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riccaru
2010-05-18, 02:27 PM
Hey, I'm running a game for me and my friend, he read the neverending dungeon and wants to try a gestalt class. He says he wants to make a sorc/wiz but I'm not sure if that's a great idea for all 20. Maybe go sorc 15/wiz 15/ archmage 5? In gestalt does the +1 to caster level for spells apply to both classes or just wizard?

Also, I'm thinking of using a wizard 10/cleric 10// mystic theurge 10/ archmage 5/ monk 5 (for defensive bonuses) Is there any way to make cleric and wizard spells go off the same stat? What about wizard and sorcerer spells on the same stat? Sorry if this is alot of questions, but I'm wanting him to survive a bit. :smallamused: Full casting is chewy.

okpokalypse
2010-05-18, 02:35 PM
Knight 20 / Favored Soul 18 | Sacred Exorcist 2

You're an unstoppable Charisma-Based Tank who can Persist Buffs and Heal all day. You should, at the high-end, be able to draw every enemy at you, without fail, all game. Combined with Persistent Greater Visage, Holy Aura and Righteous wrath along with (if your DM doesn't kabosh it) Miracle'ing Giant Size & Bite of the WereBear for Persists as well... You can easily hit 60+ Str, 40+ Con, 40+ Cha at the high end.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 02:37 PM
Hey, I'm running a game for me and my friend, he read the neverending dungeon and wants to try a gestalt class. He says he wants to make a sorc/wiz but I'm not sure if that's a great idea for all 20. Maybe go sorc 15/wiz 15/ archmage 5? In gestalt does the +1 to caster level for spells apply to both classes or just wizard?No, archmage only progresses one caster class each level.

Also, I'm thinking of using a wizard 10/cleric 10// mystic theurge 10/ archmage 5/ monk 5 (for defensive bonuses)Your notation differs from the standard one. I believe you've meant Wizard10/MT10//Cleric10/Archmage5/Monk5. The monk levels would be useless, especially coming so late.

Is there any way to make cleric and wizard spells go off the same stat?Use Archivist. Int-based divine spells.

What about wizard and sorcerer spells on the same stat?Not that I know of, but Beguiler is an int-based caster that could go well with wizard.
Full casting is chewy.But having full casting on both sides is not as strong as you would think. On high levels, you'll have enough spell slots to go through the day with just with one, and you're still limited by the actions you can take.

gorfnab
2010-05-18, 02:44 PM
Hey, I'm running a game for me and my friend, he read the neverending dungeon and wants to try a gestalt class. He says he wants to make a sorc/wiz but I'm not sure if that's a great idea for all 20. Maybe go sorc 15/wiz 15/ archmage 5? In gestalt does the +1 to caster level for spells apply to both classes or just wizard?

Also, I'm thinking of using a wizard 10/cleric 10// mystic theurge 10/ archmage 5/ monk 5 (for defensive bonuses) Is there any way to make cleric and wizard spells go off the same stat? What about wizard and sorcerer spells on the same stat? Sorry if this is alot of questions, but I'm wanting him to survive a bit. :smallamused: Full casting is chewy.

First off the Mystic Theurge idea normally does not work in gestalt.


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.
Also, usually, in gestalt you'll want to pair a full caster with something that provides combat abilities/skills/hp. The problem with doing a gestalt character with more than one full casting side is that you can really only cast one spell around unless you are using a lot of quicken spells or swift spells. Wizard // Warblade, Sorcerer // Paladin, Cleric // Crusader, Druid // Swordsage, and Beguiler // Warblade would be just some examples of pairing a full caster with a combat oreinted class so that your character would less squishy and can cover more roles in a small party. Monk is really only good for a 2 level dip in most cases. Too get class abilities to go off of 1 stat look into here: X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Gnaeus
2010-05-18, 02:44 PM
Hey, I'm running a game for me and my friend, he read the neverending dungeon and wants to try a gestalt class. He says he wants to make a sorc/wiz but I'm not sure if that's a great idea for all 20. Maybe go sorc 15/wiz 15/ archmage 5? In gestalt does the +1 to caster level for spells apply to both classes or just wizard?

Sorc/Wiz is a terrible gestalt. It isn't actually much stronger than a single class sorcerer or wizard. Either class combos better with something like fighter, monk, Cleric or ranger (Better saves, HD, BaB, defenses). Outside core the list of better options is huge.


Also, I'm thinking of using a wizard 10/cleric 10// mystic theurge 10/ archmage 5/ monk 5 (for defensive bonuses) Is there any way to make cleric and wizard spells go off the same stat? What about wizard and sorcerer spells on the same stat? Sorry if this is alot of questions, but I'm wanting him to survive a bit. :smallamused: Full casting is chewy.

The gestalt rules suggest not to use dual progression classes like Mystic Theurge. You are DM, so that is up to you of course.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-18, 02:47 PM
Factotum 11/whatever//Wizard X/prestige classes is probably the most powerful option in gestalt. Druid//cleric is solid, but doesn't get quite as much synergy because of action economy. Monk is surprisingly good, but you still probably won't want too many levels of it.

gbprime
2010-05-18, 02:59 PM
Fighter 20 on the one side is just fine. All those bonus feats, the BAB, and select the Armored Mage alt feature, then re-buy medium armor and battle caster. This lets you use a full arcane caster build with PrC on the other side. Wizard 5 / Master Specialist 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 is potent, as you are your own concealment bonus and you have extra potent illusions.

Also, if you combine a few feats to pick up the Martial Spirit stance from ToB and light off a Magic Convalescence every now and again, you'll effectively be under a vigor effect for most of your career. :smallamused:

EDIT - not a sorc/wiz spell. my bad. :smalleek:

Gnaeus
2010-05-18, 03:05 PM
Fighter 20 on the one side is just fine. All those bonus feats, the BAB, and select the Armored Mage alt feature, then re-buy medium armor and battle caster. This lets you use a full arcane caster build with PrC on the other side. Wizard 5 / Master Specialist 10 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 is potent, as you are your own concealment bonus and you have extra potent illusions.

Also, if you combine a few feats to pick up the Martial Spirit stance from ToB and light off a Magic Convalescence every now and again, you'll effectively be under a vigor effect for most of your career. :smallamused:

It isn't terrible. But if you have ToB, you will do better with either Swordsage (tons of swift actions, it is easy to get light armor down to 0 ASF) or Warblade (better HP, Int synergy, great counters like Iron Heart Surge), than fighter.

riccaru
2010-05-18, 04:10 PM
So there isn't a way to base casting for a wizard/cleric off the same stat?
Also, I'm not too hot on the varient rules like ToB and Factotem. I really only use core and a few others. Instead of archmage 5 and monk 5 to some melee class. I could probably learn the ToB stuff, so which one of those should I use if any? I want to keep the wiz/cleric and the mystic theurge as is.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 04:13 PM
So there isn't a way to base casting for a wizard/cleric off the same stat?No.

Also, I'm not too hot on the varient rules like ToB and Factotum.They aren't "variant rules". Variant rules are (mostly) in UA.

riccaru
2010-05-18, 04:22 PM
They weren't published the same time as the other ones, so they're varient^_^

gbprime
2010-05-18, 04:26 PM
So there isn't a way to base casting for a wizard/cleric off the same stat?

Yes. Conditionally.

Archivist (Heroes of Horror) is a base class divine caster that uses INT. But it doesn't get all the goodies that cleric gets (turn undead, domains, spontaneous spells). And given your previous comment, you might consider it "variant" as well.

riccaru
2010-05-18, 04:48 PM
Well, I meant varient rules, like the other spell systems or the ToB martial stances and such.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 04:52 PM
Well, I meant varient rules, like the other spell systems or the ToB martial stances and such.It's spelled "variant", and different casting systems aren't variant rules. Using spellpoints or rituals for existing classes would be variant rules.

"Variant" would imply that you've changed existing rules instead of adding new ones.

Tao the Ninja
2010-05-18, 05:14 PM
Factotum 11/whatever//Wizard X/prestige classes is probably the most powerful option in gestalt. Druid//cleric is solid, but doesn't get quite as much synergy because of action economy. Monk is surprisingly good, but you still probably won't want too many levels of it.

if you can use Jade Pheonix Mage, Ive got a 20-level Gestalt build that nets BAB 20, Wizard Casting 20, Warblade IL 20, and Cunning Surge. Oh, and it focuses really heavily on Int. Basically, you put all 8 Factotum levels on the other side of the Jade Pheonix Mage levels that don't lose caster levels, and wizard on the levels that do.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-05-18, 05:30 PM
If your sick and tired of combining fighter classes with casters in gestalt, then there's always a rather obscure option people forget, the D20 Rokugan class known as the "courtier" Courtiers are basicly the absolute masters of non-combat encounters and the most skilled characters ever(at least to my knowledge) not factoring in int modifiers. They get a massive 8+int modifier skill points per level, beating even rogues in that department. They also get a massive class skills list which includes stuff like bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive and disguise among others. Now, pair that with a cha based caster and you got yourself a character who can solve things through subtly, manipulation and subterfuge and whip out some powerful spells if he finds his manipulation dose not work or is just in a spot where casting a spell would be really helpful. Some possible combinations include the following...

[Courtier 20]///[Sorcerer 20] OR [Sorcerer X/Some appropriate full CL progression PrC(s) X]

Powerful on and off the battlefield. Your a full tier 2 caster and don't even have to fight most non-monster enemies...you can just diplomance them into doing what you want. When you do have to fight you have your sorcerer spells at your disposal. If you wanted to make yourself go from good party face and diplomancer to god of diplomacy, take some enchantment spells like Charm person or one of my favorite spells in the game, Mind Rape.

[Courtier 20]///[Warmage] OR [Warmage X/Some appropriate full CL PrC(s) X]

Like the above but with a less versatile spell list. A plus is that you get to learn all your spells rather then just selecting a few like sorcerer. However, you do get some very nice offensive spells and you can be one nasty piece of heavy artillery on the battlefield while you are a nuke in social situations. This means unlike a full warmage you will have some other things your character can do besides blast things until their dead. Also, the warmage's edge goes well with a courtier since you will usually have high int for some of your special abilities.(Some courtier abilities run on the int modifier.

[Courtier 20]///[dread necromancer 20] OR [dread necromancer X/Some arcane advancing PrC(s) X]

An evil necromancer who can also manipulate people into doing what he wants...sounds like a great BBEG or evil party member. Oh, and for more fun with this, try using disguise and bluff to bring an undead army into a town without getting murdered for it. Also, this combination can make great use of intimidate. Simply pick up that feat which allows you to use intimidate to make people frightened and cowering in combat and you will be a better at melee then a melee focused class provided you have the right weapon's proficiency. If you don't want to go the gish route, that's fine too, dread necros get some great spells and are the best undead army makers in the game once they hit level 8.

[Courtier 20]///[Shugenja 20] Or [Shugenja 10/Dreadmaster 10] OR [Shugenja X/some divine advancing PrC(s) X]

Want to be the boss of an army of the living, use leadership and it's bonuses from dreadmaster. Shugenja is a fairly limited class spell-wise due to their element focus, and for a courtier/shugenja gestalt air has nice synergies with your manipulative nature. However you may want to chose another element to make up for your lack of combat skills such as fire for blasting. Alternatively, you may decide that you want to stay out of most combat encounters and act more as a sideline leader type who is the party face and party aid using either heals(water) or buffs(earth).

When I think of more ideas, I will post here.

PId6
2010-05-18, 05:42 PM
They get a massive 8+int modifier skill points per level, beating even rogues in that department. They also get a massive class skills list which includes stuff like bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, sense motive and disguise among others.
Rogues get 8+Int skill points too, with all of those skills as well. How exactly are courtiers superior?

sambo.
2010-05-18, 07:43 PM
the Gestalt i'd like to try out (assuming a dm would allow it):

Sorcerer 10/Abjurant Champion5/Archmage 5
Paladin10/Arcane Duellist 10

note that most of the Arcane Duellists funkyness is all Ex or Su abilities. so they'll work inside an AMF.

Koury
2010-05-18, 07:59 PM
note that most of the Arcane Duellists funkyness is all Ex or Su abilities. so they'll work inside an AMF.

(Su) can not be used (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) in an AMF.

EDIT: On topic, if you're willing to waive the standards of 'no dual-progression' and 'no dual PrCing,' this build is pretty solid:

Crusader//Wizard (Conj)
Cleric//Wizard (Conj)
Cleric//Master Specialist
Dread Necromancer//Master Specialist
Cleric//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//MS
RKV//Archmage
RKV//Archmage
RKV//Archmage
Sanctified One (Wee Jas)//Archmage
[Divine Caster] //Archmage
[Divine Caster]//[Full Caster]
[Divine Caster]//[Full Caster]
[Divine Caster]//[Full Caster]

Never really figured out a good ending to this, really. Taking Sanctified One to the end for Ruby Spell is certianly a valid choice.

Lysander
2010-05-18, 09:39 PM
Not quite as optimized, but what about a wizard/warlock? Kind of a fun combination. Unlimited invocations as your primary weapon/utility belt, plus wizard spells as big guns when necessary.

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-18, 09:54 PM
Wizard//Factotum is really nice. Ability synergies are your friend. Alternatively, you could go for massive Con synergy and do Dragon Shaman//Dragonfire Adept. Because of your Dragon Shaman's breath weapon, you can now apply metabreath feats to your breath weapons. Oh and there's the benefit of having a bunch of hp. Or you could go back to Int synergy and take wizard//warblade, but then you mentioned not liking ToB or Factotum... which is too bad because of the wealth of ToB homebrew here on the forums. In any case, Lore Master isn't a bad PrC if you're looking for one for wizard, Rogue might be a nice second class for the extra skill points. Don't think about taking another caster, you have enough spells on your hands as it is. I'd suggest sorcadin for another gish option, but I'm not really sure how to do it.

EDIT: Oh and if you must, only take the one level dip in monk, and take druid as your caster class.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-05-18, 10:01 PM
I forgot rogues get 8+int, so sorry for the confusion.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-18, 10:19 PM
I'd have to say that factotums are the best skill users in the game. 6+Int skill points (but it uses Int to the exclusion of everything but Con), every single skill in the entire game, class level as a bonus to every single skill 1/day, +Int to all Str and Dex checks (including initiative, skills, trips, bull-rushes, etc), and they get a ton of other yummy abilities (such as ignoring SR/DR, extra standard actions, wizard spells as spell-like abilities, Int to AC and saves, Int to attack bonuses, sneak attack, trapfinding, and more).

They're great in a normal game, and phenomenal in gestalt. Quite probably the best gestalting class.