[3.5] mounted Halfling Tank ...

[Torvon]

Hossa, I need some advice on my idea.

I want to play a rather indestructible small tank. Focus should be on AC and saves, and if possible on disabling enemies so that my friends can bring them down (does that work with the Knight's Code of Honor?).

Now, I think this would work better with mounts. First of all, it's hilarious, second, you can bring medium mounts into dungeons, and third: mobility.

Stats:
I could dump Strength, since it will suck anyway (being Halfling or Gnome). I will be bad on Trips & Disarms & Grapples, being small. So maybe I shouldn't go that route?
Max DEX for armor + weapon finesse?
Some CON for tanking.
High Charisma? I could go for intimidate + never outnumbered + imperious command, I guess? Imagine that small dude :) ... do small races get -4 on intimidate? That would be sad.
Dump WIS + INT? I might need combat expertise for AC. What do you think?

Classes:
I found the Knight. Sounds like a pretty funny class to play.
1 level dip into Marshal when I have high Charisma?
1 level dip into Barbarian for Rage + Movement? I might not go for heavy armor anyway, 15 ft. movement sucks, and I can't use my high dex bonus with heavy armor. Opinions?
Paladin? I don't know much about the class. I think you need a bit of wisdom, which I basically HAVE to dump. From a roleplaying perspective, I can imagine him very well going for paladin later in the game. Would love some recommendations on this.
1 level dip into Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse?

PrC:
Halfling Outrider sounds fun. Extreme fun, actually! Need mounted archery though, which really really doesn't fit with the Knight - or does it? What do you think?
Any other suggestions?

Fighting style:
This is what I'm not sure about. I can't spirited charge everything. And with my STR/Size, most of the "normal" tank stuff (like trip + range + AoO) doesn't work I guess.
Also, high dex + low str sounds fun in theory, but I can only fight with rapiers etc. then. Lance, Guisarme, and all the other fun stuff is out of the picture, and I can't boost CHA STR DEX CON :/
Help!

Mount:
How do I get a mount? :p

Also, if you have ideas regarding gear, flavour, equipment, skill tricks, feats, etc - let me know!

I imagine that little dude to be extremely ... loud. Carrying his nose pretty high. Drinking a lot. Acting very self secure :)

Thanks :)
ta-at
Torvon

[Gnaeus]

What books are available? Some crusader or warblade would definitely help.

[Torvon]

EDIT:
TOB is NOT allowed. No discussion about this, please.
You may still give suggestions, I might convince my group. But please no builds that completely base upon TOB, taht won't help me.

And we don't play with XP penalties when multiclassing, but we prefer keeping it to 2 or max. 3 classe (so no 15 classes in 20 levels like most builds you see on the internet :) )

ta-ta
T.

[aivanther]

No TOB this time, I really don't want to base every character on that completely OP rulebook.


You really really shouldn't have said that...now you're going to get 100 posts arguing with you about TOB

Extra movement shouldn't matter, since your mount will be the one doing all the moving, so if you're not getting barbarian for rage + spirit lion totem, don't.

Knight fits the tank role perfectly. You also get your mounted combat feat, and can get ride by attack or spirited charge for free, which can work nicely.

Halfling outrider is fun, though it's not really very high on the crunch. Yes, mounted archery will probably be a dump feat for it to.

Honestly, your build isn't about smashing thing, as it seems your combat style is tank: keep the enemies hitting at you so the glass cannon and wizard can end it all. The spirit charges you can get in would work great, but more than anything it seems you really want to be the focus of attention and absorb blows/waste enemy standard/full actions on you while others do most of the damage.

[Torvon]

thanks for the TOB tip, I edited it out.

And yes, I won't do much damage. But i'm not sure how I would achieve that enemies don't simply ignore me. I don't do much damage, and my AoO really don't hurt at all - and I don't have much range.

So, how can I be a pain in the ass? THings like Standstill simply suck when you don't have reach. Maybe I need to go for a guisarme?

[aivanther]

Well, a knight actually can force things to attack it. That always helps. Mount should be a riding dog trained for war, which gets free trip attacks on successful hit like a wolf does.

Some of knight's other abilities help you with the 'tank' aspect of keeping people occupied: Bulwark of defense making terrain difficult, Shield ally allowing you to take damage for them.

If you can up your attack stuff enough, tripping with a guisarme or spike chain may be worth while even with the size penalties.

edit: You may want to look at Cavalier if you want to supplement some damage and get some more perks for your mount beyond halfling outrider.

Also, try to get mage bred (eberron campaign setting) or warbeast (MM2) template to your mount to give it a little more oomph.

[crazedloon]

my suggestion for a build would be

knight 6/ beastmaster 1/halfling outrider 10

knight provides you with
some nice bonus feats
a knights challenge : the DC is low however you will still effect mooks who will spend the combat attempting to catch you while you dash around the battlefield.
some area control for the area you threaten
and you can prevent some damage to your mount (who will always be adjacent to you

beastmaster provides you with a special mount for the cost of 1 feat

halfling outrider is fantastic as it allows you to dash about the field attacking from farther away with ranged attacks and to make quick dashing attacks where you attack mid move and end your move out of reach.

/////////////

if you really want to upset your DM substitute a paladin for the knight levels. This gives you a special mount, which with the devote tracker feat your mount becomes both a mount and animal companion. Than halfling outrider will advance both of these abilities making your mount a true monster.

[Torvon]

a knights challenge : the DC is low however you will still effect mooks who will spend the combat attempting to catch you while you dash around the battlefield.
I read the Knights Challenge 2 times now and can't find any DC mentioned to resist it. The AOE challenge has will DC 10+1/2level+CHA, but the single taunt does not. But you can only taunt monsters who have CR-2, and that totally sucks, I guess? So I can basically never taunt bosses, and only low level mobs who don't pose much of a threat anyway?


prevent some damage to your mount (who will always be adjacent to you
Why will the mount be adjacent to me? Thought I'll sit on it. Or do you mean "at least adjacent"? Thanks.


beastmaster provides you with a special mount for the cost of 1 feat
Interesting. Read the whole day, noone mentioned this PrC so far. What special feat do you mean? Don't really understand yet what this class brings to the build


halfling outrider is fantastic as it allows you to dash about the field attacking from farther away with ranged attacks and to make quick dashing attacks where you attack mid move and end your move out of reach.
Great. I read many people advising against it, because it's not really good, they say. But i like the flavour a lot, and even if it doesn't mean a lot damage, it sounds like a lot of interrupting and being able to take quite a bit of damage (high AC).
Not sure if I want to go ranged combat. I was looking through all small races today. Basically, the character doesn't work with a low STR. I wanted to max DEX CON and CHA, dump WIS, put 13 points into INT for combat expertise, and keep STR ~10. But then I just suck in melee, I can't really trip, Weapon Finesse doesn't help wearing lances or other decent weapons for charging. Gah, Don't know what to do :/

I'd LOVE to drop STR. But I don't know how this build could work then. I'd very much appreciate help here. THanks.

/////////////


if you really want to upset your DM substitute a paladin for the knight levels. This gives you a special mount, which with the devote tracker feat your mount becomes both a mount and animal companion. Than halfling outrider will advance both of these abilities making your mount a true monster.
Sounds funny. Then again, I don't know what to do with my stats. Paladins DO need WIS, right? That's the ONLY dump stat that character has :'(.

Maybe you have suggestions for a stat array if I go for paladin/beastmaster1/halfling outrider?

I don't know much about paladin mechanics, so I'd appreciate help here.

ta-ta and thanks
Torvon

PS.: what do you think about 1 level Marshal for CHA to trip attempts? That would pretty much even out the small race malus.

[crazedloon]

I read the Knights Challenge 2 times now and can't find any DC mentioned to resist it. The AOE challenge has will DC 10+1/2level+CHA, but the single taunt does not. But you can only taunt monsters who have CR-2, and that totally sucks, I guess? So I can basically never taunt bosses, and only low level mobs who don't pose much of a threat anyway?
you are missing the important wording of "have CR equal to or greaterthan your level -2..."

And for this build test of mettle is the best option as it allows you to effect a large group of people all at once. When you have effected the large group of people they will run after you attempting to attack you. Your mount should be faster than them so provided your team does not place themselves in a manner that threatens your opponents, your opponent will spend the battle chasing you (and never catching up). This is a common video game tactic called kiting because while they chase you, you can shoot back at them with ranged weapons all day killing them one by one. Your team can "peel" one off of the mass following you by threatening them (thus giving them an option besides running after you) and this way you control a lot of the combat by which guys follow you and which do not.


Why will the mount be adjacent to me? Thought I'll sit on it. Or do you mean "at least adjacent"? Thanks.
as far as the rules are conerned the mount would be adjacent because you can not occupy the same space.



Interesting. Read the whole day, noone mentioned this PrC so far. What special feat do you mean? Don't really understand yet what this class brings to the build
it is a little bit of an exaggerating but the only prereques for Beastmaster is skill focus handle animal (a rather useless feat thus the 1 feat required) and 8 ranks in handle animal (a class skill for you) and 4 in survival (a cross class but its a low enough number you will have it) what you get for this is:

-Full BaB, which is good because you are a melee build
-good fort, reflex which are nice saves as these are the saves most damage spells target
-an animal companion with your equivalent druid level being equal to your beastmaster level +3 (so only 3 levels behind a normal druid)

you only need 1 level because you are taking it to gain the animal companion as you will be advancing its abilities with Halfling outrider.


Great. I read many people advising against it, because it's not really good, they say. But i like the flavour a lot, and even if it doesn't mean a lot damage, it sounds like a lot of interrupting and being able to take quite a bit of damage (high AC).
Not sure if I want to go ranged combat. I was looking through all small races today. Basically, the character doesn't work with a low STR. I wanted to max DEX CON and CHA, dump WIS, put 13 points into INT for combat expertise, and keep STR ~10. But then I just suck in melee, I can't really trip, Weapon Finesse doesn't help wearing lances or other decent weapons for charging. Gah, Don't know what to do :/

having a low strength will only effect 2 things

-to hit
-damage

with a 10 strength vs 18 (for example) you loose out on 6 damage on a normal attack an 12 on a lance charge. A lot however it is not build breaking as your main damage will come from feats such as power attack.

to hit can be helped with buffs, and better weapons so your build is not too strength centric (it helps but it does not break a fighter to not have high str)

as for ranged combat as a halflings (which you will be because you want to be a halfling outrider) are great with a few thrown weapons as well as slings. Each have some nice option like boomerang daze from races of eberron allows you to stun an opponent on hit (dc = damage dealt) allows you to control the field even more by simply stunning targets while others follow you (due to challenge) and this can all be done from a fleeing mounts back. With ranged combat you need to find extra damage from other sources (spells, items, or feats) or ways of doing other utilitarian things (spells, items, feats)


Sounds funny. Then again, I don't know what to do with my stats. Paladins DO need WIS, right? That's the ONLY dump stat that character has :'(.

that is fine as paladins only use wisdom for spells (you wont have many just stick to buffs) so all you need is an 11 wisdom and you can cast all the spells you will ever gain.


PS.: what do you think about 1 level Marshal for CHA to trip attempts? That would pretty much even out the small race malus.

this dip helps you very little as far as your actual build goes because it does not advance your special mount and it does not give any riding bonuses. However it does have nice Cha synergy with Paladin and paladins only need 5 levels to get their mount (screwed that up) in the same levels you would take with knight you could grab 1 level of marshal to get this ability.

the really cool combo their is the fact that your aura will effect your mount (it will have int 3 because of paladin) and with a riding dog you can make trip attempts on hit attacks. Do not try and trip yourself (you are small and have a lot of penalties) have your dog do it. If you go paladin/beastmaster/outrider your companion becomes very very strong and is the equivalent of another character so you begin having to make smart feat choices for it. By level 10 in outrider your mount will have an additional 16 hit dice (you will have less hit dice than that :smalltongue:) with these hit dice come extra feats and everything else that is gained with new hitdice so plan him out well.

[Torvon]

Thanks so far.

Will my Knight Challenge be viable at higher levels, if I go only Knight5? WIth buffed CHA of 18 or 20, the test will be DC10+7 or something.


kiting
I can see the big advantage of this tactic. Unfortunately, the last thing I can imagine a KNIGHT doing is kiting enemies, disabling them, while my buddies kill them when they lie knocked prone on the floor.
Somehow, I have to find a more reasonable way to make this build work.


kiting
Beastmaster:
Beastmaster sounds fine. I might convice my DM to give me skill focus: handle animal (instead of diplomacy) with 1 marshal level actually. It would really fit to the character, and since diplomacy isn't even a knight class skill, I might get it through.

Is there a point going 1 level beastmaster when I go 5 levels paladin? I have my mount already then, right?



having a low strength will only effect 2 things

-to hit
-damage

with a 10 strength vs 18 (for example) you loose out on 6 damage on a normal attack an 12 on a lance charge. A lot however it is not build breaking as your main damage will come from feats such as power attack.


With a STR of 10, I cannot take power attack (13+). I cannot take knock-down (15+), which I consider crucial for this build. I cannot wear a medium armor + 2-3 weapons, because I'll be overburdened.


as for ranged combat as a halflings (which you will be because you want to be a halfling outrider) are great with a few thrown weapons as well as slings. Each have some nice option like boomerang daze from races of eberron allows you to stun an opponent on hit (dc = damage dealt) allows you to control the field even more by simply stunning targets while others follow you (due to challenge) and this can all be done from a fleeing mounts back. With ranged combat you need to find extra damage from other sources (spells, items, or feats) or ways of doing other utilitarian things (spells, items, feats)
Very interesting, didn't know about that feat. Sounds funny to play. Then again, no paladin or knight in the world (at least in mine) would fight like that.


that is fine as paladins only use wisdom for spells (you wont have many just stick to buffs) so all you need is an 11 wisdom and you can cast all the spells you will ever gain.
STR at least 16(-2)=14
DEX at least 12(+2)=14
CON at least 14
INT at least 13 (c.expertise, imp.trip)
CHA at least 14
no way I can have a WIS > 8. Any ideas?

Paladin5/beastmaster1/halfling outrider sounds like the way to maximize the mount totally. But the rider will suck. Low to hit, very low damage, ok saves, virtually no spells, and the "specials" the halfling outrider gains are laughable, the thing that rocks about that PrC is that you can stack druid&pally mount classes.

Not happy yet, but very much appreciate your comments. Thanks so far, maybe you have more ideas?

ta-ta
Torvon

PS.: you're right, minor aura art of war (CHA+trip) does also affect the mount, very interesting. I am currently considering trying to go full tripper with my halfling (I know I'll have to specialize to help my size penalties), and get a mount which does a lot of damage to prone enemies.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go Psychic Warrior, you get plenty of feats for stuff like Spirited Charge. Since you want low Str and high Dex you should go TWF, and use a double weapon like a two bladed sword or double scimitar, even a quarterstaff would work. Use Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm) with Spirited Charge to get a full attack of double damage, plus you'll double the augmentation bonus. I'd probably go Gnome and get Dodge and Titan Fighting (RoS), along with Psionic Dodge. You should definitely get Earth Sense and Earth Power and wear sandals made from stone slabs, and try to get a Torc of Power Preservation. Linked Power is also pretty necessary for any Psychic Warrior.

This tends to work best with some kind of Str bonus, maybe get Strength of My Enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) assuming you can use both ends of the double weapon to deliver it. Empathic Transfer, Hostile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) can also be good but augmented to an AoE it will hit your mount.

Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) is an obvious route, especially since you can enchant your double weapon without spending any cash. Make each end +1 Speed asap, and be sure to take Improved Critical before the 7th level of it to get an even better threat range. Maybe dip a level of Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of Strikes.

As for the mount itself, you should probably make it a Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for obvious reasons.

[Greenish]

I want to play a rather indestructible small tank. Focus should be on AC and saves, and if possible on disabling enemies so that my friends can bring them down (does that work with the Knight's Code of Honor?).Tripping and such are within Knight's Code. It doesn't even forbid you from hitting an enemy who is down! (But you can't use lethal damage against helpless enemies, so no Coup de Grâcing for you.)

And yes, while Knight's Code doesn't specifically forbid "kiting", but it's very un-knightly. However, if there are several enemies, nothing stops you from taunting the ones farther away, or moving to fight enemies others than those taunted.


I read the Knights Challenge 2 times now and can't find any DC mentioned to resist it. The AOE challenge has will DC 10+1/2level+CHA, but the single taunt does notThere is no "single taunt". Fighting Challenge only gives you some combat bonuses.