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Infernum
2010-05-17, 01:54 AM
First and Fore most, My players(you know who you are) DO NOT READ THIS THREAD!

Now, Ive been toying with the grapple rules and im a little confused. It says that you can use a grapple check to damage someone in the grapple as if with an unarmed strike. OK, i get that, now if i have on spiked armor, it says that it adds to a successful grapple check. So does that mean, that instead of my normal attack i can make a grapple check and deal damage from both an unarmed strike (generally 1d3+Str) and armor spike(1d6+STR)? If so, a fighter with a strength of 17 would do 1d3+3 + 1d6+3 for a max of 15.

Also if that fighter has multiple attacks, can the said fighter have multiple grapple rolls to harm people? I am most curious as to if that is possible, because if so, i believe I have made a mean grapple character.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 01:57 AM
Now, Ive been toying with the grapple rules and im a little confused. It says that you can use a grapple check to damage someone in the grapple as if with an unarmed strike. OK, i get that, now if i have on spiked armor, it says that it adds to a successful grapple check. So does that mean, that instead of my normal attack i can make a grapple check and deal damage from both an unarmed strike (generally 1d3+Str) and armor spike(1d6+STR)? If so, a fighter with a strength of 17 would do 1d3+3 + 1d6+3 for a max of 15.

You deal damage with your armor spikes instead of your unarmed strike, not with both.


Also if that fighter has multiple attacks, can the said fighter have multiple grapple rolls to harm people? I am most curious as to if that is possible, because if so, i believe I have made a mean grapple character.

Yes, although each subsequent grapple roll gets a cumulative -5 penalty, just like normal attacks.

Infernum
2010-05-17, 02:11 AM
Ah, i see. Well that works out either way. However I still believe i have found a combination using only feats and items to make a grappling fool. Around 21 to grapple at lvl 5. Thought that was pretty sick, although it does make him a one trick pony.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 02:18 AM
Around 21 to grapple at lvl 5.Pretty nifty, but (I assume you're the DM, since you told your players to stay out) don't send it alone against the PCs. You grapple one of them and the rest will gang on you and beat you senseless.

How'd ya get the modifier by the way?

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 02:33 AM
You could also send a grappling monster at the PCs. Here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30882) that explains the intricacies of grappling monsters.

Infernum
2010-05-17, 02:33 AM
Of course not, but im not even sure i want a grapple guy, just an idea i had when i spied some feats. If i did, there would be other NPCs.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-17, 03:13 AM
Quick question about grappling while we're on the subject.

If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
I notice this says "if your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks" - does that mean that a monk's Flurry of Blows attack can't be used in a grapple?

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-17, 03:25 AM
Quick question about grappling while we're on the subject.

I notice this says "if your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks" - does that mean that a monk's Flurry of Blows attack can't be used in a grapple?

Amazingly, in all my time playing D&D, this has never come up.
Because nobody plays monks.
Well, looking at the grapple rules, it would appear that a monk may either deal his unarmed damage by making opposed grapples in place of attacks or by making attack rolls at -4. Interesting, but not relevant.

A strict reading of the RAW indicates no, as you have pointed out. Only extra attacks from base attack bonus may be used to perform the various attack-replacement grapple maneuvers.

I would say RAI are such that a monk could use his flurry of blows and I think the quoted text is meant to be an example/clarification that instead muddys the waters.

My opinion? They're playing a monk anyway. Throw them a bone.

obnoxious
sig

Greenish
2010-05-17, 03:31 AM
My opinion? They're playing a monk anyway. Throw them a bone.What if they're playing tashatalora? :smalltongue:

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 03:42 AM
If you're using a grappler, I'd strongly advise attaching a vampire template (unless there's a good reason not to). When you pin an opponent, you can do an automatic d4 CON damage, still make your normal attacks, and get 5 temp HP for each drain. This'll help keep attacks off you. Also, the higher strength'll make a difference for winning checks, and vampires can spider climb, so you can get the (literal) drop on unobservant PCs. Plus, you're immune to Sneak Attack.

Nihb
2010-05-17, 06:16 AM
Playing a grappler, I can tell that, even with a great grapple modifier, there are a few details that make the option of grappling harder to use, or even a bad idea.

First, when you are grappling, you lose your bonus to Dexterity (if any) to your AC, as does your opponent. If you have some rogues/ninjas nearby, they can come closer and sneak attack in melee without penalty. Improved Precise Shot allows you to shoot in a grapple. A ranged attack without that feat could strike your ally. Melee attacks don't have this problem.

Second, there's ways to resist grapple. Combat Reflexes will allow more than one attack of opportunity per round, and allows you to make one even if you are flat-footed. Complete Warrior has Close-Quarter Fighting, which gives you an attack of opportunity whenever an opponent attempts to start a grapple, even if it has Improved Grapple or Improved Grab. You then add the damage you dealt to your Grapple Modifier.

Also, you can grapple a creature two sizes smaller than you, but you can't grapple a creature two sizes bigger. Your only options are escaping and attack with a weapon. And pin lasts for a round, and you have to re-pin each round. We didn't play this one correctly before, but the description in the PHB is clear enough.

Grapple gets interesting once you get +6/+1, which allows you to Pin and damage your opponent with your armor spikes in the same round.

Before I go, we made a houserule for Armor Spikes : you apply them when you use Damage your Opponent, but as "secondary" damages. You deal the normal equivalent to a unarmed strike at full strength, but also deal the armor spikes' damage with half strength damage. We found the armor spikes a tad useless and it was less than overpowered to allow the damage on your successful attempt to damage. Again, it's a houserule.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-17, 06:22 AM
Vampire's too many CR for too little gain.

Let's go down and dirty, level 5.

Human Psywar 5

Improved Grapple, Aberrant Blood.

18 Str, Expansion (3pp, lasts about an hour), Grip of iron (swift action, +4-6 to grapple)

Expansion changes str to 20 (+5)

3 (BAB) + 5 (Str) + 4 (Size) + 4 (Imp Grapple) + 2 (Aberrant Blood) = +18
Add on Grip of iron (5 round duration): +22-24 to grapple.

EDIT: Also note, Close Quarters Fighting is stopped by anything that stops an AoO. Cover, total concealment, reach, etc.

EDIT2: You can't INITIATE a grapple with a creature 2 sizes bigger. If such a creature grapples YOU, you're able to use any grapple move available.

Sliver
2010-05-17, 06:23 AM
Combat Reflexes will allow more than one attack of opportunity per round, and allows you to make one even if you are flat-footed. Complete Warrior has Close-Quarter Fighting, which gives you an attack of opportunity whenever an opponent attempts to start a grapple, even if it has Improved Grapple or Improved Grab. You then add the damage you dealt to your Grapple Modifier.

I'm wondering... Besides allowing AoOs when FF, how is Combat Reflexes helps you to resist grapple?

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-17, 06:25 AM
I'm wondering... Besides allowing AoOs when FF, how is Combat Reflexes helps you to resist grapple?

If you hit with the AoO that most grapples provoke, it stops the grapple. With Close quarters combat, it makes it better.

Still, AoO's are a beast that can be stopped easily enough.

Iceforge
2010-05-17, 06:29 AM
I'm wondering... Besides allowing AoOs when FF, how is Combat Reflexes helps you to resist grapple?

As the text you quoted said: You add the damage dealt to your grapple modifier, so your roll to resist the grapple has a higher bonus = higher chance of resisting it.

Combat Reflexes helps make sure that you can do that trick even if the enemy can try grappling you several times.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-17, 06:36 AM
As the text you quoted said: You add the damage dealt to your grapple modifier, so your roll to resist the grapple has a higher bonus = higher chance of resisting it.

Combat Reflexes helps make sure that you can do that trick even if the enemy can try grappling you several times.

However, most creatures that are good at grappling have reach. Reach can defeat an AoO.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 09:17 AM
Choke Hold (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Choke_Hold) isn't a bad feat for 1-on-1 grappling, or grappling if you're going to have a round to make them pass out before their allies get close to you. Not necessarily great, I just find it interesting.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 10:37 AM
Human Psywar 5

Improved Grapple, Aberrant Blood.

18 Str, Expansion (3pp, lasts about an hour), Grip of iron (swift action, +4-6 to grapple)

Expansion changes str to 20 (+5)

3 (BAB) + 5 (Str) + 4 (Size) + 4 (Imp Grapple) + 2 (Aberrant Blood) = +18
Add on Grip of iron (5 round duration): +22-24 to grapple.Goliath1/monk2/psywarr2 (go go tashatalora).
4 (BAB, using fractional BAB) + 5 (strength) +8 (size) + 4 (imp. grapple [that you still qualify after losing dex with expansion]) + 2 (Aberrant Blood) = 23. Two grapple attempts in a full round with +1 to hit.

megabyter5
2010-05-17, 10:50 AM
The general rule of thumb is that when you start thinking about the grappling rules, you drive a screw through your thumb until you come to your senses.

However, if you do figure out the grappling rules, legend has it that you will be whisked away to Valhalla by angelic spirits, and made the lord of all RPGs. You will spend eternity feasting with Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, and throwing rocks at people who play FATAL. Your type changes to Outsider.

Cogidubnus
2010-05-17, 02:43 PM
And I've just noticed something of a paradox in said rules. If you pin an enemy, you pin them for 1 round. Yet on their turn, they can make a check to break this pin...depending on where their turn falls, this may be kinda defunct. Or you could just delay until the pin is broken automatically if you're that desperate.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-17, 03:15 PM
Goliath1/monk2/psywarr2 (go go tashatalora).
4 (BAB, using fractional BAB) + 5 (strength) +8 (size) + 4 (imp. grapple [that you still qualify after losing dex with expansion]) + 2 (Aberrant Blood) = 23. Two grapple attempts in a full round with +1 to hit.

That's 3 fractional BAB, actually.

2 bab without it.


And I've just noticed something of a paradox in said rules. If you pin an enemy, you pin them for 1 round. Yet on their turn, they can make a check to break this pin...depending on where their turn falls, this may be kinda defunct. Or you could just delay until the pin is broken automatically if you're that desperate.

Easiest way is to ready an action to do something when you're not pinned.

Greenish
2010-05-17, 03:42 PM
That's 3 fractional BAB, actually.

2 bab without it.Ah, right. Dunno how I got 4/4 BAB… :smallredface:

Nihb
2010-05-17, 05:04 PM
And I've just noticed something of a paradox in said rules. If you pin an enemy, you pin them for 1 round. Yet on their turn, they can make a check to break this pin...depending on where their turn falls, this may be kinda defunct. Or you could just delay until the pin is broken automatically if you're that desperate.

Well, as I understand it, you can pin UP TO 1 round, meaning that even if your opponent can't break free of the pin, you still have to pin it again next round. Pin has only pros for the pinner, since all the thing you lose come from being in a grapple anyway.

Except if you are using Earth's Embrace. Then you might choose to lose another -4 to your AC to deal an extra 1d12.

rubycona
2010-05-17, 05:32 PM
And I've just noticed something of a paradox in said rules. If you pin an enemy, you pin them for 1 round. Yet on their turn, they can make a check to break this pin...depending on where their turn falls, this may be kinda defunct. Or you could just delay until the pin is broken automatically if you're that desperate.

This always read to me as, when you pin somebody, they're pinned until your next turn. So no, you couldn't just delay till the pin goes away. It Only goes away when the circumstances change (IE, if someone else kills the pin-er), if the pin-er fails to continue the pin on his/her next round, or if the pin-er does not attempt the pin.

So basically, if you're pinned, and the guy doing the pinning will attempt (and succeed) to pin you each and every round, you can delay till the cows come home and never get an action.

That's my take, anyway.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 06:44 PM
The general rule of thumb is that when you start thinking about the grappling rules, you drive a screw through your thumb until you come to your senses.

However, if you do figure out the grappling rules, legend has it that you will be whisked away to Valhalla by angelic spirits, and made the lord of all RPGs. You will spend eternity feasting with Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, and throwing rocks at people who play FATAL. Your type changes to Outsider.

...they're not that bad, really. We've used them quite a lot in our games.

rubycona
2010-05-17, 07:39 PM
...they're not that bad, really. We've used them quite a lot in our games.

The Rules Compendium book is nice for that, I've virtually memorized that page. We use the grappling rules a lot, too. Sure, sometimes they're confusing, but we can simply make DM judgement calls in the uncertain situations.

AslanCross
2010-05-17, 09:45 PM
The Rules Compendium book is nice for that, I've virtually memorized that page. We use the grappling rules a lot, too. Sure, sometimes they're confusing, but we can simply make DM judgement calls in the uncertain situations.

I've made mistakes before, which led to the near death of the cleric because I thought melee attacks had a chance to hit the other grappler. (Rogue tried to sneak attack the bugbear grappling the cleric. She hit the cleric instead.)

After that I read the grapple rules over and over. When I ran the third chapter of RHOD, I had to update myself on the monster grappling rules. I needed to make a lot of grapple checks when running the Bonedrinkers and the Behir. (Which has Improved Grab, Rake, Swallow Whole, AND Cleave--the last being triggered by a successful swallow, apparently)

Acero
2010-05-17, 11:38 PM
the best way to deal damage while grappling is to set the person on fire before he/she grapples.

'nuff said

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 12:14 AM
the best way to deal damage while grappling is to set the person on fire before he/she grapples.

'nuff said

Especially effective against ninjas.

Lev
2010-05-18, 12:27 AM
Grappling is more effective than most weapons because you don't "really" hurt anyone with NL damage.
Why would you want to hurt people?

Keld Denar
2010-05-18, 04:43 AM
Wait, ECL 5 you say?

ECL 5
Goliath Mountain Rage Bear Totem Barbarian2/Totemist2

1 Aberrant Blood (Flexible Limbs)
2 Improved Grapple
3 Shape Soulmeld (Mantle of Flame)

Bind Rageclaws to Totem Chakra, bind Giralon Arms, Sphinx Claws, and Mantle of Flame.

BAB 3 + 4 Size +4 Powerful Build + 4 Imp Grapple + 2 Aberrant Blood +4 Giralon Claws (with 1 Essentia), +2 Sphinx Claws (with 1 Essentia), +2 Rage, +5 Str (18 +2 racial)

+30, gets you a set of claws you can attack in the grapple with and you deal extra fire damage against anyone you grapple, regardless of check. Also sets you up nicely to bind Kraken Mantle to your Arms chakra eventually to get Constrict for more automatic damage.

Alternatively, you could swap out Shape Soulmeld for Inhuman Reach to give all of your natural attacks 10' reach, which also sets you up for Deepspawn at 6 for another +2 unnamed bonus to grapple (and 2 yummy tenticle attacks!).

AslanCross
2010-05-18, 07:37 AM
Grappling is more effective than most weapons because you don't "really" hurt anyone with NL damage.
Why would you want to hurt people?

I know this is probably a sarcastic comment, but there's a bit of irony in it since monster grappling usually leads to guided tours of a monster gizzard, tentacle rape Con damage, or horrible brain removal.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 07:43 AM
Alternatively, you could swap out Shape Soulmeld for Inhuman Reach to give all of your natural attacks 10' reachYou already have that while raging.

Also, they're tentacles.

Keld Denar
2010-05-18, 12:53 PM
Well, then you'd have 15' reach. Even better.

Lev
2010-05-18, 03:02 PM
I know this is probably a sarcastic comment, but there's a bit of irony in it since monster grappling usually leads to guided tours of a monster gizzard, tentacle rape Con damage, or horrible brain removal.

Silly, monsters aren't people =P