OOTS #724 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[FoE]

That had me giggling like a schoolgirl. Well done.

This bounty hunter is my kind of scum: fearless and inventive. :smallbiggrin:

[Saint Nil]

Yay, new comic! I actually feel bad for the minister now. Good to see a more human LE villain.:smallbiggrin:

[Milskidasith]

Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.

[Black]

It's nice to have a break from the drama and have a bit of comedy for a few pages :)

[iElf]

brilliant! "keeping the theme going" :smallbiggrin:

[Mordae]

And the theme bandwagon gets a thwap upside the head. Muy caliente!

[Fayd]

Brilliant! Brilliant I say!

[WildPyre]

Very nice! I really like the way this is going.

[Elan's Modron]

Man- everything's gotten so good- ever since we first made it to the throne room, a few strips back. The jokes & mise-en-scenes have been some of the best ever.

Still waiting to see what Tarquin's true colors are. He seems like a lovable boob, but who knows what Evil lurks in the heart of...

Anyway- he's a fantastic character. Bang-up job, Giant.

In the words of cheerleaders in movies everywhere: "You bring it, girl!"

[Aotrs Commander]

Hilariously superlative job, as usual.

[Tenek]

I guess we can assume that the bounty hunter is actually Sabine then, or... well, Haley would work better but there's only one of her.

[mucat]

Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.
Hmm...I was going to say "Not if he wanted to keep the theme going." But you're right, actually. "I am holding a contingent fireball" would have still been a recognizable shout-out to the movie, and maybe funnier since it's more in-world and not a direct quote...so the fourth wall stays intact until the punchline shatters it.

[Kyeudo]

*General applause from the peanut gallery*

[Snake-Aes]

"Eh, not really".

Oh my, nale is up for a pickle.

[Fayd]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

[Hardcore]

Me like:smallbiggrin:

[Elhoim]

Loved the ending pun :P

[Hardcore]

Hm, yes Vader did turn back to the Good side before death. Maybe it will the opposite for Tarquin?

[Hjorth]

I'd post a proper comment, but I -snort- am quite busy rolling around on the floor laughing.

Heh. Where was I?

I like how V and Malack can sympathize with each other, regardless of allignment.

[FafnerMorell]

Another awesome one. And I've just now realized how many of my work meetings could have been improved by using the line "Because I'm holding a THERMAL DETENATOR!"

[Sanguine]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

Strip 50. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) *Prepares for ninjas*

[Needle]

This last strips were really wonderful for laughing :smallbiggrin:

[npc revolution]

Nice one, giant. Great piece of dialogue.

[Coliumbos]

:smallwink:Totally didn't see that coming.

[RdMarquis]

I'm trying not to laugh too loud at those last two panels. It's still morning, and my neighbors might get mad. But, they are really funny, and I know I'm walking to school with a grin on my face. :smallbiggrin: (Like that one.)

[Megaduck]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

Because he raised Nale? And the seperation between the parents was because she was Chaotic Good and he was Lawful Evil. Comic 50 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

*Edit* Noooo! Sanguine's Ninja's have gotten me again! Damn you Sanguine! DAMNNNNN YOOUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!

[ThePhantom]

Nice. More star wars.

[Snake-Aes]

Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.

Elan's and Empress' shocked expressions are actually because they have no idea what a Thermal Detonator is. Elan will likely bring that up the next time the Order has the chance to buy tomato soup.

[Draz74]

Heh. As I suspected, Elan was exactly, exactly right about why Tarquin never told Nale about Elan's existence.

[Bongos]

ah ha ha ha, more Star Wars! Great!

[J.Gellert]

Eh, I was hoping Tarquin would kill the bounty hunter for his troubles.

[Kurald Galain]

Ah, tomato soup will never be the same again!

[Murkus]

Heh, Thermal Detonator. These comics always make my day.

[Cicciograna]

Aaaw, I always desired a Thermal Detonator... :smallbiggrin:

[Itamarcu]

Heh, "Yours". Seems like Haley and Blackwing aren't here yet.

[mucat]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?
He works for an evil empire, does evil things (or he wouldn't be fit for his job), and divorced his wife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) explicitly because she was chaotic good and he was lawful evil.

He's a personable, likable, and somewhat goofy guy on his own time...but none of those traits are incompatible with evil. (In retrospect, though, it was totally his lawyer's idea for him to wear the big evil helmet in court; otherwise the judge might not have believed he was evil either.)

[Bongos]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

This is why, refer to the chart:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/Tarkin-1.jpg

[The Pilgrim]

That lizard bouty hunter is pure win.

[Kurald Galain]

He works for an evil empire, does evil things (or he wouldn't be fit for his job), and divorced his wife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) explicitly because she was chaotic good and he was lawful evil.

To be fair, we only have Nale's word on that. Who is, well, a self-confessed liar, for starters.

[electricbee]

I'm convinced that tomato soup is far more dangerous than a thermal detenator. BLECH!

[krossbow]

I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop; Elan's dad just seems too.... nice.

[plasma ball]

It took me a long time to stop laughing enough to write this. I wanted to say something... but I forgot what during my extended laughter. I love the star wars theam.

I won't trust another can of tomato soup.:tongue:

[Porthos]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

Throwing Pushing Haley out of a window as to get Elan and co. to surrender doesn't qualify? :smallconfused:

[JoseB]

Great comic ^_^

I have the feeling that Tarquin will prove to be reeeeeeeally scary when he goes and does something evil.

Being funny, goofy and cool does not preclude being able to perpetrate inhuman barbarities when "on the job"... We haven't seen Tarquin doing his job yet...

Just my 2 eurocent!

[The Pilgrim]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

He seems proud of being building an Empire in wich slavery is so generalized that slavedrivers are unionized. :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

We haven't seen Tarquin doing his job yet...

Except, as I just said, pushing Haley out of a window.

With a bunch of jagged rocks at the bottom.

All to get V to use up his last remaining (useful) spell so the party is forced to surrender to him.

To paraphrase a certain deva, this doesn't exactly scream "good" to me. :smallbiggrin:

[Aerysil]

This bounty hunter is my koon ke koom.

[DrGonzo]

Aaaw, I always desired a Thermal Detonator... :smallbiggrin:

I believe they cost a 1000 credits..

[CWater]

LOL!!!:biggrin:

Awesome comic!!
That short dialogue between Malack and V is hilarious!
And:
:elan:You tried to feed me to a dragon!!
Malack:Yes. I did. Hence the apology.

is just pure win!:smallbiggrin:

I feel sad for Malack now...:(

[JoseB]

Except, as I just said, pushing Haley out of a window.

With a bunch of jagged rocks at the bottom.

All to get V to use up his last remaining (useful) spell so the party is forced to surrender to him.

To paraphrase a certain deva, this doesn't exactly scream "good" to me. :smallbiggrin:

I was thinking more of commanding an army of expy-stormtroopers and ordering the genocide of whole communities that stand between him and his goal, or just to show that he is not to be trifled with. Something like that.

Pushing Haley out of a window might just be understandable as a tactical decision, if amazingly callous. I think that better evidence of his character would be if we learn, for instance, that he had razed to the ground the cities which didn't immediately surrender to him, exterminating their inhabitants to the last one, à la Genghis Khan.

[Lycan 01]

I love the bounty hunters, too. I guess this is the last we'll see of them though, more than likely. Oh well, at least they got paid rather than eaten and/or killed.

I really enjoy the character interactions in these last few comics, too. :smallbiggrin:

[Lycar]

... I think the fourth wall just took a thermal detonator to the face. :smalltongue:

Lycar

[pinwiz]

Except, as I just said, pushing Haley out of a window.

With a bunch of jagged rocks at the bottom.

All to get V to use up his last remaining (useful) spell so the party is forced to surrender to him.

To paraphrase a certain deva, this doesn't exactly scream "good" to me. :smallbiggrin:

It doesn't exactly scream "evil" though either. He had just heard V talking about feather fall being his final spell, and Haley was the only threat, so he eliminated the final threat in a way that was non lethal and determined whether it was Elan or Nale. It actually sounds like something Roy would do honestly.

Again, i'm convinced Tarquin will turn out Evil, but it's still too early to know the character. All we've actually seen has been him eliminating the current threat and talking, and he would obviously be Affably Evil.

[Hendel]

Well, we had the reveal from the end of Empire Strikes Back and the Pricess Leia/Bounty Hunter scene with the thermal detonator, I guess the next step would be a daring raid by Roy to infiltrate the EOB's palace (she does look like Jaba) to free his friends.

Maybe Roy will fight the Tarrasque instead of the Rancor.

[Porthos]

It doesn't exactly scream "evil" though either..

Really? :smallconfused:

...

You have a different definition of evil than me, I guess. :smallsmile:

[Mando Knight]

So... wait... is Tarquin/ElanDad really evil, or was that just a ruse to set up more dramatic tension? He doesn't really seem all that evil...

[Almaseti]

I love how Tarquin is completely unruffled by the "thermal detonator" line.

[pendell]

Because I'm HOLDING A THERMAL DETONATER!

"That's a can of tomato soup".

Good thing I had just finished swallowing my soda.

That is officially the funniest thing I've seen in OOTS since Belkar and Haley snapped Thanh out of the 'dominate person' spell Tsukiko put on him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[B. Dandelion]

Is it bad that I like Gaanji so much he's completely overshadowed Elan's dad? But I look forward to seeing what's going to come out of that, too. It's interesting to me that he'd ask his son about thwarting villains, when I haven't really seen anything that makes me believe he ISN'T LE as we've been told. That he's Genre Savvy on top of it just adds to the curiosity. Would he be proud of Elan in a thematic way even if he didn't agree with him in a moral one? Does he assume Elan is Chaotic Good like his mother? Would he consider himself a "villain," if an honorable one? To carry out the Star Wars theme to its full conclusion would imply Elan''s arrival will eventually trigger a redemption arc for Tarquin himself, how would he feel about that? So many questions...

[Agi Hammerthief]

that kind off blew up in the face of those who thought that 723 was a cheep reference :smallbiggrin:

[Shale]

And we get another bit of Tarquin's "business" side. I like this guy. He's like Elan but he can compartmentalize.

[Elfey]

Tarquin I think is one of the factions we don't know about, and possible the most dangerous one. Imagine if Nale had common sense and narrative knowledge? That's Tarquin. He's wonderful and charming, and that's why I'm scared as all Frak.

He's a great villain, I really hope we get a few more strips before he and Elan have to part, and I really hope Julio Scoundrel doesn't show up next strip just to die. (Hey if we are going with the theme....).

But, Tarquin is a Dangerously Genre Savvy Villain, while he'd rather rule than kill the world, he's still going to be a long term foe, partly because he knows how fulfilling the theme is from a narrative perspective, partly because he's manipulated the world by splitting the Twins. He's the sort of guy whose going to have the bomb go off at 30 seconds left if he really wants to win and isn't just having fun. He may start out having fun between him and Elan as Protagonist and Antagonist, but if he ever has to get serious, he's the most crafty opponent we've seen.

[Morty]

I love the immediate understanding between V and Malack.

[BobVosh]

Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.

Maybe he meant a necklace of fireballs. >.>

On a side note I will always call a necklace of fireballs a thermal detonator now.


I like how V and Malack can sympathize with each other, regardless of allignment.

Or attempted alignment in V's case.

[licoot]

by far the funniest comic in ages:smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

Except, as I just said, pushing Haley out of a window.

With a bunch of jagged rocks at the bottom.

All to get V to use up his last remaining (useful) spell so the party is forced to surrender to him.

To paraphrase a certain deva, this doesn't exactly scream "good" to me. :smallbiggrin:

He was confronted by what is obviously a high-level band of intruders, given they just went through a blade barrier. I'm assuming he also saw the blonde-haired guy and immediately assumed that he was dealing with either A) Elan or B) nale.

If it's Elan, they will save the rogue from certain death, no harm no foul.

If it's Nale, the female Rogue is Sabine and can fly. She's also the most dangerous level-draining threat and must be neutralized immediately. Tarquin has nothing to fear from a wizard out of spells or from Fighter/Sorcerer/Rogue Nale. I suspect Nale really isn't that good in a standup fight.

To my mind, Tarquin has not yet demonstrated any truly "evil" behavior, only the ability to respond quickly with innovative tactical thinking. Although it is true that using Good's scruples against them is not exactly "good" behavior.

I have no doubt Tarquin will prove Evil eventually -- but so far, three strips in, all we've seen is behavior that is Lawful Neutral.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hjorth]

Or attempted alignment in V's case.

Yes, I thought of that, but I couldn't think of a better word. Curse you, English as a second language. :smalltongue:

[BtanH]

Nice as always.

[Big Hungry Joe]

This story arc is filled with rich, creamy goodness. In keeping with the SW theme, let's also hope the Giant doesn't eventually go insane and start releasing Special Edition strips undoing -- er, "updating -- his original vision.

[FoE]

You know, I'm just not seeing the Evil in Tarquin yet... why are we assuming he's evil again?

By the Twelve Gods, he's been in the comic for all of five strips! We've just been introduced to him and people are already questioning his alignment! Does he have to be eating kittens every single minute of every day just to make sure everyone knows he's Evil?

Can you not imagine a villain being polite to his own flesh and blood? Can't he be Affably Evil? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil)

[paddyfool]

That poor, poor 4th wall...

[mucat]

It's interesting to me that he'd ask his son about thwarting villains, when I haven't really seen anything that makes me believe he ISN'T LE as we've been told. That he's Genre Savvy on top of it just adds to the curiosity. Would he be proud of Elan in a thematic way even if he didn't agree with him in a moral one? Does he assume Elan is Chaotic Good like his mother? Would he consider himself a "villain," if an honorable one?
I think you've hit the mark exactly. In the OOTS world, being a villain is a profession, and one that requires you to do abominable things while on the job. You can still be an affable guy on your own time. (To all Attorneys in the Playground, apologies for the fact that I'm thinking of you right now.)

He realizes that Elan follows a different profession: Protagonist. So naturally he wants to know how the protaganizing is going, and will be proud to hear about Elan's successes. Elan might also think some of the less repulsive villainous things his Dad has done are cool. And then they will both go back on the job, and try to bring down everything one another have built.

That's not all that unlike real-life families, in my experience. I have several relatives who do things for a living that I consider evil, and several (not always the same ones) who think the same of me. (Mainly for reasons that I can't discuss without bringing up real-life politics, religion, or both.)

When we get together, we can talk about work without rancor, laugh at one another's stories of crazy things that happen on the job, sympathize with one another's griping about idiot co-workers and pointless meetings. And then we go back to work, and each try to make sure that the other's goals meet with crushing failure. Such is life...

EDIT:

Does he have to be eating kittens every single minute of every day just to make sure everyone knows he's Evil?
Mmmm, kittens...

[Porthos]

To my mind, Tarquin has not yet demonstrated any truly "evil" behavior, only the ability to respond quickly with innovative tactical thinking. Although it is true that using Good's scruples against them is not exactly "good" behavior.

....

I'm not saying that Tarquin is guilty of Baby-Punching, Puppy-Kicking, Stealing-A-Report-Card-From-A-Kid (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=30%3Aframes-and-panels-index&id=815%3Athe-joker-steals-some-kids-report-card-seriously&Itemid=24) level of evil yet. But I am saying that showing callous disregard for life (and pushing someone out of a window should qualify in my mind) all as part of a Batman Gambit to get someone to surrender is slightly on the evil side of the street.

No, it's not the biggest signpost in the world. But riddle me this: If we hadn't seen Tarquin acting all witty and charming, wouldn't people be using his actions at the window as an indication he was evil?

Of course they would. We know how this forum acts. :smalltongue:

But because he acts under a code, and is funny, (some) posters whiplash and completely forget about what happened not two strips ago.

It's almost predictible, really. :smallwink:

[Daibhid C]

Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.

Well, maybe. If it comes to that, he could have used something less ... present-day than a can of tomato soup...

I feel slow: It was only when I saw Bongos's chart that I realised Tarquin is wearing a cape with a line of his tunic colour around the hem. Just like Elan's original outfit, and Nale's palette swap thereof.

[Closak]

Gaanji reminds of Spike so much it's a little scary...:smalleek:

You sure they aren't brothers or something?

Hey Gaanji, you wouldn't happen to be related to someone by the name of Spike would you?

Of course, Spike has somewhat less common sense than Gaanji does...YOU DO NOT INSULT THE BBEG TO HIS FACE NEAR THE START OF THE CAMPAIGN WHEN YOU ARE STILL LIKE TWENTY LEVELS LOWER THAN HIM! (Which Spike did, he paid for it with a lot of pain)

Other than the big gap in how much common sense they have though...


And Tarquin is totally unaffected by the thermal detonator thing.
Even the empress is all O_O and she's a frikkin DRAGON!

[Porthos]

Does he have to be eating kittens every single minute of every day just to make sure everyone knows he's Evil?

Consdiering the alignment debates that have swirled around Belkar, Thog, Redcloak, and others, all I have to say is: Is this a rhetorical question? :smallbiggrin:

[k_bukie]

Just because someone is of evil alignment, doesn't necessarily make that person a villain. Look at Belkar.

Heck, Rich has already made a lawful good antagonist, I don't see why he wouldn't be inclined to make a lawful evil protagonist as well.

[The Succubus]

Run, you damn fools! HE'S HOLDING SOUP!

[Rustic Dude]

Now Mr Lizardman will be the Slave Leia to the Jabba Empress of Blood..

[FoE]

Consdiering the alignment debates that have swirled around Belkar, Thog, Redcloak, and others, all I have to say is: Is this a rhetorical question? :smallbiggrin:

Indeed.

*Shakes head*

Now, I'd be willing to have this debate over Malack. I'm not sure I'm willing to label him as Evil just yet without knowing more about him.

[Deme]

I'd like to point out that Tarquin has no reason to be doing evil things here: he's just pulled off a long-term scheme and met his long-lost other son, who appreciates the aforementioned scheme (and I don't think Nale would have ever really appreciated his father's apparent desire to do this sort of stuff), and found out that said son is doing pretty well and has some stuff in common with him. I don't see a particular reason to ruin it by bathing in blood, or whatever.

As for not killing the bounty hunter...well, then there would be two (and a later exponential number) of bounty hunters willing to work for the empire. Bad for buisness and counter-productive. Why bother shooting yourself in the foot like that, when you can just throw some money?

Still, I think he's evil. Nice, maybe, fun, certainly, and awesome, absolutely, but evil. I have yet to see any strong grounds that he's not evil and have seen several indications (his enviroment, Nale's story) that he is. " Lawful Evil" is my default assumption of his alignment, until told or explicitly shown otherwise.

[Drivort]

Oh man, gotta love the last panel:smallbiggrin:

[mucat]

Now, I'd be willing to have this debate over Malack. I'm not sure I'm willing to label him as Evil just yet without knowing more about him.
Well, there is the whole "You may not be the person I was looking for, but if not you're of no use to me, so I'm letting the dragon eat you" bit. (Unless, of course, Elan was right that "I think the answer is no.")

And like Tarquin, Malack holds a high-ranking position in an empire where slavery is common. (Again, unless the whole slave-drivers' union thing turns out to be a red herring, and 'slave' is simply the name they use for free laborers, or for criminals working off a legitimate debt to society.)

Barring such improbable interpretations of what we've seen, they're both clearly evil...and also both utterly awesome. I especially like Malack's bonding with V over their shared albatrosses. I sympathize with them both.

EDIT: Ah, and on the whole "Was it evil to push Haley out the window?" question. Tarquin knew that if Haley didn't fall to her death, his low-level mook guards would be facing an adventurer who had just survived Malack's Blade Barrier without a scratch, and who may or may not be a soul-eating fiend. Their fate was not exactly unpredictable. Kind of a callous way to treat your employees...

[Samuraiko]

Considering I was planning on making tomato soup for dinner tonight BEFORE reading this update, I just cracked up when he whipped out that can.

Absolutely great fun.

[CoffeeIncluded]

:smallbiggrin: But where's Haley? And you think they'll be allies now?

[pinwiz]

....

I'm not saying that Tarquin is guilty of Baby-Punching, Puppy-Kicking, Stealing-A-Report-Card-From-A-Kid (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=30%3Aframes-and-panels-index&id=815%3Athe-joker-steals-some-kids-report-card-seriously&Itemid=24) level of evil yet. But I am saying that showing callous disregard for life (and pushing someone out of a window should qualify in my mind) all as part of a Batman Gambit to get someone to surrender is slightly on the evil side of the street.

No, it's not the biggest signpost in the world. But riddle me this: If we hadn't seen Tarquin acting all witty and charming, wouldn't people be using his actions at the window as an indication he was evil?

Of course they would. We know how this forum acts. :smalltongue:

But because he acts under a code, and is funny, (some) posters whiplash and completely forget about what happened not two strips ago.

It's almost predictible, really. :smallwink:

And if Tarquin hadn't pushed Haley out a window, would you be considering him evil? You can't base his alignment on what might have happened, only what he did. He KNEW V could cast feather fall and save her, and again, the argument could be made that he was acting in self defense. He has acted very nice and as a friend to Elan, which as I recall, only the good guys have been nice in this comic as of yet (please correct me if i'm wrong on this).

I'm agreeing that he's probably Evil, but it's not nearly as set in stone as you're saying. YET He will probably do something to cement himself in the evil side of things, but his short time period of appearance is nothing definitive.

[Grimly Feendish]

On the alignment thing Tarquin seemed to change personality when he took his helmet off - from well spoken genius to Elan-like dork. So maybe he's a Jekyll and Hyde type.

[Squieonat]

Anyone remember this? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html

I've always been curious as to what he meant about his father.

[mucat]

:smallbiggrin: But where's Haley?
Screaming in frustration at all the trigger-happy guards. "Damn it, will one of you stay alive for a round or two so I can surrender?"


He has acted very nice and as a friend to Elan, which as I recall, only the good guys have been nice in this comic as of yet (please correct me if i'm wrong on this).
Hilgya was nice, likable, and a bad guy (and I know someone will say she's Chaotic Neutral. But she did help Nale, albeit reluctantly, betray and try to murder the good guys. Her flashbacks to trying to kill her apparently kind and loving husband are even clearer indications of either an evil alignment or a severe delusional psychosis.)

The Bandit King might fit the "affable evil" description too, and perhaps Jirix.

[SatyreIkon]

You really want to press home the Star Wars references, don't you, Giant? :smallbiggrin:

I especially liked the "understanding" between Malack and V.

[The_Weirdo]

I have to say, Gannji is a true professional of his field. He did his job to the best of his abilities. Upon realizing an unforeseen failure he could not predict, he demanded some compensation (though not ALL of it, as he didn't perform the job) and got it - it's fair. As a freelance professional myself (translation), I have to admire these qualities.

I might not include holding a tomato soup can and calling it a thermal detonator were I to translate something and find out it was the wrong document by fault of the customer, though. But, then again, Gannji is unlikely to deal directly with the upper echelons of the Empire of Blood again.

[Herald Alberich]

You know, as Roy pointed out back when he was dead, there are no paladins in the Order. There's nothing stopping them from associating with Evil characters. If Tarquin finds out about the threat to the world, and if Roy, Elan, and the other Good members of the Order can overlook the slavery thing and whatever else the EoB is involved in, they might just get some material support out of this. Tarquin, after all, has as much interest in preventing ultimate destruction as anyone.

Tarquin could be this book's Lord Shojo.

And let's just not mention to Hinjo exactly who our new allies are, shall we?

[lio45]

I have the feeling that Tarquin will prove to be reeeeeeeally scary when he goes and does something evil.

Being funny, goofy and cool does not preclude being able to perpetrate inhuman barbarities when "on the job"... We haven't seen Tarquin doing his job yet...

Completely agreed.

FWIW... Xykon's funny, Xykon's goofy, and Xykon's cool. At the same time, he's also clearly evil.

(Not that your point needed further driving home...)

[Donald]

To keep the theme going


After a bunch of fun, Elan gets the group in trouble and captured. As V is being lower into the dragon's mouth.

:vaarsuvius: You are an idiot.

:elan: I know.

[Porthos]

He KNEW V could cast feather fall and save her

He did?

"Knew" is an awfully strong word.


He has acted very nice and as a friend to Elan, which as I recall, only the good guys have been nice in this comic as of yet (please correct me if i'm wrong on this).

Thog. Hilgya. Redcloak, on occasion.

(I won't bring up Therkla because there is serious debate about her End-of-Life alignment)

But let me go back to the pushing someone out of a window thing. If I was in a plane and I saw that someone hadn't got their parachute on yet, but someone else had, would it be "OK" for me to toss the first person out of the plane? I mean, the other person could catch up to the other one and save them after all. So it's not like the first person was in any real danger.

It just strikes me that people are being far too lenient over this. I am willing to stipulate that it is possible that Tarquin is LN. But I am also saying that the signs ain't good. And that a E character is far more likely to pull that window stunt than a N one.

EDIT:: And, if you recall, people were asking for a single sign that Tarquin might be evil.

Well, I gave it.

I'm not supplying proof. Just giving an instance which showed that he in fact might be evil.

[Boogastreehouse]

I like how V and Malack can sympathize with each other, regardless of allignment.

I believe that at this time their alignments are likely to be rather close, actually.

And no alignment has cornered the market on exasperation, where Elan is concerned!

[2xMachina]

On the alignment thing Tarquin seemed to change personality when he took his helmet off - from well spoken genius to Elan-like dork. So maybe he's a Jekyll and Hyde type.

His helmet is a Helm of Opposite Alignment! With extra features and benefits!

Helm on, brilliant LE leader
Helm off, dorky CG fella.

[pinwiz]

He did?

"Knew" is an awfully strong word.

third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) he's withing arms reach. then says "will you not cast your spell?" that's more akin to someone standing next to you on the airplane having said "i have a secret parachute" and then pushing them out. I'd say yes, he did in fact know for certain V had the spell.


EDIT:: And, if you recall, people were asking for a single sign that Tarquin might be evil.

Well, I gave it.

I'm not supplying proof. Just giving an instance which showed that he in fact might be evil.

Fair enough. My mistake, i thought you were calling this action solid proof that he MUST be evil.

[B. Dandelion]

I think you've hit the mark exactly. In the OOTS world, being a villain is a profession, and one that requires you to do abominable things while on the job. You can still be an affable guy on your own time. (To all Attorneys in the Playground, apologies for the fact that I'm thinking of you right now.)

He realizes that Elan follows a different profession: Protagonist. So naturally he wants to know how the protaganizing is going, and will be proud to hear about Elan's successes. Elan might also think some of the less repulsive villainous things his Dad has done are cool. And then they will both go back on the job, and try to bring down everything one another have built.

That's not all that unlike real-life families, in my experience. I have several relatives who do things for a living that I consider evil, and several (not always the same ones) who think the same of me. (Mainly for reasons that I can't discuss without bringing up real-life politics, religion, or both.)

When we get together, we can talk about work without rancor, laugh at one another's stories of crazy things that happen on the job, sympathize with one another's griping about idiot co-workers and pointless meetings. And then we go back to work, and each try to make sure that the other's goals meet with crushing failure. Such is life...

Wow. Well said. It's sounding almost like the complete inverse of Roy/Eugene, isn't it? The two of the same alignment and goals -- on the big questions they'd see eye-to-eye, but it's all about the petty squabbling and mutual disdain. Versus the diametrically opposed pair who are likely working at complete cross purposes but are able to get along swimmingly well on the personal level.

[kamuishirou]

LOL! That was awesome! "We'll take the eight." LOL

[Porthos]

third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0722.html) he's withing arms reach. then says "will you not cast your spell?" that's more akin to someone standing next to you on the airplane having said "i have a secret parachute" and then pushing them out. I'd say yes, he did in fact know for certain V had the spell.

And yet V didn't cast the spell until Tarquin reminded him to do so. Something might have happened in that time, including him not correctly deducing the nature of the relationship between V, Elan, and Haley.

In other words, if he had been wrong about how they felt about each other...

.... Well, there was a chance that Haley could be bugsplatted right now.

It's that taking a risk that I am most commenting about. :smallsmile:

[Kelvin360]

I can totally see a few strips from now:

*Tarquin is giving Elan the tour and they arrive at the local bar.*

Tarquin: And this is where we ha- *Julio exits the bar and ends up right in front of Elan and Tarquin*

All of them: :smalleek:

Julio: Oh. Oh crap.

[Woodsman]

Oh, man, that was just EPIC.

[Jack of Spades]

I feel bad for not expecting that reference :smalleek:

Hm... Why is all well? They're in a kobold kingdom, and all is well. That doesn't feel quite right.

[ThreadKiller]

The last two panels were awesome! Thanks, Giant!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Bavarian itP]

Now I want a prequel/spinoff book detailing Gannji's and Enor's wacky enterprises for the western continent warlords :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, I want it :smallyuk:

And the usual, awesome comic blabla I especially liked the panels 3, 5, 9 and let's say 10 blabla :smallredface:

[LtNOWIS]

Except, as I just said, pushing Haley out of a window.

With a bunch of jagged rocks at the bottom.

All to get V to use up his last remaining (useful) spell so the party is forced to surrender to him.

To paraphrase a certain deva, this doesn't exactly scream "good" to me. :smallbiggrin:

Not to nitpick, but I think the jagged rocks were something of a bluff. We didn't really see any of them. Tarquin realized that Elan wouldn't take chances like that though, if he was really Elan.

He is most likely evil though. Working for Helping to run an obviously evil empire is the main indicator there.

[Querzis]

And yet V didn't cast the spell until Tarquin reminded him to do so. Something might have happened in that time, including him not correctly deducing the nature of the relationship between V, Elan, and Haley.

In other words, if he had been wrong about how they felt about each other...

.... Well, there was a chance that Haley could be bugsplatted right now.

It's that taking a risk that I am most commenting about. :smallsmile:

If the man was Nale, it means the female rogue was Sabine polymorphed and she can fly so there was no danger and if it was Elan then he was going to save her, there was no real risk.

And even if there was, he was against a group of obviously high-level adventurers who had just gone through a freaking blade barriers. Even if Haley would have died, it would have counted as self-defense. Just look at what Haley did to all the guards down there, I dont see you calling her evil for killing people who are obviously a threat to you. Or maybe you think its only evil if you do it to protagonist?

And yes, I'm sure Tarquin is evil, but no, pushing Haley out of the window definitly wasnt an evil act.

[Hrairoo]

Yes! Star Wars reference ftw! The moment he said fifty thou, i could feel it coming...

[Sebastian]

Strip 50. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) *Prepares for ninjas*

But that was a lot of time ago, when he was young and reckless, maybe with age he turned more neutral (I doubt good, after all he works for a kingdom that support slavery).

[Aaron]

Ha ha ha! Great Star Wars reference Giant! :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, Elan's father doesn't seems as bad as Nale has said. :smallconfused: Maybe Nale over-exaggerated because he really hated his father.

[danielmayer]

YYYYAaaaaaaiiiii! Thermal Detonator! I just laughed that loud that my neighbours surely had a frown about it!
Damn, that was really one of the best jokes in OOTS ever. Just to keep ... cool.
More the subtle, perhaps even more funny joke: "sadly." :D
Wow, I can't wait for the next strips. I think OOTS just has gained help from a .... low flying dragon? ;) Never read about a dragon with Wis <9 so far...
Thanks Giant!

[Caivs]

Damnit, I must change my list of the best OotS strips again!

I loved the exchange between Elan and Tarquin, V and Malack and the star wars reference at the end, this strip was PERFECT!

And I must admit I hope we see later that Tarquin is still evil, I would love to see an evil main character appear on the side of the Order!

[Zanaril]

And I must admit I hope we see later that Tarquin is still evil, I would love to see an evil main character appear on the side of the Order!

:belkar: So what am I, Neutral? :smallmad:

[GenPol]

Hah, that was hilarious! Still not seeing the Lawful Evil though yet.

[iTookUrNick]

These last few strips have been truly above par. This truly is the work of a Giant among men. :)

[Silverraptor]

I was suprised that there would be two comics with a star wars punchline in them.

Still, it was funny.

[Inhuman Bot]

Did it take anyone until JUST NOW to realize that Malack was possibly a referance to Darth Malak? :smalltongue:

[Doug Lampert]

He KNEW V could cast feather fall and save her,


He did?

"Knew" is an awfully strong word.

By a strict reading of the rules V COULD NOT cast feather fall and save her. At the time the spell was cast V had no line of effect to Haley, and V was unable to move to get line of effect to Haley.

The GM/Universe went leinent to let that happen.

What's more, even if Elan is Goodness personified, the casting of the ONLY spell V has that might let him escape depends on V casting the spell, not Elan. Bit of a streach to assume it's only dependent on Elan being not Nale.


If the man was Nale, it means the female rogue was Sabine polymorphed and she can fly so there was no danger and if it was Elan then he was going to save her, there was no real risk.

Right, because Nale NEVER swaps henchthings and would NEVER associate with another female than Sabine.

No, wait, we've SEEN Nale associating and even going on a date with Haley, that doesn't even begin to follow.

Look, you can argue (quite reasonably and IMAO CORRECTLY) that tossing a dangerous escaping fugitive out a window to their own possible death is perfectly allowable for any alignment including Paladin level LG. But you CAN'T argue that there was no risk to Haley in what was done, there are about five ways that could have gone wrong and resulted in a giant SPLAT when she hit. And if you think Haley qualifies as innocent (despite the dangerous fugitive part, and I do think that in this particular case) then that means throwing her out the window shows a lack of respect for and interest in protecting innocent life and an active willingness to risk innocent life for a minor gain. In other words, that's Evil.

[Phoenix Xul]

Anathron, that might work except Malack bears absolutely no similarities to Malak. You know, not missing a jaw, or wiping out planet surfaces, or have no real motive.

[hamishspence]

The Bandit King might fit the "affable evil" description too, and perhaps Jirix.

The Giant's comment on Samantha & the Bandit King, in Paladin Blues:


I spent time making sure that at least Samantha was unequivicably Evil so that her death at the hands of the paladin didn't call Miko's alignment into question. Her father wasn't much better; at best he was Neutral, with some Evil tendencies.

[doodthedud]

You really want to press home the Star Wars references, don't you, Giant? :smallbiggrin:

I especially liked the "understanding" between Malack and V.

I could swear the thermal detonator joke was added after considering forum posts....I think he does that a lot...

[Thrax]

Hehe, a can of tomato soup.
At least it wasn't a Jammie Dodgers.

[Drakevarg]

He realizes that Elan follows a different Profession: Protagonist.

I should try putting skill points into this.

[raven-gm]

This and the end of 723 remind me why OOTS is so awesome. Who could have guessed Elan's father would be so much like him?

"Does Nale count?"
"Not really."
AHAHAHAHA WHEEEEEEE.

[Dalek Kommander]

Let's imagine that things had gone slightly differently, and it was Roy and Belkar who got whisked off to the Empire of Blood with Elan.

Then let us further imagine that during a daring escape, Tarquin overheard Belkar say he has a special one-use item of feather-fall, that only rangers can use.

Thinking quickly, Tarquin pushes Roy out a window...

[Darcy]

AHA! So Elan's real last name is Spikyhelm! It all makes so much sense.

[Bongos]

Helm on, brilliant LE leader
Helm off, dorky CG fella.
Now this theory I kind of like, except there is a hole in it. He is wearing a different helmet in the "flashback" scene.

[Fayd]

Because he raised Nale? And the seperation between the parents was because she was Chaotic Good and he was Lawful Evil. Comic 50 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

*Edit* Noooo! Sanguine's Ninja's have gotten me again! Damn you Sanguine! DAMNNNNN YOOUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!

Because children always end up like their parents and Nale is a sparkling font of truth and veracity.

[Lord Loss]

LOL! My favorite gag in a long time! Keep up the good work, rich! And may the force be with you...

[Da'Shain]

Great comic, I'm really looking forward to seeing more of Tarquin and how he and Elan's relationship goes off. I can see Tarquin displaying some atrocity or other that he's committed (or ordered committed) and Elan swearing to bring him to justice and the two facing off, only for something to force one or the other party to run. Cue uncontrollable smiling and "My own son/father, my sworn archenemy! The drama is palpable!"


Anyone else find it slightly surprising that Malack apparently immediately healed V's strength back up upon discovering they were innocent? Without even being told to. A high-level Wizard in his country's throne room with all of its leaders there who could still be hostile (owing to their harsh treatment of V and co.) and the cleric seems to not even think twice about restoring him to function. I won't claim that signals some specific alignment, but perhaps Malack is more likely to become an ally of the Order than Tarquin.

[amuletts]

And there I was expecting the Rules Lawyers to turn up and say that Thermal Detonators are not allowed in this system. Aw, I wanna see those guys again!

[warmachine]

The joke in the last episode was predictable but it was worth it to set up this joke.

[Blaznak]

Thank you. I really needed tha laugh!

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You know, I really like Tarquin. He strikes me as Elan, only smarter and more cunning. I hope that in their time together some of that rubs off on our spoony Bard.

As to Tarquin's alignment: perhaps he is LE but feels that supporting Elan is better for him than opposing him (and if I were the Evil Ruler-Behind-the-Throne I would do what I could to avoid unnecessary conflict with high level PCs). Perhaps he has become more LN in the intervening time. Perhaps Nale was wrong all along, and Tarquin is LG and all of this, separating from their Mother, separating the twins, acting as general to the apparently evil Empire of Blood, is all some massive Xanatos Gambit to further some Great Good in the world. In any case, it's going to be an interesting thread to pull.

[Szilard]

That last comic really had my brother and I laughing out loud. :smallbiggrin:

[Nevitan]

HA Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
:biggrin:

[Faramir]

really on a roll here... :)

[Draconi Redfir]

Elans Dad seems like a really nice guy. i hope the two of them continue to get along so well dispite oposing alignments.

[Drakevarg]

I'm predicting Friendly Enemies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FriendlyEnemy) will result. I can honestly see Elan being forced to kill his father, whose dying words will be "I'm so proud of you..."

The two are clearly huge fans of tropes, and even if they are forced to be enemies they will both get a huge kick out of it.

[Teleporker]

And there I was expecting the Rules Lawyers to turn up and say that Thermal Detonators are not allowed in this system. Aw, I wanna see those guys again!

Those two would be quite at home in the empire of blood! Judging by everything so far, they'd fetch quite the pretty penny here. Maybe even Celia could use the place as a career starter.

Changing the subject a bit, Elan's dad is proving to be quite the confusing character here. He makes up a quickly-well-though plan to figure out Elan's situation, then goes all airhead after taking the helmet off. He is supposed to be lawful evil, and yet he makes comments as if he's proud that his son is a good guy, and how he'll probably like what he's doing...

For once I don't even want to speculate or make crackpot theories. I just want to hold my breath for the next two updates and see where this goes.

(Please don't switch to Roy and Belkar, Please don't switch to Roy and Belkar, Please don't switch to Roy and Belkar, Please don't swit... )

[pendell]

He is most likely evil though. Working for Helping to run an obviously evil empire is the main indicator there.

Not necessarily. It depends on just where on the "Lawful evil" scale this empire is. If it is LAWFUL evil, then it will have lawful neutral and possibly lawful good servants, on the grounds that order is better than constant civil war and anarchy. Many people would prefer a strong unified empire under an evil dictator than a patchwork of mutually hateful countries who are constantly looting and pillaging the countryside.

Otoh, if it is lawful EVIL, then it probably will have very few servents who are even lawful neutral.

The real question is, what are the alternatives? I dunno about you, but I remember the map from a couple of strips back and I don't recall seeing the Republic of Sweetness and Light anywhere on this continent. A lawful good person might serve the Empire of Blood on the grounds that even an Empire of Blood is better than an endless, perpetual war where only the vultures win. It's the same reason an Admiral Pelleon would serve the Empire in Timothy Zahn's books.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[gosh]

Thermal detonator. Heh.

Tarquin seems pretty nice and cool; I'm wondering whether he's really that evil. While this country does have the name "Empire of Blood" and has slavery issues, the Empress is just a figurehead and we now know Nale killed three of Malack's children. Also, we can be fairly sure from page 50 that he's Lawful Evil, but..

Anyhow, I'm wondering when Haley and Blackwing will come back up (and when Roy, Durkon, and Belkar will burst in only to have Elan reassure them that Tarquin + Malack are friends.)

[Drakevarg]

Thermal detonator. Heh.

Tarquin seems pretty nice and cool; I'm wondering whether he's really that evil. While this country does have the name "Empire of Blood" and has slavery issues, the Empress is just a figurehead and we now know Nale killed three of Malack's children. Also, we can be fairly sure from page 50 that he's Lawful Evil, but..

Anyhow, I'm wondering when Haley and Blackwing will come back up (and when Roy, Durkon, and Belkar will burst in only to have Elan reassure them that Tarquin + Malack are friends not immeadiate threats.)

Fixed it for you.

[Dvandemon]

This is why, refer to the chart:
*scrub*

Yay! More charts :smallbiggrin:

[gosh]

Fixed it for you.

Yeah, that's true. :'P

[Canisius]

Love the comic - love the recent quick updates and humor!

Just a comment on pushing Haley out the window - what did Tarquin have to lose? Even if she hit the ground, and it turned out to be a mistake, death isn't permanent in D&D.. Might have been rude, but not horribly evil, like familicide (whoa, V's gonna get some spectacular payback for that).

We haven't seen KilKil or Malak do anything unspeakably evil yet, but there's little doubt they're evil-aligned.

Looking forward to Elan and his dad's relationship get more complicated over time. "See Elan, we grind up these puppies for a high-protein snack! Efficient and nutritious." - said with a proud smile...

[Coidzor]

And yes, I'm sure Tarquin is evil, but no, pushing Haley out of the window definitely wasn't an evil act.

More to the point, it doesn't matter whether it was or was not.

Nor does being interested in catching up with his long-lost son make him not-evil.


Did it take anyone until JUST NOW to realize that Malack was possibly a referance to Darth Malak? :smalltongue:

Well, the names are similar, but if that's it, kind of a weak reference. Or should we expect to find out that he's gotten his jaw ripped off before by Nale or will get it ripped of in the future? To that I say, Meh.

Meh.

[Dark Matter]

Loved it.

Any speculation as too what that Staff is?

[Kareasint]

This is why, refer to the chart:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/Tarkin-1.jpg

You are hereby awarded +1 Internet. Congrats.

[thepsyker]

For some reason, I get the feeling the Elan's dad will prove to be lawful evil in a way similar to the old Count Magpyr in Carpe Jugulum.* I get the feeling that he is going to turn out to be one of those villains that embraces Contractual Genre Blindness just to fit in with the narrative of it all.






*Yes I know The Giant doesn't read Pratchett, but that's the vibe I'm getting.

[Nilan8888]

It seems very likely that Tarquin is evil. I think it's been stated before but as Porthos mentioned, he did shove Haley out that window.

Frankly, that's actually the most evil thing we've seen any character do since this arc essentially began in "Neutralize Elf". The next worse thing was that Malak was supposedly going to feed Elan to the Empress, but he might have been bluffing on that.

But Tarquin shoving Haley out that window was no bluff.

THe closest thing to 'good' so far of the new characters... and this is still murky, have been the bounty hunters. They haven't personally done anything evil that we've seen. They haven't really been shining examples of Lawful Good either, but they haven't done anything evil.

[ThatRandomBard]

But Tarquin shoving Haley out that window was no bluff.

If he thought it was Nale, then Haley would have been Sabine, and able to fly.
Otherwise, it still seems a bit like a test...

But I still agree. I think Tarquin is evil.

[DreadArchon]

I like how V and Malack can sympathize with each other, regardless of allignment.
What, you think two Neutral Evil people should instinctively hate each other? :smalltongue:

[Shale]

Where are people getting the idea that acting like Elan makes you automatically Chaotic Good? Since when is being goofy in casual conversation lawful, neutral, chaotic, good or evil?

[Amarsir]

This seems right up Rich's alley to have a Lawful Evil guy who's still amiable and cares about his friends and family. Since there seem to be those who inevitably take that as evidence of goodness.

[Acero]

It seems very likely that Tarquin is evil. I think it's been stated before but as Porthos mentioned, he did shove Haley out that window.

But Tarquin shoving Haley out that window was no bluff.



He did that after V said he had feather fall prepared... Tarquin knew he was going to save her. Haley was never in any real danger

[pinwiz]

Where are people getting the idea that acting like Elan makes you automatically Chaotic Good? Since when is being goofy in casual conversation lawful, neutral, chaotic, good or evil?

Or even that liking drama and tropes is airheaded. Yet another reason i'm not makin solid judgement on Tarquin's alignment after 5 strips.

[Gift Jeraff]

General Tarquin knows Nale has killed Elan knows Nale has killed three of his friend's children. Elan knows that Nale has killed several hundred civilians just to set up the pieces for petty revenge and felt his blade through his own flesh, that Thog aided in said murders and hit his girlfriend with a door, and that Sabine is a powerful incarnation of lust...yet they are treated like the Team Rocket of the story...

:nale: No respect, no respect...

Also, I just had a random idea: Tarquin will like Elan more than Nale because the latter failed to live up to his designated alignment (Really, what has Nale done that screamed Lawful besides honor his contract with Xykon?), even if it puts them at odds in the narrative.

And I absolutely LOVE the idea that Elan will have to kill him, with the General being so proud of his son.

[Hwarinengwion]

Just had to hop on the forum and say this strip totally made my day, probably my favorite strip since I am still a dragon. Definitely stocking up on tomato soup the next time I am in the store. :D

[Shatteredtower]

Laughed too hard. Pulled muscles. Well played.

[Thrudh]

Strip 50. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) *Prepares for ninjas*

Technically, Nale is the one who gave us all the background on Elan's father... and Nale is a known liar...

So we really don't know, do we?

[Shale]

Well, seeing as he wasn't actually narrating those two flashback cut-aways, I don't think they're intended to be taken has his accounts, just as quick scenes from their childhood.

[sihnfahl]

He did that after V said he had feather fall prepared... Tarquin knew he was going to save her. Haley was never in any real danger
:vaarsuvius: "Indeed, it is my solitary castable spell remaining."

By splitting :haley: from :elan: and :vaarsuvius:, Tarquin gave the choice. Either cast the spell that would save Haley, but prevent them from escaping, or let Haley fall to her death and save themselves.

Someone of Nale's team would have let Haley die so they could escape. But, at the time, Tarquin didn't know Elan wasn't Nale.

He was testing V's Alignment....

[brionl]

600mg Sodium? 12g Saturated Fat? 4g Transfat? OH. MY. GOD! It's the most evil can of soup ever!!! :smallyuk:

I wonder what mischief Haley is getting up during all this.

[Acero]

:vaarsuvius: "Indeed, it is my solitary castable spell remaining."

By splitting :haley: from :elan: and :vaarsuvius:, Tarquin gave the choice. Either cast the spell that would save Haley, but prevent them from escaping, or let Haley fall to her death and save themselves.

It was a test of V's alignment.

It was a way to keep Elan in the Throneroom. NO alignment tests

[DabblerWizard]

I'm not exactly sure why, but "...That's a can of tomato soup" was funny. :smallsmile:

[StClair]

And there I was expecting the Rules Lawyers to turn up and say that Thermal Detonators are not allowed in this system. Aw, I wanna see those guys again!
Is this D&D 4, then? Because rules for thermal detonators definitely exist for 3.5/d20.

[sihnfahl]

It was a way to keep Elan in the Throneroom. NO alignment tests
If V was a member of Nale's party, Haley would have went splat while Nale jumped out of the window and V cast Feather Fall.

[Kish]

Is this D&D 4, then? Because rules for thermal detonators definitely exist for 3.5/d20.
D20 Future =/=D&D 3.5 edition.

[Swordpriest]

"I have so much to show you, my boy. I think you'll really like what I'm doing here when you ...."

Ominous words for the general of an evil empire to utter, if ever I've heard them. :smallwink:

[UndeadCleric]

My favorite comic so far. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Terrace]

I think the reason Nale has a bounty on him (and mentioned his father denying him) is this: When Nale decided to go betray the Empire of Blood, he tried to get his father's support for the betrayal. His father refused to support him, Nale got ticked off, and ran off. As far as Tarquin is concerned (and here I am assuming that his alignment is Lawful Evil), Nale just went from Lawful Evil to Neutral Evil, or even Chaotic Evil (and any reasonable Lawful Evil type would oppose Chaotic Evil if said CE threatens the LE's empire. It's just good sense). Nale then finds out about the bounty, and hates his father even more.

[sihnfahl]

I think the reason Nale has a bounty on him (and mentioned his father denying him) is this:
Let's not forget he killed 3 of Malack's kids in the doing.

Unless you think Malack would take the killing of 3 of his kids sitting down...

[Querzis]

What's more, even if Elan is Goodness personified, the casting of the ONLY spell V has that might let him escape depends on V casting the spell, not Elan. Bit of a streach to assume it's only dependent on Elan being not Nale.

Elan is still is son, protagonist or not, I doubt he would think that anyone else then is son could be the leader of the group and from a narrative perspective (which is what both he and his son believe in) thats what would make sense too. You know that actually make me realize how the fact that Elan is not the leader doesnt make sense from narrative perspective: hes the goodest character on the team, his twin brother is the leader of the evil group that follow them while is father is the general of a powerful army, he got crazy charisma, hes the one whos going to have a happy ending and he even got a redhead as a girlfriend (and we know all heros want redhead).


Look, you can argue (quite reasonably and IMAO CORRECTLY) that tossing a dangerous escaping fugitive out a window to their own possible death is perfectly allowable for any alignment including Paladin level LG. But you CAN'T argue that there was no risk to Haley in what was done, there are about five ways that could have gone wrong and resulted in a giant SPLAT when she hit. And if you think Haley qualifies as innocent (despite the dangerous fugitive part, and I do think that in this particular case) then that means throwing her out the window shows a lack of respect for and interest in protecting innocent life and an active willingness to risk innocent life for a minor gain. In other words, that's Evil.

Ok so basically you agree that tossing a dangerous escaping fugitive out of a window isnt evil but in this case throwing this dangerous fugitive out of a window is evil because its Haley. How is Tarquin supposed to know that Haley is innocent and, more importantly, shes not innocent! What you wanna argue with the dead guards at the bottom of the tower and their family that Haley was totally morally justified in slaughtering them and that they would have been evil to defend themselves just because shes Haley? You arent evil because you defend yourself when good guys attack your mens and your castle! Evil and good arent two sides in a war, they are moral choice and defending yourself is not evil even if its a saint that attack you (and Haley definitly isnt a saint).

[Rotipher]

Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.

FWIW, there's nothing inherently science fictiony about terms like "thermal" or "detonate". "Thermal" would be a reasonable term for someone like V to use in reference to heat, and "detonate" comes from an old Latin term for "to thunder". Would a "Staff of Thundering Heat" raise eyebrows if it turned up on a magic item list?

Now, the can of tomato soup: that's a real anachronism! ;-)

[Gift Jeraff]

"I have so much to show you, my boy. I think you'll really like what I'm doing here when you ...."

Ominous words for the general of an evil empire to utter, if ever I've heard them. :smallwink:

Does anyone else think he expects Elan to like what he's doing here because it'll be extremely evil and Elan and pals will get to thwart it all?

[pinwiz]

Does anyone else think he expects Elan to like what he's doing here because it'll be extremely evil and Elan and pals will get to thwart it all?

Now i do.... :smallbiggrin:

[Cealocanth]

Nice job on the resulting shock after that "I am your father" thing. it's nice to see V and that albino lizardfolk are relating.

[Ninja'd, like 1000 times!!!!! :smalltongue:]

[Aquillion]

If V was a member of Nale's party, Haley would have went splat while Nale jumped out of the window and V cast Feather Fall.If V were a member of Nale's party, that would mean V was that dark elf, Elan was Nale -- and, by process of elimination, Haley would have been Sabine, who can fly.

[Shale]

That's only if Nale kept traveling with the same people two years later, which we know is not true. We do know he's (presumably) still with Sabine, because they were still together when they fled Azure City, but that's not a guarantee for Tarquin.

[Memplejemple]

It was a way to keep Elan in the Throneroom. NO alignment tests

I agree, but also, it works to separate :haley: from :elan: (not that this was Darth Tarquin's intention).

:elan: must soon choose between his father and :haley:. Of course he will choose the latter.

[Clertar]

I'm predicting Friendly Enemies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FriendlyEnemy) will result. I can honestly see Elan being forced to kill his father, whose dying words will be "I'm so proud of you..."

The two are clearly huge fans of tropes, and even if they are forced to be enemies they will both get a huge kick out of it.

Those are not tropes, even if a certain website made the use of the term very popular. Tropes are figures of speech of the sense (like metaphors), as opposed to puns which are figures of speech of the form.

I'll start campaigning to rename it TVclichés!

(Sometimes the urge to rant about it is too powerful :tongue:)

[DreadArchon]

D20 Future =/=D&D 3.5 edition.
Nonsense. I ported the d20 Future rules for mecha straight into my D&D 3.5 game, the rules mesh just fine. :smallbiggrin:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Those are not tropes, even if a certain website made the use of the term very popular. Tropes are figures of speech of the sense (like metaphors), as opposed to puns which are figures of speech of the form.

I'll start campaigning to rename it TVclichés!

(Sometimes the urge to rant about it is too powerful :tongue:)

They are, in fact, tropes. They are Literary Tropes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)) as opposed to the Linguistic Tropes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(linguistics)) you have identified.

And, as has been argued on that particular website, Tropes are not, in and of themselves, clichés. Rather, tropes can become cliché when used to the point of distracting the audience.

[Drakevarg]

They are, in fact, tropes. They are Literary Tropes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)) as opposed to the Linguistic Tropes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(linguistics)) you have identified.

And, as has been argued on that particular website, Tropes are not, in and of themselves, clichés. Rather, tropes can become cliché when used to the point of distracting the audience.

Also keep in mind that language only exists as it is used. If everyone decided to call them tropes, they're tropes. If everyone called them bananas, they'd be bananas.

[kerberos]

Technically, Nale is the one who gave us all the background on Elan's father... and Nale is a known liar...

So we really don't know, do we?

Actually we do know because the flasback isn't narrated by Nale. First flasback is narrated by Elan (Elan's face is in the corner of the flashback with a text box of him explaining what happened). Second flashback is narrated by Nale and has a Nale face in the corner with him clearly narrating the events. Third and firth flashback are third person omniscient narrator. Those flashbacks have no narration and no faces in the corner, but rather we see what happened and who said what exactly. The fourth flasback in particular shows Nale hitting Elan, something that couldn't possibly be narrated by either Nale or Elan because they don't know the other exists. By extension that mean that the 3rd flashback, which is narrated in the same style and which is the one that tells as Elan's fathers alignment must also be 3rd person omniscient narrated.

[Drakevarg]

On another note, in the comic's entire run, (with the exception of the Drow's "the entire race is nothing but Chaotic Good rebels now", which of course makes no sense even without the Sudden But Inevitable Betrayal) when a character's alignment has been stated in-comic, has it EVER been inaccurate?

[Shale]

Of course it has! Whenever a vaguely sympathetic or cool character is stated to be evil, it's turned out to be incorrect. Because....y'know....look over there!

[factotum]

If V were a member of Nale's party, that would mean V was that dark elf, Elan was Nale -- and, by process of elimination, Haley would have been Sabine, who can fly.

Except V quite clearly is NOT a Dark Elf. If this was Nale, he's clearly changed one of the people he associates with, why not the other?

The simple fact is, Tarquin had no way of knowing that the person he pushed out of the window wouldn't go splat without a Feather Fall, and he had no way of knowing that V would go so far as to save her despite that destroying any chance of himself escaping. Not caring about someone else's wellbeing just to prove a point is Evil, no two ways about it.

[pinwiz]

Except V quite clearly is NOT a Dark Elf. If this was Nale, he's clearly changed one of the people he associates with, why not the other?

The simple fact is, Tarquin had no way of knowing that the person he pushed out of the window wouldn't go splat without a Feather Fall, and he had no way of knowing that V would go so far as to save her despite that destroying any chance of himself escaping. Not caring about someone else's wellbeing just to prove a point is Evil, no two ways about it.

But Tarquin could have been protecting his own well being, eliminating that last remaining threat in front of him. That would be neutral.

So maybe there are two ways about it... :smallwink:

[Wonton]

I seem to be the only one who didn't get the final panel - what exactly is the "theme" they're keeping going here? :smallconfused:

[Shale]

Star Wars.

[Killer Angel]

I seem to be the only one who didn't get the final panel - what exactly is the "theme" they're keeping going here? :smallconfused:

Citations from Star Wars. Before "Empire strikes back", now "Return of the jedi".

[DaveMcW]

I hope Ian Starshine isn't frozen in carbonite :smalleek:

[Herald Alberich]

Except V quite clearly is NOT a Dark Elf. If this was Nale, he's clearly changed one of the people he associates with, why not the other?

Being the one who posted the bounty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html), Tarquin does not know what subtype of elf Zz'dtri was. Just for clarification.

[cc_kizz]

Yay! Vaarsuvius finally gets healed. I like how Elan is eager to show off his scar. Not so much the eagerness, but in answer to his father's question. :-) I didn't realize healings left scars…

[cc_kizz]

Citations from Star Wars. Before "Empire strikes back", now "Return of the jedi".

I need to watch those again. I didn't get that last reference either.

[Nilan8888]

If he thought it was Nale, then Haley would have been Sabine, and able to fly.
Otherwise, it still seems a bit like a test...


Just becuase he might have thought it was Nale doesn't mean that Haley would have been Sabine. First of all Sabine usually morphs into people of her own skin color, whih Haley is not. But besides that, it would be very bad chance to stake a human life on.



He did that after V said he had feather fall prepared... Tarquin knew he was going to save her. Haley was never in any real danger

No he didn't. MAybe V would want to keep the feather fall for himself (which if so, wouldn' t make Elan Nale). Maybe V would have gotten so muddled by Tarquin's entrance that he'd have frozen up. Maybe someone from the throne room might have attacked at that moment and fizzled his spell in mid-sentence.

All these are possibilities that Tarquin could have encountered that would have been, as far as he knew, fatal for Haley.


I still maintain that it's probably not best if EVERYONE we've met is evil, but I think it works very well given his disposition if Tarquin actually is.

[AstralStorm]

"I have a can of soup and I'm not afraid to use it!"

Just think of the mess. Although the Empress could appreciate some soup I bet.

[Fingolfin]

Haha, an excellent and funny continuation of the previous comic, well done :smallsmile:

[danielmayer]

I'm quite sure we'll get some other SW references, as the main charakters (evil ones) are named like SW: Malark = Darth M., Tarquin = Gouvernor Tarkin (first Death Star), ...
I like the strips. I also see the lawyers show up in near future. Don't know how G.Lukas sees intelek.Property, but considering the 20 years silence of new SW-movies, he (George) surely is *L*E ;)

[Dark_Tangente]

Awesome !

The "thermal detonator" joke is just perfect :D

Whooo !

PS : V. and Malack in first panel are also awesome :smallbiggrin:

[binyamin20]

And now Darth Vader! its a total match!

I knew it!!

[snikrept]

Gannji, too, appears to have Trope Radar; perhaps he has levels of Bard (explaining the UMD?)

Also, he's rapidly approaching Too Cool To Die status.:smallbiggrin:

[pjackson]

But Tarquin could have been protecting his own well being, eliminating that last remaining threat in front of him. That would be neutral.


No, That would still be evil. It it were self defense it could be neutral - but they were discussing how to escape not attacking, so it doesn't apply.

[sihnfahl]

Ominous words for the general of an evil empire to utter, if ever I've heard them. :smallwink:
I don't think we'll get a Lando Cloud City event.

Tarquin knows Elan is a protagonist. That means righting wrongs, fighting antagonists, side-quests to fight evil...

Tarquin: Just look what we've done, my boy! We've got slavemasters! They beat the slaves -ruthlessly-, forcing them to work on the Castle almost non-stop. Our legal code is so full of loopholes that if you have a good lawyer, you can pretty much treat poor folks however you like. If you dare fight authority, it's completely within our rights to feed you to a -dragon-.

Doesn't that scream CAMPAIGN to you? Fighting the evil empire, organizing slave revolts, create an underground freedom group, setting up ambushes for slavers, intercepting caravans, fighting off assassins and bounty hunters... it's an adventurers DREAM, my boy!


:elan: must soon choose between his father and :haley:. Of course he will choose the latter.
Who says he has to choose? Tarquin knows Elan is a protagonist now, and is most likely on a Quest, so Tarquin will shoo him off, hopefully in the right direction. Tarquin's familiar enough with protagonists to know Elan can't stick around for a campaign in HIS setting because Elan has another ongoing campaign. EoB isn't a side-quest.

[hamishspence]

Doesn't that scream CAMPAIGN to you? Fighting the evil empire, organizing slave revolts, create an underground freedom group, setting up ambushes for slavers, intercepting caravans, fighting off assassins and bounty hunters... it's an adventurers DREAM, my boy!

I like this. If he does evil specifically in order to create heroes, while this wouldn't excuse it, it would make him a bit like the deities.

Who created dragons, and humanoid races, specifically so they could be fought by adventurers.

"Without evil, there could be no Good. So it must be good to be evil sometimes."

:smallbiggrin:

[Swordpriest]

I don't think we'll get a Lando Cloud City event.

Tarquin knows Elan is a protagonist. That means righting wrongs, fighting antagonists, side-quests to fight evil...

Tarquin: Just look what we've done, my boy! We've got slavemasters! They beat the slaves -ruthlessly-, forcing them to work on the Castle almost non-stop. Our legal code is so full of loopholes that if you have a good lawyer, you can pretty much treat poor folks however you like. If you dare fight authority, it's completely within our rights to feed you to a -dragon-.

Doesn't that scream CAMPAIGN to you? Fighting the evil empire, organizing slave revolts, create an underground freedom group, setting up ambushes for slavers, intercepting caravans, fighting off assassins and bounty hunters... it's an adventurers DREAM, my boy!


I like this idea, and I'd love it if he said exactly that. :smallbiggrin:

[sihnfahl]

it would make him a bit like the deities.
Nay, not like the deities... a being far more powerful.

The GM.

[hamishspence]

Does OoTS have a "GM" in this context? I got the impression that it didn't, and the deities filled a similar role, as creators of monsters and encouragers of adventurers.

It's a bit like the GM in an ordinary game, though.

[Lem]

In #723, Malack told Tarquin, 'I should have known you would go warm-blooded on this one', As I read it, this implicates that Tarquin is at least not as consistently evil as Malack.

[sabremeister]

Giant, you Magnificent Bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard), I'm going to read your books!

(Do you discounts for complete sets?)

[Kish]

"Warm-blooded" is just a racist comment on Tarquin being a mammal, something no one has yet questioned that Tarquin is. "Should have known...on this one" more likely refers to Nale being Tarquin's son than to Tarquin being gentler to most prisoners than Malack is.

[Dalek Kommander]

It was a way to keep Elan in the Throneroom. NO alignment tests

It wouldn't have worked if V was evil, and Tarquin would be foolish to assume that only Nale could have an evil companion. In fact, Elan has ALWAYS had an evil companion as long as we've known him: Would Belkar have ruined his own chances of escape to save Roy? Especially if it was before his delirium-induced epiphany?

[lio45]

Actually we do know because the flasback isn't narrated by Nale. First flasback is narrated by Elan (Elan's face is in the corner of the flashback with a text box of him explaining what happened). Second flashback is narrated by Nale and has a Nale face in the corner with him clearly narrating the events. Third and firth flashback are third person omniscient narrator. Those flashbacks have no narration and no faces in the corner, but rather we see what happened and who said what exactly. The fourth flasback in particular shows Nale hitting Elan, something that couldn't possibly be narrated by either Nale or Elan because they don't know the other exists. By extension that mean that the 3rd flashback, which is narrated in the same style and which is the one that tells as Elan's fathers alignment must also be 3rd person omniscient narrated.

Absolutely correct!

So, QED. Tarquin *is* Lawful Evil.

[hamishspence]

To be more precise, Tarquin *was* Lawful Evil 20 years ago.

He may possibly be of some other alignment now- however, so far there hasn't been any evidence of his alignment not being either Lawful or Evil at the moment.

[lio45]

To be more precise, Tarquin *was* Lawful Evil 20 years ago.

He may possibly be of some other alignment now- however, so far there hasn't been any evidence of his alignment not being either Lawful or Evil at the moment.

Point taken. So, here's the counter-argument about today vs 20 years ago:



http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/Tarkin-1.jpg

Edited to mention how absolutely great I think this piece of work from Bongos was ^

Credit when credit's due. :)

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin knows Elan is a protagonist. That means righting wrongs, fighting antagonists, side-quests to fight evil...

Tarquin: Just look what we've done, my boy! We've got slavemasters! They beat the slaves -ruthlessly-, forcing them to work on the Castle almost non-stop. Our legal code is so full of loopholes that if you have a good lawyer, you can pretty much treat poor folks however you like. If you dare fight authority, it's completely within our rights to feed you to a -dragon-.

The one thing we've seen about Tarquin so far aside form alignment issues is that he's a pretty bright guy. Maybe not a genius, but he's got some dedictive chops.

He's probably mentally prepared for the eventuality of his other son showing up some day. Not to the degree that he actually has anything prepared, but he's probably gone over in his head about what he'd say if that ever happened.

Of course, that presumes he's taken into account that Elan's taken after his mother in the alignment department. Although the fact that he was willing to surrender for Haley should ring some warning bells to him not to schedule a tour of the slave pens just yet. In fact, better to make up another excuse altogether (perhaps... indentured servitude?).

I forsee Tarquin telling a great many fibs to his son about the nature of his work and his Empire. And Elan really wanting to believe it -- and Haley trying to knock sense into him about what this place really is.

Again, I'd rather not all the characters be evil here. Maybe Gannji and Enor don't like what goes on but they long ago accepted it as the cost of doing business in the Empire of Blood and that they couldn't change it. Still, it seems unlikely even those two are of any 'Good' alignment.

[hamishspence]

On Tarquin's being Evil: Similar tropes could be applied to the Monster in the Darkness:

Has scary eyes when first seen- a similar shape to Xykon or the three archfiends, and says "Let me smash the hated Order of the Stick for you!":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html

Joins Redcloak in a "hearty evil villain laugh"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html

Refers to Xykon and Redcloak as "our team"- implying it is on their side:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

And yet, O-Chul says he is "not a bad person":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html

and calls him "a good man":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html

So first impressions can be deceiving.

[sihnfahl]

In fact, better to make up another excuse altogether (perhaps... indentured servitude?).
Haley wouldn't have to tell him. Elan already knows.

Panel Six. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html)
:elan: Plus, I hear there's some sort of slavery, so I'd probably be all up in your business about that.

Red dragon as the ruler. Evil cleric as the spiritual advisor. The entire 'Blood theme just screams evil' bit. Tarquin's armor itself being an evil stereotype (spikes, color, etc). Threatening Haley's life if Elan doesn't surrender.

Tarquin would have to have Bluff that would make Haley proud to pull off a 'this place isn't evil' gambit.

[hamishspence]

He might be able to pull off

"I'm not evil, even if this place is- I'm trying to steer it toward neutrality"

But I don't know if he's likely to try.

[Nilan8888]

Hamish: Yes, but MID never actually does anything evil in those examples. He's just chumming around with evil people. He never actually knowingly knocks someone out a window in order to 'test' someone else. MID's worst actions so far tend to be thinking that he's playing a game.



Plus, I hear there's some sort of slavery, so I'd probably be all up in your business about that.

Red dragon as the ruler. Evil cleric as the spiritual advisor. The entire 'Blood theme just screams evil' bit. Tarquin's armor itself being an evil stereotype (spikes, color, etc). Threatening Haley's life if Elan doesn't surrender.

Tarquin would have to have Bluff that would make Haley proud to pull off a 'this place isn't evil' gambit.

Yes, but he hasn't heard his Dad's 'obviously rational explanation' for how it all looks.

I mean, this is Elan. If this was Roy and Roy's Dad, yeah: Roy's too smart to fall for anything like that, especially from his Dad, and Eugene knows it. That is, if Eugene was evil which he's not -- he's just a jerk a fair amount of the time.

But Elan's the sort to be easily talked into believing the best in everyone. I mean in his blowout with V in the last book, a lot of it was becuase V WASN'T trying to sugarcoat his attitude and was giving Elan his straight-up motivations.

And that's with regular people. This is his DAD.

The moment his Dad says "yeah those slaves down there aren't actually slaves", it won't take much for Elan to bend in the opposite opinion, especially if his Dad prevents him from going down there to talk to any of the slaves.

Tarquin seems like he's got the Bluffing chops, and he's bluffing to someone that's going to swallow what he's selling.

What complicates things of course, immediately, is Haley, who's going to have a mega-problem with it all. What V does concerning the situation will be interesting.

And then there's the whole matter of what Roy, Durkon and Belkar are all doing right now... whew...

[sihnfahl]

But I don't know if he's likely to try.
Which would fall under a 'future redemption' plot. Something both would be familiar with.

Elan comes back after dealing with Xykon, works with his (LN?) Dad to overthrow the red dragon and Malack, (LN?) Dad takes over and revises the laws of the country (but most likely dies in the attempt), in which case Elan helps folks set up a new LN government, culminating when Elan does the Protagonist thing and moves on, knowing he Did Good.

But that's all a future Campaign; Elan is under a time constraint and can't deal with that yet.


Tarquin seems like he's got the Bluffing chops, and he's bluffing to someone that's going to swallow what he's selling.
Elan's a bard - and his bardic knowledge seems to be screaming 'evil' left and right at him.

[Wormwood74]

To be more precise, Tarquin *was* Lawful Evil 20 years ago.

He may possibly be of some other alignment now- however, so far there hasn't been any evidence of his alignment not being either Lawful or Evil at the moment.

We have the fact that he kept his word (including the spirit of it) when he promised "no harm will come to you" to Elan.

If he were completely evil, by the wording of his promise he could have had the guard chuck V out window onto the ground 100 feet below immediately after Elan surrendered.

So, we have reason to suspect he's lawful (keeps his word, including the spirit).

As for evil...meh...all we know is he hasn't kicked any puppies...lately. Killing V after Elan surrendered would have been counter-productive (assuming he wants his son to like him after the big reveal).

[Nilan8888]

Elan's a bard - and his bardic knowledge seems to be screaming 'evil' left and right at him.

Yes, to which I retort again: IT'S ELAN.

(not trying to be rude or anything -- jsut emphasizing).

[dps]

Actually we do know because the flasback isn't narrated by Nale. First flasback is narrated by Elan (Elan's face is in the corner of the flashback with a text box of him explaining what happened). Second flashback is narrated by Nale and has a Nale face in the corner with him clearly narrating the events. Third and firth flashback are third person omniscient narrator. Those flashbacks have no narration and no faces in the corner, but rather we see what happened and who said what exactly. The fourth flasback in particular shows Nale hitting Elan, something that couldn't possibly be narrated by either Nale or Elan because they don't know the other exists. By extension that mean that the 3rd flashback, which is narrated in the same style and which is the one that tells as Elan's fathers alignment must also be 3rd person omniscient narrated.

Of course, the lawyer in the flashback could have been lying. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, I have no problem looking at Tarquin as LE. There's strong evidence--almost compelling evidence--from what we've actually seen for him to be Lawful, some fairly good evidence for him being Evil, and no evidence for him to be any other alignment. In fact, I consider the evidence for him being Evil stronger than the evidence for the EOB being evil.

[Darcy]

I don't see why it's such a big deal if he's still evil. I doubt he would still have his job if he weren't, and more notably, one of the most popular characters in the comic is unambiguously, utterly evil. I haven't seen any evidence of him being a "reformed" evil warlord so I assume he still is.

[Doug Lampert]

Ok so basically you agree that tossing a dangerous escaping fugitive out of a window isnt evil but in this case throwing this dangerous fugitive out of a window is evil because its Haley. How is Tarquin supposed to know that Haley is innocent and, more importantly, shes not innocent! What you wanna argue with the dead guards at the bottom of the tower and their family that Haley was totally morally justified in slaughtering them and that they would have been evil to defend themselves just because shes Haley? You arent evil because you defend yourself when good guys attack your mens and your castle! Evil and good arent two sides in a war, they are moral choice and defending yourself is not evil even if its a saint that attack you (and Haley definitly isnt a saint).

He KNOWS there's a real chance Elan is not Nale and thus that Haley is there because she was associating with someone guilty of NO CRIME in the EoB.

Guilty of NO CRIME, that's innocent.

He KNOWS she's about 50-50 chance or better innocent because HE KNOWS he put a bounty out that could well result in the wrong person getting dragged in.

Further, she's therefor JUSTIFIED in attempting to escape, this isn't like Miko and the order where they were actually guilty of the crime and you can question Miko's jurisdiction to justify resisting her. In this case Haley is attempting to escape totally unjustified imprisonment and an agent of the empire has ALREADY indicated that if they ARE innocent then they're of no use so he may as well feed them to the dragon.

Questioning Haley's innocence in this context is silly. Questioning her justification to attempt to escape with lethal force is insane. Questioning that dear old dad KNEW he was likely as not throwing an innocent out the window outright contradicts the text of the strip.

He's evil. Try saying it. It doesn't actually hurt you at all to admit it.

[Drakevarg]

I don't see why it's such a big deal if he's still evil. I doubt he would still have his job if he weren't, and more notably, one of the most popular characters in the comic is unambiguously, utterly evil. I haven't seen any evidence of him being a "reformed" evil warlord so I assume he still is.

Are you refering to Xykon or Belkar?

...well, I suppose Belkar's taken a half-step away from "utterly evil"...

[Darcy]

Either one actually, hahaha. I meant Belkar. He's gotten better at manipulating people into thinking he's good, or at least not a sociopathic murderer, but his intentions are still to maximize his potential for slaughtering people and amassing loot.

[pinwiz]

Sign me up for the group that doesn't think pushing haley out of the window was an evil act. He knew V could save her. He protected himself by eliminating the biggest threat. He could have even just saved their lives, as they had taken lots of damage and were about to try and escape from a guard infested palace.

All in all, I don't think the window push was evil. Though regardless, we haven't seen enough of Tarquin (besides the lawyer scene) to know his alignment solidly.

[Gift Jeraff]

I forgot to say this in the last discussion thread, so I'll say it now: Will people give Tarquin the same actor as Elan/Nale in the countless "Who would portray which OOTS character?" threads?

[sihnfahl]

He knew V could save her.
Could and would are different. He didn't know anything about V, except that the wizard only had one castable spell left for the day. The question was who the wizard would cast it on.

[pinwiz]

Could and would are different. He didn't know anything about V, except that the wizard only had one castable spell left for the day. The question was who the wizard would cast it on.

And he made the correct decision. He had just heard them talking about all escaping. He also talked V into saving her.

[LadyFirehawk]

He KNOWS there's a real chance Elan is not Nale and thus that Haley is there because she was associating with someone guilty of NO CRIME in the EoB.

Guilty of NO CRIME, that's innocent.



I am going to interject and be horribly pedantic for a moment. In a legal sense, 'not guilty' and 'innocent' are NOT the same thing-- as an example, someone can be found 'not guilty by reason of insanity', yet they still committed the crime and are by definition not innocent.

All lawyer jokes aside, a link (http://www.massbar.org/about-the-mba/press-room/journalists%27-handbook/6-not-guilty-does-not-mean-innocent) for those interested. :smallcool:

As to Tarquin: my bets are on his alignment being as stated in the comic, but we shall see what else the Giant has up his sleeve. (Also, I really want some Thermal Detonator soup now...)

[Teleporker]

Does OoTS have a "GM" in this context? I got the impression that it didn't, and the deities filled a similar role, as creators of monsters and encouragers of adventurers.

It's a bit like the GM in an ordinary game, though.

Why it certainly does have a GM! His name is Rich Burlew, a.k.a. "The Giant", and he makes the gods of his world drunk-dance around while hurling bolts of lightning towards the Earth!

[phantomreader42]

On the alignment thing Tarquin seemed to change personality when he took his helmet off - from well spoken genius to Elan-like dork. So maybe he's a Jekyll and Hyde type.

When I read this I thought "helm of opposite alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm)" :P

[Kish]

Why it certainly does have a GM! His name is Rich Burlew, a.k.a. "The Giant", and he makes the gods of his world drunk-dance around while hurling bolts of lightning towards the Earth!
He's the writer. No game=no GM. :smalltongue:

[Roy III]

What V does concerning the situation will be interesting.


:vaarsuvius:
"Disentegrate. Gust of Wind."

[Richard J.]

Well, Elan's father is so Elan-ish it's scary. He's developing quickly.

Malack is getting more characterization by the strip too, seeing him healing V and such after accepting that Elan wasn't Nale and the detail about his kids is interesting. Perhaps this arc will see the Linear Guild's return and a revenge attempt by Malack? Somehow I think a fight with an albino "lizgreaper" and Nale would be quite awesome. :smallamused:

"That's a can of tomato soup" just became a favorite quote.

[sihnfahl]

Perhaps this arc will see the Linear Guild's return and a revenge attempt by Malack?
Last we saw of the LG, they were still on the Northern Continent.

And unlikely that the LG would be anywhere near the Empire. It'd be Sabine, Thog and Nale against a red dragon, a decent-level cleric, a decent-level (well, whatever Tarquin is), an army of mooks, every bounty hunter looking for them...

Nale might be arrogant, but that would be just suicidal.

[Skaven]

I love that lizardman, I want him to join the party. He's so awesome.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I like this comic, obviously, or I wouldn't be here. I've seen others post about "<fluid I was drinking> coming out of my nose" reactions before, but I'd never experienced quite that level of reaction, despite finding the comic amusing in each strip.

"Because I'm holding a THERMAL DETONATOR!", while not thrusting fluids out of my nose (I wasn't drinking anything at the time, but still), hit that level of mirth for me. Bravo.


Y'know, the joke was funny, but it seems like he could have used something a bit less... sci-fi than a thermal detonator.Perhaps as low tech as a can of tomato soup?

To the "Tarquin isn't evil" camp, have we forgotten that his mistress is a red dragon? That his nation not only endorses slavery, but has slavery so deeply entrenched that the slave drivers are unionized and receive the sympathies of other portions of the populace? That there are clearly evil npcs at other high ranking positions within the social structure?

Not being a ravening, child eating, dog kicking evil person != not being an evil person. The prior behavior is CE. We are witnessing the accurate depiction of a LE society. One where the bounty hunter who brings in the wrong quarry is still paid off in part due to their good faith in attempting to fulfill a contract, where once the group which was captured is determined to not be the one you wanted, heals are cast to restore the wronged individuals to full health. Where Tarquin can be as drama and trope focused as he feels he needs to be, and still not have to kick a puppy to be known to be evil. He just learned about the supposed death of his son, Nale, and rather than showing any angst (at all, just look at the grin on his face) he sympathized with Malack who was wishing the worst torments of hell upon Nale... He just patted a Red Dragon and said "Certainly, my liege. Don't fret your pretty red head" in the prior strip, and people still wonder about his alignment? He would need to be a master of disguise to hide any non-evil alignment in this kind of society.

[kerberos]

Are you refering to Xykon or Belkar?

...well, I suppose Belkar's taken a half-step away from "utterly evil"...

I don't agree, if Belkars alignment is shifting, even partially, it's from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic evil rather than from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Evil. He's learning to pay token respect to society's rules when people are watching so that he may exercise his psychopathic tendencies with less restraint when no one is watching. No less evil, but somewhat less chaotic, though probably not enough to turn him into neutral evil.

[doodthedud]

"You know, I deliberately never told your brother about you, just to increase the dramatic tension. How'd that work out?"

*Elan starts to lift shirt* "Wanna see my scar?"

xD!

[Porthos]

As I just said in the Elan's father's alignment thread, would the fact that the Celestial Deva had concerns over Roy dangling The Oracle outside a window show that shoving someone else out of a window might be viewed as something at least a little bit evil?

Yes, Roy explained it away with a joke. But the Deva still brought it up anyway. Which suggests to me that while it wasn't the biggest thing in the world, it was potentially still a "black mark", even if it was a minor one.

And before people point out that Tarquin "knew" that V would save Haley, I would point out that Roy "knew" whether or not he would really let The Oracle fall. Thus the situations are similar.

So it's not the Biggest Evil in the world. And, yes, the fact that a good character could "get away with it" is telling. On the other hand, if the only action we every saw of Roy was dangling the poor old Oracle out of a window... Well, some people might have a few questions about his alignment as well.

And since we don't have many signs of Tarquin's Alignment at the moment, I'll take what I can get. :smallwink:

BTW: I'm not saying that Tarquin shoving Haley out of a window is proof of Tarquin being evil. I've already been over that. All I am saying is that a somewhat similar situation in OotSLand has been described as (potentially) evil and therefore it's a pretty good likelyhood that shoving Haley out of a window might be an (potentially) evil act as well.

Totally concentrating on the window situation here. Nothing more. :smallsmile:

[Kareasint]

Last we saw of the LG, they were still on the Northern Continent.

And unlikely that the LG would be anywhere near the Empire. It'd be Sabine, Thog and Nale against a red dragon, a decent-level cleric, a decent-level (well, whatever Tarquin is), an army of mooks, every bounty hunter looking for them...

Nale might be arrogant, but that would be just suicidal.

Nale isn't coming back to this country unless he has a full army. He will want minions to throw at the Cleric and his father. I suspect that Nale is making for the Kraagor's Gate to the North.

[hamishspence]

He just learned about the supposed death of his son, Nale, and rather than showing any angst (at all, just look at the grin on his face) he sympathized with Malack who was wishing the worst torments of hell upon Nale...

He wasn't even in the room when Elan explained how Nale died:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html

And when Malack mentions it, he's not grinning:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html

although he's not showing any sign of grief, either.

Given that he put out the bounty on Nale, and given Nale's crimes, why exactly would he be angsting?

I'm happy to concede that Tarquin is highly likely to be evil- but it's still worth remembering that some characters in a similar position to Tarquin (general in an evil empire), in D&D splatbooks, have been Neutral rather than Evil.