[3.5] The Cost of Magic

[Drakevarg]

A mechanic I've been playing around with mostly because I find it somewhat interesting. It's a campaign-specific mechanic, but I'm posting it here mostly just to get opinions/critiques.

The basic concept is thus; in the campaign setting I'm creating, Arcane Magic is outside the realm of the gods - it's a sort of gap in creation. Unfortunately, when playing around with what measures up to be a glitch in the universe, don't be suprised when unearthly monsteres crawl out of the holes in reality and eat you.

When I started out with the idea, it was merely going to be a horror-story type thing that had no real bearing on the plot; as arcane spellcasters got more powerful, they would get stalked by a Slender Man-esque entity that never actually DID anything, just showed up, **** with everyones heads, and wander off.

As I considered the idea more, I decided to add to it, explaining the existance of Aberrations as the side effect of arcane magic. I wanted to do this because I consider Wizards annoyingly OP, and being routinely devoured by ungodly monstrosities might deter rampant spellcasting. (Basically, any time they cast a spell, they'd have to weigh the costs. Sure, they COULD just magic away the problem before them, but on the other hand that could summon Cthulhu, and nobody wants that.)

As for the functionality of the mechanic, it works like this;

Any time a spell is cast, there is a (Spell Level)% chance of triggering a Rift.
If a Rift isn't triggered, that number is added to the Rift Score.
The next time a spell is cast, the chance of a Rift opening is (Spell Level + Rift Score)%. Again, if no Rift opens, it accumulates.
These rifts are proportionate in size to the power of the spell cast. Roll a d% on the appropriate level. When a Rift opens, the caster' Rift Score returns to zero.
The Abberration rolled appears nearby (exact location DM's disgression) at the same time that the spell is cast.
Each day, the caster's Rift Score is decreased by their Caster Level.

Here are the encounter tables:

Normal Encounter Table
Level 1
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Choker|--

Small Air Elemental|--

Small Earth Elemental|--

Small Fire Elemental|--

Thoqqua|--[/table]

Level 2
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Juvenile Arrowhawk|--

Level 1 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Carrion Crawler|--

Medium Air Elemental|--

Medium Earth Elemental|--

Medium Fire Elemental|--

Ettercap|--

Grick|--

Level 1 Janni Rogue|True Neutral

Mimic|--

Otyugh|--

Rust Monster|--

Level 1 Flamebrother Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Minor Xorn|--

2 Level 1|--[/table]

Level 3
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Adult Arrowhawk|--

Belker|--

Cloaker|--

Level 1 Djinni Fighter|Chaotic Good

Large Air Elemental|--

Large Earth Elemental|--

Large Fire Elemental|--

Level 1 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Gibbering Mouther|--

Rast|--

Level 1 Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Will-O'-Wisp|--

Xorn|--

2 Level 2|--

Level 3 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 3 Janni Rogue|True Neutral[/table]

Level 4
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Elder Arrowhawk|--

Destrachan|--

Drider|--

Level 1 Efreeti Fighter|Lawful Evil

Huge Air Elemental|--

Huge Earth Elemental|--

Huge Fire Elemental|--

Level 1 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Invisible Stalker|--

Phasm|--

Squamous Spewer|--

Umber Hulk|--

Elder Xorn|--

2 Level 3|--

Level 3 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 3 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 3 Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Level 5 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 5 Janni Rogue/Wizard|True Neutral[/table]

Level 5
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Delver|--

Greater Air Elemental|--

Greater Earth Elemental|--

Greater Fire Elemental|--

Level 1 Noble Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

2 Level 4|--

Level 3 Efreeeti Fighter/Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 3 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 5 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 7 Janni Rogue/Wizard|True Neutral[/table]

Level 6
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Elder Air Elemental|--

Elder Earth Elemental|--

Elder Fire Elemental|--

2 Level 5|--

Level 3 Noble Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Level 5 Efreeti Fighter/Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 7 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 9 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral[/table]

Level 7
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Level 1 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Truly Horrid Umber Hulk|--

2 Level 6|--

Level 5 Noble Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Level 7 Efreeti Fighter/Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 11 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 11 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral[/table]

Level 8
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

2 Level 7|--

Level 3 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Noble Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Level 9 Efreeti Eldritch Knight|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 13 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 13 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral[/table]

Level 9
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

2 Level 8|--

Level 5 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Noble Salamander Fighter|Neutral Evil

Level 11 Efreeti Eldritch Knight|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 13 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 15 Azer Fighter|Lawful Neutral

Level 15 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral[/table]


Subaquatic Encounter List:
Level 1
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Choker|--

Small Air Elemental|--

Small Earth Elemental|--

Small Water Elemental|--

Level 1 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil
Level 1 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 2
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Juvenile Arrowhawk|--

Carrion Crawler|--

Medium Air Elemental|--

Medium Earth Elemental|--

Medium Water Elemental|--

Ettercap|--

Grick|--

Level 1 Janni Rogue|True Neutral

Mimic|--

Otyugh|--

Rust Monster|--

Juvenile Tojanida|--

Minor Xorn|--

2 Level 1|--

Level 3 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 3 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 3
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Adult Arrowhawk|--

Belker|--

Cloaker|--

Level 1 Djinni Fighter|Chaotic Good

Large Air Elemental|--

Large Earth Elemental|--

Large Water Elemental|--

Level 1 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Gibbering Mouther|--

Adult Tojanida|--

Will-O'-Wisp|--

Xorn|--

2 Level 2|--

Level 3 Janni Rogue|True Neutral

Level 5 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 4
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Level 1 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Elder Arrowhawk|--

Chuul|--

Destrachan|--

Drider|--

Huge Air Elemental|--

Huge Earth Elemental|--

Huge Water Elemental|--

Level 1 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Invisible Stalker|--

Phasm|--

Squamous Spewer|--

Elder Tojanida|--

Umber Hulk|--

Elder Xorn|--

2 Level 3|--

Level 3 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 3 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Janni Rogue/Wizard|True Neutral

Level 7 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 5
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Delver|--

Greater Air Elemental|--

Greater Earth Elemental|--

Greater Water Elemental|--

2 Level 4|--

Level 3 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 3 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 5 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Janni Rogue/Wizard|True Neutral

Level 9 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 6
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Elder Air Elemental|--

Elder Earth Elemental|--

Elder Water Elemental|--

2 Level 5|--

Level 5 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 7 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 11 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 7
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Level 1 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Truly Horrid Umber Hulk|--

2 Level 6|--

Level 7 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 11 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 13 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 13 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 8
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

2 Level 7|--

Level 3 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 13 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 15 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 15 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 9
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

2 Level 8|--

Level 5 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 13 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 15 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 17 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 17 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]


Aquatic Encounter List:
Level 1
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Choker|--

Small Air Elemental|--

Small Water Elemental|--

Level 1 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil
Level 1 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 2
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Juvenile Arrowhawk|--

Carrion Crawler|--

Medium Air Elemental|--

Medium Water Elemental|--

Ettercap|--

Grick|--

Level 1 Janni Rogue|True Neutral

Mimic|--

Otyugh|--

Rust Monster|--

Juvenile Tojanida|--

2 Level 1|--

Level 3 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 3 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 3
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Adult Arrowhawk|--

Belker|--

Cloaker|--

Level 1 Djinni Fighter|Chaotic Good

Large Air Elemental|--

Large Water Elemental|--

Level 1 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Gibbering Mouther|--

Adult Tojanida|--

Will-O'-Wisp|--

2 Level 2|--

Level 3 Janni Rogue|True Neutral

Level 5 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 4
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Level 1 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Elder Arrowhawk|--

Chuul|--

Destrachan|--

Drider|--

Huge Air Elemental|--

Huge Water Elemental|--

Level 1 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Invisible Stalker|--

Phasm|--

Squamous Spewer|--

Elder Tojanida|--

Umber Hulk|--

2 Level 3|--

Level 3 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 3 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Janni Rogue/Wizard|True Neutral

Level 7 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 5
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Greater Air Elemental|--

Greater Water Elemental|--

2 Level 4|--

Level 3 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 3 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 5 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Janni Rogue/Wizard|True Neutral

Level 9 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 6
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Elder Air Elemental|--

Elder Water Elemental|--

2 Level 5|--

Level 5 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 5 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Djinni Fighter/Wizard|Chaotic Good

Level 7 Gauth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 11 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 7
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

Level 1 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Truly Horrid Umber Hulk|--

2 Level 6|--

Level 7 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 7 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 11 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 13 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 13 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 8
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

2 Level 7|--

Level 3 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 9 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 13 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 15 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 15 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

Level 9
{table=head]Creature Summoned|Alignment

2 Level 8|--

Level 5 Beholder Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Aboleth Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 11 Illithid Wizard|Lawful Evil

Level 13 Djinni Eldritch Knight|Chaotic Good

Level 15 Janni Arcane Trickster|True Neutral

Level 17 Skum Fighter|Lawful Evil

Level 17 Triton Ranger|Neutral Good[/table]

NOTE: I am aware that many creatures are left without alignments. This is because for the purposes of this campaign, those creatures are effectively mindless, and will simply attack whatever is closest on sight. Creatures with alignments are "sentient" Aberrations, always have class levels, and may even wind up becoming recurring villains or somesuch.
-----

[lsfreak]

I don't think the flat-out being attacked is a good idea. In my mind, it means they'll be more likely to cast world-shattering spells, just because then they only need to cast a single spell to end the whole encounter and minimize the chances of opening a rift (and in the process, making all their allies feel rather worthless). It also means that, chances are, they'll be interrupted every night by low-mid levels (punishing the whole party for even bringing a wizard). And there's the problem that they chain them - cast a spell, sleep, open a rift, and then cast a spell to kill that only to open another rift.

Basically, arcane casters just wouldn't exist in such a world, as they would almost all get eaten or die of sleep deprivation before even becoming adventurers. Any that live long enough to become adventurers won't be accepted by any adventuring party because it's suicide.

My opinion? If you're punishing the arcane because you don't like wizards, just cut the passive-aggressive stuff and ban them. If you want it to be an interesting part of the system, pull it back to the Slim Man type thing, with DM-dictated (not dice-dictated), rarer direct confrontations (that don't come across as 'arbitrary punishment because you chose the wrong class'). Like being dropped into a nightmare world, or going on quests (which benefit everyone) in order to remove the attention the caster has brought to himself. Something the players can enjoy, while being something the characters would be freaked out about. Arcane casters could exist in that kind of world, because many people probably won't know about the connection of magic to aberrations, or if they do they won't know it can actually do stuff to you. Everyone would just think that wizards have a habit of eventually going insane or vanishing.

[Temotei]

I tend to agree with Isfreak mostly.

A penalty that could work, however, would be a sort of "energy" system. Casting more spells than your energy threshold can take would make you fatigued or exhausted.

Tentative energy threshold formula: 3 + Constitution modifier

Pros:

Penalizes casters
Leaves the classes themselves unchanged
Makes casting classes focus on Constitution more, increasing MAD slightly


Cons:

Encourages raising Constitution to ridiculous heights so as to remove the penalty
Encourages high-level casting
Spells will be focused on breaking the game and destroying encounters instead of buffing the fighters, protection, etc.


A better idea would be to incorporate something more complicated so as to penalize by spell level instead of spells cast.

[Drakevarg]

Well, the last two Cons there are what I'm really trying to avert with these Rifts. I have no problems with Wizards existing, it's just that spells get so powerful that they make Fighters look laughably insignificant by comparison.

Consider say, "Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit". Sometimes, summoning a horde of angels is entirely appropriate. Most of the time, it just makes things less fun for everyone else. Occassionally being attacked by a Lovecraftian horror for your rampant angel summoning seems like a good way to even the score a bit.

The thing I AM considering changing about this, however, is the criteria for the strength of the Aberrations. For example, this one arbitrarily summons a 13 CR creature for any spell cast by a 13th level mage. Even if it's Light or Magic Missle. More appropriate I think would be to make it so low-level spells summon lower-level Aberrations, but in a way that keeps the encounters level-appropriate. (Otherwise they ultimately become laughably irrelevent.)

On the other hand, maybe they SHOULD become irrelevent. After all, at 15th level Burning Hands is as irrelevent to a Fighter as it is to a Wizard. Why should they be killed by a Beholder for a spell that doesn't really rob the rest of the part of any action?

*continues mumbling as he goes to alter the mechanic*

EDIT: Altered to summon Aberrations based on spell strength, not caster strength.

[Bergor Terraf]

How about adding a "rift score", something that tells to what extent reality has been shreded by a spellcaster.

Each spell cast increases that spellcasters rift score, higher level spells giving a greater increase. Each day without casting any spells decreases that score.

The greater your rift score, the greater the chances of opening a rift on the spot after casting a spell. The rift score would also, in conjonction with the power of the spellcaster, determine what comes out of the rift. Also, things other than creatures of nightmare could be interresting. For exemple, imagine a rift opening in the middle of a heated battle that acts as a mini black hole, trying to suck everything (and everyone) around into it.

You could also make feats or special ability that reduce the rift score from casting or increase the lose of it per day spent not casting. Maybe even make spells taht interact with rifts (open one, close one) or with the creature coming out (imagine a prc that specialize in opening rifts and controling the creatures that come out like a kind of summonning ritual).

[Drakevarg]

How about adding a "rift score", something that tells to what extent reality has been shreded by a spellcaster.

Each spell cast increases that spellcasters rift score, higher level spells giving a greater increase. Each day without casting any spells decreases that score.

The greater your rift score, the greater the chances of opening a rift on the spot after casting a spell. The rift score would also, in conjonction with the power of the spellcaster, determine what comes out of the rift. Also, things other than creatures of nightmare could be interresting. For exemple, imagine a rift opening in the middle of a heated battle that acts as a mini black hole, trying to suck everything (and everyone) around into it.

You could also make feats or special ability that reduce the rift score from casting or increase the lose of it per day spent not casting. Maybe even make spells taht interact with rifts (open one, close one) or with the creature coming out (imagine a prc that specialize in opening rifts and controling the creatures that come out like a kind of summonning ritual).

Interesting idea. I'll have to mull it over a bit.

*after mulling it over a bit*

Alright, nothing formulated yet, but here's my idea; any time a spell is cast, there is a (Spell Level)% chance of a Rift opening on the spot. If a Rift isn't triggered, that number is added to the Rift Score. The next time a spell is cast, the chance of a Rift opening is (Spell Level + Rift Score)%. Again, if no Rift opens, it accumulates.

This goes on until a Rift DOES open, at which point the appropriate Aberration is summoned and the Rift Score returns to zero.

For each day the Wizard goes without casting a spell, their Rift Score decreases by their Caster Level.

EDIT: Tweaked slightly, so that Rift triggering is practically nonexitant amongst low-level Wizards, while relatively commonplace at high-levels. (Caster Level + Spell Level)% Chance.

[Apalala]

Any reason why this only affects arcane magic? I generally have no qualms with bards and find druids and clerics to be hideously broken. Fine for a campaign feature, but doesn't really address balance.

THREAD HIJACK

A good system for balancing out magics power would have real, immediate costs and as little bookkeeping as possible. Let's see.

1. Focus. Magic users of all types requires focus. The more powerful the spell, the more focus is required. There are two levels of focus, minor and major. Gaining minor focus is a move action. Gaining major focus is a standard action. Whenever you have minor focus, you can spend a second move action to gain major focus. To cast a spell of the highest level you know, you must currently have major focus, at which point the major focus is lost. To cast a spell of the second highest level you know, you must have at least minor focus. Casting such a spell with minor focuses means you have no focus, and casting a with major focus downgrades it to minor. To cast spells of lower levels, you are simply required to have a level of focus, and you do not lose this focus after casting the spell.

Bleh. Complicated and poorly worded. Oh well. Moving on.

2. Casting Defensively. If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you’re casting OR the highest attack bonus of any enemy threatening you, whichever is higher) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.

[Drakevarg]

Because arcane magic is effectively using godly power without the permission of a god. The Rifts are basically the gods' way of saying "Yeah, well **** you too, buddy."

I might come up with some sort of drawback to divine magic later, but Eldritch Rifts don't really work fluffwise for divine casting.

[Doppelganger]

Um, next question: why would a high level caster care? Blow off all of your spells in a city you don't like/are at war with or in the middle of the desert, and then greater teleport to another planet. Cthulu doesn't show up until after you've had a good nights sleep. And what about casters who don't sleep, like liches? Do their rifts never open, and so they can steamroller the party caster by blasting them? Or what about the aberation casters the rifts summon? Can they burn all their magic to try to summon help? Does this affect spell like abilities? Or magic items?
I think you might want to change the wording on this a little. Also, this could lead to very agrivating cascades. Anything a 20th level mage casts is going to summon a nasty one time in 5, so it's not unreasonable that every day the characters would be opening major rifts into the *insert name of horrible dimension were aberations come from here*. And if you realy meant, "Cthulu appears in a cloud of smoke and attacks" couldn't an unlucky party end up summoning more demons fighting the first one?

Oh, and as another two classes widely regarded as overpowered are divine, would it be unreasonable for divine casting to have an equivilant chance of attracting an outsider of opposite allignment?

[ninjaneer003]

i think that maybe a wizard would have a better chance of not opening these rifts at higher level. his experiance with the rifts have taught him ways to not tear them so easily. otherwise i really like this twist on the wizard of having actual consequences for f****** with reality

[Milskidasith]

This idea is pointless, especially with the recursive "You're going to open a rift when you open a rift" problem and the "If you don't bring a lot of bodyguards to kill stuff for you, you're going to get attacked every time you sleep" problem. It's pointlessly passive aggressive and makes any solo wizard an impossibility.

Not only that, but arcane magic being the power of the gods? What's divine magic, then? Arcane magic has always either been about force of will and natural talent (for sorcerers) or studying and bending/tearing/destroying the fabric of reality for wizards. It's not really about gods at all.

[Lord Loss]

This idea is pointless, especially with the recursive "You're going to open a rift when you open a rift" problem and the "If you don't bring a lot of bodyguards to kill stuff for you, you're going to get attacked every time you sleep" problem. It's pointlessly passive aggressive and makes any solo wizard an impossibility.

Not only that, but arcane magic being the power of the gods? What's divine magic, then? Arcane magic has always either been about force of will and natural talent (for sorcerers) or studying and bending/tearing/destroying the fabric of reality for wizards. It's not really about gods at all.

he didn't mean that arcane magic was granted by the gods. He meant that the gods get angry when people use magic because they want to be the only ones dispensing magic.

[KainStormhold]

I like this system, since it gives a good, albeit setting specific, means of keeping some of the crazier wizardly abilities from being used repeatedly. Especially with the change to make the rifts open on the spot.


i think that maybe a wizard would have a better chance of not opening these rifts at higher level. his experiance with the rifts have taught him ways to not tear them so easily.reality

This was kind of addressed above in that when the wizard doesn't cast his rift score goes down by his CL, which I think would mechanically recreate his experience in at least fixing the damage he's done. It does make sense though that the higher the spell level and caster level are, the greater the damage done to reality in making the effects would be. I think that some of the more powerful summoning spells, like Gate, should have an increased effect on the rift score just because they literally punch a hole between realities as it is, though the danger of what comes through that hole already might be more than enough of a mitigating factor.

This system is vaguely analogous to the paradox system for Mages in World of Darkness where the more they use magic to change reality, the more reality tries to backlash against them. If you keep blatantly defying reality's laws, and in the case of any world with gods they pretty much define reality anyway, reality is going to bite back for the sake of everyone who can't bend or break its rules.

[Mulletmanalive]

I actually use this sort of thing in my games, with the arcanists summoning things from beyond and the priests getting penalised as their gods withdraw luck from them for being excessive with the power given

I personally went for more of a "the more you do, the more likely you are to summon something you'll have to clean up later" with the monsters, so those in the know are always very dubious of arcanists [Pseudonatural Corrupted Chokers and Darkmantles being my favourite summon] because of what may end up replacing the threat they dealt with.

Having things leap out and gank you isn't a hugely enjoyable experience and it can either turn an encounter into a well oiled xp-grab or an absolute goat-screw.

As an example of being punished for using magic full stop, my current GM gave us all mages and a minion each. Every spell the mages cast [they can do both arcane and divine] has a flat 5% chance of aging the character a number of years equal to the spell level. A few bad rolls later and one of us is physically in his late thirties at level 2...

Given how lame spells actually are at that level, it's really, really frustrating...

[lsfreak]

I have no problems with Wizards existing, it's just that spells get so powerful that they make Fighters look laughably insignificant by comparison.
There is the same problem with both clerics and druids, but you're leaving them alone for the purposes of fluff. If you're going to complain about the power of magic, do it consistently, and just ban all 7/8/9th level spells and alter when new spell levels are available. You're also ignoring that a good wizard - even at high levels - uses his spells primarily to buff his allies or debuff his enemies, rather than just saying lolyoudie. Get rid of those buffs, and higher level encounters become much more dangerous, sometimes nigh-impossible.


On the other hand, maybe they SHOULD become irrelevent. After all, at 15th level Burning Hands is as irrelevent to a Fighter as it is to a Wizard. Why should they be killed by a Beholder for a spell that doesn't really rob the rest of the part of any action?
Lower-level spells tend to be the buffing spells that the fighter itself relies on. Haste, overland flight, glitterdust, solid fog. The stuff that keeps the fighter from being a splatter on the floor within a round or two, and lets the fighter splatter all the enemies. Punishing a wizard for casting them, punishes the fighter a lot more.

I'm still 100% against randomly summoning such things based on dice. A rift score is a step in the right direction, provided the wizard has access to how things are going rather than it being hidden from him. I still like the original idea much better, though, because it gives an atmosphere that summoning aberrations does not. A summoned aberration just becomes another random encounter: at best some XP, at worst OOC antipathy toward the wizard's player rather than the wizard himself. Some strange, distorted humanoid shape that's always just on the edge of their vision, being thrown into a nightmare realm for a day, searching out ways of suppressing their good friend's waxing madness - those are things both enjoyable and good storytelling. Another random encounter is neither.

[Bergor Terraf]

For the divine magic, you could make something like a Favor score. Each divine spellcaster has a favor score that represent his standing with his deity. It increases each level and after great acts dedicated to his god. Each time he casts a divine spell, it costs him favor (higher level spell, higher favor cost).

When you run out of favor, you can still cast spells, but it coasts you. Maybe HP, time or something flavorfull for each god. You could also make actions to regains favor (pray for an hour to regains caster level favor).

You regain your full favor score when you regain your spells.

Coming back to the arcane spellcasters, it would be cool if the rift score of a caster gives him some inconvinience to show that reality is stretched around him. Stuff ike always feeling cold (or hot), food tasting weird, his voice changing pitch at random, stuff like that.

[Drakevarg]

Lotta replies, so it'll take a few edits to adress them all.


Um, next question: why would a high level caster care? Blow off all of your spells in a city you don't like/are at war with or in the middle of the desert, and then greater teleport to another planet.

Cthulhu shows up near the caster, not near where the spell was cast.


Cthulu doesn't show up until after you've had a good nights sleep. And what about casters who don't sleep, like liches? Do their rifts never open, and so they can steamroller the party caster by blasting them?

Working on altering it to be an on-the-spot reaction.
It's an instantaneous backlash now.


Or what about the aberation casters the rifts summon? Can they burn all their magic to try to summon help?

Aberrations ARE the glitch, so they're immune to it's effects.


Does this affect spell like abilities?

No. Since those are inbred into the creature, the gods consider it kosher.


Or magic items?

No. For the purposes of the rift, the spell was cast during the item's creation. The magic item is treated as a spell with a really really long duration.
Gave it more thought. Items with a constant duration (Cloak of Charisma, things like that) are treated as spells with a duration of "permanent." As such the Rift backlash occurs when the item is made.

Items that cast spells themselves, such as wands or scrolls, are more just storing the magic for later use. As such those Rifts are triggered when the wand or scroll is used, not made.


I think you might want to change the wording on this a little. Also, this could lead to very agrivating cascades. Anything a 20th level mage casts is going to summon a nasty one time in 5, so it's not unreasonable that every day the characters would be opening major rifts into the *insert name of horrible dimension were aberations come from here*. And if you realy meant, "Cthulu appears in a cloud of smoke and attacks" couldn't an unlucky party end up summoning more demons fighting the first one?

This could be a problem, yeah... the Rift Score version works better in this regard, since it's based on spell strength only.


Oh, and as another two classes widely regarded as overpowered are divine, would it be unreasonable for divine casting to have an equivilant chance of attracting an outsider of opposite allignment?

I'm still working on a cosmic backlash for divine spellcasting. Minions of an opposing diety sound like a good one, but on the Nerull/Ehlonna axis it's a bit more difficult. (My campaign setting only has 4 gods, Corellon Larethian, Gruumsh, Nerull, and Ehlonna.) I suppose you could have undead or be randomly attacked by dire animals or somesuch...


i think that maybe a wizard would have a better chance of not opening these rifts at higher level. his experiance with the rifts have taught him ways to not tear them so easily. otherwise i really like this twist on the wizard of having actual consequences for f****** with reality

That's why their Rift Score goes down faster. I suppose I could alter it more, like make it a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) Check. Or make it be (Caster Level + INT Modifier).


I think that some of the more powerful summoning spells, like Gate, should have an increased effect on the rift score just because they literally punch a hole between realities as it is, though the danger of what comes through that hole already might be more than enough of a mitigating factor.

It punches a hole between planes, not realities. It's a fine distinction, but an important one. For example, you can't plane shift to the Aberration home plane. You can't use dismissal on a summoned Aberration. They sort of exist "outside the system". Like an imaginary number. Aberrations majored in Mind Screw, so they can do that. So, thank's to that distinction, summoning is no more of a relevent spell than any other.


There is the same problem with both clerics and druids, but you're leaving them alone for the purposes of fluff.

Working on it.


Lower-level spells tend to be the buffing spells that the fighter itself relies on. Haste, overland flight, glitterdust, solid fog. The stuff that keeps the fighter from being a splatter on the floor within a round or two, and lets the fighter splatter all the enemies. Punishing a wizard for casting them, punishes the fighter a lot more.

Part of why lower level spells are comparatively a low-risk deal. Especially since the Aberrations that get summoned are still based on the strength of the spell cast when the Rift Score was finally triggered. At a level when you cast meteor swarm, summoning a Choker as punishment for buffing out your Fighter with enlarge person is laughably irrelevent.


I still like the original idea much better, though, because it gives an atmosphere that summoning aberrations does not. A summoned aberration just becomes another random encounter: at best some XP, at worst OOC antipathy toward the wizard's player rather than the wizard himself. Some strange, distorted humanoid shape that's always just on the edge of their vision, being thrown into a nightmare realm for a day, searching out ways of suppressing their good friend's waxing madness - those are things both enjoyable and good storytelling. Another random encounter is neither.

It's all in the delivery. Besides, nothing stops me from doing both. God knows I'm sadistic enough.

[Drakevarg]

Finished the aquatic chart.

Sooner or later I'm gonna have to go buy the Aberration source book (can't remember the name). Of course, I also need Complete Warrior, Sandstorm, Frostburn, and God knows how many other books.

[The Mentalist]

Lords of Madness is the name you're looking for.


Also I think that with a good party all you've done is create an xp machine the likes of which I've never seen before, this is like a summon monster trap gone all sorts of funny.

[Drakevarg]

Lords of Madness is the name you're looking for.


Also I think that with a good party all you've done is create an xp machine the likes of which I've never seen before, this is like a summon monster trap gone all sorts of funny.

Assuming I hand out XP for them.

[Doppelganger]

If you don't, then you're making the party fight threats and use up reasources every day (at high levels) for no reward? If the caster uses, say, one charge from a wand, he's spending a fair chunk of gold, and not getting anything back. Or if the cleric in the party needs to heal the fighter afterwards, the whole system penalizes the characters, without even giving them XP. And it's realy strange to say, "you didn't learn anything from fighting that mind numbing horror who killed half the party. Sucks to be you, I guess." Maybe only give XP for ones who actualy do some damage?

[erikun]

My Suggestion: Make it part of the plot.

If you want arcane magic to be something that is causing significant problems with the world setting, why not just make it something that is causing significant problems with the world setting? You already have an interesting idea - the "Slim Man" showing up whenever arcana starts flying around. Perhaps nothing happens at first, but once the wizard starts casting 3rd level spells, he starts seeing this "Slim Man" out the corner of his eye. Nobody else ever sees him. With higher level spells, there's a chance he sticks around longer, perhaps long enough to communicate. It would be interesting when the wizard starts talking to himself.

As for why? Perhaps the gods formed the world with their magic, stabilizing it from the outside Far Realm. Arcana messes up the stability, thus allowing things to briefly appear. You'll want to chance some SLA though; the "bad guys" the party is fighting would likely be Arcana users, while anything else would have the "natural" Divine SLA.

The problem with this suggestion is that it discourages casual wizards (Fiery McFireball) and encourages wizard optimization (Incantrix o'Shadowcrafter). It discourages using smaller spells to buff the other party members, while encouraging using the highest level spells to end a fight as quickly as possible. Casting a few buffs on the party fighter - Enlarge Person, Bull Strength, Greater Magical Weapon - is actually more dangerous (9.8%) than just casting Gate (9%) to summon a Solar and deal with the problem. To use your Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit example, it is far better to just summon the angels again rather than trying to support the BMX Bandit.

There's also the problem that all the wizards and sorcerers are replaced by clerics and druids, which do the exact same thing.

[Drakevarg]

If you don't, then you're making the party fight threats and use up reasources every day (at high levels) for no reward? If the caster uses, say, one charge from a wand, he's spending a fair chunk of gold, and not getting anything back. Or if the cleric in the party needs to heal the fighter afterwards, the whole system penalizes the characters, without even giving them XP. And it's realy strange to say, "you didn't learn anything from fighting that mind numbing horror who killed half the party. Sucks to be you, I guess." Maybe only give XP for ones who actualy do some damage?

Actually, when I think about it harder, it's impossible to use this as a viable XP trap. Even if you spammed useless spells to summon more monsters, The chances of getting a monster on your first try is pretty slim. So by the time you finally summon a monster either a) you've used up all your high level spells, leaving you relatively defenseless against it, or b) you summoned it on a low-level spell, making the monster you summoned not even worth any XP at that point.


My Suggestion: Make it part of the plot.

If you want arcane magic to be something that is causing significant problems with the world setting, why not just make it something that is causing significant problems with the world setting? You already have an interesting idea - the "Slim Man" showing up whenever arcana starts flying around. Perhaps nothing happens at first, but once the wizard starts casting 3rd level spells, he starts seeing this "Slim Man" out the corner of his eye. Nobody else ever sees him. With higher level spells, there's a chance he sticks around longer, perhaps long enough to communicate. It would be interesting when the wizard starts talking to himself.

Truth be told, this was going to happen on top of the whole "being eaten by Cthulhu" thing anyway.


Casting a few buffs on the party fighter - Enlarge Person, Bull Strength, Greater Magical Weapon - is actually more dangerous (9.8%) than just casting Gate (9%) to summon a Solar and deal with the problem. To use your Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit example, it is far better to just summon the angels again rather than trying to support the BMX Bandit.

Keep in mind that triggering a Rift with enlarge person would only summon a Choker, maybe a Skum if you're near a lake. Comparatively, gate may very well summon an 11th-Level Illithid Wizard.


There's also the problem that all the wizards and sorcerers are replaced by clerics and druids, which do the exact same thing.

I'm gonna start working on a cosmic backlash for divine casters next time I have access to my books. (At a different house at the time of posting.)

[ninjaneer003]

It might work better if you didnt have the rifts open every single day he casts and at different times randomly. to make the fights more infrequent and so the wizard never knows when to expect a rift to open

[Drakevarg]

It might work better if you didnt have the rifts open every single day he casts and at different times randomly. to make the fights more infrequent and so the wizard never knows when to expect a rift to open

It's been altered since then. The Rifts are triggered when spells are cast. If they only cast a handful of low-level spells that day, they can easily go untriggered. After all, the system is specifically designed to backlash against rampant high-level casting.

Which reminds me of another issue; are the CRs of the triggered monsters at appropriate levels? I'd hate to go through all the trouble to create this system only to find out that the PCs can curb stop anything that gets summoned.

[Drakevarg]

Thinking about expanding this thing's repertoire to include Elementals. D'you think this would be thematically inconsistant, or could it work with the right delivery?

[Frozen_Feet]

I think Outsiders would be better pairings with abominations. Maybe Inevitables who come to gank the pesky wizards as well.

[Drakevarg]

I think Outsiders would be better pairings with abominations. Maybe Inevitables who come to gank the pesky wizards as well.

Thing is, that wouldn't work fluffwise, since the only Outsiders in this campaign are under the direct ruling of the gods, whereas Rifts and whatever comes out of them are basically magic gone wild. Which both Aberrations and Elementals qualify as in different ways.

Though Outsiders with Elemental subtypes might work.

On an only tangently related note, I think when I get around to the divine caster's cosmic backlash, Clerics of Nerull will have to deal with Fey.

[Drakevarg]

I've integrated elementals into the Normal Encounter List, and I've removed the d% bits because they're tedious as hell to calculate. I'll just use whatever monster feels thematically appropriate in that particular situation.

[For Valor]

y'know, instead of ruining the game for Spellcasters with complicated and confusing methods of passive-aggressive backlash, you could just power down the spells (put Polymorph Self at level 8, for instance) or...and get ready for this... power UP the weaker classes. Fighters are in the 2nd tier of usefulness, meaning they need arbitrarily powerful items to make themselves useful at the higher levels, as opposed to Rogues and Beguilers and Druids, who can handle the any encounter perfectly fine on their own, if played well.

Honestly, just give the fighter some +ability scores during empty levels (+1 to 2 out of three of the following: Dex, Con, and Str) and he'll be up to par with the other classes damn fast.

[Drakevarg]

y'know, instead of ruining the game for Spellcasters with complicated and confusing methods of passive-aggressive backlash, you could just power down the spells (put Polymorph Self at level 8, for instance) or...and get ready for this... power UP the weaker classes. Fighters are in the 2nd tier of usefulness, meaning they need arbitrarily powerful items to make themselves useful at the higher levels, as opposed to Rogues and Beguilers and Druids, who can handle the any encounter perfectly fine on their own, if played well.

Honestly, just give the fighter some +ability scores during empty levels (+1 to 2 out of three of the following: Dex, Con, and Str) and he'll be up to par with the other classes damn fast.

Tried that twice in the past. Didn't work the first time, and wound up basically writing half a system on my lonesome the second.

Besides, this is part-fluff as well. Arcane magic by RAW has no real drawbacks to it. Divine spellcasters have to incessantly suck up to their patron dieties, while Wizards just read a book and bam, reality's their bitch. This is the universe telling the Wizard to shut up and sit down for once.

EDIT: Removed continued leveling of "lesser" races upon the introduction of their "greater" cousins. (i.e., Gauth/Beholder, Flamebrother Salamander/Salamander/Noble Salamander)

[Bergor Terraf]

I was still thinking about divine mgic and came up with a variant from my previous idea.

Divine magic also create rifts, but the gods prevents them, up to a certain point. Divine spell casters have a Favor score. When they cast spells, their Favor score is reduced. When it runs out, each spell they cast has a chance of opening a rift (higher level spell --> greater chance).

[TheLonelyScribe]

Divine spellcasters have to incessantly suck up to their patron dieties, while Wizards just read a book and bam, reality's their bitch.

I think that's really mainly a matter of wording, I could counter it with the following: Wizards have to spend years of careful research and study, and revise their knowledge painstakingly each morning, whilst divine spellcasters can just send off a quick prayer and bam, reality's their bitch.

[Drakevarg]

I think that's really mainly a matter of wording, I could counter it with the following: Wizards have to spend years of careful research and study, and revise their knowledge painstakingly each morning, whilst divine spellcasters can just send off a quick prayer and bam, reality's their bitch.

What I'm saying is that with Wizards, there's no one mitigating their actions. A Wizard that reaches Epic Levels essentially has no one in the cosmos capable of telling them what they can or cannot do.

And what, do you think you can become a cleric by just heading to a local church and filling out the application? Clerical training is as much of a bitch as arcane research.

[Drakevarg]

Finished Elementizing the Subaquatic Encounter List. Good God but I hate coding tables...

EDIT: Added the Aquatic Encounter List. Meaning all that's left is further critiques and playtesting...

[ryleah]

Does this mean that the caster is walking around with a space-time rip in his pocket? If he messes with the laws of causality on one side of the continent at noon, and then teleports to the other side of the continent to mess with it some more at three why does he keep his rift points from the first bit of meddling? It seems like this would work better as a localized effect, so that two wizards making waves in the quantum flow of the same area makes the area a bad place to buy property.

Imagine the arcane champion of light and law and the abyssal mage mastermind politely tipping their hats to one another and carrying on with their shopping rather than risking a trip into the Far Realms due to the catastrophic strain trying their arcane might against one another would cause. Suddenly the fighter seems the most useful party member in the campaign.

[Drakevarg]

Does this mean that the caster is walking around with a space-time rip in his pocket? If he messes with the laws of causality on one side of the continent at noon, and then teleports to the other side of the continent to mess with it some more at three why does he keep his rift points from the first bit of meddling? It seems like this would work better as a localized effect, so that two wizards making waves in the quantum flow of the same area makes the area a bad place to buy property.

Imagine the arcane champion of light and law and the abyssal mage mastermind politely tipping their hats to one another and carrying on with their shopping rather than risking a trip into the Far Realms due to the catastrophic strain trying their arcane might against one another would cause. Suddenly the fighter seems the most useful party member in the campaign.

The Rifts are not part of the physical universe. They're cosmic backlashes centered around the caster themselves. It isn't reacting to the magic, it's reacting to the mage. The magic is just the knife that's cutting a hole in reality. The mage is the hole.

That's not to say too much magic in a single location has no effect. Highly magical areas such as say, a Wizard's Tower, are prone to having these Rifts open spontaneously simply because all of the magic in the air.

However, that isn't dealt with in the mechanic and happens solely at the disgression of the DM.

[For Valor]

What I'm saying is that with Wizards, there's no one mitigating their actions. A Wizard that reaches Epic Levels essentially has no one in the cosmos capable of telling them what they can or cannot do.

And what, do you think you can become a cleric by just heading to a local church and filling out the application? Clerical training is as much of a bitch as arcane research.

Uhhh... have you seen the Cleric and Druid spells? If anything, having someone mitigating your actions is a benefit, not a detriment. I mean, if you bond with mother nature, she'll let you turn into a goddamn whale when you're strong enough. Wizards have to study other creatures in order to learn how to polymorph into them, and get sick when they do. For Clerics, well... nightsticks and cloistered Clerics.

The only reason anyone would control wizards is because they'd get out of hand. And, honestly, they're quite balanced by Druids and Clerics. I don't see a problem.

For the fighter boost thing... well, the ability score plan actually worked well in my game, though the balance point is still lower (Fighters can't summon Efreets to do their bidding and give them free magic items).

And even if you ruin spellcasters to the point where they're fighter-level material (oh dear god... 2nd tier balance points... :smallfrown:), the fighter still has no fluff. I mean, to put it the way you phrased the Wizard: "They pick up a sword, swing it around, and bam." Now fighters will need flavor. And for that matter, so will monks, and knights, and samurais, and every single other basic class in the game.

Really, just bring up the notch. If you put wizards at fighter-level, you make it so that all the classes are competitive up to CR 10, where they all start to fall behind until you can wipe out most level 20 characters with a quick Balor or Pit Fiend. Especially since the wizard will most likely have some monster biting them in the ass after they cast their 4th or 5th spell....

[Drakevarg]

Bring it up a notch would ring of wuxia/heroic fantasy, of which I'm not a fan. (I'm actually considering houseruling an inherent ability score (that is, not including magical enhancements) cap of 20 + racial modifiers.)

I don't use monks or non-Core base classes anyway, so that's no problem for me.

"They pick up a sword swing it around, and bam... what? They've killed the meaty thing directly in front of 'em?" High level casters can essentially rewrite reality. Fighters can break things that have physical parts to break.

Thing is, maybe a single party isn't supposed to be able to take down beasts of legend. Go fetch an army if you wanna pull that off.

[Pechvarry]

I like this idea. One interesting aspect: bad guy casters and their rifts. With occasional DM-rigged rifts. Thus, causing 3-way encounters and such. Could be a lot of fun.

Something you could do for arcane casting classes to mitigate, though: some "rift buffer". A class feature that lowers or negates spell levels for the chances of causing a rift.

Let's say at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, you get Rift Buffer +1. So at level 7, Rift Buffer +2. If this is a wizard, he's casting 4th level spells, but his chance of opening a rift is (4 - 2 = ) 2%+previous rift score. However, I'd actually suggest that this buffer can't reduce it past 0. Since it grows at a different rate than new levels/day, you're most heavily penalized by using your highest level spells, as they add the most to your Rift score.

An alternative way to work it is simply that all spells of the specified level or lower are rift-proof -- add 0% to your chance of opening a rift (but perhaps still roll for any existing Rift Score?) In the above example, the level 7 wizard's 4th level spells still add the full 4%, but his 2nd level spells are rift-score-free. And there's still the effect where he's not encouraged to only use game-breaking spells to solve the encounter in as few spells as possible.

Also note: I'd keep the progression of any Rift Resistance-type class features roughly the same for all classes. With the above progression, a level 17 wizard casts 9th level spells, but only has buffer or resistance or whatever you end up calling it up to spell level 4, with level 5 coming at Wizard 19. The Bard 19, however, has the same resistance 5 but can only cast 6th level spells, so he's actually affected less. Which is fine and dandy -- his spells are quite sissy.

I really don't see the point in people getting up-in-arms about a flavorful campaign setting, claiming angsty passive-aggression and telling the OP to use a more traditional spellcasting limiter.

That said, I do hope you make divine casters have to jump through a lot of hoops. Flaming hoops. Sized for poodles.

EDIT: oh! I forgot! With the above class features. Perhaps good-aligned arcane casters gain some benefits like I listed above to help reduce the likelihood of Rifting™ in creatures, but evil-aligned arcanists instead gain abilities that make Rifted creatures more likely to ignore them, or even manipulate them. In this way, evil arcanists abuse the Rifting™ for dark summoning and... stuff.

[Drakevarg]

Adding an inherent Rift Buffer might mitigate the nerfage a bit yes. If I get what you're saying correctly, then at 3rd level Wizards are at no risk of opening a Rift with a 1st level spell. At 7th level, 1st and 2nd level spells are cosher, at 11th level 3rd, at 15th level 4th, and at 19th level 5th.

This... I dunno. Seems a bit much. I mean, I like the idea but part of the point is that this is not something a mage can control. They can mitigate it, which is why their Rift score goes down over time at a progressively faster rate as they learn. But ultimately there is nothing a mage can do to stop this from happening, and since mages are all about control, this would terrify them. In game mechanic fairness, I've made it so that weak spells only summon things that as a mage grows will be so irrelevent that they could kill it in melee.

No need to worry about the other classes, as I removed Bards and Sorcerers from my campaign for fluff reasons.

Still working on the divine version, but I was contemplating the idea of using Will Saves.

I don't think I'd add extra things based on alignment, since half the point of the mechanic is that magic is a force beyond the comprehension of even mages. If an evil wizard could control the aberrations, they'd have taken hold of this force, which is conceptually backwards. If good wizards had a reduced chance of opening a Rift, that'd show favoritism, which is also backwards. Magic here is vast, uncontrollable, and wants you dead for touching it.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm working on changing the lists to ommit creatures that simply aren't scary (not even "Dies Irae"-style, "well, yer ****ed" scary) and introducing some prestige-y goodness for the ones with class levels.

[For Valor]

Bring it up a notch would ring of wuxia/heroic fantasy, of which I'm not a fan. (I'm actually considering houseruling an inherent ability score (that is, not including magical enhancements) cap of 20 + racial modifiers.)

I don't use monks or non-Core base classes anyway, so that's no problem for me.

"They pick up a sword swing it around, and bam... what? They've killed the meaty thing directly in front of 'em?" High level casters can essentially rewrite reality. Fighters can break things that have physical parts to break.

Thing is, maybe a single party isn't supposed to be able to take down beasts of legend. Go fetch an army if you wanna pull that off.

You completely missed the idea behind everything I said...

I meant needs flavor as in everyone will need flavor. If you're talking about it being good flavor for casters, then you're making them more interesting than the fighter-ish-classes. Now all of them need flavor too, so unless all the classes you've created have some sort of flavor behind them that smacks of space-time rifts, then making an argument saying that "I like this idea because it gives casters flavor" is a strawman.

Then there was something about you not liking high-power campaigns.

If you don't like high-power campaigns.... then go play E6. It'll be great for you, I'm sure. The point of being level 20 is that you are AMAZING. If Pit Fiends and Balors can teleport at will and plane shift and blow things up with their mind, then you should be able to be just as awesome. And spellcasters fulfill that role. Fighters don't; neither do their friends. So they all need a boost.

[Drakevarg]

I meant needs flavor as in everyone will need flavor. If you're talking about it being good flavor for casters, then you're making them more interesting than the fighter-ish-classes. Now all of them need flavor too, so unless all the classes you've created have some sort of flavor behind them that smacks of space-time rifts, then making an argument saying that "I like this idea because it gives casters flavor" is a strawman.

Wizards, Barbarians, Clerics, Druids and Paladins need extensive flavor because they have superhuman abilities that CAN'T exist without explaination. Now, I'm not arguing that all not all classes require flavor, they ALL DO, but not all of them need things at such detail.

A fighter is a guy with some martial training - that could be a mercenary, a militia member, a knight, or was raised by any of the above. Beyond that, I leave it to the player. A rogue is a general cutpurse who happens to know exactly the right place to jab someone in the kidney to make them get out of their way. Where did they pick this up? I dunno, but they need something beyond "skill monkey". Rangers are hunters and other skilled woodsmen. Probably got their skills from a teacher, possibly a parent. The magic bits are a bit harder to explain, but as soon as I get a copy of Complete Warrior I'm using the mundane varient, so that bit's solved.

(Not bringing up the other classes since I don't use 'em in my campaigns.)


If you don't like high-power campaigns.... then go play E6. It'll be great for you, I'm sure. The point of being level 20 is that you are AMAZING. If Pit Fiends and Balors can teleport at will and plane shift and blow things up with their mind, then you should be able to be just as awesome. And spellcasters fulfill that role. Fighters don't; neither do their friends. So they all need a boost.

I considered E6 for a while. I decided against it because it barred me from dozens of interesting PrCs and interesting encounters.

We're clearly running on different standards of taste, and no ammount of arguing from one side or the other is going to change that. (At least on the high-power vs. low-power debate.) Now, I'm all for arguement for arguement's sake, I think it's an entertaining way to spend an evening, but I prefer one that is going to be more than a series of "nuh-uh"s.

[Drakevarg]

Cleaned out and prestigificated the Normal Encounter List.

And behind the scenes, I've been working on the cultural dynamics between the various sentient summons. Could be interesting.

I've got the Divine Lists more-or-less done, but I'm gonna fiddle with 'em a bit more before posting those.

EDIT: Subaquatic List cleaned.
EDIT2: Aquatic List cleaned.

[Sitzkrieg]

The Rift score is reset after a rift is opened, right? So wouldn't it be in a caster's best interest to dump a whole bunch of 0-level and 1st level spells at the end of the day/encounter specifically to open a rift and reset the score, if they were worried about it being too high? This seems antithetical to the flavor of this mechanic, but the rules so far would encourage that.

[Drakevarg]

The Rift score is reset after a rift is opened, right? So wouldn't it be in a caster's best interest to dump a whole bunch of 0-level and 1st level spells at the end of the day/encounter specifically to open a rift and reset the score, if they were worried about it being too high? This seems antithetical to the flavor of this mechanic, but the rules so far would encourage that.

0-Level spells can't summon anything, so they never trigger a Rift. And if you've gotten to the point that you've got enough 1st Level spells left at the end of the day that you can launch them off willy nilly, chances are you've triggered the Rift today anyway (it only takes a handful of high-level spells to get a 1-in-4 chance to trigger a Rift), and if not you'll probably just trigger one tomorrow.

Plus, if I was particularly crabby that day I could just wait until they've burned up all their spells and say "...and then a bear attacks."

Also, this was on page 5 or so. Does this qualify as threadomancy?

[Fail]

Make your spellcaster players play this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) minus polymorph, maybe plus some other individual adjustments. And I mean all spellcasters, unless no one ever contesting cleric/druid supremacy is an emotional attachment of yours.

[Drakevarg]

...why would I do that?

Especially since that class uses both Divine and Arcane spells, which is flat out impossible in this setting.

And I plan on giving the divine casters a similar treatment to this, which I was going to put in a replacement topic before this one was dragged up from the grave.

[Fail]

...why would I do that?

Especially since that class uses both Divine and Arcane spells, which is flat out impossible in this setting.Because it seems to be close to the power level you want, easy, and not a convoluted passive-aggressive non-solution. Also: spells aren't arcane or divine, classes are; so - yes, "arcane adept" - which I think even exists (magewright, Eberron).

[Drakevarg]

Because it seems to be close to the power level you want, easy, and not a convoluted passive-aggressive non-solution. Also: spells aren't arcane or divine, classes are; so - yes, "arcane adept" - which I think even exists (magewright, Eberron).

You seem to be missing half the point of this houserule: FLUFF. I'm not doing this as passive-aggressive assholism. I'm doing it because that's how my setting works.

And who are you to say spells aren't arcane or divine? It's my canon, my rules.

[Fail]

You seem to be missing half the point of this houserule: FLUFF. I'm not doing this as passive-aggressive assholism. I'm doing it because that's how my setting works.The end result is the same.


And who are you to say spells aren't arcane or divine? It's my canon, my rules.No such houserule was mentioned anywhere, so an unstated change isn't distinguishable from a misunderstanding of the previously existing rules - that happens to be very common.

[Drakevarg]

The end result is the same.

But the intended result is very different. You are interpreting my intended result to be "balance the wizard." Which it's not, which makes forcing all spellcasters to play adepts to be an invalid step.


No such houserule was mentioned anywhere, so an unstated change isn't distinguishable from a misunderstanding of the previously existing rules - that happens to be very common.

Misunderstanding and alternative interpretation are pretty damn close.

[Pechvarry]

Because it seems to be close to the power level you want, easy, and not a convoluted passive-aggressive non-solution. Also: spells aren't arcane or divine, classes are; so - yes, "arcane adept" - which I think even exists (magewright, Eberron).

If you're so certain he's being passive-aggressive about trying to nerf spellcasters, then what's that make you? Overzealous in your search for people on the internet playing settings other than greyhawk? You mean you've never played the campaign where no one has magic items, despite the fact that it hurts melee more than mages? I thought EVERYONE ended up in that campaign at one point or another.

What you're saying here, you could seriously do with every single homebrew idea on these forums. "that prestige class version of a hexblade is cool and all, but you should just be a cleric instead." "why did you make a new tome of battle school? it's too confusing adding this many extra maneuvers. just reflavor iron heart and take a level of rogue." Etc etc.

And as for "non-solution", do you always take the outlook of "if it's not an ABSOLUTELY PERFECT SOLUTION, it's silly to even attempt"?

This is just a very flavorful thing that just happens to have a nice little side effect of making the god-like wizards think through their actions...

[Sitzkrieg]

0-Level spells can't summon anything, so they never trigger a Rift. And if you've gotten to the point that you've got enough 1st Level spells left at the end of the day that you can launch them off willy nilly, chances are you've triggered the Rift today anyway (it only takes a handful of high-level spells to get a 1-in-4 chance to trigger a Rift), and if not you'll probably just trigger one tomorrow.

Well, a mid-level sorcerer is going to have 6 or so 1st level spells per day. If he's looking at a 1 in 4 chance of opening a rift at the end of an encounter, wouldn't he rather spend four of those first-levels and be pretty sure to summon a choker or something easy to deal with, rather than risk summoning a beholder with class levels? I feel like the CR of the monster ought to be based on caster level, not level of the spell cast. Of course, that would encourage casting as few spells as possible, which was mentioned before as not the intended goal. Maybe the best way to encourage casting more buffs and lower-level spells instead of only high-powered game breakers would be to keep a different rift score for each spell level. This would force players to rely on a variety of different approaches and levels of spells instead of just relying on very powerful methods. It would end up being even more complicated, but it would provide (I think) the right motivation for the players.

[Owrtho]

Just a thought, but if using arcane magic damages reality, it seems like it could be properly applied to repair it. Perhaps adding some spells that reduce your rift score might work (but have no other effect, and still trigger the chance of a monster appearing if the rift score isn't reduced to 0 by using it). Then a caster would have the chance to avoid the things, but at the cost of one (or more) of their spells.

Owrtho