PDA

View Full Version : Arcane Fusion & Greater Arcane Fusion 3.5



Hendel
2010-05-17, 04:46 AM
Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion are in the Complete Mage page 96. My question is do I add metamagic feats to the two spells I cast under the umbrella of Arcane Fusion or to the Arcane Fusion itself?

For example, Arcane Fusion allows me to cast a 1st level sorcerer spell and another sorcerer spell up to 4th level at the same time. If I want to cast a True Strike (1st Level) and then an Orb of Force (4th Level) I am okay.

However, what if I want to empower the Orb of Force?

Is that impossible because that would make it a 6th Level spell and Arcane Fusion only allows up to a 4th Level spell?

Is that possible because it says I can cast a 4th Level spell without reference to metamagic, so I could metamagic it up to 9th Level as long as the original spell is 4th Level or lower?

Do I actually apply the metamagic to the Arcane Fusion and then it becomes a 7th Level spell and both the True Strike (not that it would make a difference) and the Orb of Force are Empowered?

What think ye?

Ashram
2010-05-17, 04:59 AM
Spell says you can only use spells with a casting time of 1 standard action. Unless you have the Rapid Metamagic feat, any metamagicked spell you cast as a sorcerer is a full-round action. Therefore, no metamagic.

I think it's really DM discretion about the spell level debate.

Hendel
2010-05-17, 05:02 AM
Spell says you can only use spells with a casting time of 1 standard action. Unless you have the Rapid Metamagic feat, any metamagicked spell you cast as a sorcerer is a full-round action. Therefore, no metamagic.

I think it's really DM discretion about the spell level debate.

I have Rapid Metamagic so no problem there. The question gets back to where is the metamagic applied.

Ashram
2010-05-17, 05:05 AM
Personally, I would say that no, you couldn't use a metamagic feat with this spell, since you're using spell energy to cast two spells as one.

KurtKatze
2010-05-17, 05:10 AM
I interpreted it like that:

You may apply Metamagic to your spells, but the NEW spelllevel must be within the limits of arcane fusioin. So if it says lvl 4 spell this means a chained lvl 1 spell, or a split ray scorching ray but not a maximized enervation. applying Metamagic to Arcane Fusion itself... really dont think so. Quickened arcane fusion + arcane fusion = 4 spells a round imagine with twin-spell etc xD. But to the spells involved in the Arcane Fusion, ofc!

The point of Arcane fusion imo:

Sorcerers do not naturally get quicken spell (yy arcane preperation i know ^^) so they are given another Possibility to cast 2 spells in one round. Why shouldn't they be metamagically enhanced?

Fortuna
2010-05-17, 05:17 AM
How about Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion (Metamagic Rods FTW!) containing Twinned whatever, combined with Sudden Quickened Twinned Greater Arcane Fusion containing Twinned stuff? Would that work as a method of throwing out a total of 16 spells per round?

2xMachina
2010-05-17, 05:24 AM
Hmm, next, you'll be using Sanctum Spell and dish out Arcane Fusions in Arcane Fusions.

RAW, you can metamagic your Arcane Fusion.

Runestar
2010-05-17, 05:46 AM
I think you can apply metamagic feats to arcane fusion, but I suspect you will find that they interact somewhat differently compared to the spells they replicate.

For example, I doubt a maximized or empowered arcane fusion will have any benefit, since it has no variables.

Say I cast a maximized arcane fusion replicating a magic missile and orb of fire. Both will not be maximized, since they are not direct products of the spell.

Other spells such as twin would affect it normally though.

Saph
2010-05-17, 08:53 AM
This has been answered definitively by the Complete Mage errata. You can find it on the WotC website.

Prodan
2010-05-17, 09:30 AM
Hmm, next, you'll be using Sanctum Spell and dish out Arcane Fusions in Arcane Fusions.

Yo, dawg, I heard you liked Arcane Fusion...

Hendel
2010-05-17, 09:48 AM
This has been answered definitively by the Complete Mage errata. You can find it on the WotC website.

Excellent, that answers the question.

From Complete Mage Errata:
Page 96 – Arcane Fusion [Addition] Include clause, “If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.”

Now, if Arcane Fusion itself meets the prerequisite of a metamagic feet then I also see where you could modify it as was mentioned in this thread i.e. Quicken Spell, etc. I can see how this can open up a lot of cheese if one is not careful about how to run it.

Arakune
2010-05-17, 09:54 AM
NI Infinite, undodgeable damage by nesting magic missile and arcane fusion together with NI amount of magic missile and arcane fusion.

Arcane Sanctum is fun :smallwink:

Voice of Reason
2010-05-17, 10:24 AM
Excellent, that answers the question.

From Complete Mage Errata:
Page 96 – Arcane Fusion [Addition] Include clause, “If applying a metamagic feat to a spell, use the adjusted spell level and casting time for purposes of determining eligibility for Arcane Fusion.”

Now, if Arcane Fusion itself meets the prerequisite of a metamagic feet then I also see where you could modify it as was mentioned in this thread i.e. Quicken Spell, etc. I can see how this can open up a lot of cheese if one is not careful about how to run it.

Question 1: Is Arcane Fusion a spell?
Question 2: Can you ally a metamagic feat to a spell?

If you answered yes to both questions, then you can apply metamagic feats to Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusions themselves, baring any specific restrictions. So yes, you can have a Twinned, Repeating, Quickened Arcane Fusion. Yes, that gives you 4 spells a round on the first round, and up to 8 spells a round on the second round. If you also twin and repeat the spells you cast with Arcane Fusion, then you go up to 16 spells on round two; obviously, you can see the cheese.

However, be sure to note that when you twin and repeat an Arcane Fusion, you are twinning or repeating only the Arcane Fusion, not the spells cast under it; you can choose the same spells or pick new ones, but you can't carry over metamagic enhancers, etc.

Edit: Actually, silly me, I forgot to carry over the "twinned" property on round two. By twinning everything, you can actually achieve 24 spells on round two (if you do your order of operations "right," you will twin the spell before "repeating" it, thus giving you four twined arcane fusions at the start of your next turn).