Is the Crimson Mantle consistent? (SOD SPOILERS)

[Qwertystop]

I noticed that in SOD, when redcloak first gets the Crimson Mantle, he quickly becomes near-obsessed with the "Plan", but his predecessor seems to just be a normal goblin e.g. working more on the small scale of the town, less on a convoluted plot to blackmail the gods.

Does this make anyone else think that the Dark One might not be trying to d what he says he is, or that he might have told each bearer of the Mantle something different?

[doodthedud]

I noticed that in SOD, when redcloak first gets the Crimson Mantle, he quickly becomes near-obsessed with the "Plan", but his predecessor seems to just be a normal goblin e.g. working more on the small scale of the town, less on a convoluted plot to blackmail the gods.

Does this make anyone else think that the Dark One might not be trying to d what he says he is, or that he might have told each bearer of the Mantle something different?

People react to things differently.

[Thanatosia]

That's pretty much the basis for my thread about 5 below yours on the page: The Dark One - The True Villain of the Story? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150822)

Of Course, these forums being what they are, its pretty much gotten derailed into a "is the Dark Ones plan morally justified" discussion.

[NerfTW]

I noticed that in SOD, when redcloak first gets the Crimson Mantle, he quickly becomes near-obsessed with the "Plan", but his predecessor seems to just be a normal goblin e.g. working more on the small scale of the town, less on a convoluted plot to blackmail the gods.

Does this make anyone else think that the Dark One might not be trying to d what he says he is, or that he might have told each bearer of the Mantle something different?

That was an immediate effect of a massive information dump into his brain. Notice that he then spends four years presumably building a new army of goblins.

Both were working towards the same goal, Redcloak just happened to run into Xykon and was able to set the plan in motion. His predecessor likely had the same issue Redcloak had of there being no goblin wizards to do the other half of the ritual.

[Conuly]

Redcloak was also younger and less experienced than his predecessor when he took the mantle. He'd just been ordained a few hours ago - in fact, he said something about that at the time, but there was nobody else to take it anymore. (:smallfrown:).

Maybe having more levels (and remaining family) when he put it on would've made him less easily obsessed with The Plan.

[NerfTW]

Well, he was also viewing the extermination of his entire village and his entire order. Taken in context, being obsessed with making sure the plan (and the cloak, by extension) survived makes perfect sense.


We really can't compare a calm town ritual to the heat of battle.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The other thing: How many times in the main strip has Redcloak referred to “The Plan” as such? It’s hardly every other panel, which would be the rate the previous high priest pretty much would have had to been bringing it up for such an obsession to appear with him in SoD. As NerfTW said, it’s pretty much a matter of the high priest having a chance to mellow out after a big info dump.

[Zxo]

I also think that in peaceful circumstances the old high priest prepares the new one for what he is about to see when he dons the Mantle and how to interpret it. Redcloak received no such advice.

[Kish]

Might the Crimson Mantle convey different information, either slightly or massively, to each new High Priest? Sure, it's possible.

Might the Dark One have plans he hasn't told Redcloak? Certainly.

Might the creator gods not be right bastards? Insupportable.

[NerfTW]

Might the creator gods not be right bastards? Insupportable.

How so? If you agree that the Dark One may have lied to Red Cloak, you can't automatically assume that the story of the monster races is true. In fact, at this point we can't even trust that the story of the Snarl is true. Well, aside from the fact that it clearly reached out and attacked people, and two separate sides have verified that.

The gods could be perfectly justified. For all we know, the monster races were NOT created for XP gain, and were simply on the losing end of wars and the Dark One made up the rest.

[The Pilgrim]

In fact, at this point we can't even trust that the story of the Snarl is true. Well, aside from the fact that it clearly reached out and attacked people, and two separate sides have verified that.

Well, seems that something come out and attacked... but is that something the Snarl? We haven't seen it in action in the Comic, neither the prequels, beyond in Crayons.

In fact the only character that has taken a look inside the Rift and survived, Blackwing, has seen nothing like the Snarl.

[Kish]

How so?

Redcloak's crayon story has the "monster" races created as cannon fodder. Shojo's crayon story...still has the gods acting like petty, squabbling children.

I cannot prove that Redcloak's crayon story--and even, somehow, Shojo's--are not pure lies made up from whole cloth by a Dark One who was sociopathic from the moment he was born...can't prove it. What I can prove, is:


Most damning, though, is a decades-long history of paladins exterminating entire villages of goblins and other humanoids at the behest of their gods [...]. The Twelve Gods may have sanctioned the paladins' massacres, but even the gods can't stop Karma from kicking them in their divine asses once in a while.


So, the Twelve Gods are inarguably guilty of having their followers exterminate entire villages of goblins and other humanoids. Guilty of sanctioning massacres. As for the Gods of the North and West...I can't prove that they're not pure and good. What I believe is that it is true that the "monster" races were created to be cannon fodder by gods who acted exactly as callously as they've acted on the few occasions they've been on-stage. The Dark One may well have lied to Redcloak, but if he did, I'm inclined to think that the substance of the lie was not, "The other gods are bad," but, "I still think like a goblin, not like a god, therefore I am not essentially bad in the same totally-callous-toward-mortals way they all are now."

The point of Start of Darkness is not going to turn out to be, "Redcloak was right every time he ground his teeth and whispered 'it will all be worth it' about following Xykon," and it's not going to turn out to be, "Goblins deserve what they get," either.

[Studoku]

I also think that in peaceful circumstances the old high priest prepares the new one for what he is about to see when he dons the Mantle and how to interpret it. Redcloak received no such advice.

Since the crimson mantle stops its wearer aging, it's not an unreasonable assumption that it would usually be passed on by the current bearer being killed.

[Zevox]

Since the crimson mantle stops its wearer aging
Correction: slows its wearer's aging, not stops.

Zevox

[factotum]

Correction: slows its wearer's aging, not stops.

Zevox

Given what we've seen in the comic, there might not be much of a difference--Redcloak certainly seems hale and hearty at an age where any normal goblin would be an old man. In any case, we know for a fact that both Redcloak's mentor and the previous holder of the Crimson Mantle were killed by the Sapphire Guard

because his spirit says so while encouraging Redcloak to put on the cloak in SoD.

[Dark Matter]

Does this make anyone else think that the Dark One might not be trying to d what he says he is, or that he might have told each bearer of the Mantle something different?Lying (or withholding inconvenient truths) is part of the LE package.


Shojo's crayon story...still has the gods acting like petty, squabbling children.We've seen this in 3rd person omniscient too. Thor mostly.


What I can prove, is:...

So, the Twelve Gods are inarguably guilty of having their followers exterminate entire villages of goblins and other humanoids. Guilty of sanctioning massacres. As for the Gods of the North and West...I can't prove that they're not pure and good. What I believe is that it is true that the "monster" races were created to be cannon fodder by gods who acted exactly as callously as they've acted on the few occasions they've been on-stage. The Dark One may well have lied to Redcloak, but if he did, I'm inclined to think that the substance of the lie was not, "The other gods are bad," but, "I still think like a goblin, not like a god, therefore I am not essentially bad in the same totally-callous-toward-mortals way they all are now."The gods actions are a response to the Dark One's "Plan" (this is stated out right by one the Paladins in SOD).

Ergo we're not seeing acts of "callousness" (i.e. uncaring indifference) towards monsters/mortals (except perhaps from the Dark One himself). We're seeing "everyone who is even in the slightest way involved in the Plan, or who has even the slightest chance of carrying the plan forward, must die".

EDIT: Oh, and on a side note, I doubt "pure and good" describes any of the gods. They're more Greek-God-ish (where they can be a good-person) rather than "the concept of Good". These Gods created the planes of existence, thus while there are "creatures of pure good", the gods themselves don't need to fit that description.

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe the Dark One only told Red Cloak because he is destined to bring balance to the force and as we all know only the really evil people can do that. Hence, all Red Cloak predecessors weren't up for the task.