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Viskocity
2010-05-18, 03:31 PM
Hi, all

this is my first post in these forums and I have a query about a character in a campaign I am in right now. Our party has recently come across a group of vampires who, while aggressive, might be willing to cooperate, as I have an item of considerable use to them. Seeing as how I play a chaotic evil (chaotic crazy) character, I thought it might be interesting to get turned into an undead.

I know the traditional undead to become as a full caster wizard (10th level) is a lich, but since it is available at no (apparent) cost, I am considering vampirism instead. So, any suggestions regarding overcoming the downsides of being a vampire or undead in general? To be clear, I am comfortable with my power level right now, and I recognize the implications of such a huge level adjustment for a caster (not good [at all!{even more parentheses!!!}]). So, caveats aside, what am I in for?

Calmar
2010-05-18, 03:38 PM
If you get bitten, aren't you a undead 10th-level fullcaster wizard - under the control of a vampire, then? :smallconfused:

Boci
2010-05-18, 03:38 PM
Reflavoured necropolitant? (Can be seen on crystalkeep.com under templates.)

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 03:42 PM
Hi, all

this is my first post in these forums and I have a query about a character in a campaign I am in right now. Our party has recently come across a group of vampires who, while aggressive, might be willing to cooperate, as I have an item of considerable use to them. Seeing as how I play a chaotic evil (chaotic crazy) character, I thought it might be interesting to get turned into an undead.

I know the traditional undead to become as a full caster wizard (10th level) is a lich, but since it is available at no (apparent) cost, I am considering vampirism instead. So, any suggestions regarding overcoming the downsides of being a vampire or undead in general? To be clear, I am comfortable with my power level right now, and I recognize the implications of such a huge level adjustment for a caster (not good [at all!{even more parentheses!!!}]). So, caveats aside, what am I in for?

Well, being a Vampire basically gives you about 250 different random vulnerabilities you'll need magic to overcome. It also gives you an insane level adjustment for the abilities, mostly for stuff you'd get from being a Wizard anyways. This delays you being able to actually deal with your weaknesses for a while. You can't cross running water (so teleport; simplest is probably Benign Transposition with your familiar), you can't deal with garlic or holy symbols (so turn their wielders into toads, or just convert them into something less unsightly), Disintegrate absolutely wrecks you (so Spell Turning + Spell Immunity + Fort-save buffing), you can't enter homes (in other words, you can't enter just about anything for a broad definition of "home"; so just remove the whole environment), etc.

Viskocity
2010-05-18, 03:43 PM
If you get bitten, aren't you a undead 10th-level fullcaster wizard - under the control of a vampire, then? :smallconfused:

There is some reflavoring going on behind the scenes here. First and foremost is a rosebush which the group has used in the past to vampirize paying nobles.

edit- Eldariel, you brought up a good point with some of the weaknesses, particularly with the home entering issue. I realize that this is largely DM fiat, but what counts as a home in this instance? Would I not be able to enter caves with ogres in them, or even an ant colony?

Ravens_cry
2010-05-18, 03:46 PM
Is there any <alternate ability score> to constitution for concentration checks?

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 03:48 PM
Is there any <alternate ability score> to constitution for concentration checks?

Undead use Charisma by default (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType).

Ravens_cry
2010-05-18, 04:01 PM
Undead use Charisma by default (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType).
Well that helps. Thanks.

demidracolich
2010-05-18, 04:23 PM
Check out this vampire template with significantly less LA by The Demented One.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58213&highlight=revised+vampire+template

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-18, 06:56 PM
I think the biggest problem is being under the control of the vampire who sires you for as long as that vampire lives. Kind of a downer, eh?

Viskocity
2010-05-18, 08:14 PM
I think the biggest problem is being under the control of the vampire who sires you for as long as that vampire lives. Kind of a downer, eh?

Again, I have evidence that they have transformed npcs in the past. Normally they have had to pay, but I have a bargaining chip which may prove to be useful.

PinkysBrain
2010-05-18, 08:38 PM
You will never level again (effectively, because of the huge LA). You have a grocery list of restrictions how/where you can go. The only mechanical strength of the template requires you to fundamentally change the way you play your character, you have to start directing your spawn rather than doing things yourself.

PS. chain spawning should of course be houseruled into oblivion (for all undead).

demidracolich
2010-05-18, 08:43 PM
With the template I posted above, there isn't nearly as much LA and you don't instantly die from sunlight unless you take that extra weakness.

Viskocity
2010-05-18, 08:53 PM
I did indeed look at your alternative vampire template and it looks very tempting. I bookmarked it for later just in case.

Also, an interesting fact I dug up with some research: resurrection works normally on a vampire. The kicker is that it resurrects you as you were before you became undead. Unfortunately I can't remember if it was in Liber Mortis or elsewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would seem to mean that I have an effective 'reset button' if things end up going totally sideways.

PinkysBrain
2010-05-18, 08:59 PM
Id go further than that revised template ... make Create Spawn a +2 LA salient ability (it's very powerful, but most people wouldn't really use it any way) and make the basic template +1.

demidracolich
2010-05-18, 09:17 PM
That would be hilarous and awesome at the same time. Reducing one of the templates with the highest LA to +1. (though it would probably be higher if you want other salient abilities.) Also, how would you fluff some vampires not being able to create spawn?

Siosilvar
2010-05-18, 09:21 PM
That would be hilarous and awesome at the same time. Reducing one of the templates with the highest LA to +1. (though it would probably be higher if you want other salient abilities.) Also, how would you fluff some vampires not being able to create spawn?

"Only the most talented of vampires know the arcane secret of transferring their vampirism, etc."

EDIT(to explain): Perhaps it's a ritual of some sort?

demidracolich
2010-05-18, 09:26 PM
Or mabye not all vampires can control the amount of blood they drain and somehow end up killing their targets each time instead of turning them into vampires. Also I would definitely use this one one of my future characters because it is now one of the lowest LA undead templates out there.

PinkysBrain
2010-05-18, 09:26 PM
That would be hilarous and awesome at the same time. Reducing one of the templates with the highest LA to +1. (though it would probably be higher if you want other salient abilities.) Also, how would you fluff some vampires not being able to create spawn?
They're just lesser vampires.

I would use the Undead Hunger variant rule from Libris Mortis BTW.

Lysander
2010-05-18, 09:27 PM
Another option you can consider is ghost. Pretty good option for a caster what with their semi-immortality, etherealness, miss chance, etc. Might be hard to add new spells to your book...but maybe you can get a ghost touch spellbook or a ghost touch quill or something?

Flame of Anor
2010-05-18, 09:34 PM
Or mabye not all vampires can control the amount of blood they drain and somehow end up killing their targets each time instead of turning them into vampires.

Hmm, Twilight much? :smallwink:

Viskocity
2010-05-19, 03:33 AM
A few more questions regarding the leveling process...

1- Since my character is effectively 18th level, does he/she/it get feats as normal for an 18th level character?
2-If so, could they qualify for things like practiced spellcaster?
3-Would the DM feel an overwhelming urge to throw books at my head (makes me grateful that we only keep core books on hand :smalltongue:)?
4-What other useful feats would be available?

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:45 AM
A few more questions regarding the leveling process...

1- Since my character is effectively 18th level, does he/she/it get feats as normal for an 18th level character?
2-If so, could they qualify for things like practiced spellcaster?
3-Would the DM feel an overwhelming urge to throw books at my head (makes me grateful that we only keep core books on hand :smalltongue:)?
4-What other useful feats would be available?1. No. Doh.
2. See 1. RE: getting feats. Practiced Spellcaster is capped at your HD, not your ECL.
3. Not likely, since you would be gimping yourself. Not all DMs might realize it though.
4. Power Attack.

Viskocity
2010-05-19, 03:59 AM
Thanks for the clarification. The SRD is being difficult right now, so I couldn't find the info myself. Links appreciated.

On the topic of power attack, the caster in question currently has 6 strength. Note that this is before becoming a vampire. Afterwards, he/she/it will have a strength score of a whopping 12 points. Impressive, isn't it? Also, as a multiclassing wizard, it's BAB is around 4. Of course this is somewhat rendered moot through liberal application of polymorph, but that's a whole different problem:smallwink:.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-19, 09:19 AM
On the topic of power attack, the caster in question currently has 6 strength. Note that this is before becoming a vampire. Afterwards, he/she/it will have a strength score of a whopping 12 points. Impressive, isn't it? Also, as a multiclassing wizard, it's BAB is around 4. Of course this is somewhat rendered moot through liberal application of polymorph, but that's a whole different problem:smallwink:.

The point is you don't really get any useful feats.

Basically, you're 12th level for all purposes except experience points and encounter level.

deephelldragon
2010-05-19, 09:46 AM
Well, being a Vampire basically gives you about 250 different random vulnerabilities you'll need magic to overcome. It also gives you an insane level adjustment for the abilities, mostly for stuff you'd get from being a Wizard anyways. This delays you being able to actually deal with your weaknesses for a while. You can't cross running water (so teleport; simplest is probably Benign Transposition with your familiar), you can't deal with garlic or holy symbols (so turn their wielders into toads, or just convert them into something less unsightly), Disintegrate absolutely wrecks you (so Spell Turning + Spell Immunity + Fort-save buffing), you can't enter homes (in other words, you can't enter just about anything for a broad definition of "home"; so just remove the whole environment), etc.

I have to agree with this there is just so many vulnerabilities that i dont think that it is worth it and the la is not worth it so just become a lich or dont go undead unless your willing to deal with all of the stuff that comes with being a vampire.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 09:53 AM
edit- Eldariel, you brought up a good point with some of the weaknesses, particularly with the home entering issue. I realize that this is largely DM fiat, but what counts as a home in this instance? Would I not be able to enter caves with ogres in them, or even an ant colony?

It's unclear and that's the issue; buildings with people living in them are homes, but so could be most dungeons, for example. I don't think ants count, but it's hard to make a case against humanoid-shape creatures inhabiting a locale; that locale is clearly their home and if it's somehow sealed (with door or whatever), chance are you cannot enter. May want to work with your DM on this one.

taltamir
2010-05-19, 10:05 AM
lichs at least get to be very very tough for their LA...
Vampires suck (hurr hurr :P).
As mentioned, vampires give you a whole laundry list of vulnerabilities you don't have as a mortal... so you might as well remain living.


Vampire Weaknesses
For all their power, vampires have a number of weaknesses.

Repelling a Vampire
Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.

Vampires are also unable to cross running water, although they can be carried over it while resting in their coffins or aboard a ship.

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

Slaying a Vampire
Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it (see the note on fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight disorients it: It can take only a single move action or attack action and is destroyed utterly in the next round if it cannot escape. Similarly, immersing a vampire in running water robs it of one-third of its hit points each round until it is destroyed at the end of the third round of immersion. Driving a wooden stake through a vampire’s heart instantly slays the monster. However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the body is destroyed. A popular tactic is to cut off the creature’s head and fill its mouth with holy wafers (or their equivalent).

You are technically a vampire spawn, which means:
1. you are under the control of your sire
2. you gain less abilities then a regular vampire, but share all their vulnerabilities.

As a +8LA, being turned into a vampire means yout level 10 wizard is now an "effective character level" of 18. this means you still cast as a 10th level wizard, but you gain XP as an 18th level wizard.

JellyPooga
2010-05-19, 10:27 AM
As a Wizard, there really isn't that many Undead templates that will be of any specific benefit to you...most give good bonuses to Charisma, Strength and Dexterity but little in the way of Intelligence. This makes it hard to reconcile the Undead abilities with Wizard ones. With this in mind, you should look for the lowest ECL Undead (Racial HD + LA) to aquire...Lich is probably one fo the best out there aside from Necropolitan as most others give you Racial HD as well (which, while better than Level Adjustment, are not good).

Still, if you really want to become Undead, Ghouls/Ghasts at least get some Int bonus and very few weaknesses compared to some other Undead, but are better suited to more martial classes to be honest. A Wight Wizard might be interesting, especially if you are a sneaky/illusionist/mind-control type Wizard. As has been mentioned, Ghosts have relatively little LA and a slew of benficial abilities but suffer from, well...being a ghost; unless your GM is very generous, you could have all manner of problems as a Ghost. I would steer well clear of Vampire, if only because of the weaknesses; as with ghost, unless your GM is very generous, your Wizard could become unplayable very quickly...dealing with those weaknesses will become a chore and when part of your character becomes a chore, it stops being fun playing that character (or you will forget about them altogether and be getting something for nothing).

Frog Dragon
2010-05-19, 10:37 AM
Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, is about the only one worth it for a caster. It loses one level and 1000 xp. Now this is not nearly as bad as LA, as all you're losing in the end is XP. You'll gain it back soon enough.

Trenelus
2010-05-19, 12:13 PM
That would be hilarous and awesome at the same time. Reducing one of the templates with the highest LA to +1. (though it would probably be higher if you want other salient abilities.) Also, how would you fluff some vampires not being able to create spawn?

They are Thin Bloods, of cource :smalltongue:.

"Your blood is thin and weak, and thus you are unable to create another vampire; you can merely sustain your own unlife."

Or perhaps a curse, doomed to wander alone?

Greenish
2010-05-19, 12:19 PM
On the topic of power attack, the caster in question currently has 6 strength. Note that this is before becoming a vampire. Afterwards, he/she/it will have a strength score of a whopping 12 points. Impressive, isn't it? Also, as a multiclassing wizard, it's BAB is around 4. Of course this is somewhat rendered moot through liberal application of polymorph, but that's a whole different problem:smallwink:.Real men rush to combat wearing nothing but their elaborately pleated beard, toting a greatsword with Power Attack cranked to full. Even especially wizards.

PinkysBrain
2010-05-19, 01:10 PM
A few more questions regarding the leveling process...
What leveling process? With the standard vampire template you are 8 ECL higher than your fellow party members, you won't be leveling for a while.

4-What other useful feats would be available?
See above.

As I said, in the long run the only way to play the monster manual vampire is as a puppet master ... his ridiculous LA is balanced around his spawning ability, so you better make use of it.

Roderick_BR
2010-05-19, 01:39 PM
If you get bitten, aren't you a undead 10th-level fullcaster wizard - under the control of a vampire, then? :smallconfused:
Pay a group of adventurers to kill it for you. Worked in that Demolition Man movie.

Vampire is also nice for cleric. You can harm enemies or heal yourself (and allies if they are undead or get that tomb tainted feat) without needing to worry about preparing/spontaneously cast heal/harm spells. And high hit dice, strength bonus, and natural armor is better for frontliners than pure casters.

WoodenSword
2010-05-19, 02:05 PM
Vampire vs Lich. I say Vampire makes the better gish/leadership monkey whereas the Lich is a mage extraorinairre.

If you like Vamp (like I do), ask your DM to be a Daywalker (yes, Blade reference) and be like Dracula

Greenish
2010-05-19, 03:25 PM
And high hit dice… is better for frontliners than pure casters.The vampire d12 hitdice still means you lose a huge chunk of hitpoints when you become one.

Vampire vs Lich. I say Vampire makes the better gish/leadership monkey whereas the Lich is a mage extraorinairre.Nah, they suck, both. LA only exists to mess you up if you want to play races WotC didn't want you to play, and it does it well.

If you like Vamp (like I do), ask your DM to be a Daywalker (yes, Blade reference) and be like DraculaThat you can replicate with spells, I'd be more worried about not getting invited in.

Besides, how are you a vampire when you waltz around in full daylight munching on garlic?

demidracolich
2010-05-19, 05:14 PM
Nah, they suck, both. LA only exists to mess you up if you want to play races WotC didn't want you to play, and it does it well.

Did you noticed the revised template that we revised to +1LA above?

Greenish
2010-05-19, 05:32 PM
Did you noticed the revised template that we revised to +1LA above?I did not, but since Wooden Sword compared the vampire to a lich (and declared the lich better for casters), I assumed he referred to normal vampire template.

Bogardan_Mage
2010-05-21, 04:43 AM
Hmm, Twilight much? :smallwink:
Or any of the thousands of other works of vampire fiction that came before it and had that exact same system.