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apolloxi11
2010-05-15, 09:59 PM
This is a two part question.

1) How can I role-play my character while is in town that doesn't feel half done or out of context with what the other players are doing?

2) As the occasional DM when my players' characters are in town, the players sometime look at me like well whats next. I use these moments to allow the players role-play their characters blowing of steam or roleplay common life in the era. Is there anything I should do or say to lets the players grab on and role-play?

What currently brings this is up is today during my current session our DM had us in a town and I was kind of stuck. As a player I was in a bind because my fighter (duelist) was in a town where he didn't know the language and standing guard was almost useless with our Orc barbarian looking over our wears at the marketplace. Also the few role-playing things I threw in seemed have done. .

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 10:19 PM
This is a two part question.

1) How can I role-play my character while is in town that doesn't feel half done or out of context with what the other players are doing?

2) As the occasional DM when my players' characters are in town, the players sometime look at me like well whats next. I use these moments to allow the players role-play their characters blowing of steam or roleplay common life in the era. Is there anything I should do or say to lets the players grab on and role-play?

What currently brings this is up is today during my current session our DM had us in a town and I was kind of stuck. As a player I was in a bind because my fighter (duelist) was in a town where he didn't know the language and standing guard was almost useless with our Orc barbarian looking over our wears at the marketplace. Also the few role-playing things I threw in seemed have done. .Unfortunately, you're a fighter. This is pretty much the time that you have to basically just sit back and watch the others. Fighters are pretty well useless outside of a fight, and unless you plan on using Handle Animal to start a petting zoo, you'll just have to tough it out. Fighters aren't supposed to be useful when they're not fighting, so you'll either have to try putting some resources toward mechanics useful outside of hitting things, or start focusing on something not mechanically-related.

See if you can't find some interesting personality quirk that you can exhibit when you've trekked back into civilization. Do you have anything that you collect, such as stamps, painted figurines, portable topiary, or slaves? Hire a local that speaks your language and have him guide you to find whatever it is that you're collecting. Does your character have an interest in local wildlife? Go kill some animals and have them stuffed (complete lack of Knowledge skills means you have no idea what things like squirrels and sparrows are, unfortunately, but you can still kill them). The druid might have YOU sent to the taxidermist, but you can chalk this up to flavorful roleplay.

FoE
2010-05-15, 10:28 PM
Your post is a bit hard to read.

I don't understand your first question. How does travelling through a small town relate to role-playing a character?

As to your second question …*what I think you're saying is that you send characters to town to have*some down time in between dungeon-delving and having adventures. The thing is, the PCs and the players are not one and the same thing, so the enjoyment they can from, say, visiting a tavern to get drunk or visiting a brothel is very limited. And this is not a real place, so they can get zero enjoyment from sight-seeing.

And like a RL person visiting a strange place, it's not like they automatically know what's fun to do.

If you want to have the PCs do more in a small town than simply re-supply, then you need to present them with something to do, like mini-quests. They need to observe some thugs shaking down a merchant outside of his shop or come across some young girl weeping in the town square because she can't find her mother. A plot hook, SOMETHING. You need to engage players, not just plop them down somewhere.

As to your complaint about your fighter not having anything to do in the town you visit because he doesn't speak the language, well, that's a very odd and very poor choice for your DM to make. Language shouldn't be a hindrance at the game table like it is in real life.

I would suggest asking your DM about the situation so you can avoid the problem in the future.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 11:04 PM
Well how do you roleplay outside of battle? I have a lizardfolk fighter named Zorr who cooks. [the DM even allowed me to take profession cook as class skill].
So outside of combat he's often experimenting with different foods.
Pulled Krenshaw, Rack of Raksasha, King Umber Hulk, Spicy Saald Salid, Float Roast[made from beholder], Goblin-ka-bob, Roasted Worg

And he'd try to make sausage, steak, meatloaf and other more generic meat products out of all kinds of creatures.
You don't even want to know what he made from the Chimera.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 11:05 PM
Well how do you roleplay outside of battle? I have a lizardfolk fighter named Zorr who cooks. [the DM even allowed me to take profession cook as class skill].
So outside of combat he's often experimenting with different foods.
Pulled Krenshaw, Rack of Raksasha, King Umber Hulk, Spicy Saald Salid, Float Roast[made from beholder], Goblin-ka-bob, Roasted Worg

And he'd try to make sausage, steak, meatloaf and other more generic meat products out of all kinds of creatures.
You don't even want to know what he made from the Chimera.You should check out the head on his illithid beer.

valadil
2010-05-15, 11:15 PM
1) Play ambitious characters. Give them goals. These should be things they can do on their own whether or not the GM decides to give you what you're looking for. This gives you something to do when in town.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 11:20 PM
1) Play ambitious characters. Give them goals. These should be things they can do on their own whether or not the GM decides to give you what you're looking for. This gives you something to do when in town....He's a fighter. The best he can hope for is to be used as a doorstop by the party wizard after he reaches about level 5.

krossbow
2010-05-15, 11:31 PM
Better PC question:


Your in town: Why haven't you burned it down yet?

Icewraith
2010-05-15, 11:35 PM
Doesn't duelist have a less restrictive skill list than straight fighter?

At least with fighter you can put ranks in intimidate, follow the party face around and stare angrily at people if negotiations aren't going so well.

Since you should have a decent dex score you should be able to juggle decently, try and get drinks from the tavernfolk this way.

Challenge people to nonlethal duels.

Drinking contests with your good fort save/high con.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-15, 11:44 PM
Doesn't duelist have a less restrictive skill list than straight fighter?Commoners have less restrictive skill lists than fighters.


At least with fighter you can put ranks in intimidate, follow the party face around and stare angrily at people if negotiations aren't going so well.With a standard fighter's Charisma? Are you serious? That's like asking a goldfish to help you stoke a fire.


Since you should have a decent dex score you should be able to juggle decently, try and get drinks from the tavernfolk this way.Isn't that Perform? Not anywhere near his skill list.


Challenge people to nonlethal duels....To the death!


Drinking contests with your good fort save/high con.Time for some cutpurses to take advantage of his poor Spot checks while he's distracted.

Hey! There are some things the DM could toss your way!

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-15, 11:50 PM
You should check out the head on his illithid beer.

He doesn't have brewing, but if he ever fights an illithid he'll be sure to make some fried calamari.

apolloxi11
2010-05-16, 12:05 AM
I was looking over my character sheet and it looks like my character could do some sort of balancing act.

Greenish
2010-05-16, 12:27 AM
Isn't that Perform? Not anywhere near his skill list.Sleight of Hand.

apolloxi11
2010-05-16, 12:40 AM
I do have a skill mod for balance of 6.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-16, 12:48 AM
What is important to your character? Why are they adventuring? Don't just look at your stats and skills, look at them as a person.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 01:18 AM
What is important to your character? Why are they adventuring? Don't just look at your stats and skills, look at them as a person.

This. If you can't find something to do in town that doesn't feel half-done or out-of-context, it may be that your character concept is only half-done. Examine his motivations, ideals, lifestyle, goals, and then decide how you would like to explore those while 'in town'. When I saw the OP, my first reaction was "give me something more to work with than 'Fighter/Duelist'."

Of course, in this particular case, not knowing the language is going to be a barrier to doing anything, but depending on your character and the rest of the party, you could persuade someone to come along and act as translator. Or you could pay someone to translate for you, if you could find someone with the necessary language skills. Ask around at an inn--places that cater to travelers will often have multilingual service. Overcoming the language barrier is something you can do, provided you have a reason to do so. Which gets back to the whole "what does your character want to do in town?" question.

Escheton
2010-05-16, 01:38 AM
step 1: find a guide to translate and stuff
step 2: take a stroll through the park, have a picknick. Hit the library or museum. ya know, non-violent stuff. It's his downtime after all.
Take a local course, improve yourself.

Coidzor
2010-05-16, 01:49 AM
Heh. I rather enjoyed the play.

Well... I find having the characters having some manner of established interests is useful for such times.

At worst, a fighter can always find a place to train or spar. If a duelist in ... temperament/hobby in addition to class, there's always seeing what the local dueling scene is like.

More tactically minded melee types could look into what sort of armament and tactics are employed by the local bandit and mercenary outfits. Or even the guards or thieves guilds if there's no other obvious threats to look into just how they fight. Which, hey, if it goes poorly, free XP!

gdiddy
2010-05-16, 03:24 AM
-Ask for information on entering the jousting lists.

-Go around telling everyone that a wizard turned you into a lizardman and that you wander the earth, trying to kill him and break your spell. Free drinks.

-Claim you're a female and if questioned, use the word "Cloaca".

-Leave your shed skin on someone's roof.

-By a big awesome hat, pick fights over it when people don't compliment you on it.

-Learn the following common words "food", "inn" "hairy", "warmblood", "scum", "death", "to", "all", and "bathroom"

-Tell everyone that you are a Giant Kobold.

-Change you name to Saruhk. It's a great way to meet people. Everyone will want to hang out with you and be just like you!

valadil
2010-05-16, 10:39 AM
...He's a fighter. The best he can hope for is to be used as a doorstop by the party wizard after he reaches about level 5.

So? That's just his class. That doesn't mean he doesn't have non mechanical plot to pursue. The language barrier is the real problem, but that's not going to be the case in every town.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 10:58 AM
So? That's just his class. That doesn't mean he doesn't have non mechanical plot to pursue. The language barrier is the real problem, but that's not going to be the case in every town.The comment responded to was about aspirations.

If you aspire to anything, you do not play a fighter. It's like making a bid for being king when you're a lame, blind, deaf peasant with all 8s for stats and a d20 that rolls nothing but 1s. [/snark]

Narmoth
2010-05-16, 11:07 AM
What is important to your character? Why are they adventuring? Don't just look at your stats and skills, look at them as a person.

Math_Mage is right.
I had fun with a fallen paladin that was pretty disinterested in the whole quest.
He looked for brothels, started fights and did a lot of mischief.
Also, he enraged some ancient monster in a pond by tossing a NPC druid (not in urban environment)

Your personality should tell you enough to know what to do, even if you don't speak the language

(My ex-paladin hired a hooker for the party thief when they were in a place he didn't speak the language to keep him busy)


The comment responded to was about aspirations.

If you aspire to anything, you do not play a fighter. It's like making a bid for being king when you're a lame, blind, deaf peasant with all 8s for stats and a d20 that rolls nothing but 1s.

Hm... I will play a fighter next campaign just to prove you wrong

gdiddy
2010-05-16, 11:11 AM
The comment responded to was about aspirations.

If you aspire to anything, you do not play a fighter. It's like making a bid for being king when you're a lame, blind, deaf peasant with all 8s for stats and a d20 that rolls nothing but 1s. [/snark]

That's like saying a person who doesn't run for Parliament/Congress/Dictator is living an uninteresting life.

Power is not the only metric of a successful life and seeking after it doesn't make you successful.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 11:15 AM
That's like saying a person who doesn't run for Parliament/Congress/Dictator is living an uninteresting life.

Power is not the only metric of a successful life and seeking after it doesn't make you successful.Some might find it interesting, but 'hit things harder' doesn't really aspire to much.

PersonMan
2010-05-16, 11:18 AM
Some might find it interesting, but 'hit things harder' doesn't really aspire to much.

Aspire to multiclass? Gish, maybe?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 11:24 AM
I guess you could aspire to opening orphanages and such. Unfortunately, the fighter class is such a crapshoot that even mundane things as that are difficult. Just about anything you try to do is very easily stymied. Want to open an orphanage? You have to deal with people trying to scam your money out of you (and no ability to resist). You want to become a celebrated diplomat? No social skills beyond Intimidate, and no Cha to fuel it with. Want to be a celebrated general, winning battles for your country? No leadership abilities, and no knowledge of how to actually wage large-scale war (that's Knowledge: History, yo). Want to be the best swordsman in history? No can do, because practically everyone in every tier higher than you is better already. Want to take down the god-wizard necromancer ruling the land with a necrotic iron fist? Sorry, but he's a wizard; you've already lost.

It's hard for me to conceive of any real aspirations of any note that a fighter wouldn't be utterly pwned at because of his oh-so-limited mechanics. Normally I'd say that class shouldn't matter quite so much, but the fighter class flat-out castrates your ability to do anything beyond hitting things, and that is sad.


Aspire to multiclass? Gish, maybe?That's about the best he can hope for, though full-casters still do it better. :smallfrown:

aivanther
2010-05-16, 11:32 AM
Go to the town bar, get in a brawl. Once you've metted out non-lethal damage enough to knock enough people unconcious, loot them give the tavernkeep some money for damages, then go to the next tavern and do it again.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 11:36 AM
Go to the town bar, get in a brawl. Once you've metted out non-lethal damage enough to knock enough people unconcious, loot them give the tavernkeep some money for damages, then go to the next tavern and do it again.Have the party rogue sell them as slaves, too.

Emmerask
2010-05-16, 11:52 AM
What is important to your character? Why are they adventuring? Don't just look at your stats and skills, look at them as a person.

Exactly, mechanics outside battles are easily handwaved and most dms will be reasonable enough to do just that, so that even the fighter has fun outside combat. But you have to take the initiative and give the dm something to work with otherwise the dm might think that you are just not interested in anything outside combat and leaves it at that :smallwink:

aivanther
2010-05-16, 11:59 AM
Have the party rogue sell them as slaves, too.

If you're going that far, why worry about the ones you just beat senseless? round up the whole bar, then force the tavern keep to pay you protection money. You can set up your whole own organized crime syndicate just you and the rogue.

In fact, that was the plan for one of my campaigns, I was the warforged power attacking juggernaut, the party rogue was our face and sneak. The rogue would stand around negotiating until things went sour, and then I would chop a few people up. A couple of corpses and a lot of blood on me got me a bonus to my intimidate checks, and we proceeded to set up our own crime syndicate. To bad it died in early infancy...

PersonMan
2010-05-16, 12:43 PM
If you're going that far, why worry about the ones you just beat senseless? round up the whole bar, then force the tavern keep to pay you protection money. You can set up your whole own organized crime syndicate just you and the rogue.

In fact, that was the plan for one of my campaigns, I was the warforged power attacking juggernaut, the party rogue was our face and sneak. The rogue would stand around negotiating until things went sour, and then I would chop a few people up. A couple of corpses and a lot of blood on me got me a bonus to my intimidate checks, and we proceeded to set up our own crime syndicate. To bad it died in early infancy...

Awesome. Reminds me of when my party in SWSE became pirates and got a crazily suped-up ship after escaping from an asylum and getting a ton of weapons.

cZak
2010-05-16, 02:13 PM
Unfortunately, you're a fighter. This is pretty much the time that you have to basically just sit back and watch the others...

:smalleek:

Wow, I really feel sorry for what sounds like the types of games your DM runs.
Granted you could run a strictly "mechanical" game and rely solely on the numbers of stats and skills, but I find PC's have a much broader repertoire.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 03:12 PM
...He's a fighter. The best he can hope for is to be used as a doorstop by the party wizard after he reaches about level 5.

Reverse Stormwind Fallacy. Playing a Fighter does not prevent you from formulating a coherent character concept and acting on it while in town.

Coidzor
2010-05-16, 03:42 PM
Reverse Stormwind Fallacy. Playing a Fighter does not prevent you from formulating a coherent character concept and acting on it while in town.

No, it just means you better have some way of avoiding skill checks, especially of the social encounter variety, because, well... Fighters and skills don't mix well. DM Fiat leading to going off of the grid for roleplaying works as well as anything else, but it either has to be entirely divorced from the skills system, or the fighter is still kicked in the Non-AC-Defenses everytime they come up.

Hell, they still don't in 4e, where they can basically mug someone or find a tavern, and both of those are hampered by their CHA dump-stat. Well, without taking a background that allows them to get another taggable skill.


Wow, I really feel sorry for what sounds like the types of games your DM runs.
Granted you could run a strictly "mechanical" game and rely solely on the numbers of stats and skills, but I find PC's have a much broader repertoire.

Considering that the rules have to be departed from in order to do what you suggest, we can't assume that such is the case for others unless they say so. Where unspecified, assume they're following the official rules rather than house-rules.


I'd say with a guide/translator, provided the DM doesn't try to stab you in the back, that'd be someone with gather information and knowledge local, maybe bluff or diplomacy for managing things and greasing axles if it's a higher class one, the ability to speak at least two relevant languages... So they'd at least be able to take care of most of the finding people and places sorts of things...

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 04:05 PM
No, it just means you better have some way of avoiding skill checks, especially of the social encounter variety, because, well... Fighters and skills don't mix well. DM Fiat leading to going off of the grid for roleplaying works as well as anything else, but it either has to be entirely divorced from the skills system, or the fighter is still kicked in the Non-AC-Defenses everytime they come up.

<snip>

I'd say with a guide/translator, provided the DM doesn't try to stab you in the back, that'd be someone with gather information and knowledge local, maybe bluff or diplomacy for managing things and greasing axles if it's a higher class one, the ability to speak at least two relevant languages... So they'd at least be able to take care of most of the finding people and places sorts of things...

You've answered your own objection, no? There's more than one way to resolve a skill check. I'm not claiming that the guide is a perfect solution, or that he'll be good enough to handle any situation, but the point is that the Fighter and the DM can work together a little, within the rules, to make things interesting. And that's for the encounters that require such checks, in situations where the Fighter is looking to do a solo in town rather than team up with others. As you note, the Fighter can put some effort in to avoid this.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 04:49 PM
You've answered your own objection, no? There's more than one way to resolve a skill check. I'm not claiming that the guide is a perfect solution, or that he'll be good enough to handle any situation, but the point is that the Fighter and the DM can work together a little, within the rules, to make things interesting. And that's for the encounters that require such checks, in situations where the Fighter is looking to do a solo in town rather than team up with others. As you note, the Fighter can put some effort in to avoid this.And as I alluded to, the fighter needs a crutch in order to function outside of a fight. Having to rely on a pet NPC to make your skill rolls for you just highlights how bad the fighter is outside of whacking things to death.

And circumventing skill checks for the fighter makes anyone that actually USES their skill list look like a buffoon for spending resources on something the fighter gets because the DM feels sorry for them.

Maybe we should give them the ability to circumvent UMD checks and money requirements for consumables to give them the ability to cast spells next? The party's truenamer is REALLY going to enjoy that.

Coidzor
2010-05-16, 04:55 PM
You've answered your own objection, no?

Having to have one's hand held is my biggest objection, actually. And, no, the first part was in reference to people who play without skill checks in the interest of RPing. The end part was an attempt to be marginally helpful to the OP.

It doesn't matter whether it's one of your party members doing it to expedite things or an NPC who you're having to pay and rely on and trust the DM to give you enough clues if something bad is going to happen as you have no skill checks with which to have any trust in knowing for yourself. Having to pay money for one's own nanny that one can't even trust not to be a dagger in one's back is something that just doesn't sit well with me.

You get a guide because A. none of you speak the language. (So why did you go there?), B. you don't have anyone with the requisite skills to find out what they need to know to find what you all are wanting, C. the DM just wants to heighten the sense of being strangers in a strange land by necessitating a guide/boatman/cabbie either due to a mode of transportation being necessary (say, a water-way city or one that requires movement in 3 dimensions) or just cuz, or D. your relevant party members are completely unavailable.

The OP's case seems to be a mix of A and D. Therefore guides are of some expediency, but that doesn't mean I have to like them or consider them more than a leaky, weeping sore covered by a leaky bandaid. And held in place by a rusty dagger.

Escheton
2010-05-16, 05:40 PM
It doesn't matter whether it's one of your party members doing it to expedite things or an NPC who you're having to pay and rely on and trust the DM to give you enough clues if something bad is going to happen as you have no skill checks with which to have any trust in knowing for yourself. Having to pay money for one's own nanny that one can't even trust not to be a dagger in one's back is something that just doesn't sit well with me.


never went backpacking in strange city where you don't know the language then?

nothing spells adventure than fighting off the hoodlem friends of your guide who led you to an alley

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 05:58 PM
And as I alluded to, the fighter needs a crutch in order to function outside of a fight. Having to rely on a pet NPC to make your skill rolls for you just highlights how bad the fighter is outside of whacking things to death.

And circumventing skill checks for the fighter makes anyone that actually USES their skill list look like a buffoon for spending resources on something the fighter gets because the DM feels sorry for them.

Maybe we should give them the ability to circumvent UMD checks and money requirements for consumables to give them the ability to cast spells next? The party's truenamer is REALLY going to enjoy that.

False slippery slope. The fighter needs to use his head, find a likely place (which, if you feel like it, might require its own Gather Information check), find a likely person, and strike a deal with him. He needs to pay the guy, he can't necessarily trust him (unless he asks a teammate with Sense Motive to vet the guy, which might not be feasible from an RP perspective without defeating the point of the exercise), and he still might not find what he's looking for. He's not necessarily asking the local to do anything significantly beyond the local's ordinary job description. This is a perfectly ordinary and realistic RP scenario, and nothing like your suggestion that the fighter next break UMD and WBL rules. It certainly isn't 'circumventing' skill checks, with all the difficulties listed, so why should the skillmonkey feel like a buffoon?

If done poorly, the NPC guide can turn into a crutch. I agree that the Fighter is mechanically less suited to handling social interaction by himself. But that doesn't mean the Fighter can't make some headway, and it doesn't mean we throw out all the Fighter's opportunities to RP in town.


Having to have one's hand held is my biggest objection, actually. And, no, the first part was in reference to people who play without skill checks in the interest of RPing. The end part was an attempt to be marginally helpful to the OP.

It doesn't matter whether it's one of your party members doing it to expedite things or an NPC who you're having to pay and rely on and trust the DM to give you enough clues if something bad is going to happen as you have no skill checks with which to have any trust in knowing for yourself. Having to pay money for one's own nanny that one can't even trust not to be a dagger in one's back is something that just doesn't sit well with me.

You get a guide because A. none of you speak the language. (So why did you go there?), B. you don't have anyone with the requisite skills to find out what they need to know to find what you all are wanting, C. the DM just wants to heighten the sense of being strangers in a strange land by necessitating a guide/boatman/cabbie either due to a mode of transportation being necessary (say, a water-way city or one that requires movement in 3 dimensions) or just cuz, or D. your relevant party members are completely unavailable.

The OP's case seems to be a mix of A and D. Therefore guides are of some expediency, but that doesn't mean I have to like them or consider them more than a leaky, weeping sore covered by a leaky bandaid. And held in place by a rusty dagger.

Which is pretty much how the character should feel, meaning that this is only the sort of activity expected if the Fighter is pursuing a goal that is important enough to accept the risk, and secret enough that he doesn't want his teammates' help. For that situation, it's great RP. Other situations require other solutions. So we strike a balance between the difficulty of the task, the character's suitability (or lack thereof) for completing the task, and the character's ability to complete the task. Otherwise, we either fall into the trap where the Fighter simply can't do anything in town, or the trap where the Fighter can do everything the Rogue and Bard can. At any rate, this is a game of trying to make things work, not finding reasons why they can't work. A crutch, a bandaid, whatever it takes to let the players and the DM have fun creating a story together. Isn't that the point?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 06:29 PM
False slippery slope. The fighter needs to use his head, find a likely place (which, if you feel like it, might require its own Gather Information check), find a likely person, and strike a deal with him. He needs to pay the guy, he can't necessarily trust him (unless he asks a teammate with Sense Motive to vet the guy, which might not be feasible from an RP perspective without defeating the point of the exercise), and he still might not find what he's looking for. He's not necessarily asking the local to do anything significantly beyond the local's ordinary job description. This is a perfectly ordinary and realistic RP scenario, and nothing like your suggestion that the fighter next break UMD and WBL rules. It certainly isn't 'circumventing' skill checks, with all the difficulties listed, so why should the skillmonkey feel like a buffoon?

If done poorly, the NPC guide can turn into a crutch. I agree that the Fighter is mechanically less suited to handling social interaction by himself. But that doesn't mean the Fighter can't make some headway, and it doesn't mean we throw out all the Fighter's opportunities to RP in town.



Which is pretty much how the character should feel, meaning that this is only the sort of activity expected if the Fighter is pursuing a goal that is important enough to accept the risk, and secret enough that he doesn't want his teammates' help. For that situation, it's great RP. Other situations require other solutions. So we strike a balance between the difficulty of the task, the character's suitability (or lack thereof) for completing the task, and the character's ability to complete the task. Otherwise, we either fall into the trap where the Fighter simply can't do anything in town, or the trap where the Fighter can do everything the Rogue and Bard can. At any rate, this is a game of trying to make things work, not finding reasons why they can't work. A crutch, a bandaid, whatever it takes to let the players and the DM have fun creating a story together. Isn't that the point?Protip: if you want to have fun outside of initiative, don't play a single-classed fighter. If you do, you won't have much of anything to do, otherwise, and you don't have any room to complain, 'cuz you should've seen it coming a mile off.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 06:39 PM
Protip: if you want to have fun outside of initiative, don't play a single-classed fighter. If you do, you won't have much of anything to do, otherwise, and you don't have any room to complain, 'cuz you should've seen it coming a mile off.

If being pro means you can't have fun unless you're throwing a sword, spell, or skill check at it, I'll pass, thanks. :smallyuk:

valadil
2010-05-16, 07:42 PM
Protip: if you want to have fun outside of initiative, don't play a single-classed fighter. If you do, you won't have much of anything to do, otherwise, and you don't have any room to complain, 'cuz you should've seen it coming a mile off.

There's plenty to do without rolling skills. If there isn't, pack up and find a better game.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 08:05 PM
There's plenty to do without rolling skills. If there isn't, pack up and find a better game.The main problem is that fighter actively sabotages everything it's supposed to be good at due to a very poor setup (and just about everything else, as well). Even if you don't roll for every little thing, roleplaying your actual abilities means you're about as versatile as a tactical nuke.

Guard? Nope. Can't see the broad side of a barn, nor find contraband if it's at all hidden.

War leader? Sorry. No knowledge of tactics, can't inspire the troops, not enough knowledge about anything to be able to make sound decisions, no sense of direction.

Strategic advisor? No. According to the rules, fighters don't know enough about anything important to be allowed near the command tents (no Knowledge skills at all).

Constable? Nyet. Can't tell if someone's lying through their teeth, nor spot an ambush in a dark alley.

Bounty hunter? Uh-uh. Can't see through disguises, track someone across an open room, or tell if someone's lying.

Fighting instructor? This...might actually be one of the few things you can roleplay appropriately.

Aid in diplomatic missions? Not really. No social skills except Intimidate (and no Cha for any but Zhentarim soldiers).

Assisting with the party bard's appraisal of the items you just brought back into town? Ineffectual, what with no ability to actually identify or Appraise anything; all you can really do is help carry things, which a packhorse could do more easily.

Item creation? With what?

Building orphanages? Are there enough skill points to go around to put some into Profession?

Collecting miscellanea? And how are you going to ensure you're not getting fakes?

Etc etc etc.

Sure, you can forgo rolls, but roleplaying your actual abilities means you do what fighters stereotypically do; stand back and loom semi-menacingly.

Emmerask
2010-05-16, 08:16 PM
Well these are not really typical activities you do for a short stay in a city.
"hi can I be the constable for 2 days?" :smallbiggrin:

Some ideas what you can do:

Read books in the library, a generous dm might even give you a skillpoint or two in the subject the book is about:smallwink:
Get drunk in a tavern and socialize, you might even hear some interesting gossip. Or play some cards you might loose a few silver but who cares at that level and again you might get some information... if you gamble enough a certain game the dm might again give you some skillpoints for profession gambler :smallwink:

Well in this city they don´t speak your tongue obviously that is extremely limiting your options this time though look for a tavern visited by merchants and you might find people that speak your tongue :smallwink:

Coidzor
2010-05-16, 08:18 PM
If being pro means you can't have fun unless you're throwing a sword, spell, or skill check at it, I'll pass, thanks. :smallyuk:

Well, you already made that clear by suggesting/stating that you don't play DnD by the rules as written anyway with your stated philosophy of RP as a way around the rules.

Which, considering how skills are for most classes, is not explicitly an unreasonable reaction.

It is, however, one outside the purview of the written rules of the game, which do involve rolling dice.


There's plenty to do without rolling skills. If there isn't, pack up and find a better game.

Preferably the DM would be nice enough to let him find something without having to roll for it, yeah, but we don't know the guy and the DM can easily make the call that a skill challenge is in order.

Or it's time to **** with the fighter while he's alone and a fish out of water due to the way his class was designed. So, as I mentioned earlier, basically playing a trust fall exercise with your DM.

Most DMs I trust would stab a knife in my back rather than catch me. Maybe others have had different experiences, but I've run into what seems to be a fairly pervasive belief that they think this is their job as DM.


A crutch, a bandaid, whatever it takes to let the players and the DM have fun creating a story together. Isn't that the point?

Well, the point of departure at which such hoop jumping is no longer fun is the biggest point of contention, I imagine.


nothing spells adventure than fighting off the hoodlum friends of your guide who led you to an alley

That's actually fun and appropriate for the fighter. So, no, that's not what I mean by the DM screwing the fighter there.

Back to the OP, Emmerask's suggestion to find a foreigner/merchant tavern is a fairly good one. As would be seeing if the city has any immigrant enclaves where they'd speak a language you're familiar with.

As is the tried and true gambling and such in pubs and taverns until it's time to get out of Dodge.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 08:47 PM
Well, you already made that clear by suggesting/stating that you don't play DnD by the rules as written anyway with your stated philosophy of RP as a way around the rules.

Excuse me? Where in all this did I depart from the rules? Is there some rule that says a Fighter can't get a guide in town, with all the potential attendant consequences? All I have done is tried to make life interesting within the rules. Don't attempt to delegitimize my argument with false characterizations.


It is, however, one outside the purview of the written rules of the game, which do involve rolling dice.

Do I have to roll the dice to let my character talk to the rest of the party? Do I have to roll the dice to let my character go to the library, the inn, the tavern? The dice-rolling is a mechanical outline for the expression of the campaign world, not the campaign world itself.

That aside, do let me know where I tried to circumvent the rolling of dice. Presumably the guide doesn't auto-succeed on all of his skill checks.


Preferably the DM would be nice enough to let him find something without having to roll for it, yeah, but we don't know the guy and the DM can easily make the call that a skill challenge is in order.

Or it's time to **** with the fighter while he's alone and a fish out of water due to the way his class was designed. So, as I mentioned earlier, basically playing a trust fall exercise with your DM.

Most DMs I trust would stab a knife in my back rather than catch me. Maybe others have had different experiences, but I've run into what seems to be a fairly pervasive belief that they think this is their job as DM.

I really don't know where you got this impression that the Fighter is getting something without rolling for it. Think of it as a circumstance bonus awarded by RP, if you really want to represent the situation mechanically. There are provisions for such in the sourcebooks, IIRC.

I'm sorry your DMs are like that. Obviously they can't catch you every time, but they shouldn't take every opportunity to backstab you. That punishes creativity, and ends up with less campaign and more PvDM than is tasteful.


Well, the point of departure at which such hoop jumping is no longer fun is the biggest point of contention, I imagine.

If the DM refuses to RP NPCs in town, it doesn't matter whether I'm playing Fighter McSwordguy or Wizard McKillerton, I won't have any interesting interactions off the campaign rails.


That's actually fun and appropriate for the fighter. So, no, that's not what I mean by the DM screwing the fighter there.

:smallconfused: Then can you give another example? Maybe the guide robs the fighter blind, and *insert plot hook here*?

urbanpirate
2010-05-16, 08:57 PM
cross class anyone?

when the dm fails to keep in town interesting i tend to make characters do things like use the local buildings, trees and lamp posts as exercise gear, wrestle mounts and read books they don't understand (out loud, very loud)

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 09:08 PM
False slippery slope. The fighter needs to use his head, find a likely place (which, if you feel like it, might require its own Gather Information check), find a likely person, and strike a deal with him.

*slams on the brakes*

Mind if I see this fighter's stats? There's no way a half-orc fighter with 6 cha, for instance, is going to be able to muster the Leadership score to attract a permanent mouthpiece without severe metagaming or fiat.

All I know about the OP's fighter is that he's a duelist with a balance mod of 6. We need a bit more info than that to know what kind of social skills he's able to have, no?

Escheton
2010-05-16, 09:25 PM
yeah, people hate him on sight.
He is also rich from adventuring.
Strange how those things interact.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 09:36 PM
*slams on the brakes*

Mind if I see this fighter's stats? There's no way a half-orc fighter with 6 cha, for instance, is going to be able to muster the Leadership score to attract a permanent mouthpiece without severe metagaming or fiat.

All I know about the OP's fighter is that he's a duelist with a balance mod of 6. We need a bit more info than that to know what kind of social skills he's able to have, no?

Wait, what? I'm not talking about a minion. I'm also not talking 100% success rate. I'm talking about asking the barman if he knows anyone who wouldn't mind some solid cash for showing me around, that sort of thing. I'm talking about simply finding someone who knows the town and asking a few questions. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't--the point is to get a little more creative than "I roll Gather Information."

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 09:47 PM
Wait, what? I'm not talking about a minion. I'm also not talking 100% success rate. I'm talking about asking the barman if he knows anyone who wouldn't mind some solid cash for showing me around, that sort of thing. I'm talking about simply finding someone who knows the town and asking a few questions. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't--the point is to get a little more creative than "I roll Gather Information."

You're missing my point. "Finding someone who knows the town" sounds simple to you, but it is not the kind of thing that just anybody can do successfully. It would be bad roleplay to assume that any character, regardless of attributes/reputation/skills etc. would be able to do such a thing.

And even assuming you can find such a person, there's still the hurdle of actually getting them to work with you. Many NPCs value their hides too much to want to work with adventurers, who are generally regarded as a group with questionable sanity at best. Or that they simply won't lead him into a dark alley and try to rob him blind.

If it's not 100%, then how high or low is it? And what are those numbers based on, if not stats?

cZak
2010-05-16, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
Well, you already made that clear by suggesting/stating that you don't play DnD by the rules as written anyway with your stated philosophy of RP as a way around the rules.

It was my post that recommended stepping outside the RAW.
Sorry you took that, Math Mage.:smallredface:


...basically playing a trust fall exercise with your DM. Most DMs I trust would stab a knife in my back rather than catch me.

Seems like a DM v PC type of game. In past (personal) experiences, not much fun.

Anybody can take 20 on a skill check, pending those with penalties, and near all social skills can be used untrained. It may take longer (DM prerogative), but you can eventually find someone trustworthy to help you blend in with the new town.

Lycanthromancer,
Wow, you got some really hostile feelings about the class. Might I recommend WH40k...

Escheton
2010-05-16, 09:59 PM
fighters can whirlwind a spiked chain with knockdown.
how is that a bad class feature?

WildPyre
2010-05-16, 10:05 PM
There's plenty to do without rolling skills. If there isn't, pack up and find a better game.

This.

D&D is after all a role playing game. It might be fun to have the brutish fighter bumble his way through a city where he doesn't speak the language. It's a good role playing experience and could lead to some interesting encounters and turns of events.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 10:07 PM
fighters can whirlwind a spiked chain with knockdown.
how is that a bad class feature?Definitely useful when trying to talk to NPCs.

...Oh wait.

And I'm not hostile to fighters. I just hate the way they were put together. Hate. HATE. :smalltongue:

I suggest giving them 6 skill points per level, with their choice of skills (same number as now), a feat each level (or fill in ALL the dead levels with useful abilities), and far fewer restrictions on bonus feats. Add to that extra options for mobility, and you might have something.

But as for now? FAIL.

Kirgoth
2010-05-16, 10:13 PM
My suggestion would be to find the god you least like which has temples in town. Go inside, kill everyone, smash it up. Make a chair out of the altar and wait for anyone to come and make issue. Kill them. Boredom solved. Next town repeat with the same god's temple.

:smallsmile:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-16, 10:14 PM
Oh, and magic item creation without actual magic, subject to restrictions.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 10:35 PM
You're missing my point. "Finding someone who knows the town" sounds simple to you, but it is not the kind of thing that just anybody can do successfully. It would be bad roleplay to assume that any character, regardless of attributes/reputation/skills etc. would be able to do such a thing.

And even assuming you can find such a person, there's still the hurdle of actually getting them to work with you. Many NPCs value their hides too much to want to work with adventurers, who are generally regarded as a group with questionable sanity at best. Or that they simply won't lead him into a dark alley and try to rob him blind.

If it's not 100%, then how high or low is it? And what are those numbers based on, if not stats?

Presumably it would require another Gather Information check. But finding a particular obscure piece of information by hanging around town for an evening should be harder than finding out who might know that particular information, someone who's been hanging around town for years. Then it takes some Diplomacy to wheedle the information out of that guy--how much depends on the guy and the information. Or a Diplomacy roll to get the local to show you around. Obviously your reputation as a person and an adventurer is going to influence how they react--a good reason to manage your reputation...

No, you don't meet with 100% success. No, not every character is going to be able to do this as well as every other character. But it's more ways to get something done, which means that more characters will be able to handle it, albeit with varying costs in time and money. I'm not trying to bypass rolling for success. I'm trying to creatively utilize the available scenario and possibly skills, so that a fighter has more to do than make one roll with a 90% failure rate and then sit around the rest of the time.

And, hey. So the Fighter doesn't find out if his rival's been in town, or whatever. There's plenty of other things he can do. He can go to the arena, the library, the play, the tavern, the smithy, the market, the guilds, the *whatever else is in town*. A generous DM might allow the character benefits, or slip plot hooks into the activity. Anything's better than going off to play Xbox when your party returns to civilization.

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 10:59 PM
And, hey. So the Fighter doesn't find out if his rival's been in town, or whatever. There's plenty of other things he can do. He can go to the arena, the library, the play, the tavern, the smithy, the market, the guilds, the *whatever else is in town*. A generous DM might allow the character benefits, or slip plot hooks into the activity. Anything's better than going off to play Xbox when your party returns to civilization.

A fighter can do all those things anyway, and let the rest of the party do the actual sleuthing, without providing him with a leadership-less cohort/hireling/page boy.

Lycan's point was that fighters stink out loud solo, and he's right. Pointing out that the DM can get around this weakness by awarding circumstance bonuses to everything his player comes up with is textbook Oberoni Fallacy.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-16, 11:04 PM
A fighter can do all those things anyway, and let the rest of the party do the actual sleuthing, without providing him with a leadership-less cohort/hireling/page boy.

Lycan's point was that fighters stink out loud solo, and he's right. Pointing out that the DM can get around this weakness by awarding circumstance bonuses to everything his player comes up with is textbook Oberoni Fallacy.
Not everything needs to be done by the roll of the dice. How about you, you know, role play it. A good back and forth role play, while difficult to get started, can potentially be far more rewarding then 'Hey, I got 50 on my Diplomacy check! The king is now my *female canine*!"

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-16, 11:16 PM
If being pro means you can't have fun unless you're throwing a sword, spell, or skill check at it, I'll pass, thanks. :smallyuk:

Thumbs up! to me most of the best roleplaying doesn't actually involve rolls

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 11:18 PM
Not everything needs to be done by the roll of the dice. How about you, you know, role play it. A good back and forth role play, while difficult to get started, can potentially be far more rewarding then 'Hey, I got 50 on my Diplomacy check! The king is now my *female canine*!"

So... my 8 Int fighter comes up with brilliant plans because I, as his player, do? How would that be good roleplaying? :smallconfused:

WildPyre
2010-05-16, 11:21 PM
So... my 8 Int fighter comes up with brilliant plans because I, as his player, do? How would that be good roleplaying? :smallconfused:

The plan need not be brilliant... if your fighter is an idiot, role play him as an idiot. Just because there isn't a fight going on doesn't mean the fighter goes into hibernation. Have fun with your low INT fighter in awkward social situations.

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 11:25 PM
Successfully finding a loyal, friendly, helpful tour guide with no charisma, social skills, or leadership whatsoever is fiat, not roleplaying. Which leads me back to my original question - does the OP's fighter have the necessary crunch to do this?

Piedmon_Sama
2010-05-16, 11:33 PM
Optimystik has a point, in that enabling a low-charisma character to speak and interact with others easily is kind of "cheating" (that's why I never roleplay a character with Cha under 9), and likewise having low-Int characters develop complex plans, or low-Wis chars make sensible decisions navigating a dungeon, or whatever. I think by far though, most groups will overlook it if the Barbarian's player wants to make a rousing speech, or prepares a cunning trap, or whatever. Up to a point.

It depends on just how far you went. I don't think a player with 8/9 Cha should be punished by having to sit in the corner everytime the party starts negotiating, or a 9 Int fighter should have to write his suggestions down and hand them to the Wizard's player. If you're talking ability scores of like, 6, or even 4.... then yeah, life is hard, because at that point your character is basically disabled or autistic or something's seriously wrong there.

EDIT: Also social skill checks are a tool to make interacting with NPCs go faster if you don't want to roleplay, if the players want to make friendships with NPCs and you penalize them for not having Diplomacy ranks then you're a doofy DM.

WildPyre
2010-05-16, 11:35 PM
I'm not suggesting you find an NPC hireling to do the work... I'm suggesting that if you want to do something in town, you play the character that you've rolled. Having a language barrier between you and the town is an obsticle but possibly a fun one to role play out.

If you look at the commoner class you'll notice that in theory the vast majority of civilized people get by every day without having any ranks in social skills.

Just because you can't run around town being a diplomonster doesn't mean the game is effectively over for you until the next fight.

Math_Mage
2010-05-16, 11:43 PM
A fighter can do all those things anyway, and let the rest of the party do the actual sleuthing, without providing him with a leadership-less cohort/hireling/page boy.

Lycan's point was that fighters stink out loud solo, and he's right. Pointing out that the DM can get around this weakness by awarding circumstance bonuses to everything his player comes up with is textbook Oberoni Fallacy.

-I'm not suggesting a cohort.
-That wasn't Lycan's point.
-That wasn't my point.

*sigh*

Let's go allll the way back to the OP, who was asking what he can do with a Fighter while in town. Lycan responded that the player can't do anything while in town because the Fighter chassis is so bad. I said that a clever player can have fun in town despite a fighter chassis. One scenario I pointed out was the problem of looking for a specific piece of obscure information, where a fighter might not opt for the uber-hard Gather Information check, and instead make an easier Gather Information check to find someone who might have access to the relevant information. To the OP's specific problem with the language barrier, I suggested finding a guide at the local tavern, which should surely be a very easy GI/Diplomacy check (although the guide may not be trustworthy, but this will also lead to an interesting course of events in town, and is surely preferable to doing nothing).

When I mention the OP finding a guide at the local tavern, how exactly do you conclude that I am trying to give the Fighter a cohort? When I specifically admit that the interaction with the guide is vulnerable to abuse because it's a Fighter we're talking about, how do you conclude that I am looking for auto-success at finding a "loyal, friendly, helpful" person? When I specifically admit that the Fighter is a less suitable chassis for social interaction than other classes, how exactly do you conclude that I am arguing an Oberoni fallacy? :smallannoyed:

Also, I don't know about your Fighters--mine has 14 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha. Not every Fighter has to be a mega-optimized ubercharger, y'see. I wouldn't count on him making lots of friends, but the sorts of reasonable plans I've described shouldn't be beyond his intellect just because he's a Fighter.

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 12:23 AM
When I specifically admit that the Fighter is a less suitable chassis for social interaction than other classes, how exactly do you conclude that I am arguing an Oberoni fallacy? :smallannoyed:

Oberoni Fallacy - "there is no problem with the class, because the DM can circumvent any problems with the class by providing it what it needs."

This is a fallacy, because the mere fact that the DM has to circumvent anything, proves that there is a problem that needs to be circumvented.

Lycan said:


And as I alluded to, the fighter needs a crutch in order to function outside of a fight. Having to rely on a pet NPC to make your skill rolls for you just highlights how bad the fighter is outside of whacking things to death.

And circumventing skill checks for the fighter makes anyone that actually USES their skill list look like a buffoon for spending resources on something the fighter gets because the DM feels sorry for them.

Now, I never said your suggestion wouldn't work - I only said we can't propose anything until we know more about the OP's fighter.

(I also think "he can just hire this handy NPC who is absolutely not a cohort to make his social interaction rolls on his behalf" to be iffy at best.)



Also, I don't know about your Fighters

You don't know anything about the OP's either, save that he is a duelist with a Balance mod of 6.

Math_Mage
2010-05-17, 12:53 AM
Oberoni Fallacy - "there is no problem with the class, because the DM can circumvent any problems with the class by providing it what it needs."

This is a fallacy, because the mere fact that the DM has to circumvent anything, proves that there is a problem that needs to be circumvented.

Lovely, but that wasn't the subject under discussion. The question was not whether the Fighter can do anything the Bard or Rogue can do in town, but whether the Fighter can do anything in town at all. The question was not "is there a problem?" but "what can we do despite the problem?"


Lycan said:

I'm aware.


Now, I never said your suggestion wouldn't work - I only said we can't propose anything until we know more about the OP's fighter.

And that my suggestion constituted an Oberoni fallacy, and that a guide is a cohort.


(I also think "he can just hire this handy NPC who is absolutely not a cohort to make his social interaction rolls on his behalf" to be iffy at best.)

Why? He had to make social interaction rolls to find the NPC, he's paying the NPC, and he doesn't know that the NPC will succeed where he presumably failed. The NPC won't stick around too long for RP reasons, and he's not necessarily trustworthy either, and he almost certainly isn't going to stick around to help with any fighting (NOT A COHORT! :smallfurious:). What is your justification for saying that the scenario is either implausible or unbalancing?


You don't know anything about the OP's either, save that he is a duelist with a Balance mod of 6.

Well, we already know what happens if the poor guy has mental stats all 6's. A dozen people have mentioned the awkward social situations such a Fighter might get into in town for the lulz. I think we can move past that and consider what happens with a Fighter that hasn't been optimized out the wazoo for hitting things and only hitting things.

Nice to know the Stormwind Fallacy has limits, btw.

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 01:03 AM
Lovely, but that wasn't the subject under discussion. The question was not whether the Fighter can do anything the Bard or Rogue can do in town, but whether the Fighter can do anything in town at all. The question was not "is there a problem?" but "what can we do despite the problem?"

I already okayed a number of your suggestions - head to the arena, head to the bar, head to the smithy etc. He might have quite a bit of trouble actually locating the plot hooks without the other party members helping out, but that's their job anyway - unless the DM is going to drop something in his lap, which can be done regardless of his class.


And that my suggestion constituted an Oberoni fallacy, and that a guide is a cohort.

If he does everything the OP wants him to without complaint or trickery, is there a difference that matters?


Why? He had to make social interaction rolls to find the NPC, he's paying the NPC, and he doesn't know that the NPC will succeed where he presumably failed. The NPC won't stick around too long for RP reasons, and he's not necessarily trustworthy either, and he almost certainly isn't going to stick around to help with any fighting (NOT A COHORT! :smallfurious:). What is your justification for saying that the scenario is either implausible or unbalancing?

The fact that he's able to find such a magical NPC and enlist his aid in the first place?



Nice to know the Stormwind Fallacy has limits, btw.

I don't recall mentioning Stormwind anywhere, but okay. :smallconfused:

Set
2010-05-17, 01:16 AM
It's town. You do what all Fighters do.

Hookers and blow, man, hookers and blow.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 01:48 AM
Anybody can take 20 on a skill check, pending those with penalties, and near all social skills can be used untrained.Taking 20 on Gather Information check will take 70 hours. :smallcool:

Also, can't take 20 on Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate or Sense Motive.

Quincunx
2010-05-17, 02:20 AM
Make STAT checks then, instead of skill checks. Use that Strength!

If you want to be friendly, impress the local kids by dangling a few of them off of each arm (Strength checks) and putting that Balance skill to use by doing it on one end of a seesaw while all the other kids dogpile the other end. Kids are ambassadors.

Who needs an Appraise skill for pure metals when you have practiced hefting sacks with 1000GP worth of coins-of-this-metal? (Hope you trust your party rogue to have placed 1000GP exactly in that bag. :smallwink: )

Lend a hand at the docks or anywhere else menials are struggling under a heavy load. It could lead to a plot hook when you stop people from being squashed, or it could just lead to a well-earned tankard of ale.

Arm-wrestle in the tavern. Gotta let those menials try to win back their pride. If the situation gets tense, deliberately fail a check or two, if your character is willing to swallow his pride.

I don't know why people are talking about cohorts when hirelings exist for much lower wages and much less permanence. A scholarly urban cartographer could be hired and an ornamental Map of Our City purchased, freelance translators wouldn't be uncommon if languages naturally mix in a city, and even in the smallest town there's someone who will find it more attractive to be paid for a day of yammering (regardless of whether the payer understands the yammer or not) instead of manual labor.

Sliver
2010-05-17, 02:27 AM
(I also think "he can just hire this handy NPC who is absolutely not a cohort to make his social interaction rolls on his behalf" to be iffy at best.)


The fact that he's able to find such a magical NPC and enlist his aid in the first place?

So much hate against Hirelings? (DMG p.105)

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 02:37 AM
If you want to be friendly,

You wouldn't, with low Charisma,


If the situation gets tense, deliberately fail a check or two, if your character is willing to swallow his pride.

You'd need Intelligence to think of this plan and Wisdom to notice any tension.

All the plans you guys are coming up with to play to a fighter's strengths are great - my problem is that it is only the very wise, intelligent and charismatic players who could feasibly come up with these plans, not the average fighter who you're supposed to be roleplaying.

If your fighter is out of the ordinary, that's great. Hopefully the OP's is.


I don't know why people are talking about cohorts when hirelings exist for much lower wages and much less permanence.


So much hate against Hirelings? (DMG p.105)


A hireling is a great idea - if the fighter gets a good one. He has neither Sense Motive, Appraise, Gather Information nor Diplomacy under his belt to help him separate the wheat from the chaff. And if he doesn't, at best he's getting swindled for more than the services are worth. At worst, he's getting false information or leading the enemy to the party (or vice versa.)

And if all of the ones the DM provides are good, that means everyone else in the party can get one too - so there's still no need for the fighter to be the person to acquire one.

apolloxi11
2010-05-17, 03:21 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions and the discussion. I think once my group gets back to the game I will try something that would fit the character.

Sliver
2010-05-17, 03:26 AM
And if all of the ones the DM provides are good, that means everyone else in the party can get one too - so there's still no need for the fighter to be the person to acquire one.

I thought this discussion was about what a fighter you might play can do in town, not about something only the group's fighter can do besides battle. What is important about the point that what the fighter does can be recreated by others?

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 03:51 AM
I thought this discussion was about what a fighter you might play can do in town, not about something only the group's fighter can do besides battle. What is important about the point that what the fighter does can be recreated by others?

Math Mage had a list of plenty of things the fighter can do in town - none of which required hiring a tour guide or fudged rolls from the DM. (Arena, tavern, smithy etc.)

Of course, none of them really had anything to do with actively seeking plot hooks either (though hooks could of course be found in those places.)

Sliver
2010-05-17, 04:05 AM
Math Mage had a list of plenty of things the fighter can do in town - none of which required hiring a tour guide or fudged rolls from the DM. (Arena, tavern, smithy etc.)

Of course, none of them really had anything to do with actively seeking plot hooks either (though hooks could of course be found in those places.)

:smallconfused: I fail to see how that is relevant. "He can do other things that don't require hiring anybody or the DM adjusting to the character. So any other activity can be copied by other characters and thus is invalid."

That is what I get from your line of reasoning.

You: "that means everyone else in the party can get [a hireling] too - so there's still no need for the fighter to be the person to acquire one."

Me: that doesn't mean the fighter can't do it, which is what being asked - "what can a fighter do in town"

You: There were already things suggested that don't require hiring an NPC.

At what point did I fail to see the point?

Quincunx
2010-05-17, 06:10 AM
You wouldn't, with low Charisma. . .

First, low charisma doesn't stop you from having social desires so much as it does stop you from knowing the effective ways to fulfill them. Second. . .


. . .All the plans you guys are coming up with to play to a fighter's strengths are great - my problem is that it is only the very wise, intelligent and charismatic players who could feasibly come up with these plans. . .

. . .I think we're all operating on a much less restrictive interpretation of average or low stats than you are. You don't need great self-insight (a positive Wisdom modifier) to want to be liked, or the ability to do mental math (positive Intelligence modifier) to pay for a beer, or a worthy pick-up line (positive Charisma modifier) to use a pick-up line. "Average Joe"s live, work, and play--so do mildly disadvantaged joes. '8' is not a stat of no volition.

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 07:56 AM
You: "that means everyone else in the party can get [a hireling] too - so there's still no need for the fighter to be the person to acquire one."

Me: that doesn't mean the fighter can't do it, which is what being asked - "what can a fighter do in town"

He is not the best person to do it either, given that he lacks the requisite skills to judge a hireling's worth.

The same skills he lacks that would require him to rely on a hireling are unfortunately the same skills he needs to find a good one. Thus, the fighter is screwed either way, unless every hireling in town (read: the DM) is willing to bypass those weaknesses and help the fighter out.


'8' is not a stat of no volition.

It's the lowest that a human can go, and plenty of humans are socially handicapped. Where would you put social ineffectiveness at, then? 6? 4?

hamishspence
2010-05-17, 08:01 AM
The lowest a human can go using pregenerated arrays.

If rolling 3d6 for some NPC stats, it can go much lower.

Lysander
2010-05-17, 08:18 AM
I think this entire discussion is missing the fact that the townsfolk are supposedly living breathing people, not machines with a slot that says INSERT DIPLOMACY CHECK HERE.

Who's to say they aren't going to approach the fighter and try to find out more about him and the party? Think about it. He might not have a high charisma score but he's still a big tough looking dude loaded with weapons. People might want his assistance with something, or to hear tales of his battles. Little children might want him to show them tricks with his sword. Merchants, both honest and dishonest, might want to peddle goods to him. Translators might eye his fat purse and offer their services in exchange for payment.

If the town is entirely inert and not remotely curious in the party the DM hasn't done their job.

hamishspence
2010-05-17, 08:33 AM
If the town is entirely inert and not remotely curious in the party the DM hasn't done their job.

yes: OoTS had an interesting approach to how the folk of small towns react to adventurers:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 08:49 AM
...By trying to swindle them. Prosecution rests.

Since we're bringing up OotS, the comic also points out the dangers of being on your own in town with low mental stats, several times.
Example 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0574.html)
Example 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)
Example 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html)

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-17, 09:04 AM
Just a question.. Why is assumed that the fighter has low int and low cha?

Best fighter builds need the fighter being quite a smart person (Int 13+ for combat expertise) and/or a quite charismatic person (Cha 15+ for Zentharim Soldier ACF + Imperious command).

Reach int 14 and you got 4 skill/level, 5 if human. Not huge but is something. I suppose there are feats to add skills to your class skills.

BTW, you don't need (even if is recommended) huge strenght for the 4-6 relevant charge feats. Power Attack needs a 13+ Str. A quite MAD fighter could be fun to role I guess (even if he should rely more on buffs on the battlefield, or should be more challenging to play, not a bad thing per se).

As a side note, Complete Adventurer suggest to use BAB in place of perform for weapon shows, so I guess that the chain tripper fighter above could draw attention someway without beating someone...

Greenish
2010-05-17, 09:10 AM
Just a question? Why is assumed that the fighter has low int and low cha?Because you (usally) have limited amount of points/good rolls/gold you can use on your ability scores, and fighters don't get much out of mental stats.

Best fighter builds need the fighter being quite a smart person (Int 13+ for combat expertise)If trippers are the best. I've heard chargers are decent too, for a fighter build.

and/or a quite charismatic person (Cha 15+ for Zentharim Soldier ACF + Imperious command).Nine levels of fighter + MAD to do stuff many high level enemies are immune to isn't very impressive.

Lysander
2010-05-17, 09:14 AM
Also, diplomacy only comes into play when you're trying to change someone's natural attitude. If someone's attitude is "woah, a cool looking warrior" you don't need to change their attitude.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-17, 09:18 AM
Immune.. it depends from the campaign. Moreover, you could even encounter more weaker foes intead of a big one. Or all in the same time, so you have the need of divide them.. or whatever.

Well, a good fighter is MAD.. I know. So what?

valadil
2010-05-17, 09:25 AM
Successfully finding a loyal, friendly, helpful tour guide with no charisma, social skills, or leadership whatsoever is fiat, not roleplaying. Which leads me back to my original question - does the OP's fighter have the necessary crunch to do this?

Chatting up townsfolk and befriending them is not something that requires skill ranks or a positive diplomacy score. It's the sort of thing everyone does. Without the right skills you probably won't meet up with the king out for a stroll in his peasant disguise or make a deal with the captain of the guard to let you work the night shift. But you'll definitely be able to make contacts and entertain yourself.

Even if the fighter is no social butterfly, I don't see why that should prevent him from talking to people. Yes, the bard is better at it. Does that mean the bard is the only one who can hit on women at the tavern? Even if he knows he has no social graces, I don't see why the fighter would admit defeat and sit in his hotel room waiting for adventure to happen.

Asheram
2010-05-17, 09:29 AM
I'm reading this thread over and over, and I can't seem to understand it.

Are you people arguing about that the fighter is presumably inept at taking care of himself due to not having any skillpoints in Diplomacy and Sense motive or because he probably doesn't have much Int or Cha?

The Glyphstone
2010-05-17, 09:29 AM
For everyone screaming "OMG DM FIAT" at the top of their lungs...why, exactly, is this a bad thing? It's been accepted that the player's class, a Fighter, is likely not suited for social interaction, with higher-than-average odds of dumping mental stats and low skill points. So why are people advocating that he should be punished for his choice by being forbidden to roleplay non-combat interactions without having to roll dice to back up his actions? Last I checked, the DM is there to make the game fun for the players, not arbitrarily screw them over by ensuring that every NPC they can't beat in a Sense Motive check is a con man. If the player wants to have fun in town by RPing something other than combat, then the DM can let him do so, even if it requires *gasp* fiating.

valadil
2010-05-17, 10:00 AM
Are you people arguing about that the fighter is presumably inept at taking care of himself due to not having any skillpoints in Diplomacy and Sense motive or because he probably doesn't have much Int or Cha?

Yes, I think that's the argument. I'd agree that it's not tactically wise for the fighter to do all of the party's talking. But for in town shenanigans I don't see why he should be held back.

Quincunx
2010-05-17, 10:43 AM
[A stat of 8 is] the lowest that a human can go, and plenty of humans are socially handicapped. Where would you put social ineffectiveness at, then? 6? 4?

. . .we are definitely playing on different scales. I see humans with ability scores on a bell curve stretching from 3 to 18. On that scale, an ability mod of 1, positive or negative, still means you're one of the ordinary masses. People wouldn't expect you to botch your stat checks until -2 modifier (ability score 7), not only because you're demonstrably worse at it, but because there's fewer people around as disadvantaged as you. Since people don't often pick odd-numbered scores, let's say that I call a score of 6 significant impairment, and 4 barely functioning.

Asheram
2010-05-17, 12:22 PM
. . .we are definitely playing on different scales. I see humans with ability scores on a bell curve stretching from 3 to 18. On that scale, an ability mod of 1, positive or negative, still means you're one of the ordinary masses. People wouldn't expect you to botch your stat checks until -2 modifier (ability score 7), not only because you're demonstrably worse at it, but because there's fewer people around as disadvantaged as you. Since people don't often pick odd-numbered scores, let's say that I call a score of 6 visible impairment, and 4 barely functioning.

I agree... Thinking that The Elite array from the monster manual is at 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
And Nonelite array on 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8.

Then just about Everyone has a disability if an 8 is a handicap. :smallconfused:

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 12:46 PM
Those stat arrays are for quickly generating NPCs. They are not intended to represent every single creature in the multiverse.

Mercenary Pen
2010-05-17, 01:52 PM
Another trick you could try when roleplaying a fighter is turning his combat reflexes and experience into a detriment... maybe he's seen one battle too many.

For example:
Beer mug smashes on the ground in the tavern and the fighter hears it (hearing this probably doesn't have a high DC). Fighter mistakes it for some alchemical weapon shattering, kicks the table over as a barricade and drops prone...

Maybe this isn't the way you want your fighter to be, and it's certainly something that could get very old very fast, but it does inject a little bit of character into the fighter beyond "I hit things, they stay down".

Greenish
2010-05-17, 02:00 PM
Another trick you could try when roleplaying a fighter is turning his combat reflexes and experience into a detriment... maybe he's seen one battle too many.DM:"She moves away from you."
Fighter: "I have Combat Reflexes! I get to AoO!"
DM: "…But she's just an old lady who hasn't done anything to you."
Fighter: "I get AoOs even when I'm flat-footed, I got Combat Reflexes!"
DM: "But she hasn't threatened you in any way!"
Fighter: "All that matters for AoOs is that I threaten, and I've got armor spikes!"

Mercenary Pen
2010-05-17, 03:33 PM
DM:"She moves away from you."
Fighter: "I have Combat Reflexes! I get to AoO!"
DM: "…But she's just an old lady who hasn't done anything to you."
Fighter: "I get AoOs even when I'm flat-footed, I got Combat Reflexes!"
DM: "But she hasn't threatened you in any way!"
Fighter: "All that matters for AoOs is that I threaten, and I've got armor spikes!"

I laughed at this.

Coidzor
2010-05-17, 05:12 PM
Ah... PTFD...

Mercenary Pen
2010-05-17, 06:07 PM
Ah... PTFD...

Post-Traumatic Fighter Disorder?

Coidzor
2010-05-17, 06:45 PM
Post-Traumatic Fighter Disorder?

Ayessir, yessir, indeed.

Lysander
2010-05-17, 08:57 PM
Chatting up townsfolk and befriending them is not something that requires skill ranks or a positive diplomacy score. It's the sort of thing everyone does. Without the right skills you probably won't meet up with the king out for a stroll in his peasant disguise or make a deal with the captain of the guard to let you work the night shift. But you'll definitely be able to make contacts and entertain yourself.

Even if the fighter is no social butterfly, I don't see why that should prevent him from talking to people. Yes, the bard is better at it. Does that mean the bard is the only one who can hit on women at the tavern? Even if he knows he has no social graces, I don't see why the fighter would admit defeat and sit in his hotel room waiting for adventure to happen.

Exactly. You don't need to make diplomacy checks for simple human interaction any more than you need to make balance checks just to walk down a normal sidewalk.

And there's no reason you couldn't make untrained gather information checks to find someone who speaks your language. Enter a bar, buy a few drinks (coin is a universal language), and your new friends will try to find someone to speak with you. I think a DC 15 check is reasonable. Or find a merchant district, where I bet traders will speak common and can help you out.

Escheton
2010-05-18, 04:50 AM
Exactly. You don't need to make diplomacy checks for simple human interaction any more than you need to make balance checks just to walk down a normal sidewalk.

And there's no reason you couldn't make untrained gather information checks to find someone who speaks your language. Enter a bar, buy a few drinks (coin is a universal language), and your new friends will try to find someone to speak with you. I think a DC 15 check is reasonable. Or find a merchant district, where I bet traders will speak common and can help you out.

yes you do
everytime you talk to someone you roll it, even in real life.
If you stumble on your words you failed, if you come up with a brilliant line you critted. And people disrespect you on a low roll. It might not actually effect much, but if you talk to half the town with a low cha expect a reputation as the bumbling brute.

also, as the actual skill states, the coin is part of the check.

Last Laugh
2010-05-18, 06:38 AM
Some might find it interesting, but 'hit things harder' doesn't really aspire to much.

He could aspire to hit things harder than they have ever been hit before!
If he has biiig dreams he could aspire to hit everything harder than it's been hit before!

but that might get old after the first house.

Ceaon
2010-05-18, 06:54 AM
Although there's a lot of discussion on the use of fighters in between my post and the original post, I am going to ignore all that and tell the story of Ceaon, my first character in a 3.5 campaign. He was a straight fighter with some points in intimidate.

Ceaon, mercenary and servant of a green dragon, was a mysterious and pretty yet obnoxious older guy with a pretty intimidating style. Even though he wasn't particularly well-spoken (no diplomacy), knowledgable (no knowledge skills) or even perceptive (no spot, listen, sense motive or even search), many inhabitants of the world were interested by this man. A warrior who lived by the sword. Some sort of enigma. Although not very charismatic, he had a terrifying gaze and seemed a combat veteran.

However, whenever someone tried to speak to him, he seemed to end the conversation as quickly as possible, preferring to remain in the shadows. "What could he be hiding?", many an NPC (and even some PCs) thought, and he was often approached by strangers who had heard the name Ceaon before.

Whenever he'd need something from one of these people, he'd ask (or if that failed, intimidate) them to bring him draconic artifacts (claws, teeth, scales) which he wanted for no particular purpose at all.

As a well-known mercenary, people would often offer him jobs, at which point his charismatic comrades would jump in to make the most profitable deal possible.

He was known to be a very lawful, very honourable and very dark hireling, with a mysterious past. During the end of the campaign, the green dragon he had been serving even made an appearance, and the dragon would speak only to the party through Ceaon, making for some interesting role-playing ("I use diplomacy to teach Ceaon how to be nicer to the dragon!").

Now, I must admit that with scores in the area of Str 16/Dex 13/Con 10/Int 13/Wis 12/Cha 14, Ceaon was not your typical fighter, crunchwise, but he was still a skillpoints-shy, swordcarrying doorkicker. During combat, mechanically, he'd walk up to an enemy, smack it in the face, get smacked right back, and then watch how the sorceress of the party dominated his target.

I roleplayed him as if he protected the others (which, in fact, was almost never necessairy), while seemingly still a cold-hearted loner outside of combat. It was this contradiction that made the character very interesting.

Together with the DM, I had worked out a cool back story for this character (this is by no means DM fiat, IMHO). This provided me with plot hooks and something to do while others had actual skills to use.

What I'm trying to say is, as soon as you think of your character as , the level X [insert class here], it'll be much harder to think outside of the box.
Ceaon never [I]felt like a fighter, he felt like the mysterious mercenary I had made of him.

I will admit though, that fighters have a hard job doing this kinda stuff. Their stats and skills do not easily lend themselves to a rich backstory.
However, your fighter is probably GOOD at what he does. People should have an impression of him, good or bad, because of this, even if his social skillls are lacking and he has no other abilities than swinging a sword really well.
He's a Badass Normal, if you will: every commoner could, in theory, become a fighter as well. They'll never become sorcerers or druids, but they could quite reasonably learn to swing a weapon really well. This makes the fighter a class to which the common folk can easily relate to.

In the D&D world, adventurers should always be able to feel special. And even for fighters, this specialness is attainable, although maybe in less flashy ways.

Edit: in terms of aspirations for this character: he wanted to make sure the dragon he served would be proud of him, because she had chosen him as a cohort. This also provided some good roleplaying, since the dragon was evil, yet Ceaon was very much neutral. So yes, there are aspirations for fighters other than "hitting something harder". Revenge, ambition, responsibility and even paranoia can all be reasons to want to continue adventuring.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-18, 07:22 AM
I think what's sad is that it sounds like many of the posters in this thread play games that go like:

Fighter PC: I go to the barman and ask for a stein of beer. I give him gold and tell him to keep any change.
DM: Ok! Make a diplomacy check.
Fighter PC: Huh? Ok... Crud... 4
DM: Oh, that's unfortunate. Because you have 8 charisma, he started out unfriendly, but now he's hostile. He jumps the bar and attacks you.
Fighter PC: Oh well, that's what I get for playing a fighter!

Escheton
2010-05-18, 07:28 AM
hostile and violent arent the same.

Asheram
2010-05-18, 07:52 AM
hostile and violent arent the same.

Unless it's in a bar. :smallwink:

Naw, but honestly. Entering into a bar and ordering round after round on yourself to a bunch of grateful patrons, even if you have a -5 on diplomacy I'd wager after an hour or two they'd be your "Beschtest, beschtest friend in... Everywere, I tell you! Hahahaha! ... could I have another drink?"

Lysander
2010-05-18, 09:24 AM
yes you do
everytime you talk to someone you roll it, even in real life.
If you stumble on your words you failed, if you come up with a brilliant line you critted. And people disrespect you on a low roll. It might not actually effect much, but if you talk to half the town with a low cha expect a reputation as the bumbling brute.

also, as the actual skill states, the coin is part of the check.

By that logic 1/20 times you attempt to buy a pack of gum you'll critically fail your diplomacy roll and get kicked out of the store. The diplomacy skill says it's only to "change the attitude of others". So as long as everyone is indifferent and you're ok with that, it's not a problem. Most people have indifferent or neutral attitudes to each other. It might be hard for the fighter to make friends, or appease enemies, but for simple everyday interaction diplomacy isn't needed.

valadil
2010-05-18, 09:35 AM
yes you do
everytime you talk to someone you roll it, even in real life.
If you stumble on your words you failed, if you come up with a brilliant line you critted. And people disrespect you on a low roll. It might not actually effect much, but if you talk to half the town with a low cha expect a reputation as the bumbling brute.

also, as the actual skill states, the coin is part of the check.

Except that the difficulty for talking to someone is ridiculously low. So low that rolling a d20 on it is pointless.

Example:
Fighter: *makes phone call* Hi, I'd like to order a pizza!
*rolls natural 1*
Pizza dude: No, you're too ugly. Call back later when your face is better.
Fighter: Sorry about that, I'll have the bard call you back.

Nothing works that way. I suppose its possible to crit fail at ordering a pizza, but even the least charismatic person you ever met should succeed at it 99.9% of the time.

While it's possible to fail at mundane tasks, a d20 does not offer sufficient granularity to judge this. If you had to roll for everything between getting out of bed and tying your shoes in the morning, you'd crit fail and die four times over before you left the house. The chances of impaling yourself with your toothbrush, even at -2 dexterity, are so low they just aren't worth rolling.

These examples are ridiculous. Let's take driving. Driving a car is something that's fatal if you botch. How often should you make a driving check? Every time you get in the car? Every mile you pass? I've got 35k miles on my current car. 10k on the last one. Let's round that up to 50,000 miles when you factor in all the driving I did on my parents' vehicles. No crashes to date. If I rolled a d20 for every time I drove, I'd certainly have rolled natural 1s by now. Still haven't failed at driving. Does that mean I'm incapable of having an accident? Doubtful. It just means the odds of an accident are below what a d20 can determine. 5% granularity is too high for mundane tasks. Certain things aren't worth rolling in a system like D&D.

Most social interactions are like this. You can reserve a hotel room or order a pizza without a roll. Maybe while the bard is haggling for magic items, the fighter can be picking up standard supplies, where a 10% discount comes out to a few silver. Or just making friends and allies. There are plenty of things he can be doing that are so easy he doesn't need a skill check.

Emmerask
2010-05-18, 09:38 AM
yes you do
everytime you talk to someone you roll it, even in real life.
If you stumble on your words you failed, if you come up with a brilliant line you critted. And people disrespect you on a low roll. It might not actually effect much, but if you talk to half the town with a low cha expect a reputation as the bumbling brute.

also, as the actual skill states, the coin is part of the check.

If you insist on that I would also insist on having a balance, strength and constitution check for every single step or movement of your arm you make :smallbiggrin:

player: I want to cast xyz
dm: okay pls make 20 balance, 20 strength and 20 constitution checks if one fails the spell fails.
player: ...

/edit 20 dex checks might be in order too and perhaps a sleight of hand for getting something out of your pouch :smallwink:

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-18, 09:48 AM
hostile and violent arent the same.

From the Diplomacy entry in the SRD:

{table]Attitude|Means|Possible Actions
Hostile|Will take risks to hurt you|Attack, interfere, berate, flee
[/table]

Either way, my post was meant to be an exaggeration.

Escheton
2010-05-18, 10:14 AM
rolling a 1 on a skill check isnt a crit miss.
but rolling a 1 on ordering a pizza might have you stumble on your words, thinking on what you where trying to say and then forgetting what you wanted. Then hanging up to think about it.
and biology and physics will tell you that each step does include many balance checks.
and hurting for most people involves gossip and alerting the bouncer/guards. Few people, especially females, will physically attack you. Partly because of how it reflects apon them.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-18, 10:22 AM
I never said he rolled a one...

What I posted was a heavy handed example of what a lot of D&D sessions must be like, going by a large number of people posting that the fighter will fail at any attempt to do anything outside of combat.

valadil
2010-05-18, 10:28 AM
rolling a 1 on a skill check isnt a crit miss.
but rolling a 1 on ordering a pizza might have you stumble on your words, thinking on what you where trying to say and then forgetting what you wanted. Then hanging up to think about it.
and biology and physics will tell you that each step does include many balance checks.
and hurting for most people involves gossip and alerting the bouncer/guards. Few people, especially females, will physically attack you. Partly because of how it reflects apon them.

But most people are forgiving if you stumble your words. It doesn't matter if you botch there. It's harmless. You shouldn't bother rolling dice unless each outcome is interesting. Failing to order pizza would require a huge chain of failures beyond just stumbling once or twice.

Yes, there is balance going into each step you make. Not enough to be worth rolling a die. If you have to start rolling for that you might as well roll to breath.

If you really want to model the chance that someone will fail at basic stuff, here's my suggestion. It shouldn't be done on the same scale as D&D skills. Rolling a bunch of DC 5 stat checks and hoping to not get a 3 isn't interesting. The scale is lower than what D&D skills were designed for.

Instead take somebody's stat. Not the modifier, but the stat. Roll that many d6s. If there are a majority of ones, you fail. So a fighter with 7 charisma would roll 7d6 on his pizza ordering check. He'd fail on 4-7 natural 1s. Low odds, even for the fighter, but still possible. Highly unlikely that the bard with 18 charisma will fail.

Escheton
2010-05-18, 10:29 AM
I never said he rolled a one...

What I posted was a heavy handed example of what a lot of D&D sessions must be like, going by a large number of people posting that the fighter will fail at any attempt to do anything outside of combat.

no, but like 3 others did.


But most people are forgiving if you stumble your words. It doesn't matter if you botch there. It's harmless. You shouldn't bother rolling dice unless each outcome is interesting. Failing to order pizza would require a huge chain of failures beyond just stumbling once or twice.
.

they are forgiving to charismatic people. Or people they think are like them.
weird people (adventurers) that are also uncharismatic tend to get negative results. Yes that is chalking up all fighters as uncharismatic, boohoo

Ormur
2010-05-18, 10:31 AM
I can well see how you could fail at ordering pizza. Maybe you're so incoherent that the pizzeria thinks you're making a prank call and hang up or they don't know what you want and give you the wrong toppings.

But you can't critically fail skill checks. You can succeed by rolling 1 if you have enough ranks and bonuses. I'm speaking as someone that might roll a -1 on a charisma based pizza ordering roll because I have no ranks in diplomacy. I don't think it's too far out that I screw up about 1 in 20 pizza orderings I make. If you don't have cha penalty or a single rank in diplomacy you won't ever fail such mundane social interactions. But you're right that brushing your teeth and something like that probably has a negative difficult class. You need to be substantially impaired to fail at them and that usually means nothing happens. You have to fail at something by more than 5 to harm yourself.

If you're driving you hopefully earned a rank in driving and you'll only fail when rolling badly plus circumstance penalties (most accidents happen because of bad conditions, drunk driving etc).

valadil
2010-05-18, 10:37 AM
they are forgiving to charismatic people. Or people they think are like them.
weird people (adventurers) that are also uncharismatic tend to get negative results. Yes that is chalking up all fighters as uncharismatic, boohoo

Have you ever worked with customers? There's a lot of stupidity you have to forgive. Believe me, you don't save it for the charismatic ones. They're a rarity.

Out of curiosity, are you arguing this point for the sake of discussion or because you actually play this way? Back in middle school we tried the roll for everything method, including to read a newspaper. Somebody botched their check to use a lighter. I can't remember if we decided the damage was too pitiful to be worth noting down or if they lit the lighter the next turn. Either way we decided playing like that was a waste of time and never suggested trying it again. If you do play like this (rolling for every single interaction), where do you draw the line? I don't think you were the one who brought up 20 balance checks per step taken, but you pointed out that biologists or physicists agrees that that happens. I assume you don't suggest rolling all those dice.

valadil
2010-05-18, 10:41 AM
I can well see how you could fail at ordering pizza. Maybe you're so incoherent that the pizzeria thinks you're making a prank call and hang up or they don't know what you want and give you the wrong toppings.


But to be so incoherent as that requires far more than a single failed check. The chance of getting a natural 1 is too high. I mean, when rolling this either the DC is so low that you can't fail, so there's no point in rolling, or you have at least a 5% chance of failing. I don't think anybody (at least anybody that gets played in D&D, maybe small children or mentally handicapped folks would have some trouble) has anything close to a 5% chance of failing at pizza. Maybe a 1% chance. Either you round down to no roll at all, or you compound a series of rolls into it. ie You forget to say hello, but don't botch your int check so you remember the pepperoni. At that point it's more die rolling than it's worth.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-18, 10:42 AM
no, but like 3 others did.

My bad! My reading glasses are foggy.

Either way, all the fighter has to do is flash some gold around if all else fails and he can still get what he wants in town. Gold from an ugly brute is still gold... Well, maybe if their charisma score's REALLY below average...

Escheton
2010-05-18, 10:46 AM
no, I don't play like that. I can't imagine anyone that does.
Unless you really really want to use your computer generated die rolls. And roll bunches.

Placating customers isn't really natural behaviour. You are supressing the normal check result so to speak for the sake of getting the encounter over with and cashing in. Not every person or company that deals with custumers does so. Your pizza delivery guy might be chaotic enough to not adhere to this basic principle and just react as the intolerent bastard he is. Drawing an extreme. But the point is made.

also:

yeah, people hate him on sight.
He is also rich from adventuring.
Strange how those things interact.

so that point was already made, sorta
man, I post too much.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 10:57 AM
Either way, all the fighter has to do is flash some gold around if all else fails and then the gold will be gone too.It's a bad idea to go flashing your wealth with no ranks in Sense Motive or Spot.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-18, 11:06 AM
It's a bad idea to go flashing your wealth with no ranks in Sense Motive or Spot.

True, but if you find out someone's been lying to you, it gives you more opportunity to interact with them later... with your fists. Also, 10 GP is a HUGE amount to an average commoner, so it won't be too costly overall even if you get duped. An average pick pocket won't have an overly high SoH bonus, so it's always possible you can catch them. Just not 100% of the time like a skill monkey would.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 11:11 AM
An average pick pocket won't have an overly high SoH bonus, so it's always possible you can catch them.This is something you don't want to fail at. Even once.

[Edit]: Spot & Listen should be class skills for everyone.

True, but if you find out someone's been lying to you, it gives you more opportunity to interact with them later... with your fists.
The party: Okay, let's go kill the dragon.
Fighter: But what about my bridge?
The rest: Your what?
Fighter: My bridge. There was this fella who really needed some money to get his wife cure, so I offered to buy his bridge. So, now I own that bridge. *points over yonder*
The rest: *collective facepalm*
Fighter: Wait, are you thinking I got fooled!?
The party: Yes, now let's go to kill the dragon.
Fighter: Nooooo! I must interact with the peasant… WITH MY FISTS! :smallfurious:

Two sessions later…

The party: Can we finally go to kill the dragon now?

Quincunx
2010-05-18, 11:11 AM
I'd model the continual failure to order pizza automatically* as a flaw, requiring you to roll and risk the 5% failure when placing the order--and if I had to bestow a flaw to model it, then the risk of failure probably didn't already exist within the game.

*When accent A meets accent B, they don't necessarily meet at the same address even when speaking the same syllables. I'd have to take the phone away from A and give them directions in his stead, or our pizzas ended up halfway across town, every time.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-18, 11:25 AM
Fighters are hardly alone in their lack of social skills. In fact, apart from the social-based characters, MOST characters will not have diplomacy, gather information etc, even if it's on their class list, unless they are particulaly focused on it. Wizards don't have good charisma, either, and unless Mr Wizard plans on casting Charm Person every time he does anything in a town, the same logic applies. Ditto most psionic characters. And the Swordsage. And ranger and monk and often cleric, because clerics tend not to need Int and Diplomacy comes quite low on the list. And commoners. Last time I checked, the world did not collapse because adventurers are the only ones able to make social skill checks.

(Heck, I've played in parties without ANY social character classes at all, and the "face" was the one guy who happened to have 12 charisma.)

If you (this being the metaphorical, generic, you) are going to say, the fighter can't do anything because he has to make skill checks to do anything ever and that he will fail those checks, then you are also by extension making it so that no character can do anything unless they have a spell or are specialised in that particular area.

Not to mention, what's wrong with trying and failing? Doesn't that lead to some potential roleplaying all itself? Or A Humerous Misunderstanding? (Or a fight?) Or are you seriously suggesting that every failed attempt should have a character screwed over by the DM? And/or that every NPC you encounter is an Expert with Bluff and Sense Motive (etc.)? 'Cos if so, that's just being a complete jerk on the part of the DM.

(Or mentioning that D&D's social skill rules are so poorly and ineptly designed they are considerably less than a joke in the first place; diplomacy in particular.)



I hope if the fighter has to roll to order pizza (metaphorically), the wizard is having to roll a fumble check for every spell he casts, then. Because if you're going to argue the fighter have a substantial chance to fail to talk to people , you had certainly better make sure the wizard is not failing his attempts to break the natural laws of the universe. (That was something Rolemaster did right, at least.)



I can't believe there's actually a discussion going on about not letting people do any roleplaying in an actual roleplaying game because they haven't chosen the "right" class. *shakes head*

Greenish
2010-05-18, 11:35 AM
And the Swordsage.Swordsages have Sense Motive as a class skill, and can actually benefit from improving it and having high wisdom.

Crusaders and warblades have Diplomacy.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-18, 11:53 AM
This is something you don't want to fail at. Even once.

[Edit]: Spot & Listen should be class skills for everyone.

Yes, yes they should.



The party: Okay, let's go kill the dragon.
Fighter: But what about my bridge?
The rest: Your what?
Fighter: My bridge. There was this fella who really needed some money to get his wife cure, so I offered to buy his bridge. So, now I own that bridge. *points over yonder*
The rest: *collective facepalm*
Fighter: Wait, are you thinking I got fooled!?
The party: Yes, now let's go to kill the dragon.
Fighter: Nooooo! I must interact with the peasant… WITH MY FISTS! :smallfurious:

Two sessions later…

The party: Can we finally go to kill the dragon now?

Well, the whole point of the thread is finding stuff the fighter can do on the side, so I doubt he'll be holding up the group (since I assumed it would be dealt with in the same time it took the rest of the party to do their stuff in town). Also, the fighter would have to either be paladin-esque, or magically compelled to do what you suggested.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-18, 11:56 AM
Swordsages have Sense Motive as a class skill, and can actually benefit from improving it and having high wisdom.

And? So they can tell when people dislike them; which if we believe what appears to be being is said, will be all the time. Since they don't have a pressing urge to have high Charisma and don't have Diplomacy (or Gather Information, or Bluff etc.)

Wizards don't have Sense Motive either. (And that's not quite so easy to replicate via spell, since Zone of Truth is not a wizard spell.) Nor do Crusaders or Warblades.

So either they are all almost as stuck as the fighter or the fighter's not as stuck as is implied. Nor should they be.

Gnaeus
2010-05-18, 12:27 PM
And? So they can tell when people dislike them; which if we believe what appears to be being is said, will be all the time. Since they don't have a pressing urge to have high Charisma and don't have Diplomacy (or Gather Information, or Bluff etc.)

They can tell if people are trying to cheat them. They can wait until the person who was lying to them departs and sneak after them, gathering information the old fashioned way.


Wizards don't have Sense Motive either. (And that's not quite so easy to replicate via spell, since Zone of Truth is not a wizard spell.) Nor do Crusaders or Warblades.

Hmm. How could a wizard do this?

Silent, Stilled Charm Person/Monster. Ask your new friend what you want to know.
Detect Thoughts, then enter bar. Ask relevant question.
Eagles Splendor, Owls Wisdom. Now go ask questions.
Suggestion. I suggest you answer all my questions truthfully.
Scrying, Locate Object, Locate Creature. Now you know where IT/HE is.
(Lesser/greater) Planar Binding. Bind a creature with divination SLAs to help you answer questions, or a charismatic creature to ask the questions for you.
Dominate Person/monster, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, Vision, (Limited) Wish, Discern Location, Gate.

Those are just the obvious ones. There are lots more, if you want to use a little creativity.
And any other non core spells, or core spells accessed from other lists.

So no, if the wizard cares about this problem, he can solve it.

Caphi
2010-05-18, 12:28 PM
I think this entire thread is a misunderstanding.

Point 1: A fighter can do "things" in a noncombat setting. He can do things that do not require skills, or do so trivially enough that his skills are moot. These are things any character can do, but depending on the nature of the player and the character, and the skill of the GM setting up interesting events, they can also be engaging for any player, even the fighter.

This is a given. The misunderstanding, I think, happens here.

Point 2: Because of his lack of skills, the fighter can't do meaningful things. If the party needs to investigate a location, he can't help. If they need to hunt for someone, he can't help. If they need to gather information, he can't help. Whatever else he is doing, he may be having a lot of fun and the GM may be spinning an excellent B-plot for him, but chances are good he isn't doing as much to further the group's cause.

(Which means that if the group doesn't have a cause and is just in for a night of RP-heavy revelry at the tavern, the fighter's doing fine. He only has an issue if the town is there for something gameplay-related.)

I think that the topic is, or was at the beginning, about point 1, and everyone is arguing about point 2.

So yeah.

Emmerask
2010-05-18, 12:28 PM
And? So they can tell when people dislike them;

Dislike them and want to hide that fact would be more accurate, if said feelings are not hidden then no need for a roll at all ^^

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-18, 12:39 PM
I think this entire thread is a misunderstanding.

Point 1: A fighter can do "things" in a noncombat setting. He can do things that do not require skills, or do so trivially enough that his skills are moot. These are things any character can do, but depending on the nature of the player and the character, and the skill of the GM setting up interesting events, they can also be engaging for any player, even the fighter.

This is a given. The misunderstanding, I think, happens here.

Point 2: Because of his lack of skills, the fighter can't do meaningful things. If the party needs to investigate a location, he can't help. If they need to hunt for someone, he can't help. If they need to gather information, he can't help. Whatever else he is doing, he may be having a lot of fun and the GM may be spinning an excellent B-plot for him, but chances are good he isn't doing as much to further the group's cause.

(Which means that if the group doesn't have a cause and is just in for a night of RP-heavy revelry at the tavern, the fighter's doing fine. He only has an issue if the town is there for something gameplay-related.)

I think that the topic is, or was at the beginning, about point 1, and everyone is arguing about point 2.

So yeah.

Thank you, that was kinda the point I was trying to make; with the addition that the fighter isn't the only one who might struggle with point 2.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-18, 12:45 PM
I think this entire thread is a misunderstanding.

Point 1: A fighter can do "things" in a noncombat setting. He can do things that do not require skills, or do so trivially enough that his skills are moot. These are things any character can do, but depending on the nature of the player and the character, and the skill of the GM setting up interesting events, they can also be engaging for any player, even the fighter.

This is a given. The misunderstanding, I think, happens here.

Point 2: Because of his lack of skills, the fighter can't do meaningful things. If the party needs to investigate a location, he can't help. If they need to hunt for someone, he can't help. If they need to gather information, he can't help. Whatever else he is doing, he may be having a lot of fun and the GM may be spinning an excellent B-plot for him, but chances are good he isn't doing as much to further the group's cause.

(Which means that if the group doesn't have a cause and is just in for a night of RP-heavy revelry at the tavern, the fighter's doing fine. He only has an issue if the town is there for something gameplay-related.)

I think that the topic is, or was at the beginning, about point 1, and everyone is arguing about point 2.

So yeah.

That seems like a pretty accurate summation, actually.

valadil
2010-05-18, 12:48 PM
I think this entire thread is a misunderstanding.

Point 2: Because of his lack of skills, the fighter can't do meaningful things.

TY for the clarification, but I still say the fighter can do meaningful things, it just becomes a lot harder for him. To deal with this, I'm all for throwing circumstantial bonuses towards a character who earns them.

Maybe the fighter tries to gather info on the new thieves guild, but fails. He knows they'll be on to him if he continues asking around. He also knows they're probably good enough at what they do that won't just happen to catch a thief in the act. Instead of waiting around and hoping to get lucky he buys a new coin purse, fills it with rocks, and ties it to his belt. Then he walks around wherever the other crimes happened. When a thief does try to steal that pouch, the fighter's getting a huge bonus (probably at least +8, but it would depend on the level) to see it happen. The pouch is on him and he's ready for it. Plus he put in the effort and earned the bonus. If he catches the guy he can turn him in or beat the info out of him. Low gather info skill solved.

Yes this depends on GM fiat for circumstantial bonuses. This is why I use circumstantial bonuses as a GM. It lets creative players solve problems when their character sheet isn't enough by itself.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-18, 01:01 PM
And also, the DM should generally balance the difficulty of any one character's subquests (so to speak) to approximately that character's level of ability, unless he has a good reason not to. Versimilitude is potentially a good reason. A plot hook is potentially a good reason. "You choose to be a fighter/monk/blaster wizard etc, you loser" is not a good reason.

I think part of the problem is that it seemed as though some people were advocating that because of the fighter's (not inconsiderable) limitations, the fighter's player should essentially "shut up until combat starts", which is hardly fair.

Volos
2010-05-18, 01:24 PM
Roleplaying in town in a great opportunity to develop your character. If you're a fighter, then find some lady (or lord if you rather) to impress with your heroic exploits. If you are generous, then find the local temple or orphanage and give them your spare silver or copper. Remember, an average worker makes 1sp per day, and adventurers have bucket loads of gold lying around. Not only can you spare the silver and copper coinage, but you may end up making a powerful ally in either the local religious order or the underground. (Many homeless people are thieves... albeit unskilled ones) And if you happen to have a more evil streak, you can take out your frustrations on random commoners or barmaids or anyone else foolish enough to bother you when your temple runs foul. There is plenty to do in a city or town.

Math_Mage
2010-05-18, 07:03 PM
Point 2: Because of his lack of skills, the fighter can't do meaningful mechanically difficult things.

Fixed that for you. I think there's lots of fun, interesting, and meaningful things a fighter can do in town. It's not anything any other class couldn't do, and better, but that's not the point. I agree with your overall analysis, though.

Dairun Cates
2010-05-18, 07:40 PM
I honestly don't know what to say about most of this topic. Some of the assumptions here are just kind of silly.

If a fighter's cripplingly bad skill checks insinuate that a fighter is incapable of anything out of combat, are we to assume that a level 1-2 peasant at the bar is incapable of even speaking with anyone in the bar?

Even though he's lived in the town his whole life, the wizard somehow knows more about the town he just entered because of an intelligence score higher than the peasant's check? Mechanically, this would mean that the Wizard would know more about the location of the tavern that the farmer visits every day. Why do we need skill checks for this? It's a foregone conclusion.

To assume that not having skill checks should mean a character is literally incompetent is a fallacy born in the assumption that D&D has enough mechanics to PERFECTLY mimic real life.

Even if we were to go by a purely mechanical sense, most people won't have skill in sense motive and bluff since they're NPCs. So, the assumed AVERAGE of these checks should be a -1 untrained (since a 9 is the average for a stat). The fighter with his -1 to -2 modifier should be able to tell a believable lie or see through another average person's lie about half the time.

Honestly though, not everything needs checks. If you assume a check for EVERYTHING, then the game gets bogged down. Rolling mechanics cannot solve everything. A good GM knows when the rules are not working to make an enjoyable experience.

Also, I'd like to point out that:


Hmm. How could a wizard do this?

Silent, Stilled Charm Person/Monster. Ask your new friend what you want to know.
Detect Thoughts, then enter bar. Ask relevant question.
Eagles Splendor, Owls Wisdom. Now go ask questions.
Suggestion. I suggest you answer all my questions truthfully.
Scrying, Locate Object, Locate Creature. Now you know where IT/HE is.
(Lesser/greater) Planar Binding. Bind a creature with divination SLAs to help you answer questions, or a charismatic creature to ask the questions for you.
Dominate Person/monster, Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore, Vision, (Limited) Wish, Discern Location, Gate.

Those are just the obvious ones. There are lots more, if you want to use a little creativity.
And any other non core spells, or core spells accessed from other lists.

So no, if the wizard cares about this problem, he can solve it.

Half of these solutions will get you arrested by the town guard, are wholly impractical as they're high level spells and will probably mean narcoleptic mage syndrome for the party, or catch the attention of people you don't want to anger. Honestly, someone catches you using suggestion on other people, most people will start avoiding you like the plague. That'll do more damage than any botched diplomacy check will. And believe me, rely on this too much, and you will get caught no matter how much you cover it up. Even if just because everyone that talks to you starts spreading rumors.

I actually had a player constantly dominate NPCs to do things he needed, and then was shocked that he had gained a bad reputation in that town. To be honest, if we're being realistic, your DM's being nice and is fiating basic logic for your wizard if he IS letting you get away with that kind of approach with no consequences.