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TheLogman
2010-05-16, 02:14 PM
So, there's been a lot of discussion about the moral code that standard Paladins should be subject to, the Lawful Good code.

But what about Paladins of Freedom? What sort of ethics should they be held to?

Here's what I've come up with:

1. No evil actions (this one is a given). This means no murdering the innocent, no casting evil spells, the basic stuff.

2. No torture, no unjust imprisonment, no usage of fear spells or psychological violence, no imprisonment in harsh conditions, fair treatment of prisoners.

3. No usage of spells that violate the will. This includes suggestion, charm, domination, that sort of thing. Diplomacy and Bluff are okay, but violating the will is right out.

4. Protection of the free will and personal choice as long as the exercise of that will and freedom doesn't endanger or harm others.

I'm also pretty sure that killing the helpless is right out, even if the helpless in question is evil/done a crime.

Does a Paladin of Freedom still respect the concepts of justice and a just court system, or can a Paladin of Freedom go around executing criminals "freely"?

Mongoose87
2010-05-16, 02:16 PM
4. Protection of the free will and personal choice as long as the exercise of that will and freedom doesn't endanger or harm others.


But, if a tyrant is oppressing the people, wouldn't the PoF be obligated to take him down?

TheLogman
2010-05-16, 02:18 PM
Sure, the Tyrant's choice to oppress is violating/harming the ability of the people to make free choices themselves.

And probably harming them too.

That's why the clause on protection of free will includes the requirement that exercise of that will can't come at the cost of the wellbeing or freedom of another.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-16, 02:32 PM
You would be harming the tyrant. Furthermore, the momentary instability caused by the overthrow would endanger civilians.

2xMachina
2010-05-16, 02:41 PM
You're chaotic.

That's free reign to everything. So long you're Good, you're good to go.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-16, 02:52 PM
You're chaotic.

That's free reign to everything. So long you're Good, you're good to go.

Not exactly... but reasonably close.

I'd imagine the same stricture against knowingly working with Evil that an LG Paladin has would apply.

As far as overthrowing an evil tyrant goes... the instability caused by overthrowing the evil government would encourage people to think for themselves... a prime tenant of Chaotic Good.

Remember also that, being Good, helping others is more important than helping yourself.

Starbuck_II
2010-05-16, 04:36 PM
But being Chaotic means helping yourself is most important.

hamishspence
2010-05-16, 04:42 PM
Not in 3rd/3.5 ed.

Maybe in 2nd ed, where Chaotic Good characters are described as "selfish but goodhearted"

But in 3rd ed, altruism, and "making sacrifices to help others" fall under Good, not Law.

Gametime
2010-05-16, 04:51 PM
But being Chaotic means helping yourself is most important.

No, it doesn't. Selfishness and selflessness are more related to the good-evil axis in D&D than to the law-chaos axis.

Chaotic Neutral characters are selfish more because of the neutrality than the chaos - they won't usually actively hurt people, but they see no reason to help them either. Neutral evil characters are a prime example of selfishness, and they aren't chaotic. Hell, Lawful Evil characters can be perfectly selfish - they might want order, but it's usually in the name of acquiring personal power.

Law and Chaos has more to do with restrictions than with selfishness. Chaotic characters don't want to infringe on freedoms, but they'll still help others if they're Good. Robin Hood, say, is a good example of a Chaotic Good character. (Well, at least the pop-cultural version is - the original folk hero, perhaps less so.)

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 05:26 PM
FC2 has a number of explicitly lawful acts (called "obeisant") that could conceivably cause a PoF to Fall if committed habitually. I'll list some of them below (in order of lawfulness):

- Swearing fealty to a leader you know
- Same, but to one you've never met
- Resolving a dispute through due process
- Quietly accepting a legal judgment against you
- Following a rule you consider stupid
- Aiding a superior to your own detriment
- Obeying a leader you don't respect
- Carrying out a lawful execution

herrhauptmann
2010-05-17, 12:38 AM
Perhaps if the paladin of freedom resorts to usual paladin jerkiness.
Telling others (even in the party) what to do or think.
Trying to think for other people or limit their choices because you feel like it (maybe it's necessary, or you just disagree).

That kind of stuff seems like it would jive with the Paladin of Freedom. (A jerk DM could use that to cause a Paladin of Freedom to fall, just because they're a parent and trying to raise their child safely)

Mastikator
2010-05-17, 11:34 AM
The Chaotic Good Paladin is in some ways the same, since he's good. But in others, he's the opposite, since he's chaotic. And since I'm a self-proclaimed understander of CGness I'll give my few rules/guidelines. LG paladins are stoic and principled and have impeccable honor . CG paladins are on the other hand passionate and empathetic, and if they see innocents get hurt they cry (and then kick ass).:smalltongue:

1) Must protect and help innocents, may never harm them, like the regular paladin. CG paladins must be compassionate and feel empathy.

2) may not violate the will of another, ever, by means of mundane brainwashing or magic. Complusions and charms are forbidden.

3) If upholding justice is one of the pillars of the regular paladin, freeing slaves is the equivalent of the CG Paladin.

4) Avoid taking prisoners, when you do, treat them well. But if someone really deserves to die, just kill them.

5) Trials and laws are useless. You can tell right from wrong by looking into your heart, not by looking into a lawbook.
Lying, cheating and stealing are still frowned upon.


-


Like regular paladins sometimes fall for being too lawful stupid and eventually becoming lawful Nazi. CG paladins sometimes fall for being too passionate and end up feeling more hate than love and compassion.

Seffbasilisk
2010-05-17, 11:48 AM
"We will pay you in slaves." "In our homeland, to free a slave, is to condemn him to die."

paddyfool
2010-05-17, 11:58 AM
I prefer Fax Celestis' Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33551), and in particular, the way it allows people to customise their Paladin in a modular fashion to fit a more particular ideology within the range of possibilities for their alignment.

Mastikator
2010-05-17, 12:04 PM
"We will pay you in slaves." "In our homeland, to free a slave, is to condemn him to die."

Save him from his homeland?

Telonius
2010-05-17, 12:07 PM
Here's what I imagine a Paladin of Freedom might think.

Evil always and everywhere seeks to destroy freedom. One of its most insidious tools is to enslave a person to his own desires - desire for pleasure, desire for wealth, desire for safety, desire for power. If a person is enslaved to these illusions, he can never be truly free, even if he lives alone under the stars with no walls to confine him or traditions to scold him. Therefore freedom comes first from the mind. So your maxim should be: first free your mind, then follow your heart.

Our mission is freedom for all. Never punish; only educate. If a person refuses to be set free, pity them, but respect that decision. If a person takes away the freedom of others, educate them. If they refuse to accept the education, they are an enemy of both others and themselves. Their only freedom will lie in death.

"Law" and "fairness" aren't the same thing. Fairness encourages freedom. Laws and traditions can be unfair; or worse yet, capricious - fair in one case, unfair in another. Real justice is never unfair, even if it is arrived at by various means.

EDIT: From that, some rules might emerge.

- Do not be enslaved to your own desires. Desire itself is not a bad thing, but it is not to be substituted for your own will.
- Gain a greater knowledge of yourself.
- Educate others whenever the opportunity presents itself.
- Help others to be free, physically and mentally.
- Fight oppressors wherever you find them.
- Respect the law only when it is just. A fair result matters more than a consistent process.
- Respect the opinions and choices of others, even if you disagree; but do not falter in your fight for freedom.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 12:45 PM
Evil always and everywhere seeks to destroy freedom. One of its most insidious tools is to enslave a person to his own desires - desire for pleasure, desire for wealth, desire for safety, desire for power. If a person is enslaved to these illusions, he can never be truly free, even if he lives alone under the stars with no walls to confine him or traditions to scold him. Therefore freedom comes first from the mind. So your maxim should be: first free your mind, then follow your heart.

Paladin of Freedom = Buddhist?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-17, 02:36 PM
You're chaotic.

That's free reign to everything. So long you're Good, you're good to go.

I'd have to concur. Screw arbitrary codes and hard restrictions. Just keep your alignment.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 02:53 PM
I've always thought Paladins must be really hard to play, even badly, without falling. A misplaced sentence might doom you. All you have to do is stand up for the Lawful/Chaotic view (depending on Paladin type) and you fall, if you've got a harsh DM, or are even just harsh on yourself. I find this really hard to wrap my head around. Which I guess makes me NG XD.

But here's something. Despite what it says about alignments, I've always seen using an Evil means (or at least a dubious one) towards a Good end as more Chaotic than Neutral. I mean sure, Neutral people might do that, but I'm not sure a Neutral character cares so much for Good as for expediency. However, I can see a Chaotic Good character going "screw the rules! I KNOW what's Good, and letting him escape if just wrong!" and then proceeding to stab him after he's found innocent at trial - for the greater good.

urbanpirate
2010-05-17, 03:03 PM
So, there's been a lot of discussion about the moral code that standard Paladins should be subject to, the Lawful Good code.

But what about Paladins of Freedom? What sort of ethics should they be held to?

Here's what I've come up with:

1. No evil actions (this one is a given). This means no murdering the innocent, no casting evil spells, the basic stuff.

2. No torture, no unjust imprisonment, no usage of fear spells or psychological violence, no imprisonment in harsh conditions, fair treatment of prisoners.

3. No usage of spells that violate the will. This includes suggestion, charm, domination, that sort of thing. Diplomacy and Bluff are okay, but violating the will is right out.

4. Protection of the free will and personal choice as long as the exercise of that will and freedom doesn't endanger or harm others.

I'm also pretty sure that killing the helpless is right out, even if the helpless in question is evil/done a crime.

Does a Paladin of Freedom still respect the concepts of justice and a just court system, or can a Paladin of Freedom go around executing criminals "freely"?

I disagree with #2 nevermind unjust imprisonment a paladin of freedom shoud be opposed to all imprisonment. After all who was ever more free when placed in a cage.

Melamoto
2010-05-17, 03:03 PM
I always saw Paladin of Freedom to be just as bad as the regular Paladin, simply because most adventuring parties will suffer with either of them if they are held strictly to their code; and neither is particularly bad if they are given leniency. In fact, by a strict DM Paladins of Freedom should instantly fall as soon as they take levels logically, because their Code of Conduct is incredibly strict and lawful which violates their ideals. So really, I guess my point is that any DM who holds Paladins to strictly obey their code of conduct and makes them fall for any slightly non-paladin-esque act should be bound, gagged, and thrown into the Atlantic Ocean.

In my opinion, on topic, Paladins of Freedom should fall for acts on par with or worse than helping establish a LE government, or a LN government that violates one or more of the paladins other ideals, along with anything evil. Even if a Paladin of Freedom seems a bit oxymoronic in D&D terms.

Also, Ninja'ing the post below me.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-17, 03:04 PM
Isn't following a code in the first place a Lawful act?

Telonius
2010-05-17, 03:36 PM
I disagree with #2 nevermind unjust imprisonment a paladin of freedom shoud be opposed to all imprisonment. After all who was ever more free when placed in a cage.

Prison would only be justified as a corrective measure, never as a punitive one. If a "time out" is what it takes to get the person's head straight, I don't think a Paladin of Freedom would object. They wouldn't object to the existence of schools either, though they'd probably have problems with some teaching methods. Liberal arts curricula for everybody! (The "Liberal" in liberal arts is there because in its original conception, that method of study was supposed to set people free - to liberate their minds).

EDIT: Good point above. I'd say that any code would have to have one item that said something like this:

- Never let anything substitute for your own conscience, including this code. (It's more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules).

Fisticuffs
2010-05-17, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Melamoto
I always saw Paladin of Freedom to be just as bad as the regular Paladin, simply because most adventuring parties will suffer with either of them if they are held strictly to their code; and neither is particularly bad if they are given leniency. In fact, by a strict DM Paladins of Freedom should instantly fall as soon as they take levels logically, because their Code of Conduct is incredibly strict and lawful which violates their ideals. So really, I guess my point is that any DM who holds Paladins to strictly obey their code of conduct and makes them fall for any slightly non-paladin-esque act should be bound, gagged, and thrown into the Atlantic Ocean.

A LG paladin follows a code because it is what is expected from his superior, for whom you learns the code. A CG Paladin follows a code as a strict PERSONAL choice, "created" be the individual paladin. This is why I've always seen their code as much more loosely defined.

Superglucose
2010-05-17, 07:44 PM
Do not follow a law you consider to be unjust.

gibbo88
2010-05-17, 08:02 PM
I don't think there is any reason that a chaotic good Paladin couldn't allow someone to be locked up - if it is for the preservation of freedom of will for other people, even if that freedom is "not to be brutally murdered". Denying one person a freedom for the good of the many is something that should be allowed by the PCoC (geddit?) since otherwise you have no power to protect others apart from killing the one that would otherwise be put in prison.

The point of the alignment restriction is coolish powers at a price. There should be hard decisions and in reality I'm sure any CG Paladin would more then likely have regret over what he is doing - that is the compassion thing that others have mentioned, just because its RIGHT doesn't mean its EASY. Bit I digress.

I think people tend to view the code of conduct as being rock solid and immovable. The Gods, of all things, with their far-seeing view would be able to see certain things as a necessary evil, and not necessarily punish them and if it wasn't needed Atonement wouldn't exist and I like to think that if the God didn't believe you were sorry and wouldn't do the same thing again they wouldn't allow their power to infuse the Paladin again.

NeoVid
2010-05-17, 08:47 PM
As CG is the alignment I've seen most often, I want to mention what ended up being the motto of Chaotic Good in local games:

"It seemed like the right thing to do at the time."

AvatarZero
2010-05-18, 04:00 AM
Do you really want rules and principles for a devoutly Chaotic character? Does that really work?

Jothki
2010-05-18, 04:41 AM
The point of the alignment restriction is coolish powers at a price. There should be hard decisions and in reality I'm sure any CG Paladin would more then likely have regret over what he is doing - that is the compassion thing that others have mentioned, just because its RIGHT doesn't mean its EASY. Bit I digress.

That may very well be the key difference between the two. A LG Paladin is held to a strict structure, but at the same time, he can fall back on that structure whenever he faces a difficult decision, and not have to worry about whether he made the right choice. A CG Paladin does not have that structure, but as a consequence, he has to face the burden of making his own choices, of deciding what is right and wrong for himself.

Escheton
2010-05-19, 01:05 AM
The thing about paladins of freedom is that sometimes they make choices that would normally make them fall, but totally doesnt.

for instance. A filosophically inclined or smart or paranoid PoF might reason that when given the choice between doing right and wrong there is no choice, as one is right and one is wrong, or that he is being manipulated by his goodness or society's view on morality. And choose the non-good path to asert his freedom.

also: saving the damsel in distress is a bad thing as it undermines her sense of self and disempowers her. And PoF are total feminists, even the men.

Yora
2010-05-19, 05:46 AM
I say a good start for a virtous Chaotic Good character would be not to force your views and oppinions on others.
If needed, you use force to prevent others from doing certain things, or force them to do others. But you don't expect them to like it or share your oppinion.

So I'd say decieving someone, even magically, to help you achieve what you think is right, is okay. But forcefully changing a persons mind and denying him the option to think for himself, is not.
This would make charming okay, but would make domination an extreme measure that must only be used as a temporary means in matters of life and death.

Also, forcing people to stop harming others would be completely accaptable. But forcing others to take personal risks to help others would not. If really desperate, a PoF might still intimidate some towns people to join him in a dangerous rescue mission, but I think this would be one thing he would have to seek atonement for.