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View Full Version : Factotum//Warblade and Druid//Swordsage? [3.5]



Fortuna
2010-05-15, 06:45 PM
I've been looking at the Neverending Dungeon Crawl over in the PbP section, and I thought I might be interested, probably for the Duo Dungeon. My first thought was a Factotum//Warblade teamed up with a Druid//Swordsage, mostly because I like tome of battle, Druid is incredibly powerful, and factotum covers skillmonkey and trapfinder duties nicely. I was wondering if the playground could give me any advice. So that people don't have to go hunting, it's a 32 point buy with maximum starting gold.

So, what do you think?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-15, 06:50 PM
The Druid's casting capabilities will be stretched rather thin, but that's my only concern. That the entire party is stealthy works very nicely.

Fortuna
2010-05-15, 07:00 PM
I was a bit torn between druid and cleric, but the extra meatshield sold me in the end.

Escheton
2010-05-15, 07:23 PM
tactile trapsmith for dex and int on rogueskills for the factotum.
damage will come from maneuvers so dex heavy finessing a spiked chain would work. Stock up on eternal wands if you can. Fist of stone and enlarge person are great to have around.

Get one or two of mirror move as well http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030504x
and synergize the feats between them.

consider the wildshapeless UA druid if you can't use maneuevers in wildshape.
don't see why not, but still. They rock either way.

Fortuna
2010-05-15, 11:50 PM
I can't see any reason why you can't use maneuvers in Wildshape.

Do natural attacks count as unarmed strikes? If so, then Tiger Claw looks very attractive.

Greenish
2010-05-16, 12:29 AM
Do natural attacks count as unarmed strikes?No, but you can use unarmed strikes in wild shape too.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 01:06 AM
No, but you can use unarmed strikes in wild shape too."HEADBUTT SNEAK ATTACK BEAR ATTACK!

"Next time, on Bears Gone Wild!"

Draz74
2010-05-16, 01:06 AM
Or just use maneuvers without having one of their "special" weapons.

Fortuna
2010-05-16, 01:39 AM
Another question: can one use Wolf Fang Strike etc. purely unarmed?

2xMachina
2010-05-16, 05:33 AM
Hmm, not sure how's your healing. Heard it was deadlier, so they would be a bunch of unavoidable damage. (Druid can heal, but not unlimited IIRC)

But those 2 gestalts are nice.

Anyway, Natural attacks counts as weapons. So long they don't require metal weapon, you should be able to use it with Natural attacks. Pure unarmed is harder to say though

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-16, 06:04 AM
Tiger Claw gets both unarmed strike and claw among its favored weapons....

Unless it specifies manufactured weapon, the term weapon includes any natural weapon, manufactured weapon, and unarmed strikes. An unarmed strike is considered a natural weapon, although in the case of a Monk it can also be considered a manufactured weapon for game effects, and a gauntlet is also considered a manufactured weapon even though you use it to deliver an unarmed strike. You cannot initiate a strike maneuver with a touch spell for example, because that is not a weapon even though you are considered armed, but you can make an unarmed strike with one just fine.

I'd make the Druid//Swordsage a Killoren from Races of the Wild, and use Aspect of the Ancient with the feat Magic of the Land from the same book. Get Natural Bond at 1st level since Magic of the Land must be taken at 3rd, and of course Natural Spell at 6th. You'll need to either take a flaw for Adaptive Style or let it wait until 9th, and if you can use flaws you may as well also get Companion Spellbond.

Greenish
2010-05-16, 06:15 AM
An unarmed strike is considered a natural weaponIt's not. Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are separate categories following different rules.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-16, 06:21 AM
It's not. Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weapons are separate categories following different rules.

Right, it's considered a natural weapon for most game mechanics, such as Improved Natural Attack and (Greater) Magic Fang, but not for things such as iterative attacks. Regardless, if a discipline lists it under its favored weapons, it should be possible to execute strike maneuvers with unarmed strikes.

Greenish
2010-05-16, 06:45 AM
Right, it's considered a natural weapon for most game mechanics, such as Improved Natural Attack and (Greater) Magic Fang,Only for monks, whose specific class feature allows them to consider them such.

Regardless, if a discipline lists it under its favored weapons, it should be possible to execute strike maneuvers with unarmed strikes.Obviously, but that doesn't mean that Unarmed Strikes are Natural Weapons.

Da Beast
2010-05-16, 07:31 AM
"HEADBUTT SNEAK ATTACK BEAR ATTACK!

"Next time, on Bears Gone Wild!"

Do bears really go wild? I was under the impression that eating people was inherent to a bear's natural state.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 09:21 AM
Do bears really go wild? I was under the impression that eating people was inherent to a bear's natural state.Bears go wild all the time. That's why they eat people.

Godskook
2010-05-16, 09:38 AM
You want a source of infinite healing. The ones I'm most familiar with are:

-persisted lesser vigor
-Draconic Aura - vigor (1/2 health)
-Touch of Healing (1/2 health)
-1 undead + shadow sun ninja or dread necromancer

2xMachina
2010-05-16, 10:42 AM
Tomb-tainted rather than undead works too.

strider24seven
2010-05-16, 02:56 PM
Do bears really go wild? I was under the impression that eating people was inherent to a bear's natural state.

Looks like someone rolled a 1 on his untrained Knowledge (Bear Lore) check. Anyone with any ranks in it would know that bears are ALWAYS WILD!!!

Fortuna
2010-05-16, 05:31 PM
The method of healing that we're looking at (I've negotiated a team-up with nolispe) is Vital Recovery.

Escheton
2010-05-16, 05:42 PM
Looks like someone rolled a 1 on his untrained Knowledge (Bear Lore) check. Anyone with any ranks in it would know that bears are ALWAYS WILD!!!

well, except trained/tame bears

Tanaric
2010-05-16, 05:42 PM
You want a source of infinite healing.

This is a fairly common misconception about the N.E.D. I can't speak for the ongoing lethality of the duo dungeon, since that was designed by T.S., but characters have cleared the early floors of the normal dungeon with nothing more than a potion of lesser vigor.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with having infinite healing, it's just terribly overstated as a necessity in the N.E.D.

Just the two coppers from an old hack of a dungeon designer. :smalltongue:

Godskook
2010-05-16, 05:50 PM
The method of healing that we're looking at (I've negotiated a team-up with nolispe) is Vital Recovery.

How does Vital Recovery work under this DM? Can you get truly infinite healing, or is it limited to 1/fight, which is just as easily RAW? Then there's the issue that everyone needs to take the feat, where-as other methods aren't necessarily as resource intensive(Touch of Healing and Draconic Aura only take 1 feat total, and ShSunNinja is a 1 level dip + race choice) There's also the issue that your AC probably won't have maneuvers, meaning that you'll still need limited resources to use on him.


This is a fairly common misconception about the N.E.D. I can't speak for the ongoing lethality of the duo dungeon, since that was designed by T.S., but characters have cleared the early floors of the normal dungeon with nothing more than a potion of lesser vigor.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with having infinite healing, it's just terribly overstated as a necessity in the N.E.D.

Good thing I only said he'd want it, rather than stating anything about what is necessary.

Fortuna
2010-05-16, 05:59 PM
Hm. I didn't think of the animal companion. Decisions, decisions...

Can you get an animal companion to drink a potion? That would help, at any rate.

And whether Vital Recovery is infinite or per fight, 4 points of damage per fight is still more than a third of my hit points.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 06:31 PM
well, except trained/tame bearsShows what you know.

They're just waiting for the opportune moment.

Fortuna
2010-05-18, 12:05 AM
OK, we've hit a snag. That snag being, I can't find any way to avoid being useless in a fight. Awesome as swordsage is, I can't afford to invest much in strength easily. As it stands, my character (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=208385) deals only 1d4+3 damage, at a +2 to hit. I'm loath to play a straight swordsage because that will eat into our limited gold for outfitting me. What should we do?

Jarian
2010-05-18, 12:26 AM
Consider a Swindlespitter. It's less of an off-tank than your riding dog, but it has an at-will AoE blinding poison attack.

Also, look into the Elemental Companion ACF to get an Earth Elemental to Earth Glide through the floor to give you an idea of what's coming up.

As far as your particular problem goes, you don't really have many options if you're set on the Swordsage side of things. Personally, I'd switch that for Wizard with Precocious Apprentice (Some 2nd level Fire spell) and Fiery Burst for an at-will 2d6 fire damage attack.

If you're dead set on Swordsage, then you're probably just going to have to suck it up for now and be Swordsage-y. Island of Blades stance to constantly flank stuff, Shadow Blade Technique + Burning Blade for pew pew, Clinging Shadow Strike and Stone Bones for the off-turns. You should probably plow through encounters before you run out of maneuvers.

You can always rebuild your character for a higher floor, so just use what works right now and worry about the later stuff, well, later.

Fortuna
2010-05-18, 12:50 AM
Unfortunately, I don't have access to Swindlespitter, nor do I own whatever supplements provide Fiery Burst and Elemental Companion.

Where does it say you can rebuild at each level?

Jarian
2010-05-18, 12:56 AM
...you may restart with a new character at any save point of your choosing, using the appropriate level and wealth for that floor.

It's been there since the beginning as far as I can tell.

Fortuna
2010-05-18, 01:02 AM
Oh, I see. I shall have to confer with nolispe, in that case.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-18, 10:37 AM
You do, however, start at less gold and XP than you would have had had you completed the previous floor with that character.

As for the deeps: Why are you using unarmed strike? I thought there was a wood that druids could use that basically could be used as any normal weapon.

But as a swordsage, between Burning blade, Shadow blade technique, clinging shadow strike, etc, etc, you could get some extra damage quite easily there.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 11:06 AM
As for the deeps: Why are you using unarmed strike? I thought there was a wood that druids could use that basically could be used as any normal weapon.Why would you bother with special wooden weapons, just use the normal ones.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-18, 11:23 AM
Oh yeah, it's the armor that can't be metal.

Jarian
2010-05-18, 11:58 AM
Oh yeah, it's the armor that can't be metal.

Druids of Mielikki would like to have a word with you.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-18, 12:09 PM
Exception, meet rule :smalltongue:

Philistine
2010-05-18, 12:15 PM
OK, we've hit a snag. That snag being, I can't find any way to avoid being useless in a fight. Awesome as swordsage is, I can't afford to invest much in strength easily. As it stands, my character (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=208385) deals only 1d4+3 damage, at a +2 to hit. I'm loath to play a straight swordsage because that will eat into our limited gold for outfitting me. What should we do?

Why take Sudden Recovery over Adaptive Style? Recovering one maneuver once per day seems greatly inferior to recovering all your maneuvers - and re-choosing which ones are readied - whenever you feel the need, even if it is a Swift action instead of taking a full round.

Also, you might ask whether you can get the BAB prereq on Weapon Finesse waived (because it's a silly requirement) and substitute that for Shadow Blade - as a Swordsage most of your damage should be coming from Strikes anyway, so the boost to attack would be more helpful than the boost to damage.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 12:58 PM
Also, you might ask whether you can get the BAB prereq on Weapon Finesse waived (because it's a silly requirement) and substitute that for Shadow Blade - as a Swordsage most of your damage should be coming from Strikes anyway, so the boost to attack would be more helpful than the boost to damage.Intuitive Strike from BoED gets you Wis to hit instead of Str.

2xMachina
2010-05-18, 01:17 PM
Unfortunately, in Neverending Dungeon, BoXD is banned. (Both V and E)

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 01:52 PM
The best 2 man party for a dungeon like this is as follows:

Race: Grey Elf or Kalashtar (I prefer kalashtar here)
Class: Wizard (Abjurer) 20//Psion (Egoist 20)

and

Race: Human or Buoman (Buoman wins my vote here)
Class: Cloistered Cleric 20//Swordsage 20

Y: The Abjurer//Egoist buffs the Cleric//Swordsage, who tanks, while the Cleric//Swordsage buffs and heals the Abjurer//Psion, who by now is in his 24 headed Omnihydra form