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View Full Version : Warlocks. Or: Help Out a Newbie.



Fayd
2010-05-16, 09:05 PM
Greetings Playgrounders!

In the fall, I will be in my first 3.5 campaign. I know the rules and such well enough to play competently, thankfully. What I am looking for is advice with a character build, primary purpose: Fun. (I REALLY don't want to overshadow the rest of the party)

So: I want to play a Warlock. I love the class, for reason's I am still trying to figure out. I have already decided on Changeling for my race, which leaves me naturally in the role of party face (Beguiling Influence says hi) I'm looking for things to do, feats to pick up, gear to buy or make, and invocations to learn. I have the following limitations:

I really want a maximum of one crafting feat. I don't want to craft a whole lot.
No Tome of Battle.
I don't mind taking Extra Invokations repeatedly. Admittedly it can be a little boring (I'm taking this feat AGAIN) but it gives a lot of fun tools.
I will be Chaotic Neutral (Fey flavored, obviously) so nothing with [evil] in the description.

Everything else is fair game. I'd like to have a few essences, and a shape or two. Fell Flight is a must, as well as Beguiling Influence.

I found this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Changeling_Warlock_%28DnD_Racial_Substitution_Leve ls%29) while googling for advice, and it is currently under consideration... although I don't know the source (if anyone can help with that, I'd be very thankful.) Is it terribly overpowered?

General advice is also accepted.

Thank you all so much! Have a nice day, ok?

sofawall
2010-05-16, 09:08 PM
Considering that site is made up of the SRD+Homebrew, and that isn't the SRD, I'd imagine it's homebrew.

For the record, DandDWiki is a terrible, terrible site. By and large, the homebrew is poor, the organization is confusing, and the optimized builds, well, aren't.

EDIT: City Appeal, despite the odd name, makes sense and is not a huge power boost to the Warlock, as long as you aren't going Diplomancer with it.

Detect Thoughts is a damn sight more powerful than Detect Magic, and the save is odd. Why 12+Cha instead of the more traditional 10+1/2HD+Cha?

Mutable Anatomy is better than Fiendish Resilience, although that isn't saying much. The text is odd, although the example clarifies intent.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 09:09 PM
True. But... I rather like this particular example, and it seems roughly in line with other Changeling racial substitutions. I think.

Runestar
2010-05-16, 09:11 PM
If you like crafting but don't want to blow too many feats on crafting feats, consider taking 2 lvs of chameleon (prc from races of destiny, but also available for free on the wotc website) after warlock12. It grants a floating feat (which you can change every day), which allows you to pick up the crafting feat of your choice (and change it as and when circumstances dictate).

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b

It does require that you go human and have the able learner feat, so you may want to start planning right from the start.

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 09:12 PM
1) Your first stop for ideas, as always, should be a class handbook - in this case, the Warlock Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0) :smallsmile:

2) Unless I'm missing out on sources, Changelings don't have Warlock racial sub levels. Those, like many items on dandwiki, would therefore be homebrew. (The official Changeling subs in Races of Eberron are Egoist, Wizard and Rogue.)

3) The social part of being a Warlock is easy, so how do you want to handle combat? Melee or ranged?

sofawall
2010-05-16, 09:13 PM
Reposting since my edit was posted under.

City Appeal, despite the odd name, makes sense and is not a huge power boost to the Warlock, as long as you aren't going Diplomancer with it.

Detect Thoughts is a damn sight more powerful than Detect Magic, and the save is odd. Why 12+Cha instead of the more traditional 10+1/2HD+Cha?

Mutable Anatomy is better than Fiendish Resilience, although that isn't saying much. The text is odd, although the example clarifies intent.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 09:18 PM
1) Your first stop for ideas, as always, should be a class handbook - in this case, the Warlock Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0) :smallsmile:

2) Unless I'm missing out on sources, Changelings don't have Warlock racial sub levels. Those, like many items on dandwiki, would therefore be homebrew. (The official Changeling subs in Races of Eberron are Egoist, Wizard and Rogue.)

3) The social part of being a Warlock is easy, so how do you want to handle combat? Melee or ranged?

1. Oooh. Shiny. Handbooks are fun. Perusing...

2. Ah. That'd explain that. Well, I'll let him know that it's homebrew, so I might not get to use it (which is fine.)

3. Ranged. Definitely Ranged.

Thanks for the analysis Sofawall. I don't know why the things are odd, but the homebrew bit is probably it.

demidracolich
2010-05-16, 09:25 PM
If you want to be really far ranged you can use a tactic my friend likes to use which is use eldritch spear and snipe them from all the way across the battlefield.

sofawall
2010-05-16, 09:25 PM
I forgot to give my final assessment!

Flavorful and powerful, but not overly so. I'd take away a Least or Lesser Invocation known as well as Detect Magic to get Detect Thoughts at will, but that's just me playing in a social-focused game right now. The fact that you also have to take a sub-optimal race for Warlocks (No Dex or Cha, for example) makes this something I would likely allow in one of my games, with the small added cost for the second feature.

The Shadowmind
2010-05-16, 09:29 PM
The Chameleon PrC, and Able Learner feat should be allowed for Changelings from the adaptation section, for Eberron settings, but you need to grab that feat at first level. You could also you the bonus feat for extra invocation to swap out a grade below max each day, which gives a lot of utility.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 09:30 PM
Well, the DM just nixed the substitution levels, so nevermind about that.

And are we thinking the right changeling? Near as I know there weren't any stat changes at all. Am I correct? I don't own many (read: any, at the moment) books, (I have a lot of friends who do...) so...

PId6
2010-05-16, 09:31 PM
Detect Thoughts is a damn sight more powerful than Detect Magic, and the save is odd. Why 12+Cha instead of the more traditional 10+1/2HD+Cha?
I'm guessing it's supposed to act as an SLA, which is 10 + spell level + Cha (in this case 12 + Cha since Detect Thoughts is a 2nd level spell). However, since it's a Su ability, it should really be changed to 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha.

sofawall
2010-05-16, 09:34 PM
And are we thinking the right changeling? Near as I know there weren't any stat changes at all. Am I correct? I don't own many (read: any, at the moment) books, (I have a lot of friends who do...) so...

Assuming you are talking to me, we are thinking of the same. I said that Changelings have no bonus to Cha or Dex.


I'm guessing it's supposed to act as an SLA, which is 10 + spell level + Cha (in this case 12 + Cha since Detect Thoughts is a 2nd level spell).

Completely didn't think of that. Wow. Silly sofawall.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 09:38 PM
Assuming you are talking to me, we are thinking of the same. I said that Changelings have no bonus to Cha or Dex.

This was another case of me failing reading comprehension. I, for whatever reason, misinterpreted that Changelings had a penalty to it. And was therefore quite confused. And now I am NOT confused, thank you.

Redrat2k6
2010-05-16, 09:46 PM
Well http://bertball.com/MySRD/srd/classes/warlock2.htm is something I found awhile ago that is a really nice improvement to the warlock class, if you can get it approved. I find the Official Warlock plays like Tiny Tim... crippled.

Also Eldritch Glaive from Dragon Magic is the best Invocation ever. Makes your Eldritch Blast into a Glaive that uses your BAB (with extra attacks) as touch attacks.

Combine that with some Spiked armor and your set if you ever find yourself in melee.

Fell Flight or Flee the Scene is nice in most encounters. And Vitriolic Blast is a must because it is your only weapon against creatures with SR.

JeminiZero
2010-05-16, 09:49 PM
What is your starting level? If its high enough you can consider going 3 Warlock / 1 Sorcerer / X Eldritch Theurge. Use either Precocious Apprentice or some Versatile Spellcaster combo for early qualification of Eldritch Theurge. Also remember to grab Practiced Spellcaster for the Sorcerer.

This adds a bunch of Sorcerer tricks to your Warlock (grab Wings of Cover). While your Sorc spells will be 3 levels behind a normal Sorc, Eldritch Theurge has some class features which let you add your spells to Eldritch Blast which saves on the Action economy.

Going Eldritch Thuerge also lets you qualify for the Face Changer reserve feat level 9, that basically lets you cast Disguise Self at will, and which stacks with your Changeling bonus.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 09:58 PM
Level 1, so... not so much. And I basically already have Disguise Self at will.

I don't know how keen I am on taking a prestige class either. I mean, I'm not opposed, but I don't want to be really complicated either.

EDIT: And homebrew in general isn't looking too hot for approval. So...

The Shadowmind
2010-05-16, 10:05 PM
I'd go with Able Learner as your first level feat, and if you get to that level take chameleon at 7th and 8th level so you can get extra invocation (least) as your bonus feat from that, swapping out whenever you need something else for the day, the continue on the warlock progression.

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 10:06 PM
I don't know how keen I am on taking a prestige class either. I mean, I'm not opposed, but I don't want to be really complicated either.

The thing is, there's no reason to stay in Warlock past 12 (i.e. when you get Imbue Item.) Nothing you get from more warlock levels is better than PrCing out, unless the PrC you choose loses a bunch of CL.

Do you have Races of the Wild? Ruathar is a great PrC for a feylock, first for the flavor, second because it's so easy to qualify for and third because it opens up a ton of other fey-themed PrCs like Sentinel of Bharrai and Swanmay.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 10:23 PM
I am liking the Chameleon 2 thing more and more... Is there any way to make up for the lost Dark Invocation? The most important thing for me is to have as full Invoker progression as possible.

By the way, thanks very much for this help.

tyckspoon
2010-05-16, 10:26 PM
I am liking the Chameleon 2 thing more and more... Is there any way to make up for the lost Dark Invocation? The most important thing for me is to have as full Invoker progression as possible.

By the way, thanks very much for this help.

Honestly? If you're starting at level 1 and you don't know how rapidly the DM likes to advance characters.. I wouldn't worry about Dark Invocations. Plan up to 5ish (you probably won't have made any excessively crippling decisions by then- for example, if you decide you don't want to go for Chameleon, Able Learner is still a pretty useful feat.) At that point, you should have a good enough idea of the group's stability and leveling pace to know whether or not you need to be planning for levels 15+.

Fayd
2010-05-16, 10:31 PM
True. Very good point, hadn't considered that... I have a tendency to overplan, so... Yeah. All good advice. I think I'll do that.

Thanks all!

graeylin
2010-05-16, 11:12 PM
my two cents...

if you are going for the face of the party, and avoiding melee, then don't worry about blast essences, shapes, etc.. get summon swarm or shatter first, and just use your eldritch blast from a distance. Honestly, without point blank shot and precise shot, shooting into melee with your friends around is -4 anyway, so not your forte unless you want to use those feats up.

there are some magic items you can get to fix that, but not likely at first level. So, you have a choice: as a ranged warlock, you probably need that precise shot tree, or else just use summon swarm and shatter all day long, and forget about blasting once your party is in melee.

craft wondrous item is the only craft feat you will need. with the rules in the MIC, what can't you make as a wondrous item? like that rod of magic spelling? make a circlet instead.... ring of invisibility? make boots instead.

eldritch glaive is a must if you are going to be a melee lock... but if you aren't interested in it, then don't take it. fell flight at 6th level is a must for just awesome coolness, and cause it keeps you away from melee. get flyby attack or hover once you have the flight invocation.

the warlock handbook is pretty good, if a bit chaotic to read. try reading it a couple times, and you will get some good ideas. just remember, at first level, stay out of combat... stand back and shoot or summon or shatter or beguile, just don't duke it out.

Optimystik
2010-05-16, 11:28 PM
my two cents...

if you are going for the face of the party, and avoiding melee, then don't worry about blast essences, shapes, etc.. get summon swarm or shatter first, and just use your eldritch blast from a distance. Honestly, without point blank shot and precise shot, shooting into melee with your friends around is -4 anyway, so not your forte unless you want to use those feats up.

All your shots are touch attacks though, so -4 isn't nearly as big a hurdle as it seems.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-17, 01:31 AM
Warlocks should get Knowledge Devotion... the Otherworldly Whispers (Complete Mage) gives you +6 to three major Knowledges and is a good boost to this feat.

Rainbownaga
2010-05-17, 01:55 AM
Summon swarm is basically an I-win button for level 1 warlocks: it deals as much damage as your eldritch blast with no chance of missing to 4 adjacent squares and has a chance to nauseate and a secondary effect (either strength damage or bleeding; disease is too slow to be useful).

Shatter is just fun- not as powerful, but it's a second level spell usable at will with an additional power boost.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-17, 01:59 AM
Consider Darkness.

With Drow of the Underdark, you gain access to the feat: Blend into Shadows.

This lets you make a hide check, as a swift action, while being observed. Cost? You have to expend a use of a darkness SLA (it's at will, lol), and you have to be within 10 feet of magical darkness (that you create at will).

In other words? Hide in Plain Sight as early as level 1.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 02:08 AM
I don't own many (read: any, at the moment) books, (I have a lot of friends who do...) so...Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php).

For invocations, I suggest you pick up Baleful Utterance, Shatter at will is pretty handy.

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 02:19 AM
Consider Darkness.

With Drow of the Underdark, you gain access to the feat: Blend into Shadows.

This lets you make a hide check, as a swift action, while being observed. Cost? You have to expend a use of a darkness SLA (it's at will, lol), and you have to be within 10 feet of magical darkness (that you create at will).

In other words? Hide in Plain Sight as early as level 1.

I'll second this suggestion simply because the Darkness invocation is a natural lead-in to the interesting Child of Night PrC (Tome of Magic.)

hewhosaysfish
2010-05-17, 07:01 AM
For invocations, I suggest you pick up Baleful Utterance, Shatter at will is pretty handy.


I will be Chaotic Neutral (Fey flavored, obviously) so nothing with [evil] in the description.


Just a word of warning: the text of Baleful Utterance states that it uses a single syllable of the Dark Speech and give a page reference in the BoVD. Dark Speech is (as the name suggests) the Eeeevil Language Of Eeeevil. How Baleful Utterance interacts with alignment will depend how you DM reads the related section in the BoVD.

Eldariel
2010-05-17, 07:10 AM
Just a word of warning: the text of Baleful Utterance states that it uses a single syllable of the Dark Speech and give a page reference in the BoVD. Dark Speech is (as the name suggests) the Eeeevil Language Of Eeeevil. How Baleful Utterance interacts with alignment will depend how you DM reads the related section in the BoVD.

But it's simple enough to reflavor. It does not have [Evil]-tag, so yeah, just refluff it as natural forces crushing an artefact or returning things to their natural guise or whatever; fey aren't too fond of progress anyways and Baleful Utterance is quite convenient for blowing progress up.

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 07:52 AM
Just a word of warning: the text of Baleful Utterance states that it uses a single syllable of the Dark Speech and give a page reference in the BoVD. Dark Speech is (as the name suggests) the Eeeevil Language Of Eeeevil. How Baleful Utterance interacts with alignment will depend how you DM reads the related section in the BoVD.

CustServ says to ignore the fluff - all invocations are unaligned.
(Curiously, they also say to ignore the verbal component.)

Fayd
2010-05-17, 01:22 PM
I'll second this suggestion simply because the Darkness invocation is a natural lead-in to the interesting Child of Night PrC (Tome of Magic.)

I agree, it is interesting. Not exactly what I'm looking for, but it is interesting.

I think Baleful Utterance is just too handy to not have, when all's said and done. And the first level feat is going to be Able Learner if the DM allows it (and it makes sense, Changeling is right in the middle of Human and Doppelganger, the two races that DO qualify)

Of course, there are also a fair few fun changeling feats too... Hrm. This could be interesting.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-17, 01:38 PM
My suggestion:

First level, go Rogue with Changeling Substitution level to Take 10 on all social skills, then Able Learner to keep them capped. Your party will never face a faux pas. Ever. No, not even then.

From there, then go into Warlock.

Now, you're wanting more of a 'sniper lock' build. This speaks several things to me, but primarily: your damage output sucks without... tricks.

Now, the neatest trick is something you are not wanting: Hellfire Warlock, which requires Evil alignment. It adds tons of damage on you.

Another idea is Rogue levels for more sneak attack, combined with Walk Unseen or Fell Flight as your Lesser Invocations.

If you can get it passed through your GM that being able to use Invocations of 3rd level or higher to qualify for PrC's that require the ability to cast 3rd level spells, then you may be able to get into Arcane Trickster, which would be a very solid rogue/warlock build.

However, if you have a RAW GM, that won't fly. At all.

There's a neck-slot magic item that can increase your EB by up to +2d6. This will be important.

Your game play is: hit hard, hit at a distance, don't stop. You can snipe all day long, stay invis and flying at all times, and they will have troubles even finding you...

Fayd
2010-05-17, 01:51 PM
My suggestion:

First level, go Rogue with Changeling Substitution level to Take 10 on all social skills, then Able Learner to keep them capped. Your party will never face a faux pas. Ever. No, not even then.

From there, then go into Warlock.

There's a neck-slot magic item that can increase your EB by up to +2d6. This will be important.

Your game play is: hit hard, hit at a distance, don't stop. You can snipe all day long, stay invis and flying at all times, and they will have troubles even finding you...

This stuff. Sold. Thank you VERY much. This cuts out my skill point starvation, gets me WAY good at social things, and... yeah. Excellent. Thank you. In addition to this and the Chameleon... I think I'll have a lot of fun.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-17, 02:03 PM
This stuff. Sold. Thank you VERY much. This cuts out my skill point starvation, gets me WAY good at social things, and... yeah. Excellent. Thank you. In addition to this and the Chameleon... I think I'll have a lot of fun.

Also, if you want more sneakier, and less blastier, then go Rogue1 (sub level)/Warlock3/Rogue...

Pick up the following invocations: Devil's Sight and Darkness

Then pick up the feat from Drow of the Underdark Blend Into Shadows. This effectively gives you Hide In Plain Sight. Then, you aren't invisible, just Hidden. And we can think of all KINDS of nasty things we can do while hidden, and not picked up by See Invis...

In fact, if you want to pick up See The Unseen for Darkvision and See Invis, you can then pick up the feat At Home In The Dark, and ignore your own Darkness areas, so you can hide and use it for cover and concealment, but they can't...

This also gives you a +2d6 EB to blast with, that can be pumped with items to +4d6, and then lets you continue Rogue, for more skill points, and can sneak attack with EB so you still get decent damage output.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 02:04 PM
This stuff. Sold. Thank you VERY much. This cuts out my skill point starvation, gets me WAY good at social things, and... yeah. Excellent. Thank you. In addition to this and the Chameleon... I think I'll have a lot of fun.Hmm, a fey flavoured CN warlock with skill point starvation…

{Scrubbed}. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2010-05-17, 02:10 PM
Hmm, a fey flavoured CN warlock with skill point starvation…
{Scrubbed}. :smallwink:

Exalted, etc. Now, make it CG or fluff though...

Fayd
2010-05-17, 02:11 PM
Possibly, but feat issues are another thing that I'm worried about. Level one is spent. 3 probably is as well (I'm thinking the Quick Change Changeling feat. It enables me to use my floating feat for a couple more cool things, in addition to extra invocations or crafting feats)

And sneaky is good, but not quite what I'm going for. I do want as full warlock as possible.

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 03:17 PM
As I said before, after Warlock 12 you have no real reason to stay Warlock. Add that to your two levels of Chameleon and you're at 14.

To finish up your build, try a PrC like Paragnostic Apostle, Escalation Mage, Urban Savant or Ruathar - and try for a level dip in Mindbender to get telepathy followed by Mindsight if you can.

Eldariel
2010-05-17, 03:35 PM
Possibly, but feat issues are another thing that I'm worried about. Level one is spent. 3 probably is as well (I'm thinking the Quick Change Changeling feat. It enables me to use my floating feat for a couple more cool things, in addition to extra invocations or crafting feats)

And sneaky is good, but not quite what I'm going for. I do want as full warlock as possible.

Well, if you aren't much into crafting, you don't need that many feats as a Warlock. They're useful, certainly, but far, far from necessary.