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Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 12:16 AM
I'm looking for good sayings for a Paladin to use. Any suggestions? I'd give examples but mine are all based off of a real world religion and therefore don't belong on these boards.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 12:17 AM
Start off with the classic "The power of <insert deity here> compels you!"

WildPyre
2010-05-17, 12:21 AM
Hmm yeah are we talking a specific paladin or just paladins in general? If it's a specific one then knowing who they worship and what they stand for would help.

skywalker
2010-05-17, 12:23 AM
"Pelor says die!"

There's always classics like "By Moradin's Beard (yes, Beard gets capitalized here)!"

The Rabbler
2010-05-17, 12:23 AM
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

shamelessly stolen from Pulp Fiction.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 12:23 AM
Paladins in general but also for my current Paladin.

He's a Paladin of Bahamut and has a kind of "anybody can be redeemed" attitude.

Jabber
2010-05-17, 12:23 AM
Just a couple...

"Smiting for Goodness!"

"I will redeem you, by force if neccessary"

"I smite because I care"

Lycan 01
2010-05-17, 12:27 AM
*put on sunglasses*

"We're on a mission from God."




"We are the earthy agents of God's divine punishment. Our mission is to destroy those who would oppose him, down to the last wee bit. AMEN!!" - Paladin Alexander Anderson, from Hellsing


"Kill them all. <god> will know his own..."

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 12:29 AM
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 12:37 AM
"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon."

.......you're name is strangely appropriate for this quote considering the character that says it.

Reynard
2010-05-17, 12:41 AM
"Remember the dead, but fight for the living."

Optimystik
2010-05-17, 12:43 AM
Just use generic knightly phrases that aren't specific to a particular religion.

"Light"
"Glory"
"Honor"
"Heathen"
"Blessing"
"Righteous"
"Wrath"
"Divine"
"Smite"
"Succor"

For instance: "The Light of [Deity] smite thee, heathen!"
Or: "Face [Deity's] righteous wrath, scoundrel!"
Or: "Accept the blessing of [Deity's] healing hands, comrade."

Just check other sources for paladins, like the spells and talents for the Warcraft paladin - you'll get tons of words like these.

Flame of Anor
2010-05-17, 12:48 AM
Repent or be smote!

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 12:55 AM
.......you're name is strangely appropriate for this quote considering the character that says it.

Sanity is not a prerequisite for paladinhood. (Speaking of which, next campaign I'm in I'm totally rolling a psycho paladin.)

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-17, 01:00 AM
Rather than being an Angry or Righteous Paladin... be a Redeemer.

When someone indicates they follow a deity other than yours:
"That is good... too."

When confronting villianous minions:
"Repent your evil ways and you will not be harmed."

When questioned by your party about why you keep asking the enemy to surrender:
"There is no being so evil that the Light of Bahamut cannot reach them and raise them up."

When villianous minions attack anyway:
"I pray you find the redemption in death that you spurned here in life."

Before you use your Breath Weapon (if you're a Dragonborn with that ability, of course):
"The Holy Flames of Bahamut will cleanse you!"

Mastikator
2010-05-17, 01:04 AM
I am <insert name>, paladin of <insert organization>
You <insert name>, are under arrest for <insert crimes>, surrender and be taken to a fair and just trial where holy judgement will be rendered and justice will be served.

EccentricOwl
2010-05-17, 01:04 AM
Do your players like Warhammer?

"GOOD FOR THE GOOD GOD!"

Set
2010-05-17, 01:07 AM
"It is not my place to judge you. That would be hubris, the sin of pride. My duty is to humbly send you to the One who shall." <draws sword>

<while hacking and slashing through the battlefield> "Know that I take no pleasure in this..." <as a foe falls> "I forgive you." <moves on to fell another> "Be at peace." <and another> "May your next life be better than this."

"The stain of evil upon you roils about you like vermin. I am here to save you from this terrible thing that you have done to yourself."

"Rejoice, for your redemption is at hand." <draws greatsword>

"I've got your forgiveness right here." <sword with the word 'forgiveness' written in celestial on the blade>

"Your soul can still be saved, if, like a surgeon, I cut away all that is diseased." <pause, tilts head while detecting evil> "Which appears to be pretty much everything... Shall we get to work?"

"Your pacts with fell powers come at a terrible price, and I, like an unwelcome taxman, am here to collect the balance due."

"The only coin that can repay your terrible deeds is forged in steel and annointed in the blood of the wicked. I have it here in my hand."

"The Dialogues of Anachritius are quite clear on the punishments for your crimes. While you deserve much worse, I am admonished to make your death as clean, swift and painless as possible. Forgive me if I am not entirely successful..."

"I swear to treat your wife and child better than you have, upon the event of your passing."

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 01:09 AM
There's always the sayings of Big (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20060218.html) Ears (http://goblins.keenspot.com/d/20061223.html), after whom most of my paladin-type characters are modeled.

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 01:11 AM
"When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree besides the river of truth, and tell the whole world--

--No, you move."

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 01:12 AM
Rather than being an Angry or Righteous Paladin... be a Redeemer.

When someone indicates they follow a deity other than yours:
"That is good... too."

When confronting villianous minions:
"Repent your evil ways and you will not be harmed."
These are good.


When questioned by your party about why you keep asking the enemy to surrender:
"There is no being so evil that the Light of Bahamut cannot reach them and raise them up." really like this one.


When villianous minions attack anyway:
"I pray you find the redemption in death that you spurned here in life."

Before you use your Breath Weapon (if you're a Dragonborn with that ability, of course):
"The Holy Flames of Bahamut will cleanse you!"
Hmm. definitely going to use the first. Not sure about the second.

These are more along the lines of what I'm looking for. (going to be a Dragonborn eventually. Just wondering whether I can convince my DM to give me all three aspects somehow. or at the very least the wings and breath weapon.)

Kris Strife
2010-05-17, 01:17 AM
"I kick *** for (insert deity of choice here)"

"In the name of (insert deity of choice here), foul spirits release these bodies that they may return to their eternal rest!"

The others I've got right now are either fairly well reflected here, or slightly modified versions of lines from Gurren Lagann and G-Gundam.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 01:18 AM
Modified lines are fine.


"It is not my place to judge you. That would be hubris, the sin of pride. My duty is to humbly send you to the One who shall." <draws sword>


I like this one too.

Malificus
2010-05-17, 01:26 AM
Hey, Pelor, you're so fine,
You're so fine you blow my mind,
Hey Pelor (woo woo)
Hey Pelor (woo woo)

Or you could just quote anything Don Quixote says in Man of la Mancha

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 01:27 AM
Hey, Pelor, you're so fine,
You're so fine you blow my mind,
Hey Pelor (woo woo)
Hey Pelor (woo woo)

Or you could just quote anything Don Quixote says in Man of la Mancha

Yeah, that ain't going to work. Me and Pelor kind of had a....a falling out if you will.

and what is man of la mancha?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-17, 01:33 AM
Yeah, that ain't going to work. Me and Pelor kind of had a....a falling out if you will.

and what is man of la mancha?

It's a book that treats the story of Don Quixote in a more mature and sympathetic manner than the original author did.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 01:34 AM
........and Don Quixote is?

ninjaneer003
2010-05-17, 01:37 AM
Great mental quote/action by our warforged paladin

"I hear sounds on the other side of this wall. I'll use my hardened warforged body to break through it!"

Malificus
2010-05-17, 01:45 AM
........and Don Quixote is?Don Quixote is a man who read so many books about chivalry that he became delusional, believing that he himself was a knight errant.

The result was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHnzYEHAow&feature=related

Macrovore
2010-05-17, 01:47 AM
Take it from probably our best modern example of a paladin:
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/1/5/633667566176885974-Roleplaying.jpg

Lev
2010-05-17, 01:49 AM
Gentlemen.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/7301/paladinmotivational2.jpg

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 02:16 AM
"If you refuse to seek repentance in this life, then I pray you seek it in the next. May the pain of my blade remind you of this."

"The breath of the Lord of the North Wind (that's a title of Bahamut IIRC) guide you."

"The Platinum Father watches over us."

Galileo
2010-05-17, 02:57 AM
Personally, I favour the Crazy Good style of Paladining.
Essentially, it's "Buttkicking... FOR GOODNESS!"

paddyfool
2010-05-17, 03:44 AM
You may find this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150537)handy.

Xuc Xac
2010-05-17, 05:05 AM
"There is still good in you! I can feel it. It's not too late to turn back."

"I cannot allow your evil to continue. Please don't do this. You have the power to end your evil without bloodshed. *draw sword* I don't."

"You can be redeemed. If you strike me down, know that I will blaze a trail to Heaven for you and I pray that you will someday join me there. There is no one so vile that they cannot be cleansed in His Light."

"The pain of your flesh is fleeting, but the light of your soul will shine forever. Trust in the Light and be not afraid!"

"All they can do is take our lives! What is one lifetime compared to an Eternity in the Light? Take heart and know that this Darkness before us is but the blink of an eye before we are illuminated forever!"

"With every foul deed, you forge the chains link by link that drag your soul down into Darkness. Let go of your hatred and be free to rise to the Light!"

For intelligent corporeal undead:
"You have not cheated death. This flesh is a prison for your soul! You have robbed yourself of the Light and locked your soul in Darkness. Let go of your fear and pass through the door. The Light is waiting for you on the other side if you will only seek it out!"

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 05:13 AM
Latin is always good. I reckon it being said several hundred years ago probably makes "deus lo vult!" (pronounced wult - god wills it) no longer inappropriate.

Or maybe: "With righteous anger and holy zeal I will smite those who do not repent".

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 05:20 AM
*put on sunglasses*

"We're on a mission from God."


<Rogue> "The goliath was found decapitated this morning."
<Paladin> "Well, it looks like someone wanted our friend here..."
*puts on shades*
"...cut down to size."
<Bard>YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Kol Korran
2010-05-17, 05:21 AM
Don Quixote is a man who read so many books about chivalry that he became delusional, believing that he himself was a knight errant.

The result was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHnzYEHAow&feature=related

hey, thanks for that. been a Loooooonnng time since i saw that movie. brought a few tears to my eye.

isn't there a Don Quixote (of a sort) in many of us?

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 05:43 AM
A lot of good examples here.

It sounds to me like you want to play a lawful GOOD paladin, and not a LAWFUL good paladin.

As long as someone is following a deity that is either good or neutral, don't bug them about it. If they are following an evil one, offer them to turn to Bahamut instead of slaying them (insert a way to say it that fits your character).

Greenish
2010-05-17, 06:00 AM
Don Quixote is a man who read so many books about chivalry that he became delusional, believing that he himself was a knight errant.

The result was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfHnzYEHAow&feature=relatedAwesome, how have I missed that?

Amphetryon
2010-05-17, 06:06 AM
"This will hurt me more than it hurts you..."

Shademan
2010-05-17, 06:16 AM
"I kick ass for the lord(insert deity here)!"

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 06:25 AM
Awesome, how have I missed that?

It is also, AFAIK, the first "real" fictional novel of the modern type, the first volume was published in 1605.

Bharg
2010-05-17, 06:39 AM
"I should spread the buttery justice of <god's name here> on the toast of your inequity!"
-The Gamers: Dorkness Rising

Greenish
2010-05-17, 06:48 AM
It is also, AFAIK, the first "real" fictional novel of the modern type, the first volume was published in 1605.I meant "The Man of La Mancha", not the original. :smallamused:

Avilan the Grey
2010-05-17, 06:55 AM
I meant "The Man of La Mancha", not the original. :smallamused:

Ah. I see. Ok. Hmm.

Point taken. :smallsmile:

Agent_0042
2010-05-17, 06:55 AM
You can always try some of these. :smalltongue:

http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Dawn_of_War:_Quotes#Start_menu_quotes:_Imperium_Th ought_for_the_Day

Greenish
2010-05-17, 07:06 AM
You can always try some of these. :smalltongue:

http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Dawn_of_War:_Quotes#Start_menu_quotes:_Imperium_Th ought_for_the_DayIf being really Lawful is enough to compensate for the lack of goodness.

Altarus
2010-05-17, 08:09 AM
The Canticle of Absolution of the Grey Knights (http://fallfromgrace78.wordpress.com/2006/10/14/the-canticle-of-absolution-of-the-grey-knights/)

This for those Grey Guards

I know, Grey Knights are from Warhammer40k. But is is awesome.

Thajocoth
2010-05-17, 08:14 AM
"By the Platinum Dragon!" (The Platinum Dragon is another name for Bahamut. I'm sure you could work with that.)

ShinyRocks
2010-05-17, 08:15 AM
Heh. 'No reward is necessary.' Quickly followed by 'Stop kicking me in the shins!' to the rest of the party.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 08:19 AM
More generic lines:

"Glory is eternal."
"I embody the warmth of his grace, the heat of his wrath, the softness of his hand, the hardness of his talons."
"My blade is severe mercy."
"Nothing is too filthy to be purified by His/Her grace."

grolim
2010-05-17, 08:37 AM
We may live in peace, or You can rest in peace, but no matter the choice there WILL be peace.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-17, 09:01 AM
Cribbed from the works of Terry Pratchett and expanded on, to be said OF a paladin rather than by a paladin (specifically said by an assassin in one of my games):

“I’d much rather be in the hands of an evil man if I was truly irredeemable. An evil man would take pleasure in it. He’d like to watch me squirm, see the pain in my face. He’d like the power he would have over me as he could decide whether I lived or died. A good man wouldn’t do any of that. When a good man believes you must die, he simply kills you. He takes no pleasure in the deed and there is no gloating. If the world would be a better place without you in it, he makes it so.

Perhaps you cannot understand the ramifications of this statement. Every moment you are alive, every moment you are conscious, and every moment you have prior to oblivion is a chance to improvise, to strain, to strive, to escape.

If a good man has decided it is time for you to die, there is no escape.”

The J Pizzel
2010-05-17, 09:03 AM
"And when I vest my flashing sword And my hand takes hold in judgement I will take vengeance upon mine enemies And I will repay those who hase me, raise me to Thy right hand And count me amoung Thy saints ."

"Whosoever shed last blood. By man shall his blood be shed. For immunity of god make he the man. Destroy all that which is evil. So that which is good may flourish. And I shall count thee amoung my favoured sheep. And you shall have the protection of all the angels in heaven."

"Never shall innocent blood be shed. Yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeaful striking hammer of god. "

-or-

"And Shepherds we shall be

For thee, my Lord, for thee.

Power hath descended forth from Thy hand

Our feet may swiftly carry out Thy commands.

So we shall flow a river forth to Thee

And teeming with souls shall it ever be."

-or-

"Now you will receive us. We do not ask for your poor or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick. It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be saught by us. With every breath we shall hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood ‘til it rains down from the skies. Do not kill, do not rape, to not steal. These are principles, which every man of every faith can embrace. These are not polite suggestions, these are codes of behavior and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost. There are varying degrees of evil. We urge you lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over into true corruption, into our domain. But if you do you, one day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will reap it. And we will send you to whatever god you wish."

Yeah. I like Boondock Saints.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 09:13 AM
“I’d much rather be in the hands of an evil man if I was truly irredeemable. An evil man would take pleasure in it. He’d like to watch me squirm, see the pain in my face. He’d like the power he would have over me as he could decide whether I lived or died. A good man wouldn’t do any of that. When a good man believes you must die, he simply kills you. He takes no pleasure in the deed and there is no gloating. If the world would be a better place without you in it, he makes it so.

Perhaps you cannot understand the ramifications of this statement. Every moment you are alive, every moment you are conscious, and every moment you have prior to oblivion is a chance to improvise, to strain, to strive, to escape.

If a good man has decided it is time for you to die, there is no escape.”

Run. Just run. :smalleek:

Set
2010-05-17, 10:26 AM
<Draws sword in one hand, passes pouch full of gold to the cleric standing next to him>

Cleric "What's this for?"

Paladin "I'm gonna need an Atonement in a minute."

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-17, 10:40 AM
“I want you to understand exactly what I am. I am a paladin. I am not a cleric, I am not a knight, I am not a warrior, I am not a bodyguard, I am not some god-bothering pissant with a glowing sword. I…am…a…paladin. I am the absolute, be-all and end-all word of my god. I am not his gentle caress nor his faithful devotion. I am not his love nor his mercy. I am his sword-arm, his blade, his thunderbolt, his vengeance, his judgment.

And you?

You are as the chaff before my storm.”

“You are standing between me and my injured friends. Remove yourself or I will remove you.”

“Upon my back I bear the hopes of an entire faith. My shield defends their dreams and my sword strikes down their enemies. What do you bring to the table that could possible stop that?”

Another one cribbed from Terry Pratchett and expanded on:

“People say that it is a great thing to die for your god. This is stupid. For a god, you should live your life, fully and grandly, to the greatest extent, praising their name and adding to their glory. Have you found your god yet? I have mine. What do you live for?”

“I have offered you an amnesty…a chance to escape with your life and your honor intact. If I see that hand stray towards the hilt of your sword one more time, we may consider that amnesty broken and may my deity forgive me for doing what I think is right.”

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 10:44 AM
"Now think real hard. You been bird-doggin' this township awhile now. They wouldn't mind a corpse of you. Now, you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you."

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-17, 11:24 AM
"I should spread the buttery justice of <god's name here> on the toast of your inequity!"
-The Gamers: Dorkness Rising"The spatula of righteousness shall scramble the eggs of your malfeasance!"
- Same

Xuc Xac
2010-05-17, 11:34 AM
If you want to use Charisma as your dump stat:
"Hey, you bad guys! Knock off all that evil! I mean it!"

Malificus
2010-05-17, 11:41 AM
If you want to use Charisma as your dump stat:
"Hey, you bad guys! Knock off all that evil! I mean it!"

Why is the paladin dump stating charisma?

Hendel
2010-05-17, 11:44 AM
I have always liked something short and simple like:


Spoon!!!!

paddyfool
2010-05-17, 11:44 AM
Perhaps he took the Serenity feat...

Gauntlet
2010-05-17, 11:45 AM
Take a leaf out of Pastor Oats' book and name your Greatsword Forgiveness. Offer your enemies redemption if they will atone for their sins. If they refuse.. grant them Forgiveness.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 11:50 AM
Why is the paladin dump stating charisma?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html

Jayabalard
2010-05-17, 11:55 AM
Are you looking for serious things to say or something more on the strange side?

If the latter, you could pattern your sayings after the various omnian quotes from discworld (Constable Visit-the-infidel-with-explanatory-pamphlets has quite a number of these, and I think that the Quite Reverend Mightily-Praiseworthy-Are-Ye-Who-Exalteth-Om Oats did as well).

Unfortunately I don't have any on tap at the moment

Ravens_cry
2010-05-17, 12:05 PM
Villain:"Where is your god now?! *evil laugh*"
Paladin"They sent me."

electricbee
2010-05-17, 12:25 PM
Some quick battle cry type quotes cribbed from a video game:

"Meet thy maker sinner!"

"Feel His wrath!"

"Once again the Order is Victorious!"

Xallace
2010-05-17, 02:12 PM
Use "Righteous!" as an exclamation of approval.

Critical
2010-05-17, 02:14 PM
"Today a Paladin, tommorow - a Blackguard..."

...

Oh, that kind of sayings. :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2010-05-17, 02:24 PM
This sacrilege ends now!
Seek now redemption or death shalt be your reward!
Run, for death stacks your steps.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-17, 02:31 PM
Use "Righteous!" as an exclamation of approval.

But then you need to make sure to address everyone as "dude."

LibraryOgre
2010-05-17, 02:57 PM
Paladins in general but also for my current Paladin.

He's a Paladin of Bahamut and has a kind of "anybody can be redeemed" attitude.

Funnily, I'm playing about the same thing... a 4e avenger, MC Paladin, but the same idea. He's already offered redemption to a deva vampire (who he knew a few lifetimes ago) and a raksasha... both our current enemies.

One of my favorites is "We do what we must because we can." It has somewhat ominous tones for people who are familiar with Portal, but it's a very Paladin thing to say. Certain things must be done... and the Paladin or other adventurers are the ones who are capable of doing it. It conveys a sense of duty and necessity.

Another favorite is "I'm sorry." Paladins are far too often haughty. If you're a redeemer paladin, there's a few things that should keep you from that. One, you should be willing to apologize for the sins of yourself and others... to assuage people's anger so they can let it go. Secondly, you should feel sorry when you CANNOT save someone. When their evil keeps them from redemption, you should apologize... not because it is your fault, but because you were unable to save them.

Along that vein:
"You can still come back."
"If you are willing, we can help you."
"Come with me if you want to live."

Zen Master
2010-05-17, 02:57 PM
Hm .... I like the LAWFUL good paladin better.

"Your transgressions end here!"

"There is mercy for the repentant - for you, there is punishment and death!"

"It is not my hand, but His Will, that cuts you down, curr!"

"In my left hand, judgement - in my right, retribution!"

"No crime can be tolerated. But some can be forgiven. Others, punished. But for the very worst of crimes - I am the only justice!"

"By the word of the Law, and the will of almighty God, I release vengeance upon you. Shiver, faithles sinner, for terrible justice is upon you!"

"Justice, towering over freedom!"

"My mandate is absolute. I am above question. Above doubt. The Law guides me, and commands your destruction. Kneel, and receive absolution!"

"Know that I bring salvation. Only my sword can save you from the eternal fires of all the hells!"

Note that paladins end all sentences with exclamation marks.

Learnedguy
2010-05-17, 02:58 PM
"I'm here now."

2xMachina
2010-05-17, 03:07 PM
For PONY<insert name of deity>!

Loxagn
2010-05-17, 03:07 PM
Happened once in an rp, with another person's character. The character was not explicitly a paladin, but had some massive paladin tendencies. The character in question was surrounded by enemies, and things looked bad.
Character: "Please. I beg of you, lay down your weapons. My quarry is with your Lord, not with you."
Enemies: "Never! You oppose the Lord, you must die!"
Character: <draws sword, and with a very sad sigh> "... I see. Then, if you will not stand down... I must ask your forgiveness."
About six seconds later, there were a lot of dead soldiers, and one very solemn character wiping the blood from his sword.

Several Christian prayers also work brilliantly to be retooled for other deities, such as this famous one:

"[Deity] is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He makes me to lie in green pastures,
And He leads me beside the still waters.
He restores my soul;
He leads me in the paths of righteousness, for your sake and for mine.

And though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil; for He is with me.
His light and his power, they comfort me.
He gives me strength in the presence of my enemies,
And He anoints me with glory, so my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in His house forever."
-Psalms 23, roughly.

CoffeeIncluded
2010-05-17, 03:18 PM
Redeemer type? Hmm...

"We all make mistakes. If you say that you've never flubbed once, then you're a liar. I too have made mistakes, done deeds that I regret. Don't call me perfect, or infallible, because I'm not. Nobody is.

But the important thing is what happens after? Do we keep going, or do we just give up, give in to our baser whims?

Me, when I fall off my horse, I get back up and try again. And I never allow myself to forget my mistakes. That way, I can learn from them, grow from them. That's what a paladin does. I try my best, and when I mess up, I try again, and try harder than before.

What about you?"

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 03:39 PM
Hm .... I like the LAWFUL good paladin better.
.

Maybe that's the case. However, I am not you, this is not your character, and I do not wish to play a LAWFUL good Paladin. Plus, those sound more Lawful neutral.

doing one more thing then going back to my break.

Please don't advise me on how to play my character. I've already decided my concept.

Ormur
2010-05-17, 03:41 PM
"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can imagine".

Don't you suppose the gods would make dead Paladins powerful outsiders.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-17, 03:49 PM
"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can imagine".

Don't you suppose the gods would make dead Paladins powerful outsiders.
That would be pretty awesome and make sense. After all, an evil enough dead person can, with time, rise up the ranks of Demons or Devils.

Lord Loss
2010-05-17, 03:53 PM
I offer you redemption, either on this earth or in the realm of bahamut. The Choice is yours.

Xallace
2010-05-17, 03:53 PM
But then you need to make sure to address everyone as "dude."

And become an Ashworm dragoon so that you can claim your mount is "totally tubular."

Crafty Cultist
2010-05-17, 04:40 PM
"You think me but a man, but the platinum lord guides my actions. I will not hesitate. I will not fall. I will bring you to justice, as surely as the north wind shall blow"

Zen Master
2010-05-17, 05:10 PM
Maybe that's the case. However, I am not you, this is not your character, and I do not wish to play a LAWFUL good Paladin. Plus, those sound more Lawful neutral.

doing one more thing then going back to my break.

Please don't advise me on how to play my character. I've already decided my concept.

Can you point out to me where I in any way, shape of form tell you how to play your character?

Or failing that, I'll gladly accept your apology for putting words in my mouth for no god damned reason at all.

If you dislike my suggestions that's completely fine. Use them or not, I honestly don't give a damn - and I'll never know about it, one way or the other.

faith
2010-05-17, 05:20 PM
from changes:

False gods! Pretenders! Usurpers of truth! Destroyers of faith, of families, of lives, of children! For your crimes against the *insert victims names*, against the peoples of the world, now will you answer! Your time has come! Face judgment Almighty!

Xzeno
2010-05-17, 05:29 PM
And become an Ashworm dragoon so that you can claim your mount is "totally tubular."

DING DING DING! We have a winner.

Anyway, my gnome paladin and first D&D character's motto was: A necessary evil - ain't.

I thought it was a good one.

The Tygre
2010-05-17, 05:48 PM
"But down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid." -Raymond Chandler

"You gotta be one of the good guys, Jesse. Because there's way too many of the bad." - Preacher

More General Paladin-yness

“Surely Satan himself must have let loose the gates of hell... for what haunts my flock is surely not the work of our Lord. People are scared. They feel God has abandoned us. The Earth becomes the devil’s playground, and people begin to lose faith in the Lord. 'Where is he,' they ask. 'Why does he not answer our prayers?' People need miracles. They need to see that God is with us always. Even when it seems He is not. They need to see His love... and he certainly has his hands full.

I am His shepherd, and so He has called upon me to deliver.”


None of that, 'Oh well if you're truly sorry, there's nothing I can do,' horse****. No, he coup de graces your ass because he's a goddamn Paladin. His job is killing evil. You know what his job doesn't entail? Being a sympathetic ear for every whiny NE or CN or LE douchebag who's only being evil because the world is unfair to him or every punk that lets his own dislikes or laziness overcome his own personality.

You know what unfair is? Being able to know what kind of person everyone is before you even talk to them. Smelling evil so potent on a mother****er that you want to sink your fingers in his chest and pull that tar out until the screaming stops. Having the psychotic urge to murder people that you've never even met, for the sole reason that your God decided that you ought to be his right hand without your choice in the matter, that's unfair.

But unlike Evil McBlacknails over there, that Paladin puts on his helmet, sharpens his sword, and then continues walking through crowds of people day by day, resisting the urge. Seeing evidence of injustice so black it makes him sick. Seeing murderers and rapists walk the street, watching good men hang as evil ones pull the lever. Saving his righteous violence for when the situation exactly, specifically, precisely calls for it. Surgically removing that which is most evil.

Because he's a Paladin. And if he gave in to the urge, what would he be?

Who will right the true wrongs if not he?

It's not about not falling as a Paladin. It's about falling so ****ing hard you crash through the planet and stand up on the other side.

gdiddy
2010-05-17, 05:56 PM
Some really juicy ones in here... (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Dawn_of_War)

The Dark Fiddler
2010-05-17, 06:00 PM
None of that, 'Oh well if you're truly sorry, there's nothing I can do,' horse****. No, he coup de graces your ass because he's a goddamn Paladin. His job is killing evil. You know what his job doesn't entail? Being a sympathetic ear for every whiny NE or CN or LE douchebag who's only being evil because the world is unfair to him or every punk that lets his own dislikes or laziness overcome his own personality.

You know what unfair is? Being able to know what kind of person everyone is before you even talk to them. Smelling evil so potent on a mother****er that you want to sink your fingers in his chest and pull that tar out until the screaming stops. Having the psychotic urge to murder people that you've never even met, for the sole reason that your God decided that you ought to be his right hand without your choice in the matter, that's unfair.

But unlike Evil McBlacknails over there, that Paladin puts on his helmet, sharpens his sword, and then continues walking through crowds of people day by day, resisting the urge. Seeing evidence of injustice so black it makes him sick. Seeing murderers and rapists walk the street, watching good men hang as evil ones pull the lever. Saving his righteous violence for when the situation exactly, specifically, precisely calls for it. Surgically removing that which is most evil.

Because he's a Paladin. And if he gave in to the urge, what would he be?

Who will right the true wrongs if not he?

It's not about not falling as a Paladin. It's about falling so ****ing hard you crash through the planet and stand up on the other side.

This... this is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

The person who wrote this deserve an award.

Strategos
2010-05-17, 06:07 PM
Kinda off topic but why should a Paladin have to choose between LAWFUL good and lawful GOOD? Shouldn't a Paladin be always be, by definition, LAWFUL GOOD? A champion of good, a champion of order and above all else, a champion of justice?

Speaking of champions of justice, here's a quote:

I fight for truth. I fight for justice.
I fight for everyone to have a fair chance,
and when faced with tribulation, I think of my own inspiration.
He taught me to always hold my stance.
I fight for men. I fight for women.
I fight for anyone who aims to do what's right--
so I chose this occupation, a dedication to salvation.
For society, I fight. (http://www.pwmusical.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6:justice-for-all&catid=1:act-i&Itemid=6)

There are some more lyrics in the song that fit a Paladin very well, with a bit of tweaking of course.

And a quote from the Reprise (http://www.pwmusical.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=3%3Aact-iii&id=29%3Ajustice-for-all-reprise&Itemid=6):

We fight for all! We fight with honor!
And we will never rest--together, we unite!
For ever since the world's creation, mankind has sought his liberation,
So throughout this litigation, as we pursue purification,
No matter what the situation, we will fulfill our obligation,
For the law's own consecration, for the better of the nation,
For the future of all...

We fight!


This... this is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

The person who wrote this deserve an award.

I agree, that was very well done.

To whoever wrote that I salute you, you deserve much more than that however.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 06:11 PM
Can you point out to me where I in any way, shape of form tell you how to play your character?

Or failing that, I'll gladly accept your apology for putting words in my mouth for no god damned reason at all.

If you dislike my suggestions that's completely fine. Use them or not, I honestly don't give a damn - and I'll never know about it, one way or the other.Very good righteous indignation. I give it 5/5.

Lev
2010-05-17, 06:32 PM
The tick has great sayings for all characters, and great if you want a rantingly absurd paladin.


Eating kittens is just plain... plain wrong! And no-one should do it, ever!

Everybody was a baby once, Arthur. Oh, sure, maybe not today, or even yesterday. But once. Babies, chum: tiny, dimpled, fleshy mirrors of our us-ness, that we parents hurl into the future, like leathery footballs of hope. And you've got to get a good spiral on that baby, or evil will make an interception.

Evil, chum, is ever-green.

I am mighty. I have a glow you cannot see. I have a heart as big as the moon. As warm as bathwater. We are superheroes, men, we don't have time to be charming. The boots of evil were made for walkin'. We're watching the big picture, friend. We know the score. We are a public service, not glamour boys. Not captains of industry. Keep your vulgar moneys. We are a justice sandwich. No toppings necessary. Living rooms of America, do you catch my drift? Do you dig?

Let your journey into hugeness teach us all a lesson. Absolute power is a sticky wicket. And, Arthur, chum, you were the stickiest. Don't you get it, good friend? Some of the best things come in small packages. But large things can't. Unless they're inflatable, or require some assembly, or unless they're hearts. Yes, giant, juicy, loving hearts. As big as the moon, but much, much warmer.

Thank you for teaching us all that love is thicker than most bodily membranes. But not quite as sticky. And that a heart full of love is better than a body full of people. Merrilly, the feet that carried us on the heart's path today will be the feet that soak in the steaming brew of happiness tomorrow.

You know, evil comes in many forms, be it a man-eating cow or Joseph Stalin. But you can't let the package hide the pudding. Evil is just plain bad. You don't cotton to it. You gotta smack it on the nose with the rolled up newspaper of goodness. Bad dog! Bad dog!

You know, Arthur, when evil is afoot, and you don't have any arms, you've gotta use your head. And when evil is ahead and you're behind, you've gotta do the legwork. But when you can't get a leg up, you gotta be hip. You gotta keep your chin up, and kick some--

Eldonauran
2010-05-17, 06:54 PM
Kinda off topic but why should a Paladin have to choose between LAWFUL good and lawful GOOD? Shouldn't a Paladin be always be, by definition, LAWFUL GOOD? A champion of good, a champion of order and above all else, a champion of justice?

The crux of that issue lies in the Paladin's code. A Paladin can NOT choose to be lawful over good, since commiting an evil act will make him fall, no matter how minor it is. A minor chaotic act will not cause a Paladin to fall, as it is not a 'gross violation' of their code, only a minor one.

A Paladin does, and always should, put the GOOD* before the LAWFUL.

*= Do not confuse good with 'greater good' or similar sayings. Even if you do a world of good with a minor evil act, you still fall. Evil is evil.

On a personal note, I enjoy playing paladins despite, and even because of, the restrictive code. You know the road you have to walk and woe to those that try to make you stray. It is not always easy, a sometimes almost impossible, but it is the 'right road'. Someone has to walk it.


Originally Posted by The Tygre

None of that, 'Oh well if you're truly sorry, there's nothing I can do,' horse****. No, he coup de graces your ass because he's a goddamn Paladin. His job is killing evil. You know what his job doesn't entail? Being a sympathetic ear for every whiny NE or CN or LE douchebag who's only being evil because the world is unfair to him or every punk that lets his own dislikes or laziness overcome his own personality.

You know what unfair is? Being able to know what kind of person everyone is before you even talk to them. Smelling evil so potent on a mother****er that you want to sink your fingers in his chest and pull that tar out until the screaming stops. Having the psychotic urge to murder people that you've never even met, for the sole reason that your God decided that you ought to be his right hand without your choice in the matter, that's unfair.

But unlike Evil McBlacknails over there, that Paladin puts on his helmet, sharpens his sword, and then continues walking through crowds of people day by day, resisting the urge. Seeing evidence of injustice so black it makes him sick. Seeing murderers and rapists walk the street, watching good men hang as evil ones pull the lever. Saving his righteous violence for when the situation exactly, specifically, precisely calls for it. Surgically removing that which is most evil.

Because he's a Paladin. And if he gave in to the urge, what would he be?

Who will right the true wrongs if not he?

It's not about not falling as a Paladin. It's about falling so ****ing hard you crash through the planet and stand up on the other side.

I get goosebumps everytime I read this. This post is incredibly inspirational. A little gruff and unappreciatitive of the heavy burden a Paladin must carry, but inspirational none-the-less.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 06:57 PM
But then you need to make sure to address everyone as "dude."

...I seriously want to play a Paladin who talks like that.

Icewraith
2010-05-17, 06:59 PM
If nobody in the party shares the character's deity and one or more other PCs has the character's deity pegged completely wrong or is from a different prime material world with different deities:

"Infidels to the left of me, heathens to the right. Tremendous."

krossbow
2010-05-17, 06:59 PM
Can you start singing Dragonforce or Freedom call songs?

Kumo
2010-05-17, 07:17 PM
The crux of that issue lies in the Paladin's code. A Paladin can NOT choose to be lawful over good, since commiting an evil act will make him fall, no matter how minor it is. A minor chaotic act will not cause a Paladin to fall, as it is not a 'gross violation' of their code, only a minor one.

A Paladin does, and always should, put the GOOD* before the LAWFUL.

*= Do not confuse good with 'greater good' or similar sayings. Even if you do a world of good with a minor evil act, you still fall. Evil is evil.

On a personal note, I enjoy playing paladins despite, and even because of, the restrictive code. You know the road you have to walk and woe to those that try to make you stray. It is not always easy, a sometimes almost impossible, but it is the 'right road'. Someone has to walk it.



I get goosebumps everytime I read this. This post is incredibly inspirational. A little gruff and unappreciatitive of the heavy burden a Paladin must carry, but inspirational none-the-less.

I would agree that it is inspirational, except half of it is rendered moot by the fact that the detect evil power is not on constantly. =/

I don't find the paladin path to be the absolute best road because law is the easiest way to get away with an evil act. While he himself cannot commit a lawful evil act he has to abide by such acts that are committed by another. It's sad but also true. Any evil act can make a paladin fall but so can any change in alignment - ie, from Lawful to Neutral or even Chaotic Good.

Is a paladin good? yes, a hundred times yes (unless that paladin is being lawful good in as much of an ******* way as he can, but on the whole, yes, they're good.)

Are they the epitome of good? No. Sorry, they just aren't.

IonDragon
2010-05-17, 07:31 PM
Think about the crazy dude from the Serenity movie (as opposed to the TV show, some people call them by the same name).

That guy was craaaaazy, but the way he talked to people he really believed what he was doing was the right thing and was going to make the 'verse a better place for all.

"I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done."

This is a good death. There's no shame in this, in a man's death. A man who has done fine works. We're making a better world. All of them better worlds

Eldonauran
2010-05-17, 08:03 PM
I would agree that it is inspirational, except half of it is rendered moot by the fact that the detect evil power is not on constantly. =/

Agreed, but the general idea is the inspirational part.


I don't find the paladin path to be the absolute best road because law is the easiest way to get away with an evil act. While he himself cannot commit a lawful evil act he has to abide by such acts that are committed by another. It's sad but also true. Any evil act can make a paladin fall but so can any change in alignment - ie, from Lawful to Neutral or even Chaotic Good.

A Paladin can work against unfair laws without fear of falling. 'Respecting ligitimate authority figures' is open for a bit of interpretation. An unfair law that abuses innocents or harms them is something a Paladin can not stand for and must act against. As a DM, I would never rule that a Paladin helping to bring down a tyrannical government changes to a choatic or neutral alignment, unless that Paladin grossly violates his code of conduct in doing so. He is allowed to perform chaotic acts if the situation calls for it, all in service of the 'greater good' (but never evil acts).


Is a paladin good? yes, a hundred times yes (unless that paladin is being lawful good in as much of an ******* way as he can, but on the whole, yes, they're good.)

Are they the epitome of good? No. Sorry, they just aren't.

I bolded the important part of that quote. The correct answer is, Yes. Yes they are. Or rather, that is how they are if they are roleplayed correctly. Paladins are all but called 'exalted' in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Even with the various inconsitancies in that book as far as mechanics go, Paladins are the closest you are going to get to exalted without actually taking an exalted feat.

Even if a Paladin is offered two choices, both evil and both leading to some greater good, he will never choose either. He would (read this as should, if roleplayed from the presepective that they can not commit an evil act willingly. ie, correctly) always choose a third option, even if that meant he would die in the process, in an attempt to do the right thing.

Lev
2010-05-17, 08:08 PM
A Paladin does, and always should, put the GOOD* before the LAWFUL.
An easy way to remember what exactly lawful means is to instead of using the word lawful in your head, use the word biased.

Is your character biased towards her or her alignment, are they neutral about how they view others or do they just act the way they do under no specific guidance?

Personally I believe that a Chaotic Good individual is the truest form of good (being good for the sake of being good) but lawful good is the truest ACTING goodness, but are only good out of their own bias.

Kumo
2010-05-17, 08:12 PM
Agreed, but the general idea is the inspirational part.Which is why i WOULD agree.




A Paladin can work against unfair laws without fear of falling. 'Respecting ligitimate authority figures' is open for a bit of interpretation. An unfair law that abuses innocents or harms them is something a Paladin can not stand for and must act against. As a DM, I would never rule that a Paladin helping to bring down a tyrannical government changes to a choatic or neutral alignment, unless that Paladin grossly violates his code of conduct in doing so. He is allowed to perform chaotic acts if the situation calls for it, all in service of the 'greater good' (but never evil acts).

If the situation calls for it is the part that's open to interpretation. If a villian surrenders, whatever the outcome would be or whether or not the villian has had a legitimate change of heart, the paladin has to take him in for trial. Then if the villian gets free there is nothing the paladin can do but wait for somebody else to get hurt.


I bolded the important part of that quote. The correct answer is, Yes. Yes they are No, they're not, no, it isn't set in stone that that's correct, and i'm not going to debate that with you. Your mind will not be changed and neither will mine.


Even if a Paladin is offered two choices, both evil and both leading to some greater good, he will never choose either. He would (read this as should, if roleplayed from the presepective that they can not commit an evil act willingly. ie, correctly) always choose a third option, even if that meant he would die in the process, in an attempt to do the right thing.

There isn't always a 'third option'. At which point the paladin would freeze up looking for one and evil would get away with a new pair of shoes or a cigar or however that saying goes.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 08:18 PM
Can you start singing Dragonforce or Freedom call songs?

"We are warriors/Born from the light/An army for freedom, defenders of life!/
Warriors!/Euphoria will rise!/Returning from darkness, we bury all lies!"

^--- Paladin theme song.

Fayd
2010-05-17, 08:20 PM
There isn't always a 'third option'. At which point the paladin would freeze up looking for one and evil would get away with a new pair of shoes or a cigar or however that saying goes.

Actually, I disagree. There's always a third option... it is just sometimes really hard to find. Or requires that one get past survival instinct. But it is there. It requires going beyond the normal, above the expected, and past the boundaries of human endurance. But that is your calling. That is your duty. To endure and find another option where any lesser man would buckle to evil. You are strong. You are just. You are a paladin.

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 08:25 PM
"A day may come when the courage of fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the Age of [insert race] comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, [insert name of army]!"

"Forth, and fear no darkness! Arise! Arise, [insert name of army]! Spears shall be shaken, shields shall be splintered! A sword day... a red day... [I]ere the sun rises! Ride now!... Ride now!... Ride! Ride to ruin and the world's ending! Death! Death! Death! Forth, [insert name of army]!"


Actually, I disagree. There's always a third option... it is just sometimes really hard to find. Or requires that one get past survival instinct. But it is there. It requires going beyond the normal, above the expected, and past the boundaries of human endurance. But that is your calling. That is your duty. To endure and find another option where any lesser man would buckle to evil. You are strong. You are just. You are a paladin.

Consider this scenario; an artifact is going to irradicate the Higher Planes. The artifact is impossile to move from it's location or be destroyed, except by sacrificing yourself. However, even if you sacrifice yourself to destroy it, the backlash from it's destruction will still destroy all life on the Plane it's presently located on.

Name the third, non-evil option to solve this scenario.

Kumo
2010-05-17, 08:29 PM
Actually, I disagree. There's always a third option... it is just sometimes really hard to find. Or requires that one get past survival instinct. But it is there. It requires going beyond the normal, above the expected, and past the boundaries of human endurance.

I removed the parts that were a bunch of fluffy paladin praising.

There's a reason it's called a 'boundary'. Paladins are not from Krypton. They cannot do everything, and they cannot always do it right. Sometimes the only options the paladin is capable of taking are bad or worse. That's one reason they have the atonement spell: because the rules of good and evil are stone set things in DnD, not moral measurements as they are in life. A paladin, sooner or later, will have to commit an act that goes against the code. A legitimate authority with an unjust system of law, for instance. Opposing that law is breaking the code since the authority came to power through just and lawful means though the laws themselves are stupid. He would try to oppose it through the law while evil things are done outside of it that he could do nothing about.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 08:31 PM
Consider this scenario; an artifact is going to irradicate the Higher Planes. The artifact is impossile to move from it's location or be destroyed, except by sacrificing yourself. However, even if you sacrifice yourself to destroy it, the backlash from it's destruction will still destroy all life on the Plane it's presently located on.

Name the third, non-evil option to solve this scenario.

At this point, the DM is a jerk and WANTS the Paladin to fall. :smalltongue:

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 08:32 PM
At this point, the DM is a jerk and WANTS the Paladin to fall. :smalltongue:

Can't really fall if he's dead, now can he?

Heliomance
2010-05-17, 08:35 PM
Which is why i WOULD agree.





If the situation calls for it is the part that's open to interpretation. If a villian surrenders, whatever the outcome would be or whether or not the villian has had a legitimate change of heart, the paladin has to take him in for trial. Then if the villian gets free there is nothing the paladin can do but wait for somebody else to get hurt.

No, they're not, no, it isn't set in stone that that's correct, and i'm not going to debate that with you. Your mind will not be changed and neither will mine.



There isn't always a 'third option'. At which point the paladin would freeze up looking for one and evil would get away with a new pair of shoes or a cigar or however that saying goes.
At such times, all you can do is pray, with every fragment of your being, for just one chance. Where there is no third option, you create one. You find the way in the darkness. Where there is no hope, you bring hope, because you are a paladin, and giving up is incomprehensible. When the legions of hell are bearing down on you, it is your job to stand in their path, sword in hand, and say "This far, and no further." And who knows, maybe your stand will inspire the world to stand beside you, and you'll carry the day. Or maybe it won't. Bu it won't matter, because you did what was right, what had to be done. You stood there in the face of armageddon, because no-one else would. When people say "someone should do something about this," that someone is you. And sometimes all you can do is apologise, that everything you had within you wasn't quite enough.

There is a story told, of a child walking along a beach. Stranded on the sands were thousands of starfish, suffocating in the air. Moved by their plight, the boy walked among them, picking them up and returning them to the waves where they belonged. Seeing this, the child's parents asked him why he did this. After all, they said, there were many thousands of the unfortunate creatures stranded. Even were he to spend uncounted hours in his labour, he could no make a difference.
Bu what the boy had realised, that his parents had not, was that that was not the point. Maybe he couldn't make a difference in the overall scheme of things. But for each starfish that he returned to the sea - well, he had certainly made a difference to that one, had he not?

urbanpirate
2010-05-17, 08:37 PM
"please don't kill me"
"can i have my sword back please?"
"hey my grandma bought me that armor"
"tis but a scratch"
"hey put thos legs down they are mine... really guys i need those back"

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 08:39 PM
Can't really fall if he's dead, now can he?

Still stands that the DM is a jerk. We've got to remember that roleplaying the paladin's code requires more DM-player cooperation than usual. Forcing the paladin into a position where he falls right before he DIES is railroading.

Heliomance
2010-05-17, 08:41 PM
Consider this scenario; an artifact is going to irradicate the Higher Planes. The artifact is impossile to move from it's location or be destroyed, except by sacrificing yourself. However, even if you sacrifice yourself to destroy it, the backlash from it's destruction will still destroy all life on the Plane it's presently located on.

Name the third, non-evil option to solve this scenario.

"My Lord Heironious. I have been a loyal and faithful servant to you. I crave of you this one boon: that you grant me the power to end this threat without harm to innocents. Whatever price you exact, I pay it gladly, whatever consequence my actions bring upon my head, I accept. But this device will do untold evil if I do not stop it, and I have not the strength on my own. Please, my Lord. Grant me aid."

The Glyphstone
2010-05-17, 08:41 PM
Consider this scenario; an artifact is going to irradicate the Higher Planes. The artifact is impossile to move from it's location or be destroyed, except by sacrificing yourself. However, even if you sacrifice yourself to destroy it, the backlash from it's destruction will still destroy all life on the Plane it's presently located on.

Name the third, non-evil option to solve this scenario.

That's not really a scenario, because you didn't supply Evil Options 1 and 2...

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 08:42 PM
At such times, all you can do is pray, with every fragment of your being, for just one chance. Where there is no third option, you create one. You find the way in the darkness. Where there is no hope, you bring hope, because you are a paladin, and giving up is incomprehensible. When the legions of hell are bearing down on you, it is your job to stand in their path, sword in hand, and say "This far, and no further." And who knows, maybe your stand will inspire the world to stand beside you, and you'll carry the day. Or maybe it won't. Bu it won't matter, because you did what was right, what had to be done. You stood there in the face of armageddon, because no-one else would. When people say "someone should do something about this," that someone is you. And sometimes all you can do is apologise, that everything you had within you wasn't quite enough.

Action: Congratulations. You've now killed yourself, and wiped out all life on the plane the artifact was located on.

Inaction: Congratulations. You're still alive, but now the entirety of the Higher Planes (including any good-aligned dead folks) have been eradicated. And with no one in their way, the Lower Planes have enslaved or killed everyone else in the multiverse.

I made a difference! Which has been rendered completely moot because either way everyone you've ever helped is dead or worse.


Pray to the god that grants you your powers to help you, because this is deity level magic and beyond your capabilities.

If it was merely diety-level magic the artifact wouldn't be much of a problem. After all, the Good-Aligned Gods aren't terribly interested in being destroyed.


That's not really a scenario, because you didn't supply Evil Options 1 and 2...

Evil Option 1: Even if the Higher Planes are at risk, you can't be directly responsible for the death of everyone on this Plane. Do nothing and allow the Higher Planes to be destroyed. You've now allowed an infinte supply of Good-Aligned beings to be erradicated. You're Evil.

Evil Option 2: Even if this plane is destroyed, it's population pales in comparison to that of the Higher Planes. Sacrifice yourself. You've now murdered billions of sentient beings. You're Evil.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-05-17, 08:45 PM
Can't really fall if he's dead, now can he?

Player: Alright, I suppose I sacrifice myself and destroy the artifact.
DM: Right, you die, as does everyone else on the plane. As your soul ascends to the heavens, you feel your powers drain away and here a voice in your head. 'You have now fallen. Goodbye.' Suddenly, you go to the Nine Hells.
Player: :smallannoyed:

Heliomance
2010-05-17, 08:46 PM
If it was merely diety-level magic the artifact wouldn't be much of a problem. After all, the Good-Aligned Gods aren't terribly interested in being destroyed.

Ah, okay. So tell me then, what created this artifact? If it's stronger than the gods themselves, where did it come from?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 08:48 PM
Ah, okay. So tell me then, what created this artifact? If it's stronger than the gods themselves, where did it come from?

the far realm or Ao deciding to be a Jerk.

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 08:48 PM
the far realm or Ao deciding to be a Jerk.

Pretty much.

Alternatively, if the Evil Gods outnumber the Good Gods, they combined their power to create this artifact, making it vastly more powerful than any one diety. Of course, in this situation the Neutral Gods would probably ally themselves with the Good Gods and overpower the artifact, so that's not a possiblity.

Heliomance
2010-05-17, 08:49 PM
the DM deciding to be a Jerk.
Pretty much.

Fixed that for you.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-17, 08:50 PM
Fixed that for you.

To be fair, Ao is pretty much the DM inserted into D&D.

at least of what I've heard of him.

Kumo
2010-05-17, 08:54 PM
At such times, all you can do is pray, with every fragment of your being, for just one chance. Where there is no third option, you create one.

Options are not 'made' by the people who choose them, they are taken. We like to THINK we made them, but sooner or later we had to take an oppurtunity ourselves, which then led to that option.

The only 'third option' a paladin has is to absolutely nothing. But that is itself not the 'right thing' and thus it's a lose-lose.

You keep making points that make little sense and the expounging about the 'greater good' which makes it a little hard for me to take you seriously. Paladins are not the empirical ironclad good. End of friggen story.

Heliomance
2010-05-17, 08:55 PM
Pretty sure Ao is not interested enough in the world that mortals can comprehend to even think of making such an artifact. The Far Realms certainly aren't. Both of them have intellects so alien that they wouldn't even think of trying to eradicate mortal life because it's utterly irrelevant to them.

The beings of the Far Realms are based off Lovecraftian mythos, and they're not malevloent. Inherently inimical to mortal life, yes. Malevolent, no.


Options are not 'made' by the people who choose them, they are taken. We like to THINK we made them, but sooner or later we had to take an oppurtunity ourselves, which then led to that option.

The only 'third option' a paladin has is to absolutely nothing. But that is itself not the 'right thing' and thus it's a lose-lose.

You keep making points that make little sense and the expounging about the 'greater good' which makes it a little hard for me to take you seriously. Paladins are not the empirical ironclad good. End of friggen story.


Uh, I've not used the term "greater good" once. I don't like the term. I only joined in this debate about half an hour ago, I think you're lumping me in with other posters. And the thing is, a Paladin, played right, SHOULD be the "empirical ironclad good". Although I do not think that empirical means what you think it means.

Paladins get a lot of bad press because of players taking the Rectal Stick ACF and because of DMs who don't like having a "goody two shoes" in the party and make them fall. But that's not how they should be. A Paladin should be a shining light of hope in the setting. They should be the one that, no matter what, comes through or dies trying. A Paladin should be the purest expression of absolute Goodness this side of a freaking Solar. A well-played Paladin is incredible. I've seen it done beautifully. A campaign I was in last year had a Paladin in the party who we literally followed into hell and back. Because we trusted him and believed in him that much.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 08:56 PM
Actually, the upper planes are intact, right?

1. Sacrifice myself. Falling as a Paladin does not mean I damn myself to hell for all eternity. Committing an evil act does not change my alignment instantly.
2. Good gods grant me a Miracle or Wish for saving the balance of the multiverse.
3. I Wish for all of the people who perished in the explosion to come back.
4. As for myself, I leave that to the mercy and justice of the gods.

If the DM says "LOL NO" to any of these, he really is a railroading jerk.

dspeyer
2010-05-17, 09:11 PM
Evil Option 1: Even if the Higher Planes are at risk, you can't be directly responsible for the death of everyone on this Plane. Do nothing and allow the Higher Planes to be destroyed. You've now allowed an infinte supply of Good-Aligned beings to be erradicated. You're Evil.

Evil Option 2: Even if this plane is destroyed, it's population pales in comparison to that of the Higher Planes. Sacrifice yourself. You've now murdered billions of sentient beings. You're Evil.

Evacuate this plane. It's probably within the reach of miracle, and certainly within the reach of epic spellcasting (we are an epic party with full casters, right?). I alone remain behind to de-activate the device.

Heliomance
2010-05-17, 09:14 PM
Oh but that won't work because you see the artifact is going to go off in one move action's time if you don't sacrifice yourself so if you wait to get everyone off the Prime then everyone on the Upper Planes is going to die kay? Oh you can cast Quickened Miracle oh I meant it's just gone off.

dspeyer
2010-05-17, 09:20 PM
Back to the original subject:

"No sentient being, when you understand his desires, is worthless. No one's life is nothing. Even the most evil, if you understand their hearts, had some generous act that redeems them, at least a little, from their sins."

"In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then for that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."

"I can kill anyone; it's a gift I was born with."

Yes, they are all from the same character.

Kumo
2010-05-17, 09:25 PM
Uh, I've not used the term "greater good" once. I don't like the term. I only joined in this debate about half an hour ago, I think you're lumping me in with other posters. And the thing is, a Paladin, played right, SHOULD be the "empirical ironclad good". Although I do not think that empirical means what you think it means.Empirical: Absolute.
Imperial: Of, like, or relating to an empire.

No, a paladin is basically what a police officer should be: he follows the rules where he can and tries to do good when he can.

Problem is you can't always do good and play by the rules.


Paladins get a lot of bad press because of players taking the Rectal Stick ACF and because of DMs who don't like having a "goody two shoes" in the party and make them fall.

I don't like them because they think playing by the rules is the best way to do good. It's not a question of the roleplayers themselves to me, or the DMs.


But that's not how they should be. A Paladin should be a shining light of hope in the setting. They should be the one that, no matter what, comes through or dies trying. A Paladin should be the purest expression of absolute Goodness this side of a freaking Solar. A well-played Paladin is incredible. I've seen it done beautifully. A campaign I was in last year had a Paladin in the party who we literally followed into hell and back. Because we trusted him and believed in him that much.

See, this is the kind of fluff that makes it really hard to take this seriously. Please stop either doing that or answering my posts. PLEASE.

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 09:28 PM
Both Wish and Miracle, at least according to the parameters set by the PhB, are incapable of doing something on that scale. Miracle can avert a natural-disaster scale event (earthquake, flood, tornado, etc.), but a dimension-obliterating event is well beyond that. Wish can effectively mimic True Resurrection. Bringing back an entire plane's worth of dead people is a much larger-scale task.

In fairness, though, the Good Gods probably WOULD allow you a pretty damn big favor in return for saving their sorry asses. But I still win the point I was trying to make, since you had to, at some point, commit an evil act even if the deed was reversed later.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-17, 09:29 PM
Concerning the artifact conundrum:

If I were playing the paladin, there would only be one option: destroy the artifact. Yes, all life on the material plane dies. But every mortal being is sent to their rightful afterlife. Good souls are off to their reward, while evil souls are sent down to their punishment (reward?).

As a paladin in that scenario, I wouldn't care what happened to my soul. If for some reason it was sent down to Hell, so be it. My soul being tortured for eternity is worth countless innocent souls' instant death and reward. The alternative: the lower planes conquer the multiverse. Billions of mortals are tortured, murdered, corrupted, and enslaved. There is no option, here. No decision to be made. The material plane would be flushed of all life; I would trust in the gods to remedy that situation in time. Life will find a way. Death is but a simple transition; all living things face it eventually. Every last mortal, every last person slain by this evil artifact, well, they would die eventually anyway. The artifact is evil because it cuts their lives' short. Worse, it kills evil souls before they get the chance to be redeemed. However, it does nothing that won't already happen in time. The destruction of the upper planes means the destruction of the concepts of good, hope, mercy, compassion, and justice. These ideals, these concepts should all mean more to a paladin than simple death.

So yes, destroy the artifact. The rest is up to the gods. They placed you there to prevent this great evil, to place the burden on your shoulders. A paladin trusts in their wisdom, in their justice, in their Good, in their Truth. Death is but a small price to pay for preventing an eternity of darkness.

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 09:33 PM
Concerning the artifact conundrum:

If I were playing the paladin, there would only be one option: destroy the artifact. Yes, all life on the material plane dies. But every mortal being is sent to their rightful afterlife. Good souls are off to their reward, while evil souls are sent down to their punishment (reward?).

As a paladin in that scenario, I wouldn't care what happened to my soul. If for some reason it was sent down to Hell, so be it. My soul being tortured for eternity is worth countless innocent souls' instant death and reward. The alternative: the lower planes conquer the multiverse. Billions of mortals are tortured, murdered, corrupted, and enslaved. There is no option, here. No decision to be made. The material plane would be flushed of all life; I would trust in the gods to remedy that situation in time. Life will find a way. Death is but a simple transition; all living things face it eventually. Every last mortal, every last person slain by this evil artifact, well, they would die eventually anyway. The artifact is evil because it cuts their lives' short. Worse, it kills evil souls before they get the chance to be redeemed. However, it does nothing that won't already happen in time. The destruction of the upper planes means the destruction of the concepts of good, hope, mercy, compassion, and justice. These ideals, these concepts should all mean more to a paladin than simple death.

So yes, destroy the artifact. The rest is up to the gods. They placed you there to prevent this great evil, to place the burden on your shoulders. A paladin trusts in their wisdom, in their justice, in their Good, in their Truth. Death is but a small price to pay for preventing an eternity of darkness.

See, THIS I agree with. It isn't an optimistic approach. It takes accepts a negative conseqence because the alternative is infinitely worse.

I don't dispute that a well played Paladin is a shining beacon of goodness. What I dispute is that an option always exists with no evil consequences. I think that's blind optimism. What DOES exist however, is a goal righteous enough that it is worth becoming evil over.

Kumo
2010-05-17, 09:33 PM
On topic:

"My strength is always on loan to the defenseless. And the fact that that is incredibly cheesy does not make it any less true!"

"My open hand shall reward the good... but let evil beware."

"I'm the type of warrior your archdevil warned you about."
"But i never trafficked with devils!"
"...I'll concede the point but not the battle!"

"My true [insert name of weapon here] is not this mundane tool; it is justice."

"I am [name]. Your evil will end by my [weapon]."

(flirt... sort of) "I'd like smite evil, with you in the moonlight..."

Most of those are changed up quotes from something else.

Malificus
2010-05-17, 11:03 PM
Consider this scenario; an artifact is going to irradicate the Higher Planes. The artifact is impossile to move from it's location or be destroyed, except by sacrificing yourself. However, even if you sacrifice yourself to destroy it, the backlash from it's destruction will still destroy all life on the Plane it's presently located on.

Name the third, non-evil option to solve this scenario.

Get a bag of holding, wrapping the artifact in it, thereby placing the artifact in a a non-dimension. Enter with it alone, so that no one else dies, and destroy the artifact.

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 11:05 PM
Get a bag of holding, wrapping the artifact in it, thereby placing the artifact in a a non-dimension. Enter with it alone, so that no one else dies, and destroy the artifact.

Impossible to move from it's present location. Bags of Holding are not of unlimited size and are incapable of enveloping the artifact.

Katana_Geldar
2010-05-17, 11:14 PM
We make a lot of jokes with Lay on Hands, whether Paladins can "touch themselves" or not. :smallwink:

Malificus
2010-05-17, 11:22 PM
Impossible to move from it's present location. I'm not. I'm just changing what surrounds it.


Bags of Holding are not of unlimited size and are incapable of enveloping the artifact.

Then use another method to change its location. Have a wizard make an abnormally large portable hole, then use the same method.

You could also use gate, lower a gate to hell on the device, close the gate behind you. and destroy it there.

Yukitsu
2010-05-17, 11:46 PM
Consider this scenario; an artifact is going to irradicate the Higher Planes. The artifact is impossile to move from it's location or be destroyed, except by sacrificing yourself. However, even if you sacrifice yourself to destroy it, the backlash from it's destruction will still destroy all life on the Plane it's presently located on.

Name the third, non-evil option to solve this scenario.

UMD a disjunction or 5. It takes the "except by" and tacks itself on to the end, artifact rules be damned. It also doesn't activate any BS backlash damage.

Tulio d Bard
2010-05-17, 11:47 PM
These are from a Cleric of Justice I'm playing, but it work as well:


Cleric: "I am the Hand of God¹, whether you hold me or fight me is your own choice..."
Enemy Fighter: *stands up and draws his sword*
Cleric: :smallsigh: "...it may also be your last one..." *smites*²

"Your time has come! Disintegrate!²"

"Whatever happens to you in the next few seconds will be totally fair, for I am Justice!"

*spends his single 5th-level spell to heal some peasants right before the final battle*
"You risked your lives protecting your children. You deserve some healing."

¹No one particularly, since she is a Cleric of Justice; it's also her Nom de guerre.
²She has the Destruction and Protection Domains.

Don Quixote: "What is sickness to a knight? Each time he falls he will rise again."

And also:
"...inside the circle of the table, under the holy sword, a knight must swear he will obey to the eternal code, eternal as the table, a ring bound to honour.
A knight is sworn to valor, his heart knows only virtue, his blade defends the helpless, his might upholds the weak, his word speaks only truth, his wrath undoes the wicked.
The right can never die, if a man still remembers him. Words are not forgotten, if a voice pronounce them clearly, The Code always shines, if a heart preserves it brightly...
The Old Code...."

Drakevarg
2010-05-17, 11:49 PM
I'm not. I'm just changing what surrounds it.



Then use another method to change its location. Have a wizard make an abnormally large portable hole, then use the same method.

You could also use gate, lower a gate to hell on the device, close the gate behind you. and destroy it there.

You do realize we're discussing a beyond-diety-level artifact here? It effectively tells the laws of physics, magic, perception, what have you, to go **** themselves. The device is impossible to move from it's present location (including via moving the location instead) by any means. Given what it's capable of doing, if it could be moved we wouldn't be having the debate because the Gods would have handled it themselves.


UMD a disjunction or 5. It takes the "except by" and tacks itself on to the end, artifact rules be damned. It also doesn't activate any BS backlash damage.

Function unalterable. It doesn't run on Artifact rules*, it runs on Aesoptonium. Again, beyond-diety-level artifact "thingy". If magic could fix it, it'd have been done already.

Also, where's Disjunction? It's not in my books.

*not that it matters, since Artifact rules can be summed up as "whatever the goddamned hell the DM decides they are."

Malificus
2010-05-18, 12:11 AM
Given what it's capable of doing, if it could be moved we wouldn't be having the debate because the Gods would have handled it themselves.
I just assumed they didn't do something themselves because it kills them. Heck, it kills them from an entirely different plane, why would they directly interact with it?

And why do you keep calling this moving it? I'm not moving it. I'm making it be somewhere else through other methods. But it obviously must have some manner of planar binding preventing such attempts. Whatever.

That pretty much brings it down to evacuation (a powerful enough person or a concerted group effort should be able move the rest of the plane elsewhere), surrounding the device with portals to redirect the bast to elsewhere, finding the person who made this to learn its secrets, and evacuation of the Higher Planes (easier as more inhabitants could help themselves).

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 12:20 AM
And why do you keep calling this moving it? I'm not moving it. I'm making it be somewhere else through other methods. But it obviously must have some manner of planar binding preventing such attempts. Whatever.

Very well, allow me to clarify; it cannot be "made to be somewhere else."


That pretty much brings it down to evacuation (a powerful enough person or a concerted group effort should be able move the rest of the plane elsewhere),

Possible. Practicalitly depends on how long you have.


surrounding the device with portals to redirect the bast to elsewhere,

Assuming it's a blast and not a "ctrl+alt+delete." Admittedly with the sacrificial backlash it's probably a blast. Of course, now you've just wiped out an entirely different plane.


finding the person who made this to learn its secrets,

Anyone capable of making such a device is probably not interested in talking and could unmake you with a thought.


and evacuation of the Higher Planes (easier as more inhabitants could help themselves).

The Higher Planes are canonically infinite in their population, if I recall. I doubt there's enough room in the multiverse to fit them all, except maybe the Lower Planes (and what fun that would be!).

Malificus
2010-05-18, 12:25 AM
Assuming it's a blast and not a "ctrl+alt+delete." Admittedly with the sacrificial backlash it's probably a blast. Of course, now you've just wiped out an entirely different plane.

Suck it Hell. I'd go for the Abyss, but that has some semi-good to good layers.


Anyone capable of making such a device is probably not interested in talking and could unmake you with a thought.
The point is trying to discover how to deactivate the device.


The Higher Planes are canonically infinite in their population, if I recall. I doubt there's enough room in the multiverse to fit them all, except maybe the Lower Planes (and what fun that would be!).

It's worth a shot. Maybe they just make new planes.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 12:30 AM
Suck it Hell. I'd go for the Abyss, but that has some semi-good to good layers.

Congratulations, you've just ended the Blood War. Now there's an infinite supply of Demons with nothing better to do but irradicate all life.


The point is trying to discover how to deactivate the device.

If they won't talk, or just delete you when you get there, it's not very helpful is it?


It's worth a shot. Maybe they just make new planes.

In a pinch, it could work. Again the practicality depends on how long until the device goes off, and moving an infinite population is noteably more difficult than moving a finite but still extremely large one.

((I'm not sure if this thought exercise is frusterating or entertaining. Magic being the inherent fun-ruiner that it is, several holes have been poked in this thing's operation, even with all the DM Fiat. :smalltongue:))

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 12:31 AM
Suck it Hell. I'd go for the Abyss, but that has some semi-good to good layers.

And then the demons overrun Celestia. There's a reason nobody wants to end the Blood War.

Edit: it's because they have demon ninjas. Damn.

Malificus
2010-05-18, 12:32 AM
Congratulations, you've just ended the Blood War. Now there's an infinite supply of Demons with nothing better to do but irradicate all life.

And an infinite amount of celestials with nothing better to do than kill demons.

Yukitsu
2010-05-18, 12:33 AM
Function unalterable. It doesn't run on Artifact rules*, it runs on Aesoptonium. Again, beyond-diety-level artifact "thingy". If magic could fix it, it'd have been done already.

Also, where's Disjunction? It's not in my books.

*not that it matters, since Artifact rules can be summed up as "whatever the goddamned hell the DM decides they are."

Meh. If it can take a mythal, it can take out a mere artifact made of fables. Plus, none of that artifacts can withstand disjunction 100% of the time, no matter how tough the DM wants to make it.

And DM's that try to teach you an aesop are solved with the thorough application of violence. Nothing is more annoying than a preachy DM, except a DMPC preaching the DMs views.

Disjunction is in the players handbook under Mordenkainen's disjunction.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 12:34 AM
And an infinite amount of celestials with nothing better to do than kill demons.

As utterly nonsensical as it is, canon pretty much states that if it came down to it, either Demons or Devils would easily curb stop the Higher Planes if they didn't have their opposite number to worry about.


Plus, none of that artifacts can withstand disjunction 100% of the time, no matter how tough the DM wants to make it.

Um, Rule #0. If a DM says something happened, nothing you can do will change that. Leaving the game works, I suppose. But the DM's ruling still stands.

*reads up on Disjunction*

...that is the most idiotic thing I've ever read. *writes it down on the list of "things houseruled out forever"* Artifacts run on plot. Game mechanics don't work on them.

Yukitsu
2010-05-18, 12:37 AM
Then basically it's a jerk DM, see violence.

Seriously, rule zeroing all solutions but ones that screw over the player or the player's ideals or both? DM's face, meet chair.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 12:38 AM
And an infinite amount of celestials with nothing better to do than kill demons.

I seem to remember someone using set theory to prove that there are more demons and that they would win, but I don't remember exactly.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 12:43 AM
Then basically it's a jerk DM, see violence.

Seriously, rule zeroing all solutions but ones that screw over the player or the player's ideals or both? DM's face, meet chair.

I'd rule zero out Disjunction in particular because it's a stupid spell that seems to be more of WotC's constant pampering of wizards. A spell that specifically allows you to overrule the DM? No.

Comparatively, Malificus's ideas (at least the ones I haven't shot down) actually have some merit, because they don't ignore the parameters of the scenario. Even if the do ignore the POINT of the scenario.

((To think of a solution myself, surround the object with portals to the Negative Energy Plane, then sacrifice myself. Nothing on the Negative Energy Plane worth keeping anyway.))

Malificus
2010-05-18, 12:46 AM
Even if the do ignore the POINT of the scenario.

I thought the point was I was a Paladin who refuses to take an evil route to do good, so I had to make a 3rd way to save everyone.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 12:47 AM
I thought the point was I was a Paladin who refuses to take an evil route to do good, so I had to make a 3rd way to save everyone.

...Touche. Though in my defense, would you be able to figure out the same solution while under pressure, with a time limit, and only one chance?

Malificus
2010-05-18, 12:53 AM
...Touche. Though in my defense, would you be able to figure out the same solution while under pressure, with a time limit, and only one chance?

Apparently not, as my first solution was the bag of holding. Now, if I had about an hour or two of finding out that I can't bag of holding it (or otherwise move a portal around it), then I totally would be able to come up with the "portal box of destroying a more evil plane".

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 12:59 AM
Apparently not, as my first solution was the bag of holding. Now, if I had about an hour or two of finding out that I can't bag of holding it (or otherwise move a portal around it), then I totally would be able to come up with the "portal box of destroying a more evil plane".

Fair enough. I will cede that there is more often than not a non-evil solution to your problems. Will they be obvious or practical? Not nessicarily. But they'll probably exist.

But if you have access to the nigh-omnipotent required to make a device like this, and you can't come up with a no-win situation, you're simply not trying hard enough. (I came up with this off the top of my head.)

Kris Strife
2010-05-18, 01:35 AM
Bag of Holding + Portable Hole in which ever combination creates the 'sucks everything in X feet onto the astral plane' effect, disable it there. All you killed was some Gith, some 'dead' gods and wizards going for infinite life spans without lich-dom. :smallamused:

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 01:40 AM
Bag of Holding + Portable Hole in which ever combination creates the 'sucks everything in X feet onto the astral plane' effect, disable it there. All you killed was some Gith, some 'dead' gods and wizards going for infinite life spans without lich-dom. :smallamused:

The device is incapable of being moved, or "being made to be somewhere else". It is where it is and nothin's gonna change that.

Besides, Portal Box redircting blast to the Negative Energy Plane works fine. (Assuming you have access to enough portals to create an omnidirectional containment field.)

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 02:00 AM
This is of course assuming it's a blast and not some magic effect that simply strikes everybody on the plane dead.

Heliomance
2010-05-18, 02:25 AM
Seriously, the situation is nonsensical. Congratulations, you have managed to find an unwinnable scenario, produced by the DM being a jerkwad, pulling an artifact that couldn't be made by anyone that would care enough to make it out of his backside, and saying "screw you plot consistency, and your little Paladin too."


See, this is the kind of fluff that makes it really hard to take this seriously. Please stop either doing that or answering my posts. PLEASE.Why on earth does that fluff make it hard for you to take me seriously? I'm going to go ahead and assume you've never seen a really well-played Paladin. And you better believe our DM didn't make it easy on him. There were some really tough calls he had to make.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-18, 02:36 AM
Fair enough. I will cede that there is more often than not a non-evil solution to your problems. Will they be obvious or practical? Not nessicarily. But they'll probably exist.

But if you have access to the nigh-omnipotent required to make a device like this, and you can't come up with a no-win situation, you're simply not trying hard enough. (I came up with this off the top of my head.)

Sure, but after you came up with it, you had to keep adding additional stipulations to shut down people's otherwise-rules-legal solutions to the 'unwinnable dilemna'.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-18, 03:36 AM
Just a question, Psycho: how do you manage to dodge all the books players start to throw at you?

Kumo
2010-05-18, 06:42 AM
Why on earth does that fluff make it hard for you to take me seriously? I'm going to go ahead and assume you've never seen a really well-played Paladin. And you better believe our DM didn't make it easy on him. There were some really tough calls he had to make.

Because it's FLUFF. it doesn't show whether or not a paladin is the best kind of good there can be (grammar fail :smalltongue:) but simply expounges on it. I refuse to pay attention to fluff because it makes you look like a drooling fanboy.

No offense.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 07:02 AM
Is a paladin good? yes, a hundred times yes (unless that paladin is being lawful good in as much of an ******* way as he can, but on the whole, yes, they're good.)

Are they the epitome of good? No. Sorry, they just aren't.D'oh. The epitome of Good would be neutral good. That's just pure, unadulterated goody goodness.

Paladins are supposed to be the epitome of Lawful Good.

Fitz10019
2010-05-18, 08:09 AM
You do realize we're discussing a beyond-diety-level artifact here?

You do realize you lot should should have moved to a new thread? It's really bad form to take an active thread and push it into the doomed avenue of what-constitutes-falling.

Paladin sayings:
I see your evil, and raise my [weapon of choice].
I'll be the judge of that... and the jury, executioner, stenographer, opposing counsel, Rusty...

Greenish
2010-05-18, 08:16 AM
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street for all the people to see
that

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line

It's a paladin song! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azESmq6KENQ)

The Glyphstone
2010-05-18, 08:37 AM
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street for all the people to see
that

Justice is the one thing you should always find
You got to saddle up your boys
You got to draw a hard line

It's a paladin song! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azESmq6KENQ)

And when the smokesticks settle
We'll sing a victory tune
And we'll all kick back at the local saloon tavern.


Love that song, though I don't know if it's appropriate for a typical Paladin. Definitely a Greyguard, but the overall theme is a bit too vigilante.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-18, 08:59 AM
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1064/1254263613800.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/1254263613800.jpg/)

Hard to use, but SO worth it.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 09:16 AM
Love that song, though I don't know if it's appropriate for a typical Paladin. Definitely a Greyguard, but the overall theme is a bit too vigilante.Perhaps not the most typical paladin, but I could see even LG paladin being played with the cowboy twist. Greyguards are awesome though.

hamishspence
2010-05-18, 09:21 AM
Faiths & Pantheons, in the section on the deity Tyr (god of justice) does suggest that in the wilder parts of Faerun, it may be necessary for a paladin to be judge, jury, and executioner.

DMG2 suggests that if a writ of outlawry is passed on certain villains, its OK for the adventurers to go out and kill those villains- since they've already had their trial.

Heliomance
2010-05-18, 10:05 AM
It's been mentioned already, but for those that didn't go and watch the video I'll requote Don Quixote.

"And the world will be better for this
That one man, worn and covered in scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star

This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far
To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause!"

Malificus
2010-05-18, 10:11 AM
It's been mentioned already, but for those that didn't go and watch the video I'll requote Don Quixote.

"And the world will be better for this
That one man, worn and covered in scars
Still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable star

This is my quest
To follow that star
No matter how hopeless
No matter how far
To fight for the right
Without question or pause
To be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause!"

I personally like his introduction more.

Hear me now
Oh thou bleak and unbearable world,
Thou art base and debauched as can be;
And a knight with his banners all bravely unfurled
Now hurls down his gauntlet to thee!

I am I, Don Quixote,
The Lord of La Mancha, �
My destiny calls and I go,
And the wild winds of fortune
Will carry me onward,
Oh whithersoever they blow.
Whithersoever they blow,
Onward to glory I go!

Hear me, heathens and wizards
And serpents of sin!
All your dastardly doings are past,
For a holy endeavor is now to begin
And virtue shall triumph at last!

Heliomance
2010-05-18, 11:03 AM
I am I, Don Quixote, the Lord of La Mancha
Destroyer of evil am I
I will march to the sound of the trumpets of glory
Forever to conquer or die!

WorstDMEver
2010-05-18, 11:15 AM
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

shamelessly stolen from Pulp Fiction.

Where it was quoted from the Bible - and I'd have to watch it again to get chapter and verse... I'm not religious at all.

Taelas
2010-05-18, 11:22 AM
An easy way to remember what exactly lawful means is to instead of using the word lawful in your head, use the word biased.

Is your character biased towards her or her alignment, are they neutral about how they view others or do they just act the way they do under no specific guidance?

Personally I believe that a Chaotic Good individual is the truest form of good (being good for the sake of being good) but lawful good is the truest ACTING goodness, but are only good out of their own bias.

Sorry, but no. This is wrong.

A Chaotic person is just as "biased" as a Lawful person, simply in a different way.

The truest form of good is Neutral Good, for they focus on Good before anything else. (Yes, a paladin is Good before he is Lawful, but he is Lawful.) A Chaotic Good person would balk at doing a Lawful act for a Good end, as would a Lawful Good person balk at doing a Chaotic act for a Good end. A Neutral Good person, however, wouldn't hesitate to do either.

There's a reason why all the "Neutral" alignments were sometimes called "True" instead.

LibraryOgre
2010-05-18, 12:02 PM
There's a reason why all the "Neutral" alignments were sometimes called "True" instead.

Never run into NG being called "True Good" in any official source. Got a cite?

The thing is, your point of view is essentially the core of the Blood War... LE holding that THEY are the true embodiment of Evil, while CE holds that they are. One of the points of the Blood War is that they are both WRONG, nor would the hags of the Grey Waste be right if they say THEY are the true embodiment of evil.

Evil IS. Good IS. Law and chaos are means to those ends; neither their presence or their absence affects the purity of Good or Evil. Someone who is Neutral Good can just as easily be a lackluster good as someone who is Lawful Good... either their apathy or indecisiveness (both aspects of neutrality) keeping them from being as Good as they could be, while the Lawful Good person may lose the shine of their Good by overt infatuation with their methods.

Ok, I'll continue later. Lunchtime.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 12:07 PM
There's a reason why all the "Neutral" alignments were sometimes called "True" instead.The only neutral alignment I've heard of referred as True would be True Neutral.

Ormagoden
2010-05-18, 12:21 PM
"None shall tread upon the innocent!"

"I'll send your tainted soul to eternity."

"Your wickedness has sown seed which I must now reap!"

"I am the judgment of the fallen."

"I am the tender of wounds, shield of the meek, and the sword of justice!"

"Nobody steps on a church in my town!"

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-18, 12:25 PM
“Demon, I want you to understand that this isn’t a magic sword. This is just a slab of metal that someone heated up and beat a point and an edge into with a hammer. It’s steel…not mithril, adamantite, or some other fanciful material…just good, plain, man-made steel. I want you to understand this because I’m going to end you with this. I want you to fully realize the fact that the only thing that grants me the power to sheer your damned head off your shoulders is the strength of my right arm and the strength of my faith.”

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 12:28 PM
“Demon, I want you to understand that this isn’t a magic sword. This is just a slab of metal that someone heated up and beat a point and an edge into with a hammer. It’s steel…not mithril, adamantite, or some other fanciful material…just good, plain, man-made steel. I want you to understand this because I’m going to end you with this. I want you to fully realize the fact that the only thing that grants me the power to sheer your damned head off your shoulders is the strength of my right arm and the strength of my faith.”

.........I have to buy a mundane sword just to use this line.

and to Acromos. Sorry if I went overboard. I've just been feeling stressed for absolutely no reason lately.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-18, 12:31 PM
.........I have to buy a mundane sword just to use this line.

and to Acromos. Sorry if I went overboard. I've just been feeling stressed for absolutely no reason lately.

I have a paladin who is carrying one around just for that reason if they encounter a certain demon again.

Granted, he has a dip in crusader so I have a few "can-opener" maneuvers that bypass DR, but it still counts!

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 12:46 PM
I have a paladin who is carrying one around just for that reason if they encounter a certain demon again.

Granted, he has a dip in crusader so I have a few "can-opener" maneuvers that bypass DR, but it still counts!

Of course it counts. If I'm using smite evils that bypass all forms of DR on evil people that can be bypassed by a certain kind of material or damage then your maneuvers count too. Especially since my smites are usable once per encounter as well.

I've got a homebrew Paladin. He's fun to play.

Yukitsu
2010-05-18, 12:58 PM
Currently playing a really wierd paladin. Worships the elven Gods of law and death, and the elven God of wild parties. Bsns is always fr srs bsns, but fun is fun. However, when an encounter isn't evil, or if an evil encounter is weak enough, he'll act like it's serious business, but talk like it's fun. So you get lines like:

"Every inch of my body was forged by the elven Gods as their holy weapons against evil. Just because I've lost my sword doesn't mean I can't smite you straight back to the abyss. In fact, I could pull out my massive tool and smite you with that if I really wanted to and frankly, Correlon wouldn't have given me a two handed weapon if I wasn't supposed to use it." (Fighting a succubus)

"My holy mission is the rebuild the shattered elven populace so I've been rather busy at nights. So I haven't caught your bread thief, and I don't really care to."

"I don't care that your law lets you enslave humans and keep them as pets. Any more than you care that my personal code of conduct lets me create long distractions that let me whisk the guy away while you're destracted by my sheer audacity." *beholder checks to see if the prisoner is gone, when he looks down, I kick it in the eye, grab the guy and run.* "Sigh. Why can't I ever be saving damsels in distress."

LibraryOgre
2010-05-18, 01:19 PM
Never run into NG being called "True Good" in any official source. Got a cite?

The thing is, your point of view is essentially the core of the Blood War... LE holding that THEY are the true embodiment of Evil, while CE holds that they are. One of the points of the Blood War is that they are both WRONG, nor would the hags of the Grey Waste be right if they say THEY are the true embodiment of evil.

Evil IS. Good IS. Law and chaos are means to those ends; neither their presence or their absence affects the purity of Good or Evil. Someone who is Neutral Good can just as easily be a lackluster good as someone who is Lawful Good... either their apathy or indecisiveness (both aspects of neutrality) keeping them from being as Good as they could be, while the Lawful Good person may lose the shine of their Good by overt infatuation with their methods.

Ok, I'll continue later. Lunchtime.

Ok, done with lunch. Lunch was good.

However, back to Good and Evil. An overt fixation on Law or Chaos reduces your Good or Evil... but a dedication to being neither does, as well. The Blood War actually decreases the evil that both can do, because they are fighting over methods.

urbanpirate
2010-05-18, 01:19 PM
"anyone got a can opener?"
"I've fallen and i can't get up"
"sorry I'm late i was...... err ....polishing ..my codpiece"
:smallbiggrin:

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 01:52 PM
However, back to Good and Evil. An overt fixation on Law or Chaos reduces your Good or Evil... but a dedication to being neither does, as well. The Blood War actually decreases the evil that both can do, because they are fighting over methods.

Alignment should not define your character. Your character should define its alignment. Demons are different, because they're actually embodiments of their alignment (and even then, there's rare exceptions), but a character truly devoted to good will shift between Law/Neutral/Chaos as necessary, regardless of what's written on their character sheet.

Gods, I hate alignment.

Gauntlet
2010-05-18, 01:58 PM
“If I were a proper brother-captain, I would know the prayer we are supposed to say. But I think you all know what we have to do. We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy – the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember. We will hurt it so badly that it will never forget us until the stars burn out and the Emperor vanquishes it at the end of time. When Chaos is dying, its last thought will be of us. That is our memorial – carved into the heart of Chaos. We cannot lose, Grey Knights. We have already won.”

It's 40K specific, but I'm sure if could be converted.

Tulio d Bard
2010-05-18, 02:07 PM
.........I have to buy a mundane sword just to use this line.


Totally.


"Every inch of my body was forged by the elven Gods as their holy weapons against evil. Just because I've lost my sword doesn't mean I can't smite you straight back to the abyss. In fact, I could pull out my massive tool and smite you with that if I really wanted to and frankly, Correlon wouldn't have given me a two handed weapon if I wasn't supposed to use it." (Fighting a succubus)


Oh God, THAT was funny! :smallbiggrin:
I can't even imagine what the succubus thought of that.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-18, 02:17 PM
It's 40K specific, but I'm sure if could be converted.

Well, my loved/hated grey knight (chaos player) are maybe the closer thing to a paladin in warhammer 40k (even if we could discuss years about alignment in the setting I guess).

IMO is fitting.

Taelas
2010-05-18, 02:53 PM
Evil Option 1: Even if the Higher Planes are at risk, you can't be directly responsible for the death of everyone on this Plane. Do nothing and allow the Higher Planes to be destroyed. You've now allowed an infinte supply of Good-Aligned beings to be erradicated. You're Evil.
You are not directly responsible. Even if the Higher Planes are destroyed if the artifact isn't stopped, that is not your fault. Only the being who created the artifact is responsible.

Also, "inaction" is Neutral. Always. Not saving a damsel in distress? Neutral. Not reaching down to pull a man hanging off a cliff face? Neutral. You do not involve yourself in the situation, thus you are as unaffected (strictly alignment-wise) as anyone else who does not involve themselves.


Evil Option 2: Even if this plane is destroyed, it's population pales in comparison to that of the Higher Planes. Sacrifice yourself. You've now murdered billions of sentient beings. You're Evil.
This is completely absurd. Overall, it is not an Evil act to sacrifice yourself (even if you also sacrifice untold millions of people in the process) if you do so to save an even greater number of people. The Evil part of the act (destroying untold millions) pales in comparison to the Good part of the act (sacrificing yourself to save untold billions).

A paladin can do the first of your two options without falling; he cannot do the second.


Never run into NG being called "True Good" in any official source. Got a cite?
Unfortunately not, but wherever I got it from, it stuck. Doing a Google search on "True Good" + alignment turns up the phrase, but not the source.


The thing is, your point of view is essentially the core of the Blood War... LE holding that THEY are the true embodiment of Evil, while CE holds that they are. One of the points of the Blood War is that they are both WRONG, nor would the hags of the Grey Waste be right if they say THEY are the true embodiment of evil.

Evil IS. Good IS. Law and chaos are means to those ends; neither their presence or their absence affects the purity of Good or Evil. Someone who is Neutral Good can just as easily be a lackluster good as someone who is Lawful Good... either their apathy or indecisiveness (both aspects of neutrality) keeping them from being as Good as they could be, while the Lawful Good person may lose the shine of their Good by overt infatuation with their methods.
Whenever there is a conflict between Good and Law, a Lawful Good person becomes a lesser force for Good than a Neutral or Chaotic Good person. The same thing applies to conflicts between Good and Chaos. Neutral Good characters have a greater capacity for Good because they do not have the additional focus of Law or Chaos.

Yes, a Lawful Good person can be a more Good person than a Neutral Good person, but I am speaking in general terms, not individual. Ignoring everything else, focusing on Good alone is stronger along that axis than focusing on both Law and Good.

Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are all separate forces. Aspects of them overlap, which are the extreme alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE), but they are weaker for it.

The best way to visually represent alignment is with a geometric shape, in my opinion.

Like this sketch:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6941/alignmentgrid.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/alignmentgrid.jpg/)

(Red is LG, blue is NG, green is TN, gray is NE.) The philosophical ideals is the degrees of the circle, while the strength of each ideal is represented by moving along an axis along said degree. The shape that appears is because there are multiple points, as each point is anything that would affect the person's alignment. My sketch is excessively simple, really.

The participants in the Blood War holds their ideal as the true form of Evil, yes, but that is because they only want their form of Evil -- Lawful or Chaotic. Put in another way, they are not fighting over the level of Evil, but the type.


However, back to Good and Evil. An overt fixation on Law or Chaos reduces your Good or Evil...
Precisely.


but a dedication to being neither does, as well.
The dedication is not towards being neither Lawful or Chaotic. The dedication is towards being Good. A Lawful Good person will do things that overlap with LN and NG aspects, whereas a CG person will overlap with CN and NG. (They also overlap with the other alignments, even the polar opposites, because people are not two-dimensional, but it is far, far less, and so rather meaningless in this context.) A Neutral Good person will overlap with LG and CG.

Yes, it is possible to have a NG person who is adamantly Neutral on the Law-Chaos axis, and refuses to do either extreme, but that is a very narrow niche, and in my opinion, a rather two-dimensional character.


The Blood War actually decreases the evil that both can do, because they are fighting over methods.
I don't see what that has to do with anything. :smallconfused:

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 03:01 PM
Sure, but after you came up with it, you had to keep adding additional stipulations to shut down people's otherwise-rules-legal solutions to the 'unwinnable dilemna'.

Well, more like clarified. Unfortuneately the way magic works exact wording is annoyingly nessicary.

-Can't be moved. --> "Move portal over it." --> Can't be made to be elsewhere.
-"Disjunction" --> Disjunction allows players to override artifacts, which run on plot. I'd houserule it out of existance if I knew about it anyway, even without the device to think about.
-Kills everyone on the plane in the case of self-sacrifice. --> "Evacuate plane." --> Possible, but might be impractical if you only have a few rounds to do it.
-Destroys Higher Planes if left alone. --> "Evacuate Higher Planes." --> Again possible, but almost certaintly impractical given the population of the Higher Planes.
-"Portal Box to contain sacrifice backlash." --> Would work, but now you've killed another plane. Still Evil. --> "Destroy Hell." --> Ended the Blood War, rest of the cosmos is doomed. --> "Destroy Negative Energy Plane." --> Only wraiths and the like there anway, you win.

Ninja'd.


You are not directly responsible. Even if the Higher Planes are destroyed if the artifact isn't stopped, that is not your fault. Only the being who created the artifact is responsible.

Also, "inaction" is Neutral. Always. Not saving a damsel in distress? Neutral. Not reaching down to pull a man hanging off a cliff face? Neutral. You do not involve yourself in the situation, thus you are as unaffected (strictly alignment-wise) as anyone else who does not involve themselves.

A DM could easily rule that your refusal to act made you Neutral. Or even Evil for willingly allowing the death of billions. You still fall.


This is completely absurd. Overall, it is not an Evil act to sacrifice yourself (even if you also sacrifice untold millions of people in the process) if you do so to save an even greater number of people. The Evil part of the act (destroying untold millions) pales in comparison to the Good part of the act (sacrificing yourself to save untold billions).

A paladin can do the first of your two options without falling; he cannot do the second.

Doesn't matter if it pales in comparison. The point of the arguement is that there is not always an option utterly devoid of Evil consequences.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 03:01 PM
Okay, I have a request.

Can you guys take this to a different thread please? It's very off topic.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 03:03 PM
Also, "inaction" is Neutral. Always. Not saving a damsel in distress? Neutral. Not reaching down to pull a man hanging off a cliff face? Neutral. You do not involve yourself in the situation, thus you are as unaffected (strictly alignment-wise) as anyone else who does not involve themselves.You're already involved when you saw the man hanging there. Leaving him to fall would be evil.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 03:06 PM
Okay, I have a request.

Can you guys take this to a different thread please? It's very off topic.

In a way, it's tangently related since it involves Paladins.

On the other hand, I'm trying to draw the convo to a close as it is. They beat the device two pages ago.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 03:07 PM
You're already involved when you saw the man hanging there. Leaving him to fall would be evil.

Think Asimov's Three Laws:

A robot cannot harm a human being or, through inaction, cause a human being to come to harm.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-18, 03:07 PM
Okay, I have a request.

Can you guys take this to a different thread please? It's very off topic.

Can I make an additional request?

Please don't provide illustrations for your arguments about alignments. It makes me sad about being a nerd :(

(and mirroring Kyuubi's request, guys...not every thread with the word "paladin" in it needs to turn into an alignment debate, does it?)

Greenish
2010-05-18, 03:13 PM
(and mirroring Kyuubi's request, guys...not every thread with the word "paladin" in it needs to turn into an alignment debate, does it?)Yes, it does. Thus has been written! :smalltongue:

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 03:13 PM
Can I make an additional request?

Please don't provide illustrations for your arguments about alignments. It makes me sad about being a nerd :(

(and mirroring Kyuubi's request, guys...not every thread with the word "paladin" in it needs to turn into an alignment debate, does it?)

We should request a stickied alignment debate thread. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 03:16 PM
Alignment threads. Because questions that have been baffling philosophers for Millenia are going to be solved on a board about video games, Tabletop RPGs and Children's card games!

I hope nobody's offended by this. I just mean it as a joke.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-18, 03:16 PM
We should request a stickied alignment debate thread. :smalltongue:

Oh good glory sweet dancing angels no.

(...could that count as a possible paladin quote?)

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 03:17 PM
Oh good glory sweet dancing angels no.

(...could that count as a possible paladin quote?)

Yes. Yes it could.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 03:18 PM
Alignment threads. Because questions that have been baffling philosophers for Millenia are going to be solved on a board about video games, Tabletop RPGs and Children's card games!

I hope nobody's offended by this. I just mean it as a joke.

Armchair philosophers are going to armchair philosophicate. It's what we do.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 03:20 PM
Armchair philosophers are going to armchair philosophicate. It's what we do.

That's fine. Could you please take it to a different thread however?

Greenish
2010-05-18, 03:20 PM
Alignment threads. Because questions that have been baffling philosophers for Millenia are going to be solved on a board about video games, Tabletop RPGs and Children's card games!Damn, won't the philosophers feel silly!

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 03:22 PM
Damn, won't the philosophers feel silly!

I lol'd.:smallbiggrin:

LibraryOgre
2010-05-18, 03:24 PM
Alignment should not define your character. Your character should define its alignment. Demons are different, because they're actually embodiments of their alignment (and even then, there's rare exceptions), but a character truly devoted to good will shift between Law/Neutral/Chaos as necessary, regardless of what's written on their character sheet.

Yes and no. While your character's actions do define their alignments, your alignment does, in part, define your character. It is a part of the definition of your character, whether he is good or evil, lawful or chaotic in his actions. If you have a character who defines himself as good (a Paladin), he should spend time thinking about what IS good.



Also, "inaction" is Neutral. Always. Not saving a damsel in distress? Neutral. Not reaching down to pull a man hanging off a cliff face? Neutral. You do not involve yourself in the situation, thus you are as unaffected (strictly alignment-wise) as anyone else who does not involve themselves.

"All that is needed for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing." Not saving a damsel in distress, or helping someone clinging to a cliff face is not always evil... you may simply be incapable of doing so. But, by your "always", not moving your free and capable arm three inches to push a button that will keep a group of orphans from being gassed is "neutral."



Unfortunately not, but wherever I got it from, it stuck. Doing a Google search on "True Good" + alignment turns up the phrase, but not the source.

Because, to the best of my knowledge, it has no official source. A lot of people use it, but it's not part of the defined cosmology, nor the definition of Neutral Good.



Whenever there is a conflict between Good and Law, a Lawful Good person becomes a lesser force for Good than a Neutral or Chaotic Good person. The same thing applies to conflicts between Good and Chaos. Neutral Good characters have a greater capacity for Good because they do not have the additional focus of Law or Chaos.

Unless, of course, there is a conflict between Law and Chaos in the service of good. Do you try to overthrow a tyrannical government, or do you work from within to fix things? Law and Chaos will both CHOOSE. Neutral runs into the same ethical delimma of someone having to choose between good and law, or good and chaos.


Yes, a Lawful Good person can be a more Good person than a Neutral Good person, but I am speaking in general terms, not individual. Ignoring everything else, focusing on Good alone is stronger along that axis than focusing on both Law and Good.

And seeking balance between them... Neutrality... is the same issue, when there is a conflict between Law and Chaos.n Because Law and Chaos are forces, you cannot ignore them, any more than you can ignore Good and Evil. Neutrality is the position that strikes a balance between them, not the absence of them. A NG person doesn't refuse to take part in the Law and Chaos debate... he's someone who is committed to the line between them of them.

LibraryOgre
2010-05-18, 03:26 PM
Alignment threads. Because questions that have been baffling philosophers for Millenia are going to be solved on a board about video games, Tabletop RPGs and Children's card games!

Truthfully, philosophy plays little part in this, because it's very difficult to make definitions of Law, Chaos, Evil and Good that are universally accepted in the real world... while they simply ARE in D&D.

Drakevarg
2010-05-18, 03:26 PM
Continue unrelated alignment bickery over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8517194#post8517194), please.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-18, 03:43 PM
Damn, won't the philosophers feel silly!

“Wait, I don’t get it, Aristotle. My drinking that hemlock was chaotic evil?”
“Yep.”
“Why?”
“Hold on, when that guy at the comic book shop told me, it made perfect sense.”


On Paladins and Lawfulness:

“You think I act the way I do because of my allegiance to my god. That makes you the fool. Many are called to the service, but not all choose to follow it. It is not my duty I do here. This is not something I have to do. It is something I choose to do. You claim that I am bound by laws and restrictions. I claim that I am more free than I have ever been before. After all, what greater freedom can a man ask for than to choose his own destiny?”

Traveler
2010-05-18, 04:50 PM
"Repent... or I'll kill you."

Kumo
2010-05-18, 04:59 PM
D'oh. The epitome of Good would be neutral good. That's just pure, unadulterated goody goodness.

That would depend on where the neutral went, tbh.


Paladins are supposed to be the epitome of Lawful Good.

Ok, i'll concede that.

I played an elf for a while that worshipped the god of Darkness, Peace, and Murder. (Spec ops or Assassination for short) Some of the quotes are close enough to be a paladin...

"Justice comes for you."

"Blood for blood!"

"A cop? Don't be ridiculous. I'm not going to arrest you against your will. I'm going to ask you politely to be arrested, and if you say no, i'm gonna slice your head off."

Heliomance
2010-05-18, 05:30 PM
Where it was quoted from the Bible - and I'd have to watch it again to get chapter and verse... I'm not religious at all.

No, where it was shamelessly misquoted from the Bible. I think there's three or four different passages mishmashed up in there, with a healthy dollop of his own imagination.

Yukitsu
2010-05-18, 05:40 PM
Oh God, THAT was funny! :smallbiggrin:
I can't even imagine what the succubus thought of that.

Well, it was redeemed for some reason after it ran away from the combat. Something about it having seen the light. >_>

Kumo
2010-05-18, 06:54 PM
Alignment threads. Because questions that have been baffling philosophers for Millenia are going to be solved on a board about video games, Tabletop RPGs and Children's card games!

I hope nobody's offended by this. I just mean it as a joke.

Well, you know what they say. "The last time may be the fourth or the four hundredth, whether it is done by an idiot or a genius."

........

ok i just made that up but you get the point :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 07:26 PM
"Through blackest day, through darkest night, no evil shall escape my sight!"

Come on, for a Paladin of Pelor? It's a shoe-in.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 07:29 PM
"Through blackest day, through darkest night, no evil shall escape my sight!"

Come on, for a Paladin of Pelor? It's a shoe-in.

Well, I'm a Paladin of Bahamut. Me and Pelor actually have a few problems in game.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 07:51 PM
Well, I'm a Paladin of Bahamut. Me and Pelor actually have a few problems in game.

It's still solid for Paladin of Bahamut... although you might get into a lot of trouble if you wear green scales...

Fayd
2010-05-18, 09:57 PM
Perhaps this might work for you:

"Whatever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will never wander so far from the light that you can never return."

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 10:00 PM
"Whatever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will never wander so far from the light that you can never return."

Oooh. I like this one. Okay, putting all the ones (excluding that one) into a spoiler. If you refuse to seek repentance in this life, then I pray you seek it in the next. May the pain of my blade remind you of this."

"The breath of the Lord of the North Wind will guide you."
"We all make mistakes. If you say that you've never flubbed once, then you're a liar. I too have made mistakes, done deeds that I regret. Don't call me perfect, or infallible, because I'm not. Nobody is.

But the important thing is what happens after? Do we keep going, or do we just give up, give in to our baser whims?

Me, when I fall off my horse, I get back up and try again. And I never allow myself to forget my mistakes. That way, I can learn from them, grow from them. That's what a paladin does. I try my best, and when I mess up, I try again, and try harder than before.

What about you?"
________________

“You are standing between me and my injured friends. Remove yourself or I will remove you.”

"Repent your evil ways and you will not be harmed."
"Keep your sense of humor and perspective. Nothing drives people away from right behavior than seeing its champions being jerkwads with sticks up their bums, and nothing kills paladins faster than biting off more than they can chew. Do not ignore evil... but don't sacrifice yourself to it if it solves nothing. Mark it, monitor it, and bide your time. You are immune to fear, not sense."

Life is but the vessel for the soul; safeguard it, guide it, but do not covet it. Fear of death is what drives men to evil, and to accept the inevitability of death is to ignore the temptations of a false life.

“I have offered you an amnesty…a chance to escape with your life and your honor intact. If I see that hand stray towards the hilt of your sword one more time, we may consider that amnesty broken and may my deity forgive me for doing what I think is right.”

"There is no being so evil that the Light of Bahamut cannot reach them and raise them up."

"I pray you find the redemption in death that you spurned here in life."

"The Holy Flames/light of Bahamut will cleanse you!"

"There is still good in you! I can feel it. It's not too late to turn back."

"I cannot allow your evil to continue. Please don't do this. You have the power to end your evil without bloodshed. *draw sword* I don't."

"Do not confuse your honor with your pride. One can be sacrificed, the other will require sacrifice."

"You can be redeemed. If you strike me down, know that I will blaze a trail to Heaven for you and I pray that you will someday join me there. There is no one so vile that they cannot be cleansed in His Light."

"The pain of your flesh is fleeting, but the light of your soul will shine forever. Trust in the Light and be not afraid!"

"All they can do is take our lives! What is one lifetime compared to an Eternity in the Light? Take heart and know that this Darkness before us is but the blink of an eye before we are illuminated forever!"

"With every foul deed, you forge the chains link by link that drag your soul down into Darkness. Let go of your hatred and be free to rise to the Light!"

For intelligent corporeal undead:
"You have not cheated death. This flesh is a prison for your soul! You have robbed yourself of the Light and locked your soul in Darkness. Let go of your fear and pass through the door. The Light is waiting for you on the other side if you will only seek it out!"

"In all honesty, society is quite corrupted, whenever people see bad things happening, they will turn their faces to the side, they're all selfish and cowardly, and if given a choice, they will choose the side that's wining, and let's accept it, that is seldom the good side. I know this, I've seen this, I've been like this. And that's why I stand, that's why I bleed, because I was once a selfish coward, but I am no longer that, because I know people can change, I know they can achieve great and wonderfull things when they commit themselves to it, and that alone is worth fighting.
So, for you to know, you're not bleeding your guts out for a bunch of people because they are worthy, you are bleeding your guts out for the hope that one day those people will be worthy of the sacrifice of idealistic men and women like you"

"Drink, wealth, women - none are the province of fiends alone. Worldly pleasures must be moderated, but they need not be forsaken; he who isolates himself from the world forgets why it needs to be saved."

A Paladin is sworn to valor;
His heart knows only virtue;
His blade defends the helpless;
His might upholds the weak;
His word speaks only truth;
His wrath undoes the wicked

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 10:15 PM
I played an elf for a while that worshipped a made up panther god of Darkness, Peace, and Murder. (Spec ops or Assassination for short) Some of the quotes are close enough to be a paladin...

"Justice comes for you."

"Blood for blood!"

""

Uh, I think you've already posted this.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 10:17 PM
"Blood for the bloodgod!"There, much better.

Kumo
2010-05-18, 10:20 PM
Uh, I think you've already posted this.

Oh yeah... my bad, deleting.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 10:22 PM
Oh yeah... my bad, deleting.

No problem.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 10:26 PM
"I will not sacrifice myself for the Greater Good, because it will then deprive the forces of good of a valuable and trained soldier. My intent, foul being, is to force you to make that decision..."

waterpenguin43
2010-05-18, 10:34 PM
For your garden variety paladin:
"My blade is not my anger. It is the anger of your past, for time itself detests evil."

Elemental themed:
Earth:
"The power of the earth has manifested in my blade, and it shall tower above evil like a mountain."

Air:
"I pay evil the fate a hurricane hands to a tree. I shall tear it out of it's lair and effortlessly toss it away."

Fire:
"Burn under my righteous anger, sinner!"

Water:
"My soul is like water, pure and clean. I vow to crash down on evil like a wave."

Kumo
2010-05-18, 10:35 PM
"I do not intend to destroy you, i intend to destroy evil. Unfortunately for you it happens to be lodged in your being and you won't give it up."

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 10:38 PM
For your garden variety paladin:
"My blade is not my anger. It is the anger of your past, for time itself detests evil."

Air:
"I pay evil the fate a hurricane hands to a tree. I shall tear it out of it's lair and effortlessly toss it away."

Water:
"My soul is like water, pure and clean. I vow to crash down on evil like a wave."


"I do not intend to destroy you, i intend to destroy evil. Unfortunately for you it happens to be lodged in your being and you won't give it up."

I like these.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-19, 08:20 AM
"Repent... or I'll kill you."

I'm linking this quote not because of the quote, but because this person has sigged something from a thread of mine that could work for your needs as well. It's my own personal RP Crowning Moment of Awesome.

EDIT: Actual thread : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150139

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 08:59 AM
In similar vein to much already here:
"It is not my blade, but the weight of your own sins, that will lead to your demise. Sad but inevitable."

Drakevarg
2010-05-19, 09:14 AM
I'm linking this quote not because of the quote, but because this person has sigged something from a thread of mine that could work for your needs as well. It's my own personal RP Crowning Moment of Awesome.

EDIT: Actual thread : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150139

That thar be sig worthy.

Nai_Calus
2010-05-19, 10:10 AM
We need some sayings for Paladins of 4E core Corellon in here. Having to be an Unaligned Paladin throws all sorts of spanners in typical Paladin-y stuff. :smalltongue:

Clintodon
2010-05-19, 03:27 PM
Can't forget Soon's introductory one-liner.

"Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable . . . even by death itself."

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)

Rixx
2010-05-19, 03:33 PM
(Preventing other party members from finishing off a villain)

"We must spare him... nobody is beyond redemption. As noble a thing as it is to protect the good, it is more noble - and much more difficult - to protect the evil. We need to give him what he needs, which may not be what he deserves."

The Dark Fiddler
2010-05-19, 03:41 PM
We need some sayings for Paladins of 4E core Corellon in here. Having to be an Unaligned Paladin throws all sorts of spanners in typical Paladin-y stuff. :smalltongue:

"Live free or don't."
"All I know is my gut says, 'maybe'."
"I have no strong feelings one way or the other."
"If I don't survive, tell my wife, 'hello'."

What? Unaligned? Sorry, I thought you said Neutral (http://futurama.wikia.com/wiki/Neutral).

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-19, 03:49 PM
(Preventing other party members from finishing off a villain)

"We must spare him... nobody is beyond redemption. As noble a thing as it is to protect the good, it is more noble - and much more difficult - to protect the evil. We need to give him what he needs, which may not be what he deserves."

I had a situation like this in a game recently. The cleric said the above. The paladin's response was fantastic.

"He has killed hundreds of fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, sons, and daughters. You seek to protect him? Than YOU confront the families he has shattered and tell them that redeeming this worthless creature's black soul is more important than justice, more important than making sure the potential for such tragedy is totally negated...YOU tell them that. If you can look one of the orphans he has left behind in the face and tell them that this man will not only live, but that you'll try as hard as you can to get him into heaven because that's what HE needs and damn their need for justice, for closure, for the assurance that he won't come for them next...you tell them their needs are secondary to his.

I don't care about what is noble. I care about what is right. And by the laws of this nation, by the laws of my GOD, and by the laws of what is right, this man will swing from the gallows come dawn."

Tulio d Bard
2010-05-19, 03:58 PM
Can't anyone find something from Dragonlance's Sturm? My books are in Portuguese.

Agrippa
2010-05-19, 04:36 PM
I had a situation like this in a game recently. The cleric said the above. The paladin's response was fantastic.

"He has killed hundreds of fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, sons, and daughters. You seek to protect him? Than YOU confront the families he has shattered and tell them that redeeming this worthless creature's black soul is more important than justice, more important than making sure the potential for such tragedy is totally negated...YOU tell them that. If you can look one of the orphans he has left behind in the face and tell them that this man will not only live, but that you'll try as hard as you can to get him into heaven because that's what HE needs and damn their need for justice, for closure, for the assurance that he won't come for them next...you tell them their needs are secondary to his.

I don't care about what is noble. I care about what is right. And by the laws of this nation, by the laws of my GOD, and by the laws of what is right, this man will swing from the gallows come dawn."

Except for the fact that you misspelled the word "then", this is perfect. This is how a paladin should think. Mercy and compassion towards the innocent and truly repentant and holy vengence towards the wicked.

PerpetualGM
2010-05-19, 05:31 PM
I didn't see this one anywhere so apologies if its already been posted, but I've always been fond of:

"Cold weather is Pholtus' way of telling us to throw another heretic on the fire."

Let's not forget "Man of La Mancha"

"...and maddest of all, to see life as it is, and not as it should be."

"I have never had the courage to believe in nothing."

"I come in a world of iron to make a world of gold."

Fayd
2010-05-20, 12:02 AM
"Preach the Good Word at all times. When necessary, use words."

Slightly modified version of a famous quote.

hamishspence
2010-05-20, 05:27 AM
"We must spare him... nobody is beyond redemption. As noble a thing as it is to protect the good, it is more noble - and much more difficult - to protect the evil. We need to give him what he needs, which may not be what he deserves."


I don't care about what is noble. I care about what is right. And by the laws of this nation, by the laws of my GOD, and by the laws of what is right, this man will swing from the gallows come dawn."

BoED strikes a balance between these two viewpoints. You are not required to try and redeem a currently unrepentant captured villain, and executions of villains do not count as evil.

However, it is encouraged to try and redeem them.

Champions of Valor points out that every time you redeem a villain, you are weakening the overall force of evil in the multiverse. Conversely, every time you execute one, evil grows just a little stronger from the addition of one more evil soul.

That doesn't mean you can't execute, but ideally it should be a last resort- and redemption is preferable, if not always possible.

Kumo
2010-05-20, 06:25 AM
"Redemption is a lot like love: it is impossible to lose if you seek it out and impossible to gain if ignored."
"Could you have delivered that any cruder?"
"Shut up and bleed!"

Amiel
2010-05-20, 10:10 AM
It is better to serve in Heaven than to reign in Hell.

Nai_Calus
2010-05-20, 12:55 PM
The Dark Fiddler: Snrk. Exactly.

Usually my Paladin harps on Beauty and how our enemies are bringing ugliness to the world and need to be punished for it. Sometimes he goes on about renewal.

He's also mostly Good. He barely clings to something that could be charitably called Unaligned, but honestly he's basically CG.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-20, 12:57 PM
Hey, Nai Calus. Out of curiosity, you don't play in a real life game where you're a Drow avenger of Correlon do you? The part about beauty just sounds like somebody I'm currently playing with. His Oath of enmity is

"Those without beauty are the Vale's greatest tumor. The winnower's duty is an unpleasant but a necessary one."

Ravens_cry
2010-05-20, 01:35 PM
I am the Sword of Justice. I am the Open Hand of Mercy. I will strive to exemplify the Holy Opposites. Let my heart be not hard so as I become blind to an opportunity to bring one back into the light. Let my head be not soft, so as I be fooled by silvered words and honeyed tongues. I will be a shield to those who cry out, and a healer to those in distress. I will know no fear nor blight or taint. I must not forget the plight of those who do.
I am the Sword of Justice. I am the Open Hand of Mercy.
I am a Paladin.
Mock me at your peril.

Nai_Calus
2010-05-21, 08:24 AM
Hey, Nai Calus. Out of curiosity, you don't play in a real life game where you're a Drow avenger of Correlon do you? The part about beauty just sounds like somebody I'm currently playing with. His Oath of enmity is

"Those without beauty are the Vale's greatest tumor. The winnower's duty is an unpleasant but a necessary one."

Nope. Only current Divine class I've got running is the Chaladin of Corellon I've got in a PbP game here.

Note that when I say 'beauty' I'm not referring to 'pretty'; my Paladin leans heavily good and knows full well that the prettiest exterior can conceal the ugliest soul, and the ugliest exterior might well have an interior that outshines the beauty of Arvandor itself. Beauty to him is things that make the world a better place that's more enjoyable to live in. Protecting others is a good way of spreading beauty.

As for more traditional paladins, it's not exactly a good battle cry, but The Impossible Dream from Man of La Mancha is a song that pretty much completely sums up what I think of when I think of a Paladin.

And the world will be better for this
that one man, scorned and covered with scars
still strove with his last ounce of courage
to reach the unreachable stars

Viking_Mage
2010-05-21, 10:15 AM
Evil Option 1: Even if the Higher Planes are at risk, you can't be directly responsible for the death of everyone on this Plane. Do nothing and allow the Higher Planes to be destroyed. You've now allowed an infinte supply of Good-Aligned beings to be erradicated. You're Evil.

Evil Option 2: Even if this plane is destroyed, it's population pales in comparison to that of the Higher Planes. Sacrifice yourself. You've now murdered billions of sentient beings. You're Evil.

Except, your evil option 2 isn't evil. The paladin didn't murder anyone. The paladin did everything in his power to save as many lives as possible. He sacrificed his own life for several planes of goodness. The people/beings on the plane with the artifact were DOOMED.

Finally, third option - order an evacuation of the plane to the other planes. The other good-aligned planes would assuredly take as many refugees as could enter their plane - and they'd help in the evacuation.

randomhero00
2010-05-21, 10:33 AM
Short and simple, "My Strength is Justice!"

Machiavellian
2010-05-21, 11:06 AM
My former Human Werewolf Paladin of Helm named Lucien Kinstar, who was known as the White Knight:

"I am the white void, I am the cold steel, I am the just blade. With blade at hand I shall reap the sins of the world and cleanse them in the fires of destruction.

I AM LUCIEN KINSTAR! THE END HAS COME!"

Kumo
2010-05-21, 03:15 PM
Finally, third option - order an evacuation of the plane to the other planes. The other good-aligned planes would assuredly take as many refugees as could enter their plane - and they'd help in the evacuation.

Planning on informing and evacuating billions - maybe trillions - of people, most of whom you don't know about... Don't you think an artifact about to destroy the universe would be... well, a time-sensitive thing? :smallannoyed: