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WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 01:38 PM
Here's the party:

Human Wizard (Abjuration)
Dwarf Barbarian
Ratling Ninja (OA)
Half-Succubus Ranger
Half-Elf Rogue
Elf Ranger
Human Paladin of Corellon

what's best for me? Base races + Orc and easy classes (we have 2 new players, so My DMs want me to be from PHBI or II or Completes) Any books. I'll cover feats.

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 01:41 PM
(Cloistered) Cleric. Secondary offensive caster, primary defensive caster and team buffer, along with extra skill monkey. Alternatively, Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso specializing in buffing and especially song (with that many warriors, the payoff would be unfathomable). Human is probably the best race within allowed sources. Otherwise, case could be made for Lesser Aasimar or Strongheart Halfling, but with those sources, Human > All.

Asheram
2010-05-18, 01:42 PM
Eight players in a campaign? *shivers*

Anyhow, a bard'd be nice to see in such a group.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 01:43 PM
Two more things:

We get a bonus feat that gives our feats every two levels and ability boosts every 3

and ONE PrC, which must be taken post-lv 10

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 01:44 PM
Eight players in a campaign? *shivers*

Anyhow, a bard'd be nice to see in such a group.

1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

2. One is a DM. Either the Paly or the Ninja, depending on the night

I had considered a Half-Orc Samurai or a Human Necromancer

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 01:45 PM
Two more things:

We get a bonus feat that gives our feats every two levels and ability boosts every 3

and ONE PrC, which must be taken post-lv 10

Cloistered Cleric, then. Doesn't need PrCs (though mite as well go Contemplative). Bard is too dependent on getting two PrCs to go with, though until level 10 it'd be fine. But SC is necessary and yet loses Inspire Courage. With your sources, lack of access to Song of the Heart and Words of Creation hurts a lot too.

And bards are many things, but not weak. It's a matter of experience, but you can make a strong bard. Generally though, it does involve getting to PrC twice and proper feats. But giving everyone +12d6+12 damage and +12 to hit on every attack while maintaining full 20 level spellcasting, being able to break Polymorph limits and so on is anything but weak.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 01:47 PM
Cloistered Cleric, then. Doesn't need PrCs (though mite as well go Contemplative). Bard is too dependent on getting two PrCs to go with, though until level 10 it'd be fine. But SC is necessary and yet loses Inspire Courage. With your sources, lack of access to Song of the Heart and Words of Creation hurts a lot too.

And bards are many things, but not weak. It's a matter of experience, but you can make a strong bard. Generally though, it does involve getting to PrC twice.

DM said no clerics, saying that "Cleric is broken" (Note; This is because I ran a Cliostered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker)

And ALL 3.0 and 3.5 sourcebooks are allowed

Telonius
2010-05-18, 01:52 PM
1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

2. One is a DM. Either the Paly or the Ninja, depending on the night

I had considered a Half-Orc Samurai or a Human Necromancer

Bard is weak, but you're considering Samurai? Please tell me you mean the Oriental Adventures version. (It's still inferior to the Bard, but not as ridiculously weak as the CWar Samurai)

lsfreak
2010-05-18, 01:52 PM
Bard with DFI optimization, then. Bard/warblade would be very good as well, sacrifice a bit of Inspire Courage, but that's outside your list of available books for base classes.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 01:54 PM
1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

I don't know what you're talking about. Bard 20 is perfectly viable, especially with splatbook support, and Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is about on par with a sorcerer.

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 01:56 PM
DM said no clerics, saying that "Cleric is broken" (Note; This is because I ran a Cliostered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker)

And ALL 3.0 and 3.5 sourcebooks are allowed

Then Bard. Bard/Sublime Chord is a solid full caster, which with a modicum of optimization means you'll be stronger than the rest of the party combined save for the Wizard, and you multiply the power of all the martial types in the party while at it so they won't feel overshadowed.

Here:
X Good Human Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10
1. Dragontouched [Dragon Magic]
H. Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]
3. Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings]
6. Words of Creation [Book of Exalted Deeds]

Mw. Drums (or anything that increases the offensive output of Inspire Courage) [item - Complete Adventurer], Inspirational Boost [spell - Spell Compendium], Vest of Legend [item - Dungeon Master's Guide II], Badge of Valor [item - Magic Item Compendium] combine to give you:

+5 Bard-levels for song abilities [Vest of Legend]
+1 to Inspire Courage bonus [Inspirational Boost]
-1 Morale to saves, +1 to the Damage-bonus [Mw. Drums]
+1 to Inspire Courage [Badge of Valor]
+1 to effects of Bard-songs [Song of the Heart]
x2 Bardic Music effects with trivial nonlethal damage [Words of Creation]
Ability to give +Xd6 energy damage matching the type of your draconic heritage instead of +X damage/+X to hit with your Inspire Courage (songs last 5 turns after you stop performing, 10 with Lingering Song [Complete Adventurer], so you can stack the benefits)
9th level spellcasting [Sublime Chord]


This means you can sing for epic bonuses while casting (and since you're your own ally, you also buff yourself and can hit quite well if desired, especially with Wizardly buffs...Polymorph if you aren't afraid of being a bit overpowered).

Like, your Inspire Courage on level 6 is:
1 base + 1 Badge + 1 Drums + 1 Inspirational Boost + 1 Song of the Heart x2 Words of Creation = +10/+10, or +10d6 Dragonfire Inspiration (or both, usually); this is not counting Vest of Legend which you can't afford by WBL at this point yet.

Keld Denar
2010-05-18, 01:57 PM
1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs


Ah, sign up for re-education, my friend. A properly built Bard is a dramatic force multiplier. Inspire Courage is really easy to optimize with enough sourcebooks, and can DOUBLE many classes base attack bonus up until about level 8. Its pretty silly, actually, especially with a large group.

What you need:
Inspirational Boost - Spell - Spell Compendium
Badge of Valor - Magic Item - Magic Item Compendium (in the sets)
Song of the Heard - Feat - Eberron Campaign Setting

Those alone result in a +4 base Inspire Courage by ~ 3rd level, as Badge of Valor is dirt cheap and Insp Boost is a 1st level spell.

Other useful things:
Melodic Casting - Feat - Complete Mage, doesn't interupt song to cast spells or use spell trigger items, also allows you to forgo concentration completely with perform checks.

Dragonfire Inspiration - Feat - Dragon Magic, wanna do more damage than your entire party combined? This little gem turns your normal +x/+x Inspire Courage into a lethal +xd6 elemental damage. Want to add a +4d6 point fire blast on EVERY allies weapon swing, including your own? This puppy is STRONG. Use with caution.

Sublime Chord - PrC - Complete Arcane, if you can only have 1 PrC, this is the one you want. Normally people combine it with Virtuoso to progress casting, but if you are that limited, this is the one you want. It turns your mid level bard into a mid level sorcerer almost overnight. You still keep all of your normal bardy goodness you've been doing for 10 levels, but now you have higher level spell slots and access to the entire Wiz/Sorc list up to 9th level spells. Its the late-game pick-me-up that every bard needs.

Song of the White Raven - Feat - Tome of Battle, use this for creating a Bardblade or Bardsader. Stacks your Bard levels and your Warblade/Crusader levels for the purpose of determining the strength of your IC. Take 3-4 levels of Bard, then hop into either or both of these classes to pick up martial manevuers. This allows you to hop into melee and kick ass and take names, all the while using your optimized Inspire Courage (or Dragonfire Inspiration) to boost your own combat prowass and that of your allies.

So yea, Bards in 3.5 with full access to books is actually REALLY strong. I highly suggest you try something like this, you will be surprised. Especailly in your group, as it seems that you have a lot of TWF type character who benefit immensely from bonus damage like DFI.

EDIT:
I don't like Words of Creation. I don't like any feat that imposes RP restrictions. Its an [Exalted] feat, meaning that it can also be irrevokably taken away by the DM for no reason other than spite. It also pushes the power creep most into the realm of TO, as while +4d6 fire damage at 3rd level is strong, +8d6 fire damage at 3rd level is stupidly rediculous.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 01:57 PM
1. Yes, the OA version

2. No ToB. Will confuse the noobies

3. I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

gbprime
2010-05-18, 01:57 PM
1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

Clearly someone doesn't use enough sourcebooks.

Words of Creation at level 3 stacked with Inspirational Boost. Double your bonus plus one. +1 bonus at level 1, +2 at level 2, +3 at level 3. Becomes +5 at level 8, +7 at 14th, and +9 at 20th.

Sublime Chord PrC at level 11 is optional, turning the bard into a decent wizard for those lovely "change the conditions of the fight" spells and allowing you to take a reserve feat to blast things with supernatural damage dice.

Jarian
2010-05-18, 01:58 PM
3. I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

You would seem to have DM problems, rather than Bard problems, then.

If he won't let you have a Cleric, then play an Archivist. What's your starting level?

pres_man
2010-05-18, 01:58 PM
Favored Soul

Keld Denar
2010-05-18, 01:59 PM
Your DM is a douche. Find a new one.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:01 PM
We start at 2nd level. again, the party's pretty balanced. I just need to be the final rung on the ladder. We have 2 healers (paly and ranger) and a fulltime caster (The wizard)

Telonius
2010-05-18, 02:01 PM
1. Yes, the OA version

2. No ToB. Will confuse the noobies

3. I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

Ah. So the original statement should read more like:
1. DM is a joke. Some jerk. Made so bard is unplayable.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:04 PM
Ah. So the original statement should read more like:
1. DM is a joke. Some jerk. Made so bard is unplayable.

Oi! The DM's my best bro. Granted, he makes me mad, but come on! I need to play by his rules or not at all. (as in, i quit D&D forever)

gbprime
2010-05-18, 02:04 PM
DM said no clerics, saying that "Cleric is broken" (Note; This is because I ran a Cliostered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker)

Cleric is not broken, cleric is BREAKABLE. Huge difference, and entirely the fault of the GM if he lets you do it. :smallamused:

And no Bards either? Okaaaay...

A divine caster with mass buffs is really what is needed with that mix. If you can't use cleric, your choices are Favored Soul (ick), Druid, Spirit Shaman, and Shujenka. Druid lets you chew on people's faces, spirit shaman has some interesting toys and the druid spell list, and Shujenka makes a superior healer of the bunch (at the expense of a decent spell list).

I'd recommend Druid and take Spontaneous Healer, just in case a healing spell is needed in a pinch. Once you hit 5th you spend your time in wild shape, or if you want immediate satisfaction, forget Wild Shape and take the UA alt class that gives you Favored enemy and Wisdom bonus to AC. Then you summon Walls of Meat for a living.

dextercorvia
2010-05-18, 02:05 PM
<snip>
what's best for me? <snip>

Find a DM that won't screw with you for no reason. Alternatively, consider that the DM is screwing with you because you have an attitude problem, and fix that.

pres_man
2010-05-18, 02:06 PM
We start at 2nd level. again, the party's pretty balanced. I just need to be the final rung on the ladder. We have 2 healers (paly and ranger) and a fulltime caster (The wizard)

Yeah, but the healers are going to be pretty poorly equipped to deal with anything that is not hp damage in the long run.

Gnaeus
2010-05-18, 02:06 PM
Favored Soul, Archivist, or Druid.

I would go Druid. Focus on crowd control and buffs. Make your pet into a flying mount for the wizard and stay in Desmodu Bat form yourself (since your party seems to have melee covered and they don't need someone else eating the enemies face.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:09 PM
I don't feel like being a Band-Aid despenser... Too little talent for me. I mean, it'd be needed, but I don't play band-aid despensers. EVER. Let the ranger and paladin do that...

Maho-Tsukai
2010-05-18, 02:11 PM
With all those warriors, the team lacks serious spellcasting power. If I where you I would take up an arcane or divine caster class. It's too bad cleric is banned, a cleric would be good on this team, but there are other options. Assuming wizard is not also banned due to powerlevel, a wizard would do the team some good. He could handle mobs and provide some team buffs though not as many as a cleric or bard. If you don't think wizard is what you want to take, there are plenty of other arcane and divine caster classes.

You may want to try a shugenja. Their spell list becomes extremely limited when you chose an element, but if your DM allows you to use D20 Rokugan content(NOT wizard's OA book, the ones which are made by a third party..it's basically just books which expand OA's Rokugan setting and give things like actual martial arts moves for marital classes and enough spells to make the shugenja spell list rival the size wizard/sorcerer spell list..) then a shugenja has a lot of options. Shugena is also not nearly as broken as wizard or other spellcasters due to their elemental limitations, but are still powerful enough to aid them team if need be. A shugenja can be a healbot(water) if you want to go that way, but can also be a blaster(fire), illusionist type(air) or a buff master(earth)...If you don't want to be a band-aid or buff dispenser, I would say go fire or air. Fire is a fairly strait forward, "wanna-be warmage" type caster who gets a few other options, but for the most part is a blaster. Air however, has it's own special feel. It's closest in play style to a illusionist wiz but also gets some other tricks which include teleportation and other travel spells.

Also, you mentioned necromancer? I take it you mean a wizard necromancer? If you where to play a wizard I would not specialize in necromancy. Wizards make poor necromancers unless you use homebrew(frank and K are great for that purpose). If you want a real necromancer who actually animates the dead your best options are cleric and Dread Necromancer. Since cleric is banned, that leaves the Dread Necromancer as far as necromancy goes. Sure, you will start off as a melee mage who takes tomb tainted soul to constantly heal themselves with their negative energy touch, but if you make it to level 8, you are a better necromamcer then a cleric. You will get the most undead of anybody.

But if dread necromancer is not your thing and you still want to be a necro? Perhaps you should try the oriental necromancer, my namesake the Maho-Tsukai. Their spell list is very limited, but if you can use D20 Rokugan it's expanded to include some powerful spells. Maho-Tsukai is a PrC, though, so you would want to take levels in shugenja to get to it since shugenja is the only caster class which can learn Maho spells(as off element spells) and thus gain enough taint to enter the Maho-Tsukai class.(You need a certain taint score to get in and the easiest way to do that (if you include Rokugan stuff ) is through a shugenja who learns some maho spells. , so a shugenja is the ideal way to rack up taint fast without becoming undead or something equally difficult to do.) Maho is also an evil only class, though, but if you where going to play a necromancer to began with then your party seams not to have an issue with evil stuff.

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 02:12 PM
I don't feel like being a Band-Aid despenser... Too little talent for me. I mean, it'd be needed, but I don't play band-aid despensers. EVER. Let the ranger and paladin do that...

They suck at it. Get Wands of Lesser Vigor paid for by everybody equally and that'll have your curing covered for life leaving a real caster only required for Restoration, Revivify and up. But honestly, Druid can heal out-of-combat. In-combat healing is for chumps anyways. That said, you don't need another melee. Besides, melee sucks, why would you want to play one? Play a controller caster.

You have 6 martial types and 1 caster. Do the math. Cleric and Bard not ok? Druid, Archivist and Favored Soul are next. If those don't work, play a controller/buffer Wizard. Honestly, just Polymorph someone into a Remorhaz or a 12-Headed Hydra once and never look back.

gbprime
2010-05-18, 02:12 PM
Except that paladin and ranger SUCK at it. [Edit... you beat me to it. :smallamused: ]They can use a wand. At second level, do you have much in the way of a wand budget?

There's no substitute for a caster dumping out the biggest Cure he can cast, especially when you hit Heal or Mass cure levels. And you want to be able to cast it spontaneously so you don't have to waste spell slots on them that could otherwise be buffing or killing.

dextercorvia
2010-05-18, 02:12 PM
Your list of classes that you would outright object to is rather long, and probably should have been included in your first post.

How about a monk? They have no healing ability whatsoever.

Gnaeus
2010-05-18, 02:13 PM
No one suggested being a Band-Aid dispenser. Favored Soul, Archivist, and Druid are all full of win from buffs and other combat spells. Healing can be accomplished out of combat with a wand of lesser vigor. Don't be a heal-bot, be a full caster. (Oh, forgot the Spirit Shaman. They're pretty cool also, especially in a group that doesn't need an extra tank.)

Edit: Wow. super ninjed.

@ Maho, Dread Necro would have made my list also, but he said only classes from PHB 1+2 or Completes.

Edit 2: Oops. That means no Archivist as well. Forgot it was in HoH.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:15 PM
With all those warriors, the team lacks serious spellcasting power. If I where you I would take up an arcane or divine caster class. It's too bad cleric is banned, a cleric would be good on this team, but there are other options. Assuming wizard is not also banned due to powerlevel, a wizard would do the team some good. He could handle mobs and provide some team buffs though not as many as a cleric or bard. If you don't think wizard is what you want to take, there are plenty of other arcane and divine caster classes.

You may want to try a shugenja. Their spell list becomes extremely limited when you chose an element, but if your DM allows you to use D20 Rokugan content(NOT wizard's OA book, the ones which are made by a third party..it's basically just books which expand OA's Rokugan setting and give things like actual martial arts moves for marital classes and enough spells to make the shugenja spell list rival the size wizard/sorcerer spell list..) then a shugenja has a lot of options. Shugena is also not nearly as broken as wizard or other spellcasters due to their elemental limitations, but are still powerful enough to aid them team if need be. A shugenja can be a healbot(water) if you want to go that way, but can also be a blaster(fire), illusionist type(air) or a buff master(earth)...

Also, you mentioned necromancer? I take it you mean a wizard necromancer? If you where to play a wizard I would not specalize in necromancy. Wizards make poor necromancers unless you use homebrew(frank and K are great for that purpose). If you want a real necromancer who actually animates the dead your best options are cleric and Dread Necromancer. Since cleric is baned, that leaves the Dread Necromancer as far as necromancy gose. Sure, you will start off as a melee mage who takes toumb tainted soul to constantly heal themselves with their negitive energy touch, but if you make it to level 8, you are a better necromamcer then a cleric. You will get the most undead of anybody once you hit 8.

But if dread necromancer is not your thing and you still want to be a necro? Perhaps you should try the oriental necromancer, my namesake the Maho-Tsukai. Their spell list is very limited, but if you can use D20 Rokugan it's expanded to include some powerful spells. Maho-Tsukai is a PrC, though, so you would want to take levels in shugenja to get to it since shugenja is the only caster class which can learn Maho spells(as off element spells) and thus gain enough taint to enter the Maho-Tsukai class.(You need a certain taint score to get in and the easiest way if you include Rokugan stuff is through a shugenja who learns some maho spells since maho spells give you taint every time you cast them. Maho is also an evil only class, though, but if you where going to play a necromancer to began with then your party seams not to have an issue with evil stuff.

1. I know...

2. I downloaded EVERY Rokugan book, but the Ratling is a Scorpion clan ninja, from a Rokugan where the clans are all at war.

3. we expanded the Necromancer's spell list and I'd do an Utterdark Necroblaster if I did a necromancer.

4. Maho looked cool, minus it seems "out of place" in the party

Jarian
2010-05-18, 02:15 PM
No band-aiding, and trusting to the ranger and pally to keep the party alive. Alright. If that's the way your group functions, then that's how it functions. Fun is the primary goal, after all.

Let's make Mr. Invisible.

Whisper Gnome Warlock 1/Rogue 1

Feats: Blend Into Shadows, At Home In the Deep (Drow of the Underdark)

Take the Darkness and See the Unseen invocations. You now have Darkness as a Spell Like Ability, qualifying you for the feats. Max your hide check. Cast Darkness on a stick that you carry with you. Congratulations, you're all but invisible.

Spam Eldritch Blast every round, hitting flatfooted touch AC and adding sneak attack to it.

Whisper Gnome is optional. Any small race with a dex bonus will work fine.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:18 PM
I hate monk because it's a joke. Without multiple PrCs, you lose. With multiple PrCs, you sort-of lose

and Small races in our group tend to die a lot as well.

gbprime
2010-05-18, 02:19 PM
Sounds like everybody dies a lot. you SURE you don't want a divine caster? :smallcool:

Remember, having the ability to chuck out a big healing spell doesn't make you a band aid dispenser. It's just an option. And along with that comes other options... like Stalwart Pact, Mass Aid, Indomitability, and Revivify. Ain't no paladin gonna be able to pull off a revivify, and having a wand of cure or vivify in your pocket isn't gonna help when you run into a giant with a greatclub. SOMEONE is going down without those divine buffs.

Jarian
2010-05-18, 02:19 PM
If your DM kills a small race because it's small, I can't help you. If monsters just "happen" to target small races, well, ask your DM to roll their spot check in the open, because it's pretty hard to find you, even at 2nd level.

If you're fine with Death By Fiat happening to everything your DM doesn't like, that's fine. That's you. If you're having fun, that's what matters. Me, I'd get a different DM.

Edit: Also, UMD. Lots of it.

WoodenSword
2010-05-18, 02:24 PM
If your DM kills a small race because it's small, I can't help you. If monsters just "happen" to target small races, well, ask your DM to roll their spot check in the open, because it's pretty hard to find you, even at 2nd level.

If you're fine with Death By Fiat happening to everything your DM doesn't like, that's fine. That's you. If you're having fun, that's what matters. Me, I'd get a different DM.

The always "happen" to attack me, reguardless of wheter or not I'm a legit threat. As a cleric, the Kraken attacked me first, even though it had to swing past the other players to hit me.

Jarian
2010-05-18, 02:27 PM
Good thing you're hiding somewhere within 30ft of a sphere of darkness. 50% miss chance for total concealment, if they even target the right square.

Your swift hide doesn't suffer the penalty for sniping, so you should be really, really hard to find. Shoot, move, hide. Repeat as needed.

Throw books if your DM continues to hit you round after round, because fiat isn't funny.

Or keep putting up with it and play a beatstick, since that seems to be the only thing that won't be picked on.

Water Orc Fighter 2

Lulz Strength.

Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, EWP (Spiked Chain)

There. Unless he has a problem with orcs, too.

Drogorn
2010-05-18, 02:28 PM
Sounds like you should smack around your "best bro" a bit. He's being a jerk.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-05-18, 02:34 PM
Just because the clans are at war dose not mean a Shugenja would not fit. The scorpian clan uses shugenja too, some of whom even know a lot about, and may be secretly using Maho magic aka the Yogo of the scorpian clan.

Also, by necromancer do you mean Wizard or Dread Necromancer? If the former, dose it animate undead by level 3 spellcasting like a cleric? Even with more spells, a wizard is a poor necromancer unless its spells are incredible. A cleric still gets rebuke and animate dead as a level 3 spell, so unless you get some undead animation at lower levels and some form of rebuke a wizard will never be as good a necromancer as a cleric until he gets animate dead in the higher levels. Anything before that he's just a plain old wizard who likes to use negative energy instead of the elements or pure magical energy. Even in higher levels he will be an inferior necromancer to a cleric who still has his rebuke and most likely will have more undead then the wizard in his army due to the deathbound domain.

gbprime
2010-05-18, 02:37 PM
Or keep putting up with it and play a beatstick, since that seems to be the only thing that won't be picked on.

If you have Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved book handy, play a Warmain with a tower shield. d12 HP and double CON bonus at first level, then fighter bonus feats after that. 18 con, Dauntless, Improved Toughness, and Improved Toughness for your feats at 1st and second level. 33+1d12 HP for 2nd level, and an AC of 23.

He can beat on that all he likes. it'll take so long to pound into the dirt that the other PC's will easily finish off the monsters.

Gnaeus
2010-05-18, 02:38 PM
Also, by necromancer do you mean Wizard or Dread Necromancer? If the former, dose it animate undead by level 3 spellcasting like a cleric? Even with more spells, a wizard is a poor necromancer unless its spells are incredible. A cleric still gets rebuke and animate dead as a level 3 spell, so unless you get some undead animation at lower levels and some form of rebuke a wizard will never be as good a necromancer as a cleric until he gets animate dead in the higher levels. Anything before that he's just a plain old wizard who likes to use negative energy instead of the elements or pure magical energy. Heck, dread necromancer is not even really a necromancer until level 8 when it gets the ability to create a giant undead army. Pre -level 8 it m more of a negative energy loving gish class then anything else.

Mostly. You can get there earlier with fell animate, and the rebuking helps a lot. Actually, in this party, a Dread Necro using his rebukes to power Protection Devotion would be pretty darn handy (assuming that any real party buffer like a bard or cleric is out).

Hendel
2010-05-18, 02:45 PM
1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

You have obviously never played a bard or had one in your party.

I would not recommend it as a class if you had only four characters in the party, but it is a great 5th character. With the right build you could make sure your tanks always hit and you can act in other really important support roles.

If your idea of D&D is that you need to be the guy up there breaking legs and blowing stuff up, then it might "suck." Otherwise, don't disrespect the bard, because next to the cleric, he is the best chance of keeping a party alive and effective.

Just my two humble coppers!

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 02:55 PM
Let's narrow this down a bit. What exactly is it that you don't hate, that the DM won't drop rocks on (and honestly, you should probably do something about that problem first)?

PId6
2010-05-18, 03:03 PM
Like, your Inspire Courage on level 6 is:
1 base + 1 Badge + 1 Drums + 1 Inspirational Boost + 1 Song of the Heart x2 Words of Creation = +10/+10, or +10d6 Dragonfire Inspiration (or both, usually); this is not counting Vest of Legend which you can't afford by WBL at this point yet.
Does that work? Drums only add to damage, and Dragonfire Inspiration at least only refers to the bonus to attack rolls. Wouldn't that turn into +8d6 + 2 damage or maybe just lose the +2 for +8d6?

Asheram
2010-05-18, 03:06 PM
The always "happen" to attack me, reguardless of wheter or not I'm a legit threat. As a cleric, the Kraken attacked me first, even though it had to swing past the other players to hit me.

Alright, that's just your "bro" messing with you. Just ask him what the beef is.
As it looks like now, either he has some personal grudge, or just Really dislikes your characters.

For an experiment, ask Him to do your character.

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 03:07 PM
Does that work? Drums only add to damage, and Dragonfire Inspiration at least only refers to the bonus to attack rolls. Wouldn't that turn into +8d6 + 2 damage or maybe just lose the +2 for +8d6?

*shrug* I suppose it's not the Mw. Instrument I was thinking of.

Jarian
2010-05-18, 03:14 PM
*shrug* I suppose it's not the Mw. Instrument I was thinking of.

Masterwork Mandolin.

DrGonzo
2010-05-18, 03:36 PM
Be a druid. Have your own personal fighter around. Turn into bear. Kill things. Be a full caster.

When all above fails to keep you alive, kick DM bro under the table. Maybe he'll get the message then.

Jarian
2010-05-18, 03:36 PM
Be a druid. Have your own personal fighter around. Turn into bear. Kill things. Be a full caster.

When all above fails to keep you alive, kick DM bro under the table. Maybe he'll get the message then.

Tiny problem at level 2.

DrGonzo
2010-05-18, 03:45 PM
True. Extra step: try surviving till lvl 6.

That's going to be the tricky part..

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 03:47 PM
True. Extra step: try surviving till lvl 6.

That's going to be the tricky part..

Eh. You have a superfighter, you're a full caster with armor proficiencies (How about Dragonhide Breastplate? It's affordable on level 2) and have the important saves as "Good - Very Good"; if anything is going to survive, it's a Druid.

DrGonzo
2010-05-18, 04:00 PM
Eh. You have a superfighter, you're a full caster with armor proficiencies (How about Dragonhide Breastplate? It's affordable on level 2) and have the important saves as "Good - Very Good"; if anything is going to survive, it's a Druid.

And with a name like wooden sword, you almost need to be a druid. :smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2010-05-18, 04:12 PM
Or, I don't suppose Psionics are actually allowed in this restriction-filled game? You could do well in this party with a Psion or (if "Core + Completes" is interpreted strictly) Ardent. These classes can fill the divine caster-ish "Support Caster" role if they wish, but don't have quite the stigma of healbot expectations that the Cleric has and can focus on offense if they wish as well.

Pluto
2010-05-18, 07:26 PM
Play a Frenzied Berserker. Not because it's particularly useful, not because it contributes anything to your group that it doesn't already have, but because it's the only option that it looks like you'd even bother to consider.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 07:48 PM
CW Samurai isn't too bad... you just have to pick up a couple of feats for it to work right...

Honestly, it doesn't matter. The wizard, if done properly, will be a party unto himself and your role will be to make coffee. So don't worry about what character you create, it won't really make any difference anyways. Unless you go Druid, then you can at least have leftovers.

Draz74
2010-05-18, 07:52 PM
Honestly, it doesn't matter. The wizard, if done properly, will be a party unto himself and your role will be to make coffee. So don't worry about what character you create, it won't really make any difference anyways. Unless you go Druid, then you can at least have leftovers.

I very much disagree with that entire paragraph, based on a different view of the word "properly." (To me, a "properly" done Wizard is one who makes sure he doesn't overshadow the rest of the party, not one who optimizes himself extensively. :smalltongue: There are plenty of parties out there where Wizards don't overshadow everyone else, because people, either on purpose or out of ignorance (and apathy) just don't play them optimally.)

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-18, 07:52 PM
Indeed, if you don't to play a pure support caster, whats wrong with another wizard or sorc? I mean, you've got like 6 melee people, they can't abject to another caster. It's also the best option.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 07:58 PM
I very much disagree with that entire paragraph, based on a different view of the word "properly." (To me, a "properly" done Wizard is one who makes sure he doesn't overshadow the rest of the party, not one who optimizes himself extensively. :smalltongue: There are plenty of parties out there where Wizards don't overshadow everyone else, because people, either on purpose or out of ignorance (and apathy) just don't play them optimally.)

Then replace 'properly' with 'optimized'. Abjurer is one of the worst, mostly due to Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.


Indeed, if you don't to play a pure support caster, whats wrong with another wizard or sorc? I mean, you've got like 6 melee people, they can't abject to another caster. It's also the best option.

I don't see how they could complain about a Bard boosting all their attacks, even without DFI. But, it depends on what he wants to play.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 08:28 PM
I don't see how they could complain about a Bard boosting all their attacks, even without DFI. But, it depends on what he wants to play.

Because bards are categorically useless and his DM won't play fair. Duh.

Thurbane
2010-05-18, 08:36 PM
1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs
2. One is a DM. Either the Paly or the Ninja, depending on the night

I had considered a Half-Orc Samurai or a Human Necromancer
...yeah, if you think Bard is a joke, I'd strongly recommend against Samurai (assuming CW version). It's significantly weaker than the Bard.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 08:38 PM
...yeah, if you think Bard is a joke, I'd strongly recommend against Samurai (assuming CW version). It's significantly weaker than the Bard.

I consider CW to be mechanically more powerful than OA, but he is choosing the OA version (Ratling Scorpion Samurai, to be exact)

Thurbane
2010-05-18, 08:39 PM
Fair enough. I'm not that familiar with the OA version. Still, I'd say Bard has the potential to be stronger than either, with the right PrCs.

Stompy
2010-05-18, 09:02 PM
The always "happen" to attack me, reguardless of wheter or not I'm a legit threat. As a cleric, the Kraken attacked me first, even though it had to swing past the other players to hit me.

I sure hope this isn't the same level 2 game you are currently playing.

Honestly, I say just play a wizard, go conjurer, and grab abrupt jaunt from PHB2. Use it liberally to get out of DM-spite situations like the one just quoted. I would also recommend going dwarf (this group probably doesn't use charisma, because bards die to plothax) or gnome for more HP.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 10:36 PM
Fair enough. I'm not that familiar with the OA version. Still, I'd say Bard has the potential to be stronger than either, with the right PrCs.

For a melee-heavy party like this one? I most wholeheartedly concur.

Amphetryon
2010-05-19, 06:43 AM
Factotum 18/Chameleon 2, Iajitsu Focus Gnome Quickrazor yadda yadda...

WoodenSword
2010-05-19, 01:00 PM
Considering a Necromancer because my DM houseruled (with a legit backstory) that I can have a Slaymate as a familiar.

Asheram
2010-05-19, 01:08 PM
Considering a Necromancer because my DM houseruled (with a legit backstory) that I can have a Slaymate as a familiar.

Just careful with that paladin so he doesn't go all "Stab-stabitty-stab" on you for holding court with corpses.

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 01:11 PM
You should consider the Lightning Warrior. I think that the way it truly sacrifices power for flavor would fit well in the environment you have described.

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) Χ4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.


Lightning Warrior
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special

1st +1 +2 +2 +2 Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery
2nd +2 +3 +3 +3
3rd +3 +3 +3 +3
4th +4 +4 +4 +4
5th +5 +4 +4 +4 Bonus feat
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +6
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Bonus feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Bonus feat



Spells Per Day
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 3 — — — — — — — —
2nd 6 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 6 4 3 — — — — — — —
4th 6 5 4 — — — — — — —
5th 6 5 4 3 — — — — — —
6th 6 5 5 4 — — — — — —
7th 6 6 5 4 3 — — — — —
8th 6 6 5 5 4 — — — — —
9th 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — — —
10th 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — — —
11th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — —
12th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — —
13th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — —
14th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — —
15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 —
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

WoodenSword
2010-05-19, 01:14 PM
Just careful with that paladin so he doesn't go all "Stab-stabitty-stab" on you for holding court with corpses.

he's either gonna be NG or LN

Asheram
2010-05-19, 01:15 PM
You should consider the Lightning Warrior. I think that the way it truly sacrifices power for flavor would fit well in the environment you have described.

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) Χ4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.


Lightning Warrior
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special

1st +1 +2 +2 +2 Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery
2nd +2 +3 +3 +3
3rd +3 +3 +3 +3
4th +4 +4 +4 +4
5th +5 +4 +4 +4 Bonus feat
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +6
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Bonus feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Bonus feat



Spells Per Day
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 3 — — — — — — — —
2nd 6 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 6 4 3 — — — — — — —
4th 6 5 4 — — — — — — —
5th 6 5 4 3 — — — — — —
6th 6 5 5 4 — — — — — —
7th 6 6 5 4 3 — — — — —
8th 6 6 5 5 4 — — — — —
9th 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — — —
10th 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — — —
11th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — —
12th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — —
13th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — —
14th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — —
15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 —
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

You know, the one making that class was off his rocker. It can't possibly be useful without specialisation and a familiar.

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 01:18 PM
You know, the one making that class was off his rocker. It can't possibly be useful without specialisation and a familiar.

I figured it was the OP's only hope to have a caster the DM would take pity on, rather than outright kill. With no familiar and no specialization he can't even take abrupt jaunt.

Lev
2010-05-19, 01:24 PM
I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

When god gives you lemons you make lemonaid, when god drinks your lemonaid you FIND A NEW GOD.

WoodenSword
2010-05-19, 01:36 PM
When god gives you lemons you make lemonaid, when god drinks your lemonaid you FIND A NEW GOD.

he was an athiest. Explain that one chief...

Lev
2010-05-19, 01:50 PM
he was an athiest. Explain that one chief...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk

WoodenSword
2010-05-19, 02:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3qncy5Qfk

i see...

However, would a NG/LN necromancer fill the void of the party?

pinwiz
2010-05-19, 02:13 PM
i see...

However, would a NG/LN necromancer fill the void of the party?

wouldn't you have to ignore the [evil] descriptor on a lot of necromancy stuff to be an NG necromancer? :smallconfused:

goken04
2010-05-19, 02:45 PM
i see...

However, would a NG/LN necromancer fill the void of the party?

Not that great, I imagine. You already have a ton of power in melee, so creating even more beatsticks seems like a waste of time. On the otherhand, I'm assuming you'd be going full-wizard, so... his non-necro abilities will make him useful.

I third (or fourth) Druid. You haven't responded to this request yet.

DrGonzo
2010-05-19, 03:37 PM
Not that great, I imagine. You already have a ton of power in melee, so creating even more beatsticks seems like a waste of time. On the otherhand, I'm assuming you'd be going full-wizard, so... his non-necro abilities will make him useful.

I third (or fourth) Druid. You haven't responded to this request yet.

And he never will..