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Hendel
2010-05-18, 04:17 AM
Someone help me. We all know about how bonuses of different types stack etc., however, I have played with the idea that penalties always stack.

#1 Where is that written? I have looked through PHB, DMG, SRD and even Rules Compendium and I cannot find that rule. Maybe I have overlooked it, but help would be appreciated.

#2 Do penalties from the same source stack? Can I hit you with multiple Rays of Enfeeblement until your strength is a one?

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-18, 05:08 AM
Different Bonus Names: The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types.
A bonus that isn’t named stacks with any bonus.
(My emphasis)

I take that sentence (from Magic Overview section) as implying that the rules for bonuses and penalties are the same - similarly named adjustments, whether they're bonuses or penalties, don't stack, but everything else does.

unre9istered
2010-05-18, 07:11 AM
Also, penalties (or bonuses) from the same spell almost never stack. The newest spell just replaces the effect of the oldest.

In other words: No, you can't keep hitting an enemy with ray of enfeeblement until they can't move.

Hendel
2010-05-18, 02:39 PM
Also, penalties (or bonuses) from the same spell almost never stack. The newest spell just replaces the effect of the oldest.

In other words: No, you can't keep hitting an enemy with ray of enfeeblement until they can't move.

I would buy that. Now, what if I cast a Maximized Ray of Enfeeblement (Caster Level 10) at you and your strength starts out at 10. That would give you a -11 penalty to strength, but it says in the description that you cannot go past 1, so you would be at a 1 strength. Then I cast a Waves of Fatigue on you and you take a -2 penalty to strength. You are now at a zero strength as there is no limit to what fatigue can do to you according to the description of it under the condition summaries.

These are both penalties to strength, but neither of them are named and they both come from different sources. I assume in this case they stack and the result is a paralyzed opponent. Correct?

Thajocoth
2010-05-18, 02:40 PM
In 4e, penalties absolutely always stack. I have no idea what edition you're in.

Hendel
2010-05-18, 02:48 PM
In 4e, penalties absolutely always stack. I have no idea what edition you're in.

Sorry, 3.5, I guess I am so egocentric that I think the world revolves around me and my edition of D&D. Thanks for the reminder.

Just edited the thread title to make it clear. Thanks!

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-18, 02:50 PM
Well, we know we're talking about D&D, cause the OP uses the acronyms PHB and DMG.
And as the OP then mentioned the SRD, we must be dealing with 3rd Ed or 3.5, but no later - cause there isn't an SRD for an earlier version of the game, and the 4E "SRD" is just a style guide for developers.
And as the OP mentions the Rules Compendium, we know it's 3.5. :smallbiggrin:

I guess it would have been simpler if the OP had stated which edition of which game they were talking about, as they have done just now while I was writing my Holmesian deduction reveal. :smallwink:

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-18, 06:59 PM
Well, we know we're talking about D&D, cause the OP uses the acronyms PHB and DMG.
And as the OP then mentioned the SRD, we must be dealing with 3rd Ed or 3.5, but no later - cause there isn't an SRD for an earlier version of the game, and the 4E "SRD" is just a style guide for developers.
And as the OP mentions the Rules Compendium, we know it's 3.5. :smallbiggrin:

Correction: People who know D&D 3.5 know it's 3.5. Other people (like those who only started playing with 4th Edition, or who don't even play D&D) might not get all the references.

Hendel
2010-05-18, 08:07 PM
Correction: People who know D&D 3.5 know it's 3.5. Other people (like those who only started playing with 4th Edition, or who don't even play D&D) might not get all the references.

No offense, but I do not think I want advice on the rules of D&D from those "who don't even play D&D." Still, my fault, but it is corrected now, so we should all be good.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-19, 02:40 PM
No offense, but I do not think I want advice on the rules of D&D from those "who don't even play D&D." Still, my fault, but it is corrected now, so we should all be good.

Heh, that's exactly why you should be specific about what system you're talking about! Otherwise you'll get all kinds of random people. :smallwink::smallamused:

Anxe
2010-05-19, 04:11 PM
Ray of Enfeeblement must be some homebrew spell because I can't find it in any of my GURPS magic books.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-19, 06:52 PM
I think, in 3.5, penalties stack because, unlike bonuses, they're all untyped. The only exception is, like bonus, penalties from the same source do not stack.

So, Ray of Enfeeblement would stack with Waves of Fatigue.

Keld Denar
2010-05-20, 12:59 AM
There is a general rule mentioned in the FAQ that says that a creature always applies negative effects in the order that is most beneficial. The example that they gave involved a creature with fire vulnerability and Protection from Energy (Fire). The creature could choose to apply the Protection from Energy first, reducing the amount of damage assigned, and then the remaining damage would be multiplied by 1.5 due to the vulnerability.

Similarly, a creature struck by both a Ray of Enfeeblement and a Ray of Exhaustion would have the option of applying the penalty from RoExhaustion first, and THEN appling the penalty from RoEnfeeblement, regardless of application order. That would put RoEnfeeblement's "no less than 1" clause in effect last, just like the above creatures vulnerability.

This is based on the FAQ though, and we all know how credable that is. Still, it seems like a pretty even-handed rule across the board, affecting PCs and monsters nearly equally.

On a side note.


The newest spell just replaces the effect of the oldest.

This is wrong. The STRONGEST effect stays in place for its full duration, and after that duration ends, any weaker effects apply.

If you are hit by a RoEnfeeblement for 10 points of Str penalty, and then 5 minutes later by another RoEnfeeblement for 2 points of Str penalty, you would continue to be affected by the 10 point Str penalty until it's duration expires, at which time, if the 2 point penalty still has duration left, it would effect you. You can't "heal" a penalty by knocking it off with a similar yet weaker effect.