/or builds here, and we'll tell you everything that you need to watch out for. The more information you can provide us, the better. If you have a player who knows what they want to do, but is not sure how, you can post that here as well, and we can help him or her build what they want balanced against a certain power level.

Let the experience of thousands of posters help make sure that everything is not drifting too far to either end of the power spectrum.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 01:46 PM
If you go to the Pathfinder SRD, take the Paladin & Arcane Archer from there... maybe even the Monk as well.Yeah, Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/Home) does good things to paladins, bards and rangers, while limiting the power of druids. It doesn't make the classes balanced, but it brings them closer.

And I'll join the choir chanting "get ToB, get ToB, get ToB…" It does wonderful things for melee, unlike Core that was most likely written by a team of wizards who hate beatsticks.

[Edit]:
Here's a suggestion. Let your players plan their characters and submit ideas, general or specific, to you. You then post their ideas and/or builds here, and we'll tell you everything that you need to watch out for. The more information you can provide us, the better. If you have a player who knows what they want to do, but is not sure how, you can post that here as well, and we can help him or her build what they want balanced against a certain power level.

Let the experience of thousands of posters help make sure that everything is not drifting too far to either end of the power spectrum.This is a great advice. Many concepts can be made to work and tailored to a power level you're comfortable with, and a million heads is better than one.

It should also be pointed out that the lack of books doesn't necessarily limit you to core-only: 3.5 has huge numbers of stuff that can be found online for free (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0).

Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) also has enough information about classes, spells and so forth to allow you to play many non-core classes.

lsfreak
2010-05-15, 01:58 PM
And I'll join the choir chanting "get ToB, get ToB, get ToB…" It does wonderful things for melee, unlike Core that was most likely written by a team of wizards who hate beatsticks.

It does, though another system to try and learn while learning the game might be a bit much. Of course it's no Binder of Incarnum, and it is in similar vein to Vancian casting. But it also is very powerful at low levels, that can't be denied, and if casters are doing nothing but throwing fireballs and cure serious wounds, they might actually be left behind by the melee.

I'd say try it out, but keep in mind - and inform your players that - blaster-casters and healers aren't particularly strong. They'll need to make good use of their spells for buffing/debuffing/controlling.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-15, 04:08 PM
I'm not a fan of Dust of Sneezing and Choking. 20'-radius, no save, 5d4 round stun? 9th level spells can't even do that.
Unless the BBEG is immune to stunning, any fight can be won, with no loss of hitpoints or spells, for a mere 2,400gp.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 04:11 PM
I'm not a fan of Dust of Sneezing and Choking. 20'-radius, no save, 5d4 round stun? 9th level spells can't even do that.
Unless the BBEG is immune to stunning, any fight can be won, with no loss of hitpoints or spells, for a mere 2,400gp.

Funny trick when a PC decides to intentionally buy a cursed item, throw in an extra curse. Like the bag ruptures the moment they try to use it. Would have been a TPK but I decided to have the party captured instead.

Pink
2010-05-15, 04:41 PM
Yeah, Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/Home) does good things to paladins, bards and rangers, while limiting the power of druids.

How does pathfinder do good things for bards? While I'm willing to accept that all other classes get a sort of improvement or proper adjustment, bards got horribly horribly hosed.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 04:50 PM
How does pathfinder do good things for bards? While I'm willing to accept that all other classes get a sort of improvement or proper adjustment, bards got horribly horribly hosed.Versatile Performance, Lore Master and Jack of All Trades are all pretty nice. So is swift action performance and free action concentration. So are extra spell slots and spells known.

The duration got hit pretty badly, but well, there are more feats to take Extra Performance with.

[Edit]: Disclaimer: This is comparing 3.5 core-only bard to pathfinder bard.

Pink
2010-05-15, 04:55 PM
Versatile Performance, Lore Master and Jack of All Trades are all pretty nice. So is swift action performance and free action concentration. So are extra spell slots and spells known.

The duration got hit pretty badly, but well, there are more feats to take Extra Performance with.

[Edit]: Disclaimer: This is comparing 3.5 core-only bard to pathfinder bard.

Even core only, taking away the ability to stack mutiple music effects through duration is very very harsh. Not to mention every time you want to cast a spell, you'll have to drop the music and your buff, and at lower levels that eats up your next turn to start the music up again. Several of a bard's key spells also got a bit of a nerfhammer to them.

The skill bonus stuff is nice, but when you're made drastically less useful in combat, and D&D by very nature is a high combat game, the class got hosed.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 05:03 PM
Not to mention every time you want to cast a spell, you'll have to drop the music and your buff,Are you sure about that?
Several of a bard's key spells also got a bit of a nerfhammer to them.That's true for the other casters too.

The skill bonus stuff is nice, but when you're made drastically less useful in combat, and D&D by very nature is a high combat game, the class got hosed.Hmm, you may be right, I just tossed it in there as an example, could've given it more thought.

Mongoose87
2010-05-15, 05:12 PM
I find that the Bard and Barbarian got beaten with the nerfhammer like a pink-haired dwarf. I mean, what's this level-based limit on main class features supposed to accomplish? It's not like basing rage-length on Con was OP, and bards can't inspire someone doing a task that takes more than a few seconds, now.

Pink
2010-05-15, 05:16 PM
I'll admit, I am referencing 3.5 with the can't cast while musicking bit. Pathfinder doesn't say anything specific on it, however it also does not say specifically that you can cast while musicking. However, simply by the fact that you would have to concentrate on it, I'd say the answer looks unfavourable. Goodness forbid that you actually put ranks in anything other than perform sing though, how are you going to explain wielding a weapon and playing an instrument at the same time. It may be a free action to keep concentrating on the song, but what else are you going to use those actions for when your hands are full and you're concentrating on something.

As for spells, the other casters get more of them (Both to know, cast, and choose from), and at the very least the damagy ones weren't touched.

I could also mention that the amount of times you can use bard music for is essentially reduced too. in 3.5, even if it was measured in times per day, each of those could be a potential inspire that lasted for 6 rounds. At level 20, 3.5 bard could essentially have 120 rounds of inspires a day. In pathfinder, you're looking at 42+CHA mod rounds. True this doesn't take things like the countersongs and such into account, but I still think it's a significant measure.

Bards had it hard enough, and in pathfinder they have an even harder time of it.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 05:25 PM
I'll admit, I am referencing 3.5 with the can't cast while musicking bit. Pathfinder doesn't say anything specific on it, however it also does not say specifically that you can cast while musicking.Well, since it's free action, I'd say you can cast spells as much as you wish.

Goodness forbid that you actually put ranks in anything other than perform sing though, how are you going to explain wielding a weapon and playing an instrument at the same time.Perform: Oratory, Perform: Comedy, Perform: Act and Perform: Dance would also work. And you can use each of those to replace a couple of skills.

As for spells, the other casters get more of them (Both to know, cast, and choose from), and at the very least the damagy ones weren't touched. Full casters being better casters is true for 3.5 too, and straight damage spells tend to be the weakest options.

I could also mention that the amount of times you can use bard music for is essentially reduced too. in 3.5, even if it was measured in times per day, each of those could be a potential inspire that lasted for 6 rounds. At level 20, 3.5 bard could essentially have 120 rounds of inspires a day. In pathfinder, you're looking at 42+CHA mod rounds. True this doesn't take things like the countersongs and such into account, but I still think it's a significant measure.How much do you really need? The assumed average is four encounters a day, most of which do not last for 10+ rounds.

Pink
2010-05-15, 05:38 PM
Because it's a free action...It's concentration. It's kinda the same reason you can't keep casting another spell if you're already concentrating on one. If you can find a DM that rules that, all the better for you.

All those performances are considered 'visual' by Pathfinder (as noted in the seperation between countersong and distraction). To be affected by inspire courage, your allies need to perceive you. Very difficult visually. Unless you're willing to wade past the front line so the fighters can see you dance (and get slaughtered). Again, if you can find the DM that rules otherwise, great, but RAW, bard's got nerfed, even if few reasonable DM's will be that harsh or read the rules that clearly.

I don't think you understand my point for the spell thing. Bards have a rather small and nicher list. Most the batman type spells. Batman type spells were the ones that got nerfed most however. So not only if the bard's primary feature, the music, weakened, but so is it's secondary feature. In comparison, the wizards primary feature, batman spells, were weakened, but they're secondary features, damage spells, were not.

As for how much you need....I don't think that should be relavent. We're talking a potential reduction of around 66%. A Nerf is a Nerf. If they reduced the spells wizards and clerics could cast by 66%, even if they might not use all of them in a 'assumed average' day, it would still be an outright weakening. Why should it be different for a bard?

The Glyphstone
2010-05-15, 05:49 PM
Hey, I like my Dwarf Bard with Perform (Drums) and Lightning Maces, who keeps tempo on his enemy's shins and torsos just fine thank you.:smallbiggrin:

Bards looking to buff themselves can do just fine on the front lines if they're careful.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 05:51 PM
Because it's a free action...It's concentration. It's kinda the same reason you can't keep casting another spell if you're already concentrating on one.It's because maintaining concentration is usually a standard action.
If you can find a DM that rules that, all the better for you.There's nothing stating that bards couldn't cast spells. To rule differently is to houserule.

All those performances are considered 'visual' by Pathfinder (as noted in the seperation between countersong and distraction). To be affected by inspire courage, your allies need to perceive you. Very difficult visually. Unless you're willing to wade past the front line so the fighters can see you dance (and get slaughtered).Did PF add facing rules while I wasn't watching? No, it didn't.


Again, if you can find the DM that rules otherwise, great, but RAW, bard's got nerfed, even if few reasonable DM's will be that harsh or read the rules that clearly.Yeah, sucks for bards relying on visual performance if the DM decides to add facing rules. You'll have to learn to sing.

I don't think you understand my point for the spell thing. Bards have a rather small and nicher list. Most the batman type spells. Batman type spells were the ones that got nerfed most however.They were also the best to begin with.

As for how much you need....I don't think that should be relavent.Why not? As long as you have enough to get through the day, any extra is just wasted.

Pink
2010-05-15, 06:12 PM
First off, using the "There's nothing stating you can't, so you can" Arguement does not work. There's nothing stating the laws of gravity are in effect, yet your character is still bound by them by default.

1. If you can find where it states that you can cast spells while using bardic music, I'll give this point to you. I base my assumption on the specific wording from 3.5. However, casting spells requires concentration. Concentration can be interrupted from things like weather and riding and such as well. I don't think it's a stretch that, in lack of a clear ruling, an average DM will grandfather that you can't concentrate on a spell while using bardic music. I would move that if a DM does in fact rule otherwise this is motivated by the stupidity pathfinder did to bardic music as opposed to actual belief in dual concentration, which still cedes the point that, as written, pathfinder nerfed bards hard.

2. I will refer you to 3.5, where it was specifically stated. As there is not mention one way or the other about it, it would be reasonable to assume that it's grandfathered in instead of removed.

3. I don't argue facing rules, but again, the average DM. If following as written, I don't think an average DM would credit a fighter an inspiration bonus, if the bard is not located in a easily spotted location.

For the next point concerning the spells, read the quoted part you cut out and you will get my general answer. It's not specifically that the batman spell's were nerfed, but that they, as a secondary feature of bard's were nerfed, as well as the bard's primary feature, basically cutting both it's legs out instead of merely one.

With your last point, I have to ask, are you giving up debating my point that bard's got nerfed badly? The argument you're presenting sounds to me like this: that a plate filled with the minimum amount of food to survive a day is just as superior to a gourmet dinner. To which I have to say it isn't relevent that you could survive with both meals, by replacing the gourmet dish with a smaller dish, you're still employing a reduction, which is still a nerf that should still be considered.

Anyway, This has already detracted enough from the thread, and even if you may differ on some of my opinions, I think my point is still made sufficient that RAW, pathfinder bard is very inferior, and even less fun to play than Core Bard. Basically, after having played with and read over pathfinder, while there are some good things about it and the classes, not all of them are necessarily improvements and should be carefully looked over before implementing on blind faith.

Prodan
2010-05-15, 06:20 PM
Pink, why do you insist on adhering to a point of view that assumes that a fighter who is locked in combat with a befanged monstrosity will not periodically glance over his shoulder at a bard dancing 30 feet behind him?

Pink
2010-05-15, 06:27 PM
Pink, why do you insist on adhering to a point of view that assumes that a fighter who is locked in combat with a befanged monstrosity will not periodically glance over his shoulder at a bard dancing 30 feet behind him?

I seriously have to wonder if this is a joke or serious. If a joke, funny. Nice use of sarcasm.

If serious, what can I say, I happen to have a DM who's a bit more hard up on the realism perspective.

Greenish
2010-05-15, 06:34 PM
First off, using the "There's nothing stating you can't, so you can" Arguement does not work. There's nothing stating the laws of gravity are in effect, yet your character is still bound by them by default.It does work here. There's no reason to assume you couldn't cast spells while maintaining performance.

1. If you can find where it states that you can cast spells while using bardic music, I'll give this point to you.If you find anything saying that they can't, I'll give the point to you.
I base my assumption on the specific wording from 3.5. However, casting spells requires concentration.Concentration, by the way, works differently in PF.

Concentration can be interrupted from things like weather and riding and such as well.You'll note that that is for casting spells, not for singing.

You might also be interested to find out that you don't "concentrate" on bardic music: the free action is specifically to "maintain" it.

Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action.

3. I don't argue facing rules, but again, the average DM. If following as written, I don't think an average DM would credit a fighter an inspiration bonus, if the bard is not located in a easily spotted location.So you're not enforcing some arbitrary facing rules, but "average DM" is. Yeah, great argument.

Not that this even matters, because you can sing or tell tales for many of the effects as well.

For the next point concerning the spells, read the quoted part you cut out and you will get my general answer. It's not specifically that the batman spell's were nerfed, but that they, as a secondary feature of bard's were nerfed, as well as the bard's primary feature, basically cutting both it's legs out instead of merely one.I'm contesting that bardic music was nerfed in the first place, and merely a few of the lower level staple spells were nerfed.

With your last point, I have to ask, are you giving up debating my point that bard's got nerfed badly? The argument you're presenting sounds to me like this: that a plate filled with the minimum amount of food to survive a day is just as superior to a gourmet dinner.I would say it's more about quantity, not quality here. If you have enough water to not get thirsty, you don't need a whole lake.

Anyway, This has already detracted enough from the thread, and even if you may differ on some of my opinions, I think my point is still made sufficient that RAW, pathfinder bard is very inferior, and even less fun to play than Core Bard.I don't see where the "less fun" part comes, unless you really enjoy saying "I keep singing, that's all" on your every turn.

[Edit]:
I happen to have a DM who's a bit more hard up on the realism perspective.Neither D&D nor PF cares for realism. If your DM likes to houserule stuff "to make it more realistic" to screw over players, well, sucks to be you.

Prodan
2010-05-15, 06:39 PM
Not that this even matters, because you can sing or tell tales for many of the effects as well.
In addition to assuming that the fighter locked in deadly combat with a befanged monstrosity will not be checking in on the bard periodically, Pink also assumes that the fighter won't take time to listen to the bard's songs or tales whilst in the middle of clashing blades and howls of pain.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-15, 06:52 PM
Pink, why do you insist on adhering to a point of view that assumes that a fighter who is locked in combat with a befanged monstrosity will not periodically glance over his shoulder at a bard dancing 30 feet behind him?

The bard is not dancing. It's telling to the fighter that what is doing now will come part of a legend.

Don't understimate PF bard. Yes, you will not have an all-time per encounter music, but the effects are better. Just think to the fact that the inspire courage bonus not only increases the fighter damage, but his CMB for trip attempts. At level 20, the bonus is comparable to the one from Improved Trip and Greater Trip (and stacking with GWF and weapon training you can really go up with the bonus).

Moreover, now PF bard has more spell and debuff effects. And think about the advantages of the remove fatigue effects on barbarians. PF PC are even more made o be built one on each other, and played in combos (other examples; monk and fighter stuns and rogues, clerical domains powers and CMB bonus, flanking and bonus to CMB, Greater Feint + Deadly Stroke + Rogue combo and so on).

Another thing on the barbarian: when I've seen the PF barbarian the first time I was underhelmed - but if you carefully weight the effects of the rage powers and built them well them one each other and with feats (knockback + unespected strike + improved bull rush, bite +strenght surge + improved grapple) you can discover how pathfinder barbarian can be "the one per encounter man". Fighters slaghther metodically with combo of moves, barbarians are like unpredictable beasts.. they suddenly come up with something strange and unavoidable like a + 61 on a grapple CMB. Enjoy the difference, that's the beauty of 3.5 and pathfinder.

sofawall
2010-05-15, 11:36 PM
<Big long thing I disagree with.>

So basically, you flip-flop between "Show me the rules" and "A DM would likely houserule", by which you actually mean "I would houserule", because I doubt you have personal knowledge of the DMing styles of the majority of the world's DMs.

I can work with "I know it is stupid, but the book says this." I can work with "I know the book says this, but I think this is a better idea." I cannot work with "The book says this, and I say that, so I'll pick whichever oneowkrs for the moment."