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Lord Loss
2010-05-15, 07:46 PM
I thought of pitting my players against a Getsalt boss (my players are non-getsalt). I won't go into details about why the NPC would be getsalt, but I'm wondering:

In a non-getsalt campaign, what would be the CR of a getsalt character compared to a non-gestalt one?

Boci
2010-05-15, 07:58 PM
Anything from +1 (fighter/barbarian) to +3 (wizard/factotum).

Icewraith
2010-05-15, 07:59 PM
It can really depend.

On one hand, a gestalt caster usually has MAD and can still only cast 1-2 spells per round, but if they have a few rounds to buff they can get ridiculous quite quickly. The caster still has the same number of actions so you don't see a big increase in spell volume unless you're in a very high optimization game where casters are abusing actions with celerity et. al..

On the other hand you can stack damage bonuses to significantly improve a number of melee classes, especially monk by gestalting it with a full BAB class. Kung Fu Genius Monk//Warblade can get ridiculous, for example. The overall bonuses and extra bad save coverage are probably worth +1 or +2 cr.

Lord Loss
2010-05-15, 08:04 PM
I forgot to mention: Neither of the classes will be fullcasters, one will most likely be rogue.

Boci
2010-05-15, 08:08 PM
I forgot to mention: Neither of the classes will be fullcasters, one will most likely be rogue.

Assuming the other is some full BAB melee class like the fighter or the barbarian, I'd say high +1 CR low +2.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 08:11 PM
Get salt? I thought you were supposed to jaunt over to borrow a cup of sugar?

...I kid.

Anyway, it really does depend fully on which classes are gestalted, and your ability to optimize. Using factotum (with full Int focus) and an Int-based class (especially psion or wizard) can devastate entire parties anywhere close to their CR, especially in later levels (a level 10 factotum//wizard/PrC could potentially annihilate many CR 20 creatures, and even some level 20 parties). Monk combined with fighter? Not so much.

Tell us what level your party is playing at, what they're playing, and their general optimization levels, and what you want the role of your NPC to be, and we should be able to help you figure out the sweet spot for your NPC's gestaltedness.

megabyter5
2010-05-15, 08:17 PM
Must resist... urge... to... mock spelling... GAH!

I'M PRETTY SURE IT DOESN'T HELP THE VILLAIN IN COMBAT IF HE GET SALT!!!1!

...I'm so sorry... Many gestalt builds emphasize the abilities of one class over another. For example, if one half is rogue, and the other half is (in effect) just a set of complementary abilities like full BAB, good fort or will saves, or something along those lines, my suggestion would be to add the tier of the non-primary half of the progression to the CR.

Icewraith
2010-05-16, 12:43 AM
If a lot of the BBEG's wealth is invested in salt, you can probably bump the CR down by 1 or 2 since he'll have significantly less equipment to threaten the pcs with btw :p

Greenish
2010-05-16, 12:48 AM
If a lot of the BBEG's wealth is invested in salt, you can probably bump the CR down by 1 or 2 since he'll have significantly less equipment to threaten the pcs with btw :pSalt is pretty heavy. Hulking Hurler much?

Ravens_cry
2010-05-16, 12:53 AM
What do you call an old sailor with a gun?
A salt with a deadly weapon.:smalltongue:
sneak attack fighter//monk would be an easy way to dish out a lot of damage, but probably isn't quite boss material.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-16, 11:17 AM
Since you want Rogue...

Rogue//Crusader!

Rogue-20//Hexblade-3/Crusader-17. So you'll have Evasion and Mettle!
Tashalatora Monk-1/Psychic Rogue-18//Hexblade-3/Crusader-17. (I personally disagree with the idea you can get Tashalatora without any Monk levels...)

Or, if you really like Fighter Bonus Feats...

Fighter//Feat Rogue! 22 Fighter Bonus Feats! :smalleek:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-16, 11:25 AM
Since you want Rogue...

Rogue//Crusader!

Rogue-20//Hexblade-3/Crusader-17. So you'll have Evasion and Mettle!
Tashalatora Monk-1/Psychic Rogue-18//Hexblade-3/Crusader-17. (I personally disagree with the idea you can get Tashalatora without any Monk levels...)

Or, if you really like Fighter Bonus Feats...

Fighter//Feat Rogue! 22 Fighter Bonus Feats! :smalleek:

Technically, the latter would require one level of another class at level 1, to stagger the progressions. Otherwise you could run into the Gestalt prohibition of getting the same class feature (in this case "fighter bonus feat" overlapped every 2 levels. So, Fighter X//Swashbuckler 1/Feat Rogue X-1 would work.

Eloel
2010-05-16, 11:28 AM
1: Go Thrallherd for expandable minions
2: Be a caster of some kind for Flesh to Salt spell.
3: Saltify your minions.
4: Sell the salt
5: Break all WBL and be +infinite CR, thanks to infinite cash.

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 11:49 AM
I assumed it was spelled Getsalt and was an obscure reference I wasn't getting. (How do we spell it Gestalt? Getstalt? Getstalt?)

The Party is Lvl 7

1) Barbarian

2) Bard-Barian (see Homebrew Forums)

3) Avatar of Shadow (Variation of Rich Burlew's Champion Class)

4) Rogue

V.S

Rogue//Some melee class

shadow_archmagi
2010-05-16, 11:54 AM
"Gestalt"

Gestalt psychology (German: Gestalt - "essence or shape of an entity's complete form") of the Berlin School is a theory of mind and brain positing that the operational principle of the brain is holistic, parallel, and analog, with self-organizing tendencies. The phrase "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts" is often used when explaining Gestalt theory.


In short, "Gestalt" in Western culture is a vague wishy-washy word that has meanings like

"One thing, made of parts"
"Parts act as one to become thing"
"A combination of old ideas to become new, different one"


ENGLISH MAJOR AWAY!

The Rabbler
2010-05-16, 12:04 PM
you spelled gestalt incorrectly in the OP. Getsalt is an action in which someone contracts and extends their muscles in such a manner that allows that person to pick up a salt shaker.

anyway, what is it that you're looking for out of your boss? do you want him to be a tactician? do you want him to be a warlord? do you want him to rain down magical death on the party?

also, how optimized is the party? you mentioned the classes, but the power of those classes can vary greatly depending on how optimized they are.

but mixing gestalt with non-gestalt is usually a bad idea. It makes NPCs with either a lot of adaptivity or a ton of damage. just my 2cp.


anyway, if you still want to do it, for that party I'd suggest a tripping build.
warblade 5/Crusader 1//factotum 3/fighter 2 would work pretty well, with the Thicket of Blades stance, improved trip, a spiked chain, combat reflexes (with a high dex, of course), some great maneuvers, and some tasty, tasty inspiration points.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-16, 12:15 PM
you spelled gestalt incorrectly in the OP. Getsalt is an action in which someone contracts and extends their muscles in such a manner that allows that person to pick up a salt shaker.


This is so far, the best one on getsalt 'til now.

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 12:18 PM
She will be the leader of a Cult to some Elder Evil. Sneaky, Tricky and powerful in melee.

Race is changeling, by the way.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-16, 12:22 PM
Is it possible a Rogue // Full Caster? Maybe sorcerer?

I was thinking to something increasing her maneuverability. Use battlefield control to separate them, and buffs like invisibility to kill them.

The great problem is, you should raise her level at least to 12 (:smalleek:) if you want to avoid precious SAs wasted against two uncanny dodges.

Not to advocate player screwing - an even better idea could be let the player enjoy their class features.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-16, 12:29 PM
Melee Changeling? This begs for the Warshaper PrC. Immune to Stun, Crits (and thus, sneak attacks), +4 Str & Con, Reach and Fast Healing 2 essentially all the time? Yes, please! :smallbiggrin:

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 12:33 PM
Melee Changeling? This begs for the Warshaper PrC. Immune to Stun, Crits (and thus, sneak attacks), +4 Str & Con, Reach and Fast Healing 2 essentially all the time? Yes, please! :smallbiggrin:

What book is warshaper from? If I have it, I'll look into it.

Amphetryon
2010-05-16, 12:42 PM
What book is warshaper from? If I have it, I'll look into it.

Complete Warrior.

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 12:44 PM
I have it, then! I'll take a quick look!

EDIT: What's the french name? I'm having trouble finding it in my book, which is french...

The Rabbler
2010-05-16, 01:05 PM
Melee Changeling? This begs for the Warshaper PrC. Immune to Stun, Crits (and thus, sneak attacks), +4 Str & Con, Reach and Fast Healing 2 essentially all the time? Yes, please! :smallbiggrin:

remember, though, the party is level 7 and this is going to be a gestalt. this creature will be crazily strong as it is, so it can't be higher level than the party, at the very least. as such, only one or two levels could actually be taken in warshaper before you hit that level limit.

Vauron
2010-05-16, 01:08 PM
For example, if one half is rogue, and the other half is (in effect) just a set of complementary abilities like full BAB, good fort or will saves, or something along those lines, my suggestion would be to add the tier of the non-primary half of the progression to the CR.

How does this make sense? It just doesn't seem right to me that, say, Binder, would increase the CR less than commoner. (2-3 vs 6)

Divide by Zero
2010-05-16, 01:13 PM
Technically, the latter would require one level of another class at level 1, to stagger the progressions. Otherwise you could run into the Gestalt prohibition of getting the same class feature (in this case "fighter bonus feat" overlapped every 2 levels. So, Fighter X//Swashbuckler 1/Feat Rogue X-1 would work.

Gestalt doesn't work that way. The progression matters, not the specific level, and you get the faster of the two progressions. So if you have "fighter feat every two levels" on one side, and "fighter feat every two levels" on the other side, guess what you get?

aivanther
2010-05-16, 01:18 PM
Warshaper is the last prestige class in complete warrior (page 89), don't know the french name.

I would do something like rogue//Warblade/warshaper

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 01:29 PM
The villain will be recurring. Also, what are a warshaper's class features? Does the picture depict a woman holding a sword in one hand, the other hand is big, blue, scaled and 4 fingered?

Boci
2010-05-16, 01:30 PM
How does this make sense? It just doesn't seem right to me that, say, Binder, would increase the CR less than commoner. (2-3 vs 6)

He probably means invert it. 6=1, 2=5 ect.


The villain will be recurring. Also, what are a warshaper's class features? Does the picture depict a woman holding a sword in one hand, the other hand is big, blue, scaled and 4 fingered?

Yes that it. They gain a bonus to strength and con, +5ft reach, natural attacks, fast healing and greater ability to change shape.

Mongoose87
2010-05-16, 02:09 PM
you spelled gestalt incorrectly in the OP. Getsalt is an action in which someone contracts and extends their muscles in such a manner that allows that person to pick up a salt shaker.

What, you've never played in a getsalt game, before? I've got a level 3 shaker/level 2 grinder.

The Rabbler
2010-05-16, 02:29 PM
What, you've never played in a getsalt game, before? I've got a level 3 shaker/level 2 grinder.

you are now my most favoritest person ever.

and for the fighter/feat rogue debate, UA states that if both classes have the same features, they acrue at the rate of the class with the faster progression. feat rogues and fighters get feats at the same rate, so you would only get one feat/two levels from only one side. staggering it doesn't change this either. a fighter/psywar, on the other hand, would get both fighter bonus feats and psywar bonus feats, as the feat pool available to both is different; ergo, they're different class features.

Boci
2010-05-16, 02:31 PM
What, you've never played in a getsalt game, before? I've got a level 3 shaker/level 2 grinder.

Oh come on. Could you at least TRY not to use the most obviously broken combo available? The salt pan is often written off because people just assume you can buy salt in the shops, but my DM likes to challange us.

Worira
2010-05-16, 02:38 PM
Honestly, people overestimate shaker/grinder. Sure, they can put out a ton of seasoning-per-round, but saltwellers just totally break Salt By Level.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-16, 02:45 PM
Gestalt doesn't work that way. The progression matters, not the specific level, and you get the faster of the two progressions. So if you have "fighter feat every two levels" on one side, and "fighter feat every two levels" on the other side, guess what you get?

That assumes that you consider Fighter Feats to be a progression, rather than being independent class features- which while valid, does make Feat Rogue/Fighter completely pointless.



Also....Best. Thread. Derail. Ever.

On that note, I run a strictly core-kitchen-cabinet game, but one of my players keeps insisting that I let him use a salt substitute. It may be a healthier alternative, but will it break the flavor and/or recommended daily intake of my campaign?

The Rabbler
2010-05-16, 02:55 PM
just to throw in a little spice, I decided to roll myself a seasoned veteran and he's turning out quite well. he's a shaker 5/seasoned veteran 4//grinder 9 and I've been abusing the oregano loophole and the paprika trick (don't tell my chef) to make the spicenator: king of seasonings.


On that note, I run a strictly core-kitchen-cabinet game, but one of my players keeps insisting that I let him use a salt substitute. It may be a healthier alternative, but will it break the flavor and/or recommended daily intake of my campaign?

the kitchen cabinet is the only balanced spicerack out there. as soon as you add in kitchen settings and cookbooks, everything gets spoiled. perfect example: sweet-sweet or the S.A.L.T. And let's not forget the ginger. I still shudder as I remember what that did to my last meal.

Kylarra
2010-05-16, 03:13 PM
I heard that the new Tome of Seasonings expansion makes mundane spices more palatable. However, I also heard that they are stronger out of the box than the regular ones as well...

The Glyphstone
2010-05-16, 03:20 PM
Don't allow the Book of Nine Spices in any campaign you run, it's horribly overpowered and cheesy compared to the core kitchen cabinet ingredients.

Boci
2010-05-16, 03:29 PM
Don't allow the Book of Nine Spices in any campaign you run, it's horribly overpowered and cheesy compared to the core kitchen cabinet ingredients.

Cheese? I can't find any of that in Book of Nine Spices. Surely you mean Frigid Fridge. The cheese in that book isn’t actually that bad, although if you are using One with Ingredient from Primordial Soup, the grater technically allows you grate yourself, thereby easily bypassing most traps the chef will ever throw at you.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-16, 03:35 PM
I have to say that I much prefer Oriental Adventures in Cooking to flavor my games... Especially with their expansion in the various kinds of Pepper.

Sure, some people say that Soy Sauce is just a liquid version of Salt... but really, just look at the flavour text.

Octopus Jack
2010-05-16, 04:03 PM
someone needs to write up rules for this "Getsalt" system now!

Lord Loss
2010-05-16, 04:09 PM
I changed the title... :smallbiggrin:.

A getsalt system...

Player: I swing at the Mutant Rotten Cabbage with my +7 Fork.

Master Chef: Roll Damage

Player: 16!

Master Chef: Does it have any enchantments? It's got Spice Resistance!

Player: It's got Tofu Residue on it.

Drat. Okay, Danny Brocoli stabs the Cabbage who falls to the ground, defeated...

The Rabbler
2010-05-16, 05:52 PM
I changed the title... :smallbiggrin:.

A getsalt system...

Player: I swing at the Mutant Rotten Cabbage with my +7 Fork.

Master Chef: Roll Damage

Player: 16!

Master Chef: Does it have any enchantments seasoning? It's got Spice Resistance!

Player: It's got Tofu Residue on it.

Master Chef: Drat. Okay, Danny Brocoli stabs the Cabbage who falls to the ground, defeated...
fix'd

Player 2: watch out! that cucumbrian pickle-mancer is going to cast Brine on the cabbage next turn!

Player 1: crap, do you have any dill resistance?

Player 2: only two pickles worth... looks like I have to use Summon Fat Guy.

Player 3: wait, no, save it for the BBEF. I'll use Freezerburn with a quickened OMNOM to finish it off.

Master Chef: you defeat the pickle-mancer and among the piles of loot, you find a +2 spudware spoon of mashing. I assume you'll be giving that to the tatertank?

Player 4: that would be pointless. I just got enough XP to level up and I'm going into the mashed master PrF. on the first level, all of my utensils are treated as spudware and at level 2 they all get mashing.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-16, 06:21 PM
Beware the BBEG, though.

A 3rd level Grinder with templates and grafts. Rock, with Half-Sea and Half-Table templates, combined with the "When it Rains, It pours" ACF.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-16, 06:27 PM
Beware the BBEG, though.

A 3rd level Grinder with templates and grafts. Rock, with Half-Sea and Half-Table templates, combined with the "When it Rains, It pours" ACF.


You know, not all groups play at that level of recipe optimization - most are quite happy with a plain old glass shaker of NaCl for their end-boss.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-16, 06:48 PM
You know, not all groups play at that level of recipe optimization - most are quite happy with a plain old glass shaker of NaCl for their end-boss.

Yeah, but you need a much bigger shaker to present a viable chance of recipe ruination, then. Something like a Sam's Club bargain box. And if you're getting into Epic levels of seasoning, things just get silly.

Jarian
2010-05-16, 06:53 PM
Don't allow the Book of Nine Spices in any campaign you run, it's horribly overpowered and cheesy compared to the core kitchen cabinet ingredients.

I've played with the Bo9S extensively, and I haven't really run into any cheese problems. Of course, a few of my players have complained about some of the recipes in there, saying that they were much too Eastern-flavored for their liking. I told them that they just needed to swap of a few of the spices to make them very Westernized, but they seemed to think that it went against the spirit of the recipes. I dunno. *shrug*

Now, if you went Saltpriest/Divine Shaker/Ruby Salticator you could have some problems with salty cheese, but it's the Head Chef's right to veto any recipe that ruins the meal. Besides, some kitchens create meals like that very routinely, and their patrons seem to enjoy them. It's all about the proper balance of the chef's vision and the expectations they're supposed to meet.

Ozymandias9
2010-05-16, 07:35 PM
My biggest problem with Getsalt is that I have a player who is allergic to pepper. Sure, I can just let her use grains of paradise, but then the rest of the players feel like they should be able to take obscure prestige spices too. I can let her use Allspice instead, but then I just feel like I'm nerfing her in any non-Indian cuisine.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 12:16 AM
That assumes that you consider Fighter Feats to be a progression, rather than being independent class features- which while valid, does make Feat Rogue/Fighter completely pointless.

As much as I hate to take away from the epic derail, the fighter bonus feat description says "At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th)."

By a strict reading, you might be able to argue for getting the first two feats twice, but the rest is definitely a progression.

Milskidasith
2010-05-17, 12:28 AM
Yo dawgs, I heard you liked to getsalt in your gestalt so I put salt in your gestalt and jest in your getsalt so you can getsalt while you gestalt and gestalt while you getsalt.

Worst use of a meme ever?

:smallcool:

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 12:30 AM
Yo dawgs, I heard you liked to getsalt in your gestalt so I put salt in your gestalt and jest in your getsalt so you can getsalt while you gestalt and gestalt while you getsalt.

Worst use of a meme ever?

:smallcool:

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/5/10/633775495275400070-DoubleFacepalm.jpg