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View Full Version : The Death of a Mary Sue: How much is too much?



Melamoto
2010-05-18, 02:18 AM
Ok, for a campaign I'm planning that may or may not see the light of day at some point, I intend for there to be dark elements and maybe just a little bit of horror sprinkled here and there. Not by making every enemy evil abominations, or things like that; more like adding in things which genuinely morally repulse the actual players (Not things which just repulse them, like a pus demon). The horror, I was trying to think of ways to make it actually work; make it so that the players are constantly on edge rather than genuinely scared, since it's pretty much accepted that trying to actually do such a thing is madness.

For one of these such encounters, near or at the beginning of the campaign, I intend to let players know just how dangerous it will be by creating and sacrificing a Mary Sue character. Basically, the idea is to introduce some blatant DMPC (Probably a Paladin) who outshines the rest of the party by far. He leads them into some dark and dangerous dungeon, where he beats all of the enemies along the way without breaking a sweat. Then, as the group enters the dungeon, as it looks like the same thing is going to be happening for the rest of the campaign, a shadowy hand reaches out of nowhere and crushes the DMPCs head, all the lights go out, and the entrance closes shut, leaving nothing but darkness and whispering, scratching noises coming from the distance.

The problem with a plan like this, obviously, is just how much is too much? If the DMPC stays with the party for too long before the dungeon, then the players will just get bored, and the subsequent dangerous solo adventure won't be worth it for them. On the other hand, if they only meet him for a single battle beforehand, it will just seem like a random, pointless death to show how powerful my great dungeon is, rather than the sudden and rather anticlimactic death of a character who most will be expecting to be protected by the power of plot. For the combat, I was planning on having the PCs defeat the blatantly weak enemies while the DMPC beats all of the really tough enemies; to stop the PCs getting bored in combat with nothing to do, and only annoyed that they are being overshadowed like this.

So; what exactly do I do about this? How long is too long to run him for? And more importantly, is it a good idea anyway? Would the players actually appreciate this as an interesting way of setting the scene, or would they just be left thinking "What an ass pull" by the end of it? Thoughts? Opinions?

Tyrandar
2010-05-18, 02:24 AM
Mary Sues are almost always a bad idea. If you absolutely must, have it stay with the party until such point at which they long to see him/her dead. Then kill him/her in the most painful way possible. Your players will find it very cathartic.

AslanCross
2010-05-18, 02:25 AM
I think he might be more interesting for the PCs if he's sort of a rival character. He turns up regularly as the PCs go through the dungeon. He apparently has the same goals, makes it a point to obstruct the PCs, is very difficult to beat, and manages to get away every time. When the time for you to yank him off the stage comes, he dies the way you described.

WildPyre
2010-05-18, 02:27 AM
I'm planning something slightly similar. In order to express to my players just exactly when the manure has come in contact with the fan, I plan on killing off my "DMPC". I'm hoping this will do a few things... show the players just how serious the situation is... show them that people CAN and WILL die without being able to just get them raised... and if I do it right... get my players good an mad at the BBEG and out for his blood.


Instead of using a powerful Mary Sue though, I'm using a cute bard. Playing her as very friendly to the people in the group and trying to get everyone to invest themselves emotionaly in their bard party member... and then I'm going to have her get cut off mid song, a henchman standing behind her with a magically gloved hand shoved through her chest and literally holding her soul.

Hopefully this will bring out some sort of reaction in all of my players, if not the same reaction from each one. People don't normally shrug off their friend having her soul ripped out violently and unexpectedly. :smallbiggrin:

Tyrandar
2010-05-18, 02:47 AM
[H]e's sort of a rival character. He turns up regularly as the PCs go through the dungeon. He apparently has the same goals, makes it a point to obstruct the PCs, is very difficult to beat, and manages to get away every time.

You mean sort of like... this?

http://myspace.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1220933487974.jpg.[roflposters.com].myspace.jpg

Ashram
2010-05-18, 03:20 AM
I'm planning something slightly similar. In order to express to my players just exactly when the manure has come in contact with the fan, I plan on killing off my "DMPC". I'm hoping this will do a few things... show the players just how serious the situation is... show them that people CAN and WILL die without being able to just get them raised... and if I do it right... get my players good an mad at the BBEG and out for his blood.


Instead of using a powerful Mary Sue though, I'm using a cute bard. Playing her as very friendly to the people in the group and trying to get everyone to invest themselves emotionaly in their bard party member... and then I'm going to have her get cut off mid song, a henchman standing behind her with a magically gloved hand shoved through her chest and literally holding her soul.

Hopefully this will bring out some sort of reaction in all of my players, if not the same reaction from each one. People don't normally shrug off their friend having her soul ripped out violently and unexpectedly. :smallbiggrin:

For some reason, I get the mental image of a certain flower girl with a certain villain's giant katana through her when I read this.

Farlion
2010-05-18, 03:43 AM
Why use a DMPC? A PC will do just as fine and will also tell your players, that the PCs life is at stake, not the DMPCs. :smallbiggrin:

I know, its kinda sadistic, but killing a DMPC that outshines the party will only let the PCs smile. If you really want to just kill a DMPC let it be a DMPC they care for. Someone who is nice, helped them, but without taking the spotlight. He doesn't even have to be more powerful. On the other hand, I don't like this "raildroading" thing about the crushing hand. It makes the PCs believe, that they cannot do anything about the impending doom (which naturally, they can't if the DM insists, but it usually hurts the game).

It would be much more effective, if the PCs blew all their resources, trying to save the DMPC but in the end they fail by a very very small amount. If your PCs are really lucky though, they should manage to save the DMPC. Your PCs will probably notice how dangerous it is even without the DMPC dying if you let them sweat enough.

Cheers,
Farlion

Rad
2010-05-18, 03:55 AM
I turn my lot in the rival field. PCs tend to respect their rivals and enemies way more than they do overshadowing allies. Your plan might come up with a reaction like "Oh, at last the DM realized that this stupid DMPC was a bad idea and removed it. Of course he HAD to show off one last time what a cool death this character deserved but we can live with it; let's forget about the whole thing and hope we can do something good already".
This is especially true if they had a bad DMPC experience in the past.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-18, 04:03 AM
Rather than making the DMPC some ubercharacter, try this:

On par with the party. Competent in combat, about balanced with the group.

Chosen for having a skill that the party doesn't. I love tracking, or guide.

Put in an obstacle. Have the DMPC "go on ahead" to secure a rope for the party.

Then have the rope jerked out like a scene from a Jaws movie, along with a scream.

This will accomplish several aims:

1) It's not a DMPC. It's a hireling.
2) The character is PC level in terms of combat ability. It will underscore the danger of splitting up.
3) It won't bore the party, as your golden boy hacks down row after row of monsters.

Indeed, the biggest "solo" that your guy should do is, "wait, see these? They're rust monster tracks, and it went down that hallway. Best to avoid that one for now."

paddyfool
2010-05-18, 04:05 AM
Either a rival, or an NPC who doesn't actively overshadow them (maybe a mentor/questgiver). Being actively overshadowed, especially at the start, just won't be any fun for them.

Also, maybe give them the opportunity to loot his corpse, and if they take it, give them extra problems with getting the blame for his demise when they show up toting his gear around (assuming they don't simply give it straight to his widow/temple/whatever).

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-18, 04:31 AM
Either a rival, or an NPC who doesn't actively overshadow them (maybe a mentor/questgiver). Being actively overshadowed, especially at the start, just won't be any fun for them.

Also, maybe give them the opportunity to loot his corpse, and if they take it, give them extra problems with getting the blame for his demise when they show up toting his gear around (assuming they don't simply give it straight to his widow/temple/whatever).

Who says giving it to the widow is a free pass? What if she blames them for the death anyway, either thinking the pc's did it, or that they were responsible because they dragged him along.

Nothing spells moral quandary like a grief stricken widow hiring assassins to kill her husband's "murderers"...

Piedmon_Sama
2010-05-18, 04:34 AM
WTF kind of PCs would have a moral quandary about that? "Welp, too bad your grief drove you nuts, see you in hell" seems like the pat response to me.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-18, 04:41 AM
WTF kind of PCs would have a moral quandary about that? "Welp, too bad your grief drove you nuts, see you in hell" seems like the pat response to me.

Depends. I've had numerous PC's happily take up such cases. Powerful travellers carried some schmuck off to die, and now the village wants "justice".

Tengu_temp
2010-05-18, 04:43 AM
WTF kind of PCs would have a moral quandary about that? "Welp, too bad your grief drove you nuts, see you in hell" seems like the pat response to me.

Any good-aligned character? "I know you're innocent and just misguided, but you attacked me so I can kill you now" is at best a neutral stance.

paddyfool
2010-05-18, 04:44 AM
WTF kind of PCs would have a moral quandary about that? "Welp, too bad your grief drove you nuts, see you in hell" seems like the pat response to me.

...

Nearly all good-aligned PCs, and some neutral? Heck, even some evil if killing her would be detrimental to their reputation. It's morally far better to convince your opponent that they're in the wrong than to kill them, never mind how "murdering a Paladin's widow" would look as a charge against them.

Piedmon_Sama
2010-05-18, 04:59 AM
"I thought you killed my husband" is a pretty poor excuse and I wouldn't make a character rub "good" off his alignment sheet just because he acted to defend himself against someone who's tried to kill him. If the wife can't fight herself, then presumably you can turn her over to the authorities to be executed for conspiracy to murder (or whatever you want to call hiring assassins) or execute her yourself. The latter might be a chaotic act, but it's no more evil than wiping out the orc raiding band threatening your village or whatever.

paddyfool
2010-05-18, 05:10 AM
Vigilante murder is still murder (and is the very same thing that the widow in question would be guilty of). It isn't self-defense if they don't make a decent attempt to prove to her that she's got it wrong, and it isn't necessarily even lawful to make sure she ends up with the authorities - see the Trash episode of Firefly for an example of this.

But no, I wouldn't make a character "rub good off" their sheet for this. Alignments should not be straightjackets, and interpretations differ.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-18, 05:11 AM
What you're describing is a neutral justification. The woman isn't thinking straight and the characters know it - a good character would try to reason with her, and use non-lethal means of defense against her.

Are you really comparing a grief-stricken widow to an orc raiding party?

And hello, alignment debate! Better go with it somewhere else before the thread gets completely offtopic.

Prodan
2010-05-18, 05:16 AM
The death should involve tentacles.

Hal
2010-05-18, 05:27 AM
I like several of the ideas presented here so far. My 2 coppers to throw in: If you want to go the route of "This NPC is really powerful," you'll get a much better effect via the suggestion of power than any specific display of power.

For example, anybody in your party have "Detect Good"? It hurts their eyes to look at him if they use it. Or maybe they see him turn undead, and he utterly annihilates a bunch of zombies with little effort. He could even carry, say, a Holy Avenger (which could become a simple cold iron longsword in the player hands), and after he gets dragged off into the darkness the players find only the sword left behind, or maybe broken into pieces.

Melamoto
2010-05-18, 05:31 AM
Thanks for the responses everyone, the idea of it being a rival is interesting, and something I could work with; same with a friendly NPC, although not quite as good as a replacement imo. I think at this point though I should point out the reason why I made it such an annoying Mary Sue in the OP: For the best mood switch. The death of a powerful rival or average ally in such a way does give the players a sudden sense of fear, but it ends up as just a tragedy that the players aren't likely to really care about so much.

If it's a Mary Sue character who none of them will mourn, then I figured it would elicit the biggest "Oh crap" reaction from the players, since a regular tag-along NPC can almost be expected to die, while a blatantly overpowered DMPC is something that most players will be expecting to be invincible, and so delivers a bigger shock to the players themselves when they die. Although yes, this does come with the problem that the players may think it was just done to fix a mistake rather than to shock them.

paddyfool
2010-05-18, 05:53 AM
I still think it's better not to have a Mary Sue character in the first place. Or if they are around, to make them only have a very brief presence before they get horribly devoured.

AslanCross
2010-05-18, 07:34 AM
You mean sort of like... this?

http://myspace.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1220933487974.jpg.[roflposters.com].myspace.jpg

Can't seem to view the image.


I still think it's better not to have a Mary Sue character in the first place. Or if they are around, to make them only have a very brief presence before they get horribly devoured.

I wouldn't put in a Mary Sue in the first place, even if it's to annoy the players. It's probably doable if your players expect it, but I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

Learnedguy
2010-05-18, 07:51 AM
Wait. What was the point of even introducing the character in the first place again?

Greenish
2010-05-18, 07:54 AM
Wait. What was the point of even introducing the character in the first place again?The worf effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect).

Amphetryon
2010-05-18, 07:58 AM
Ok, for a campaign I'm planning that may or may not see the light of day at some point, I intend for there to be dark elements and maybe just a little bit of horror sprinkled here and there. Not by making every enemy evil abominations, or things like that; more like adding in things which genuinely morally repulse the actual players (Not things which just repulse them, like a pus demon). The horror, I was trying to think of ways to make it actually work; make it so that the players are constantly on edge rather than genuinely scared, since it's pretty much accepted that trying to actually do such a thing is madness.

For one of these such encounters, near or at the beginning of the campaign, I intend to let players know just how dangerous it will be by creating and sacrificing a Mary Sue character. Basically, the idea is to introduce some blatant DMPC (Probably a Paladin) who outshines the rest of the party by far. He leads them into some dark and dangerous dungeon, where he beats all of the enemies along the way without breaking a sweat. Then, as the group enters the dungeon, as it looks like the same thing is going to be happening for the rest of the campaign, a shadowy hand reaches out of nowhere and crushes the DMPCs head, all the lights go out, and the entrance closes shut, leaving nothing but darkness and whispering, scratching noises coming from the distance.

The problem with a plan like this, obviously, is just how much is too much? If the DMPC stays with the party for too long before the dungeon, then the players will just get bored, and the subsequent dangerous solo adventure won't be worth it for them. On the other hand, if they only meet him for a single battle beforehand, it will just seem like a random, pointless death to show how powerful my great dungeon is, rather than the sudden and rather anticlimactic death of a character who most will be expecting to be protected by the power of plot. For the combat, I was planning on having the PCs defeat the blatantly weak enemies while the DMPC beats all of the really tough enemies; to stop the PCs getting bored in combat with nothing to do, and only annoyed that they are being overshadowed like this.

So; what exactly do I do about this? How long is too long to run him for? And more importantly, is it a good idea anyway? Would the players actually appreciate this as an interesting way of setting the scene, or would they just be left thinking "What an ass pull" by the end of it? Thoughts? Opinions?

So, you want to show that the only way the PCs have a chance in the beginning is by relying on your Mary Sue, while relegating them to mop-up duties 'to stop the PCs from getting bored in combat'? That doesn't seem like it would have that effect, IMO.

Then, you want to have a bigger bad guy come along and one-shot your Mary Sue, and have your PCs have some reaction other than 'Well, the only character that was keeping us from getting consistently slaughtered just got killed with one hit. I think we're doomed. Crap." Is that correct? Again, that doesn't seem like it would have that effect, IMO.

The players I've known would all cry foul at having D&D reduced to a spectator sport in this fashion. YMMV.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-18, 08:21 AM
Rather than making this DMPC all kick ass and defeating the monsters, make him the party buffer / healer.

Make him cast healing spells way over the normal party level. Maybe have him deal out a bunch of awesome buffs. Keep the encounters while he's with the party balanced based on the idea that this guy will heal them all up, almost indefinitely. They should only just make it through these fights, but then get fixed up fine for the next one.

That way the PCs get to do all the work, they get to have all the fun of killing the bad guys - but they also get to rely on him fixing them up after a fight, and boosting them to dish out the devastation during the fight... so when he's suddenly killed, they might feel a little more worried.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-18, 09:01 AM
Ok, for a campaign I'm planning that may or may not see the light of day at some point, I intend for there to be dark elements and maybe just a little bit of horror sprinkled here and there. Not by making every enemy evil abominations, or things like that; more like adding in things which genuinely morally repulse the actual players (Not things which just repulse them, like a pus demon). The horror, I was trying to think of ways to make it actually work; make it so that the players are constantly on edge rather than genuinely scared, since it's pretty much accepted that trying to actually do such a thing is madness.Good idea.


For one of these such encounters, near or at the beginning of the campaign, I intend to let players know just how dangerous it will be by creating and sacrificing a Mary Sue character. Basically, the idea is to introduce some blatant DMPC (Probably a Paladin) who outshines the rest of the party by far. He leads them into some dark and dangerous dungeon, where he beats all of the enemies along the way without breaking a sweat. Then, as the group enters the dungeon, as it looks like the same thing is going to be happening for the rest of the campaign, a shadowy hand reaches out of nowhere and crushes the DMPCs head, all the lights go out, and the entrance closes shut, leaving nothing but darkness and whispering, scratching noises coming from the distance.Bad implementation.


The problem with a plan like this, obviously, is just how much is too much? It's all too much. All of it. I really don't have a critique other than the entire concept needs to be taken back to the drawing board.

Dr.Epic
2010-05-18, 09:03 AM
You mean sort of like... this?

http://myspace.roflposters.com/images/rofl/myspace/1220933487974.jpg.[roflposters.com].myspace.jpg

Well all my childhood memories are now scarred.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-18, 10:24 AM
Healbot.

Make it so that he's obviously very strong, but mainly restricts himself to a healing role. Maybe he one-shots anything that attacks him, preferably with a quickened spell after he uses his main action to heal someone/buff someone.

Then have him get one-shotted. This means they lose their healer, AND he wasn't a weak character, and they **** themselves.

Melamoto
2010-05-18, 10:31 AM
Healbot.

Make it so that he's obviously very strong, but mainly restricts himself to a healing role. Maybe he one-shots anything that attacks him, preferably with a quickened spell after he uses his main action to heal someone/buff someone.

Then have him get one-shotted. This means they lose their healer, AND he wasn't a weak character, and they **** themselves.

Based on the responses so far, I guess this is probably the best way to do it, if at all. Again, the reason I was using a DMPC was because it would be the most unexpected victim, but I guess it looks like it wouldn't be worth it in the end.

Gametime
2010-05-18, 10:36 AM
It is possible to make a character that is demonstrably stronger than the rest of the party, but not so much so that he overcomes all challenges single-handedly. Having a powerful DMPC that isn't a Mary Sue is a tricky balance, but it is doable. Done right, it should achieve the same sense of fear upon his death while not making the players resent his presence so much.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-18, 10:50 AM
When using a high-power DMPC, you have to think like playing a batman wizard.

Sure, you can solo the encounter without any help. But your friends aren't going to enjoy playing if you do that every time. Whereas if you make the fight easier for them by playing battlefield control/buffer/debuffer, everyone is involved and has fun.

Same with the DMPC. Watching him destroy encounters isn't playing, it's a cut-scene. And endless cut-scenes aren't fun. Whereas, if he plays support REALLY well, it's obvious he's very powerful, but holding back (even better if you make it obvious he's trying to not use too much power to avoid drawing attentionfrom something.)

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-18, 11:01 AM
I'm going to throw my vote in for the rival, too. It's just a better narrative. Simple as that. Playing with deliberately bad/annoying concepts will just make your Players liable to second guess you as a DM, and the way you originally describe could very well have them end up feeling like they can't get attached to their character because you'll likely one-shot them any second.

Which sounds like the opposite of what you want? Or something like that.

Set the rival up as a genuinely cool recurring foe. Give him depth, and give him a nice broad archetype, the kind that comes with an obvious narrative arc. (So that when he's gutted before you've even really left the prologue, it'll be more suprising.)
Perhaps "Everyone knows" that he's a hero of prophesy, fated to do something or other important or cool sounding.
Perhaps he has a tragic quest to find an artefact to restore his beloved from (horrible fate of choice)
etc.

Playing up the Rival element as opposed to the Enemy element will also add contrast to the whole thing, and put the idea in the players heads that maybe there are opponants out there who are worth knocking out rather than simply gutting?

And if he's been successful up until the reveal in his competition with the party, they'll likely be releaved to see him go (if you're good at it, also conflicted). It also fits as a nice narrative twist if he's bragging, trash talking, or genuinely congratulating the PC's at the moment that he's taken.

You could even do the 'hit' at the end of a scuffle between the PC's and the Rival / His party, so that you can be vague about the nature AND capability of the dark shadowy threat, because he was powerful, but you HAD just finished a pretty serious scuffle...
And so on.

Yukitsu
2010-05-18, 11:58 AM
This tends to backfire for my DM in one of several ways. My favourite example is thus:

Session begins:
BBEG monologue...
DM: ...And the dark lord hurls a terrible blast of blah blah blah.
Me: I cast lesser celerity from my wand and jump in front of it.
DM: You what?
Me: I'm jumping in front of it. I'm the tank and I've jumped in front of all of the other attacks hitting your DMPC (I was its bodyguard)
DM: (wheels turning in head. Knew I was one of like, 2 of the party PCs that could even hurt the BBEG)
Me: I guess if it kills me, since I'm the only remaining original party member, and thus the only one that is trying to thwart this guy, I can roll up a new character, and we could start working towards something else?
DM: Uh, does 75 damage kill you?
Me: No.
DM: Uh, OK. Let's take a 15 minute break here.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-18, 12:18 PM
Healbot.

Make it so that he's obviously very strong, but mainly restricts himself to a healing role. Maybe he one-shots anything that attacks him, preferably with a quickened spell after he uses his main action to heal someone/buff someone.

Then have him get one-shotted. This means they lose their healer, AND he wasn't a weak character, and they **** themselves.
Hey that's what I just said. Look:

Rather than making this DMPC all kick ass and defeating the monsters, make him the party buffer / healer.
...

And Melamoto agrees!

Based on the responses so far, I guess this is probably the best way to do it, if at all. Again, the reason I was using a DMPC was because it would be the most unexpected victim, but I guess it looks like it wouldn't be worth it in the end.
It must be true.:smallbiggrin:

aivanther
2010-05-18, 12:26 PM
Remember, a large portion of DM/PC lessons can be learned from DM of the Ring, these (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=665) two (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=740) provide very pointed examples of PCs relation to DMPCs.

Oh, and this one (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=774)

Dr Bwaa
2010-05-18, 01:47 PM
I think he might be more interesting for the PCs if he's sort of a rival character. He turns up regularly as the PCs go through the dungeon. He apparently has the same goals, makes it a point to obstruct the PCs, is very difficult to beat, and manages to get away every time. When the time for you to yank him off the stage comes, he dies the way you described.

I like this. Specifically, I think you could do very well putting an Othar (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031010) into the campaign for this purpose. Kind of annoying, technically a rival, and everyone loves him out of character--then he gets eliminated and everyone's going to notice.

JohnnyCancer
2010-05-18, 02:23 PM
Rival party that is friendly and agreeably lets the PCs choose which fork in the road to take, then when they show up again later they've obviously fared much better than the PCs in terms of monsters slain and loot snagged. That way they achieve the same level of annoying without the party having to endure their company for a long time. Then they can die in some fashion that destroys all their swag or something.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:26 PM
Question: What precisely is a Mary Sue?

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 02:28 PM
Question: What precisely is a Mary Sue?

TVTropes has you covered. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue)

Learnedguy
2010-05-18, 02:30 PM
Seriously though, there's no reason to make the character a Mary Sue. Fact is, if you make him one, the players will be too relieved with getting rid of him to learn their lesson.

Instead, make the "Mary Sue" a like able character, maybe some veteran warrior who hires the adventurers to back him up for his dungeon crawl he's about to undertake in order to protect his village.

He's a nice, dedicated guy that respected (but not adored) in his community, and he respects the adventurers, and pay them up front with some items or gold. Before he dies, he'll try to tell them about what they are about to face, and how to fight it.

On the first and second fight, the old geezer will prove that he deserves the respect he gets. The third fight he makes a small mistake and dies horribly.

No protecting the PCs or self-sacrifice. No "Look at me I die so special!". Just a "whoops" and BAM!

Dead "Mary Sue".

AslanCross
2010-05-18, 04:56 PM
Question: What precisely is a Mary Sue?

Basically an annoyingly perfect and invincible character. She (since it's a MARY Sue, though the male equivalent is sometimes called the Gary Stu or Marty Stu) simply has no ability to be challenged by the story. No challenge, no conflict. No conflict, no change in character. No conflict, no possibility for irony. A story lacking in both a changed character and irony is at best lackluster.

Some common characteristics:
1. Center of the entire plot despite his/her complete detachment from anyone or anything in it.
2. Incredibly attractive, yet bored of society.
3. Incredibly intelligent, yet too uninterested in anything to use it.
4. Knowledgeable in 15 different martial arts and 5 different variations thereof.
5. Really long names that typically describe the character completely, like "Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way."

true_shinken
2010-05-18, 09:06 PM
Healbot.

Make it so that he's obviously very strong, but mainly restricts himself to a healing role. Maybe he one-shots anything that attacks him, preferably with a quickened spell after he uses his main action to heal someone/buff someone.

Then have him get one-shotted. This means they lose their healer, AND he wasn't a weak character, and they **** themselves.
This. OMG, this.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-19, 02:23 AM
This. OMG, this.
Yeah, a few of us suggested this, and the OP already said they were going to use the idea.
:smallcool:*smug mode*:smallcool:

Eric Tolle
2010-05-19, 10:25 AM
The thing to remember about Mary Sues is that they aren't actually characters, but rather self-esteem boosters for their authors. Thus, power level aside, they will be SPECIAL, and everyone will eecognize that specialness (except occasionally, the parents of the Sue). Also, in the presence of the Sue, characters will act completely out of character- with one heartfelt sigh and a soulful look she can get Cloud and Strife to realize their One True Love.
*ahem*

Anyway, the entire scenario has too many imponderables. For example, the first thing my players would as is: if the Big Bad can easily take out the most powerful opponent, why are the low level Snackables still alive? Better answer that one before you get to the point where the players come up with the wrong answers.