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Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-18, 05:59 PM
I am someone who has been playing D&D for a few years now and have wanted my characters to be the best they can be. But in doing this their builds become what is considered 'Broken', or so close to it that it doesn't matter. So I'm posting this thread so that I can see what all of you have come up with in your playing of the game.

To summerize, I want people to post their favorite Overpowered/Broken Builds here, (1-20 all feats included, and if possible list your source books).

Whether it be a Wizard that basically never stops casting a powerhouse spell, to a Barbarian who carves through anything in his path, i want to see it.

And thanks to all who decide to post.

(If there is already a thread like this please post a redirect link in your post.)

One of my Favorites:

Half-Elf
1. Monk: (Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Fighting [Monk]), Iron Will
2. Monk: (Combat Reflexes [Monk])
3. Swashbuckler: (Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler]), Great Fortitude
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Fighter: (Power Attack [Fighter]), Alertness
7. Fighter: (Weapon Focus – Great Sword [Fighter])
8. Fist of the Forest
9. Fist of the Forest: Dodge
10. Divine Champion
11. Divine Champion: (Combat Expertise [Divine Champion])
12. Shiba Protector: Toughness
13. Dragon Warrior
14. Dragon Warrior
15. Cleric: Mobility
16. Shadow Dancer
17. Shadow Dancer
18. Cleric: Improved Natural Attack
19. Cleric
20. Mystic Wanderer
Sources Used: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, Oriental Adventures, Players Guide to Faerun, Magic of Faerun, and Dragon Magazine #298.

EDIT: *Sorry, Spring Attack was from a previous version of the Build, but this one doesn't need it, so it was replaced with Improved Natural Attack*

Gauntlet
2010-05-18, 06:01 PM
Have a present. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:06 PM
Have a present. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)

Note, the OP is obsolete. Pun-Pun is now a level 1 Kobold Paladin. Kobold because...well, long story, and Paladin because Pazuzu grants them Wishes particularly readily. Sources needed: Core, Serpent Kingdoms, Fiendish Codex I.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-18, 06:07 PM
Let me make an amend, I don't want to see Pun-Pun, yes I know he is better than the gods but he isn't ment to be played and I want to see what EVERYONE has to offer to the Overpowered/Broken Build List.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 06:07 PM
Half-Elf
1. Monk: (Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Fighting [Monk]), Iron Will
2. Monk: (Combat Reflexes [Monk])
3. Swashbuckler: (Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler]), Great Fortitude
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Fighter: (Power Attack [Fighter]), Alertness
7. Fighter: (Weapon Focus – Great Sword [Fighter])
8. Fist of the Forest
9. Fist of the Forest: Dodge
10. Divine Champion
11. Divine Champion: (Combat Expertise [Divine Champion])
12. Shiba Protector: Toughness
13. Dragon Warrior
14. Dragon Warrior
15. Cleric: Mobility
16. Shadow Dancer
17. Shadow Dancer
18. Cleric: Spring Attack
19. Cleric
20. Mystic Wanderer
Sources Used: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, Oriental Adventures, Players Guide to Faerun, Magic of Faerun, and Dragon Magazine #298.
How is that broken? It seems kinda weak, what with spring attacks and toughness and so forth. And half-elf?

Anyway, how about druid10/Planar Shepherd10 with Natural Spell.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-18, 06:11 PM
How is that broken? It seems kinda weak, what with spring attacks and toughness and so forth. And half-elf?

Half-Elf because I like Half-Elves and You add your Con/Wis(x2)/Cha to your AC and your Dex(instead of Str)/Wis/Int to damage

Boci
2010-05-18, 06:14 PM
Half-Elf because I like Half-Elves and You add your Con/Wis(x2)/Cha to your AC and your Dex(instead of Str)/Wis/Int to damage

It is very clear from that that your concept of broken dioes not match the normal definition used on this site, even with a bit a leeway.

Icewraith
2010-05-18, 06:15 PM
IF you pump wis I can see that as being really nice, but not broken unless you're in a really high point buy or open rolling and have, say, 3-4 18s.

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:15 PM
Well:

- Illithid Savant anything: Qualify with Polymorph Any Object, rest...doesn't really matter; eat few brains, become infinitely powerful, etc.
- Beholder Mage anything: Qualify with Polymorph Any Object, 9 free action spells per turn is good, I hear, especially with spontaneous Wizard-casting.
- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: Not going there.
- Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace: No.
- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: NO!
- Planar Shepherd: NO!!!!
- Dweomerkeeper: NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
- Hulking Hurler: Yeah, no.

All of that...is just too easy and not really even funny. Actually, most of Forgotten Realms material belongs in there... Yeah, it's that bad (see the Incantatrix-line? All of that, except for SCM, is FR specific).


So...that's it for the easiest ones off the top of my head (misses a few but I did that in a hurry). Anything more specific you'd want to hear about, or any kind of limitation in power?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 06:18 PM
any race, Necropolitan wizard/Tainted scholar.
Tainted Scholar is from heroes of horror and Wizard is core rules.

imperialspectre
2010-05-18, 06:19 PM
I'm sitting here wondering if the OP is a well-presented satire or several paragraphs of undiluted noobishness. Either way is pretty funny, so the OP gets credit for making me smile through a splitting headache.

Have a cookie.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/SugarCookie.JPG

Greenish
2010-05-18, 06:22 PM
Half-Elf because I like Half-Elves and You add your Con/Wis(x2)/Cha to your AC and your Dex(instead of Str)/Wis/Int to damageWhat's with the Spring Attack then? You'll be getting off one kinda weak attack per turn using it.

And Toughness? It leads me to conclude that my leg has been successfully pulled.

Asheram
2010-05-18, 06:22 PM
I'm sitting here wondering if the OP is a well-presented satire or several paragraphs of undiluted noobishness. Either way is pretty funny, so the OP gets credit for making me smile through a splitting headache.

Have a cookie.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/SugarCookie.JPG

Whoa, that's a big cookie!

SurlySeraph
2010-05-18, 06:23 PM
The Twice-Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar) is broken. The King of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866038/The_king_of_smack.) is broken.

Olo Demonsbane has a few great builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=6ijamprbio9sv7evc6847unou4&topic=7062.msg245364#msg245364), and I hope he'll show up with some of his ineffable, Hollywood-explosion-filled optimization wisdom. The Cleric/ Prestige Paladin build with Sword of the Arcane Order is particularly nice: simple, straightforward, and nearly a fullcaster with all spells automatically quickened. The use of Lightning Maces for nigh-infinite strings of attacks is a real classic.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-18, 06:24 PM
What's with the Spring Attack then? You'll be getting off one kinda weak attack per turn using it.

And Toughness? It leads me to conclude that my leg has been successfully pulled.

Sorry about the Spring attack, that was edited so the build is right in the original post, and all the feats are needed to take the Classes, all of the Feats used (except Improved Natural attack [Which replaced the Spring Attack]) are necessary.

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:26 PM
The King of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866038/The_king_of_smack.) is broken.

I'd contest that. The King of Smack is merely a well-optimized Psychic Warrior, nothing more. It's not even a full caster and uses mere Metamorphosis over the grander big brothers. Size category scaling of UA Strikes and lots of natural attacks with relatively poor attack bonus...it's the definition of "fair".

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-18, 06:41 PM
Another good one in my Opinion:


Human
1. Sorcerer Iron Will / Combat Casting
2. Sorcerer
3. Sorcerer Eschew Materials
4. Sorcerer
5. Sorcerer
6. Incantatar (Still Spell) Silent Spell
7. Incantatar
8. Incantatar
9. Incantatar ( Energy Substitution [Element of your choice]), Residual Magic
10. Incantatar
11. Incantatar
12. Incantatar (Energy Admixture [Element of your choice]), Weapon Focus [Ray]
13. Incantatar
14. Incantatar
15. Incantatar (Violate Spell [maybe]), Split Ray
16. War-Mage
17. War-Mage (Maximize Spell)
18. War-Mage Arcane Thesis (Ray Spell)
19. War-Mage (Empower Spell)
20. War-Mage
Sources Used: Player's Handbook, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Mage, Complete Arcane?(I forget), and Age of Mortals, Book of Vile Darkness.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 06:42 PM
Heck, I could take that build easy with Takahashi, even with a seven-level differential...

Basically Intimidation-version of Diplomacy. Use Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, plus the armor enhancement from the same source to let him Intimidate as a move action, then use a PrC to Take 10 on it, giving you a flat 46 DC level + wis mod + mods to fear effects check, or be Cowering. For everything in a 30' radius.

Scariest CW Samurai alive...

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:44 PM
ScariestThe only CW Samurai alive...

Fixed that for you.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-05-18, 06:44 PM
Heck, I could take that build easy with Takahashi, even with a seven-level differential...

Lets see how you like roughly a 450 damage ray spell blasting at your face with no save...

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-18, 06:44 PM
Bubs, Venerable Strongheart Halfling Commoner3/Marshal1

Traits and Flaws
Uncivilized
Murky-eyed


Feats
Flaw - Flexible Mind = +1
Human - Animal Affinity
1 - Skill Focus: Handle Animal
3 - Dinosaur Wrangler


Cha can be as high as 22 (18 base, +3 age, +1 ap)

Buy an Animal Trainer's Kit

Beg the DM for a custom item of Handle Animal (we can technically afford up to a +7 item, depending on your cheese tolerance).

Activate a Marshal Aura of Motivate Charisma.

Become an affiliate of the "Animal Domain" organization (Complete Champion page 30); you only need a +4 affiliate score, and taking full ranks in Handle Animal and Know:Nature gets you there.



Total Handle Animal score: 37 (7ranks +6cha, +6aura, +7 item, +2kit, +2affinity, +3focus, +2affiliate, +1trait, +1flexible), with an additional +4 against Dinosaurs.



Now, the DC to rear a wild animal is 15 + the animal's HD, and doing so gets you up to three of that kind of animal. The DCs to train it afterwards are constant, so that's good. Assuming take 10 is allowed, or we get merely average rolls, we can reliably rear wild animals of up to 32 HD. This includes such fun ones as the Dire Rhinoceros (CR 9) and Dire Elephant (CR 10). However, we also get a +4 with Dinosaurs, raising the limit up to 36.

If you guessed that I was going to roll out a 36 HD dinosaur, you're on the money. Meet the Battletitan. At the low end of CR 16, it's not going to be soloing the Tarrasque any time soon. But with AC 35, four natural attacks that are not going to miss, legendary hp, impressive saves, a Str score better than a Storm Giant, Improved Grab, and a buttload of feats to customize with... yeah, you'll be travelling in style. And for all your effort, you get three of these.

At level four.

You can also raise Magical Beasts of up to 17 HD. I'm sure there's all sorts of fun there, too, but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.)


Bubs the Commoner, copied from the version in sonofzeal's signature. Looks fun and with those kinds of allies almost definitely broken. Only level four, which may not meet the OP's requirements. Sources that I can remember without looking up: Miniatures Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Champion. Good enough?

Edit:@^ You have to win initiative first and seven levels of Wizard casting is enough for Polymorph, which may require some caster level boosts (e.g. Practiced Spellcaster, CArc, +4 to a max of HD) to get Dire Tortoise. If that's possible (with seven levels worth of feats, class features and wealth) you probably lose unless you did the same, in which case you'd require an actual initiative roll (which can be improved with anything left over from the seven unused levels). Also, ~450 damage in one turn at level twenty is not that great. Why are you taking Warmage levels (Warmage Edge only applies to spells cast as a Warmage IIRC)? Why are you focusing those Split Ray, Maximise, Empower metamagics on a damage spell when you could get better results from Enervation whilst saving the feats wasted on Energy Subsitution? If you focus on damage regardless why take Energy Substitution over Searing Spell? What spell is giving you this damage anyway? Your "build" is irritatingly vague.

Heavily ninja'd.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 06:46 PM
Lets see how you like roughly a 450 damage ray spell blasting at your face with no save...

Was referring to OP, but how can you cast a ray when you are cowering like a 1/2 HD commoner?

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:48 PM
Lets see how you like roughly a 450 damage ray spell blasting at your face with no save...

He was referring to the stat stack warrior which is admittedly rather unimpressive. Incantatrix is obviously much more so (and well-known), but choosing Ray as a seed spell is just poor choice: Simple Ray Deflection makes it a non-issue. Some SR: No autohit spell with no save tends to be the gold standard, or something like Combust that just doesn't collapse to simple defenses (generally Magic Immunity and Ranged Touch Immunity are the two big ones to work around).

@Shneekey: Immune to fear, most likely. Also, most likely able to operate from a rather long range and thus never in range for Intimidation.

tyckspoon
2010-05-18, 06:49 PM
Lets see how you like roughly a 450 damage ray spell blasting at your face with no save...

Takahashi screams at you and you completely lose the ability to do anything. There are ways to prevent it- with 20 levels in full casting you can pre-empt Initiative or become immune to fear pretty easily- but if you don't do it you just lose.

Lateral
2010-05-18, 06:49 PM
Note, the OP is obsolete. Pun-Pun is now a level 1 Kobold Paladin. Kobold because...well, long story, and Paladin because Pazuzu grants them Wishes particularly readily. Sources needed: Core, Serpent Kingdoms, Fiendish Codex I.

Umm, could someone point me to a description of that lv1 pun-pun build? I'd like to see the mechanics of that.

edit:
Sure. Make DC 25 Knowledge: Religion check. Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. Poof, Pazuzu appears. Wish for LE Candle of Invocation, start Wish-chain, get Sarrukhhood and scalykindhood and ascend.
...sweet. How do you get a high enough bonus on religion checks to hit DC 25 with 4 ranks in it? How does the wish chain work? Are there actual rules for the Pazuzu thing? How come the Pazuzu thing only takes a DC 25 check?

...I think you'd be best off just linking me to it. :smallredface:

Edit: Ok, that's a little clearer, but how does a Candle of Invocation give you an infinite wish loop? I can see the binding of a Wish-granting creature working, but can Wish really do that kind of stuff?

Doc Roc
2010-05-18, 06:49 PM
A list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447) of some tricks.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-18, 06:49 PM
Was referring to OP, but how can you cast a ray when you are cowering like a 1/2 HD commoner?

Doesn't the Dread witch's class feature make it so you can delay fear effects? Or is this not a fear effect?

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:51 PM
Umm, could someone point me to a description of that lv1 pun-pun build? I'd like to see the mechanics of that.

Sure. Make DC 25 Knowledge: Religion check. Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. Poof, Pazuzu appears. Wish for LE Candle of Invocation, start Wish-chain, get Sarrukhhood and scalykindhood and ascend.

tyckspoon
2010-05-18, 06:52 PM
Umm, could someone point me to a description of that lv1 pun-pun build? I'd like to see the mechanics of that.

In short: Be a level 1 Paladin. Optimize your Know: Religion check so that you can (a) Know about Pazuzu and (b) know that he tends to grant no-strings attached Wishes to Paladins who sink low enough to call on him.

Recite the holy words "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu." Get him to Wish you up a Candle of Invocation (or Bind a Wish-granting creature on your behalf, whichever.) Use the Candle/Bound creature to attain infinite Wishes, initiate Pun-Pun ascension with said Wishes.

Kosjsjach
2010-05-18, 06:52 PM
Heck, I could take that build easy with Takahashi, even with a seven-level differential...

Basically Intimidation-version of Diplomacy. Use Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, plus the armor enhancement from the same source to let him Intimidate as a move action, then use a PrC to Take 10 on it, giving you a flat 46 DC level + wis mod + mods to fear effects check, or be Cowering. For everything in a 30' radius.

Scariest CW Samurai alive...

This build intrigues me, but I'm wondering how you're getting your Wis to Intimidate (among a few other things). Would you mind fleshing this out?

Eldariel
2010-05-18, 06:53 PM
This build intrigues me, but I'm wondering how you're getting your Wis to Intimidate (among a few other things). Would you mind fleshing this out?

It's the opposed roll, which contains Wisdom by default (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm).


A list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447) of some tricks.

This bears repeating. It's got a decent collection of some of the more obscure tricks along with some of the obvious ones. I don't think it covers the "Too-obvious/easy-for-Char-Ops-to-use", but those you can just figure out for yourself. May be worthwhile to mention LoP's dirty tricks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2287.0) here too.

Greenish
2010-05-18, 06:53 PM
Doesn't the Dread witch's class feature make it so you can delay fear effects? Or is this not a fear effect?I think the judges are still out on wether Intimidate is a fear effect or not.

[Edit]:
This build intrigues me, but I'm wondering how you're getting your Wis to Intimidate (among a few other things). Would you mind fleshing this out?It's to resist the Intimidate. Basically, you need to be able to get over 46 with 1d20+hitdice+wis mod(+fear resistance).

Doc Roc
2010-05-18, 07:12 PM
Note: The original build was from the Test of Spite, where we intentionally strengthen Intimidate by qualifying it as not MA.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 07:21 PM
Note: The original build was from the Test of Spite, where we intentionally strengthen Intimidate by qualifying it as not MA.

Fortunately, there's some wiggle room as to if Intimidate is mind-affecting or not, due to poorly worded SRD. Specifically...


Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Right, but Intimidate is none of those, and does not follow the Will Save. Also, unfortunately, it specifically lists fear ATTACKS as being mind-affecting. Intimidate isn't a fear attack...


A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

Again, no mention of immune to mind-affecting in there. In fact, since it explicitly states nonintelligent creatures may not be intimidated, which are inherently immune to mind-affecting, then it stands to reason that they would already be immune to intimidate, by virtue of being immune to mind-affecting, and thus not needing to be explicitly mentioned as an immunity. That they needed to be explicitly mentioned implies strongly that Intimidate is not a mind-affecting ability.

molten_dragon
2010-05-18, 07:50 PM
My favorite broken build.

Human Necropolitan Sorcerer 10/Tainted Sorcerer 10

Your bonus spells and spell save DCs are based upon your taint score (which you ignore the negative effects of due to being undead). Every time you cast a spell, you must make a fort save or gain another point of taint. Over a quite short period of time, you can rack up a truly ridiculous number of spells per day, with truly ridiculous spell save DCs. Load up on juicy save-or-die and save-or-suck spells and go to town.

balistafreak
2010-05-18, 09:17 PM
Your bonus spells and spell save DCs are based upon your taint score (which you ignore the negative effects of due to being undead).

I know that you're immune to the the physical negative effects of taint, but what about the mental ones?

Also, which Taint system are we talking about? Heroes of Horror or Unearthed Arcana?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-18, 10:33 PM
I know that you're immune to the the physical negative effects of taint, but what about the mental ones?

Also, which Taint system are we talking about? Heroes of Horror or Unearthed Arcana?

Undead are immune to all stat damage.


Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Prodan
2010-05-18, 11:22 PM
Cancer Mage from the Book of Vile Darkness, when combined with a disease found 22 pages before it called Hulk Syndrome Festering Anger.

JeminiZero
2010-05-19, 12:14 AM
Spellblade Tennis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109) never made it to any list of tricks.


Cancer Mage from the Book of Vile Darkness, when combined with a disease found 22 pages before it called Hulk Syndrome Festering Anger.

That particular trick works for anything that has immunity to Abilty Damage/Drain but not Immunity to Disease, such as the Voidmind Template.

Prodan
2010-05-19, 12:17 AM
I felt like cutting down on the amount of sourcebooks involved.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-19, 01:18 AM
I am someone who has been playing D&D for a few years now and have wanted my characters to be the best they can be. But in doing this their builds become what is considered 'Broken', or so close to it that it doesn't matter. So I'm posting this thread so that I can see what all of you have come up with in your playing of the game.

To summerize, I want people to post their favorite Overpowered/Broken Builds here, (1-20 all feats included, and if possible list your source books).

Whether it be a Wizard that basically never stops casting a powerhouse spell, to a Barbarian who carves through anything in his path, i want to see it.

And thanks to all who decide to post.

(If there is already a thread like this please post a redirect link in your post.)

One of my Favorites:

Half-Elf
1. Monk: (Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Fighting [Monk]), Iron Will
2. Monk: (Combat Reflexes [Monk])
3. Swashbuckler: (Weapon Finesse [Swashbuckler]), Great Fortitude
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Fighter: (Power Attack [Fighter]), Alertness
7. Fighter: (Weapon Focus – Great Sword [Fighter])
8. Fist of the Forest
9. Fist of the Forest: Dodge
10. Divine Champion
11. Divine Champion: (Combat Expertise [Divine Champion])
12. Shiba Protector: Toughness
13. Dragon Warrior
14. Dragon Warrior
15. Cleric: Mobility
16. Shadow Dancer
17. Shadow Dancer
18. Cleric: Improved Natural Attack
19. Cleric
20. Mystic Wanderer
Sources Used: Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Complete Warrior, Complete Champion, Oriental Adventures, Players Guide to Faerun, Magic of Faerun, and Dragon Magazine #298.

EDIT: *Sorry, Spring Attack was from a previous version of the Build, but this one doesn't need it, so it was replaced with Improved Natural Attack*


Ryu, since you're new here, I'll tell you something. Monk is considered a weak class on this forum, as is samurai and fighter. They're useful for dips, but that's it. (Personally I don't care, I like them anyway).
So if something like that is considered extremely overpowered in your group, I recommend against really reading any of the builds posted here.
Here's a link to Saph's Horizon Tripper. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) As a build, it's core only, and fairly flexible for a melee character. It really only needs a minimum of 6 levels of horizon walker (for shifting terrain), anything after that is just icing on the cake. And it leaves you with 7 levels to play around with for additional bonuses and goodies. Perhaps some crazy prestige or paragon class.

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-19, 01:50 AM
Psions with the Illithid Heritage feats can be very fun. You can pick up a few spells like Metamorphosis to deal with anything that can't be Dominated or just get everything in world that can be Dominated to kill the things that can't be Dominated.

Taking Leadership and grabbing something like a Hex Blade 4 / Paladin of Tyranny 4 just makes things fun. With this standard Save Debuffer, you basically give an opponent a negative 6 on all saves just by standing next to them. Such a Cohort would require you to be around level 10, which is enough time to get a +4 Intellect item. With overchannel and the Illithid Feats, you can reach a DC 26 on a Dominate that will basically hit anything and last 24 hours. With your Cohort, it is effectively a DC 32. That DC is high enough to make an Adult Black Dragon your slave unless he rolls a 20.

It's not as powerful as an Incantrix throwing out Orbs that incinerate half of the multiverse, but it is certainly no slouch.

Tytalus
2010-05-19, 04:51 AM
Another good one in my Opinion:


Human
1. Sorcerer Iron Will / Combat Casting
2. Sorcerer
3. Sorcerer Eschew Materials
4. Sorcerer
5. Sorcerer
6. Incantatar (Still Spell) Silent Spell
7. Incantatar
8. Incantatar
9. Incantatar ( Energy Substitution [Element of your choice]), Residual Magic
10. Incantatar
11. Incantatar
12. Incantatar (Energy Admixture [Element of your choice]), Weapon Focus [Ray]
13. Incantatar
14. Incantatar
15. Incantatar (Violate Spell [maybe]), Split Ray
16. War-Mage
17. War-Mage (Maximize Spell)
18. War-Mage Arcane Thesis (Ray Spell)
19. War-Mage (Empower Spell)
20. War-Mage
Sources Used: Player's Handbook, Player's Guide to Faerun, Complete Mage, Complete Arcane?(I forget), and Age of Mortals, Book of Vile Darkness.


That build isn't legal. You don't qualify for Incantatrix at the given level: you can neither cast 3rd level spells, nor do you have the required metamagic feat (and no, you can't select it on the level you take the class and still qualify).

Prodan
2010-05-19, 04:57 AM
Ryu, since you're new here, I'll tell you something. Monk is considered a weak class on this forum, as is samurai and fighter. They're useful for dips, but that's it. (Personally I don't care, I like them anyway).
No one's telling you to dislike them.

Heliomance
2010-05-19, 05:31 AM
Umm, could someone point me to a description of that lv1 pun-pun build? I'd like to see the mechanics of that.

edit:
...sweet. How do you get a high enough bonus on religion checks to hit DC 25 with 4 ranks in it? How does the wish chain work? Are there actual rules for the Pazuzu thing? How come the Pazuzu thing only takes a DC 25 check?

...I think you'd be best off just linking me to it. :smallredface:

Edit: Ok, that's a little clearer, but how does a Candle of Invocation give you an infinite wish loop? I can see the binding of a Wish-granting creature working, but can Wish really do that kind of stuff?

Use the Candle of Invocation to Gate in an Efreet. Order it to grant you three wishes.
Wishes 1 and 2, wish for whatever you like.
Wish 3: "I wish for a Candle of Invocation."
Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

balistafreak
2010-05-19, 08:29 AM
Undead are immune to all stat damage.

... well yes, but what about all those other scary side-effects? They're not explictly "damage", but thousands of little debuffs: like scabbed ears and curled feet, all of which carry some drawback. You're immune to the Constitution and Wisdom damage, but nowhere can I make it clear that you're immune to these Corruption effects due to passing your thresholds; not in the Tainted classes nor in the taint rules.

Well, wait a minute. That's using the Heroes of Horror system. The Unearthed Arcana doesn't use thresholds but only tracks the amount of damage taken... which you're invincible too. There's my answer. :smallsmile:

Although as an Undead, wouldn't it be impossible to raise your taint score in the first place? You automatically pass all Fortitude saves that don't affect objects. As far as I can tell, Taint doesn't affect objects, so you'll always pass your save to avoid being Tainted. :smallannoyed:

(You could just use the Will-save variant, though.)

Gnaeus
2010-05-19, 08:52 AM
Fortunately, there's some wiggle room as to if Intimidate is mind-affecting or not, due to poorly worded SRD. Specifically...


Hey! You're right! And the first round of drowning raises your hp to 0, even if they were lower than that before. Good luck making that kind of argument in a game.

Drakevarg
2010-05-19, 09:02 AM
any race, Necropolitan wizard/Tainted scholar.
Tainted Scholar is from heroes of horror and Wizard is core rules.

I've always wondered about this one. What's so great about Necropolitans? I keep hearing about them but looking at my copy of Libris Mortis they seem kinda useless.

Boci
2010-05-19, 09:03 AM
Hey! You're right! And the first round of drowning raises your hp to 0, even if they were lower than that before. Good luck making that kind of argument in a game.

Do you really think those two things are a valid comparison?


I've always wondered about this one. What's so great about Necropolitans? I keep hearing about them but looking at my copy of Libris Mortis they seem kinda useless.

Its the combination with the tainted scholar. They can base the DC of their saves off their taint score which is fine since if you're taint is too high you die. But undead are immune to the negative effects of taint.

Without tainted scholar, necropolitant is just an LA: 0 undead, which is useful, but nothing game breaking.

Flickerdart
2010-05-19, 09:13 AM
I felt like cutting down on the amount of sourcebooks involved.
The worst material is largely Core, so that doesn't really help.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 09:20 AM
I've always wondered about this one. What's so great about Necropolitans? I keep hearing about them but looking at my copy of Libris Mortis they seem kinda useless.

They're basically undead without Level Adjustment. That's about it. Being an Undead has quite a lot of perks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType).

9mm
2010-05-19, 09:36 AM
I'm fond of the Machine Factory and The Herd myself.

Gnaeus
2010-05-19, 09:46 AM
Do you really think those two things are a valid comparison?

Yes. They are both ludicrous arguments made to defend crazy interpretations of RAW in order to exploit a perceived loophole which an ounce of common sense would say doesn't exist. Frankly, from a RAW comparison, I think the drowning rule has the better case.

I honestly doubt that Schneeky would even make the argument, except that he has to win it in order for his Samurai build to be effective against a huge range of opponents. Maybe I'm wrong in that, and if so I apologize.

Doc Roc
2010-05-19, 11:59 AM
Yes. They are both ludicrous arguments made to defend crazy interpretations of RAW in order to exploit a perceived loophole which an ounce of common sense would say doesn't exist. Frankly, from a RAW comparison, I think the drowning rule has the better case.

I honestly doubt that Schneeky would even make the argument, except that he has to win it in order for his Samurai build to be effective against a huge range of opponents. Maybe I'm wrong in that, and if so I apologize.

Actually, the issue is that unlike the drowning argument, this one produces a better game instead of a crappier one. Intimidation is crucial to some of the better barbarian builds, and helps bring them quite close to being Tier 2.

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-19, 12:11 PM
I think what Gnaeus is getting at is that it doesn't make any sense that a vampire would be immune to the fourth level spell Fear but be susceptible to a commoner using nasty language. If nothing else, it violates the rule of "Magic is better than everything else." :smallwink:

Greenish
2010-05-19, 12:12 PM
Although as an Undead, wouldn't it be impossible to raise your taint score in the first place? You automatically pass all Fortitude saves that don't affect objects.You don't "automatically pass", you're flat out immune to such effects.

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-19, 12:54 PM
I think what Gnaeus is getting at is that it doesn't make any sense that a vampire would be immune to the fourth level spell Fear but be susceptible to a commoner using nasty language. If nothing else, it violates the rule of "Magic is better than everything else." :smallwink:

I... Disagree, actually. It does make sense for that to be the case. We know for a fact that something about the way intelligent undead work makes them oddly resistant to mental magic, but they're still people (sort of) and they still think. The spell is altering their thought process to make them scared when they have no logical reason to be; the intimidate roll is giving them a reason to be scared So, their nature makes them immune to magical or supernatural alteration of their mental state but leaves them completely unprotected from genuine emotional manipulation.

So, if we assume that Mind-Affecting means abilities which magically alter the target's mental state (which is strongly supported by the areas in which it tends to apply), Intimidate should, fluffwise, not be a mind-affecting ability. It seems that, for once, the argument that seems to be abusing a loophole actually makes more sense than the alternative.


On-topic, I've put together a couple of broken Pathfinder Sorceror builds since I started playing with that system.

The Wishamancer: This one's stupidly simple and requires almost no effort. Arcane Bloodline Sorceror 20 buys a Luck Blade. He can use his capstone ability to effectively turn all of his 3rd level and above slots into cost-free Wish spells, and he can count one second and one first level spell as a third level for this purpose. This gives a well-built Sorc over 60 Wishes per day, no cost. At this point, if you have even the slightest bit of intelligence you should be entirely unstoppable.

The Implacable Man: This build abuses the Destined bloodline's 16th level ability to ignore death with a successful DC20 Will save. It's trivially easy to get your Will modifier to +19 or better, so you only fail the save on a roll of Nat 1. You take your last four levels in Fatespinner (easy to qualify for) to get access to two rerolls per day, and Improved Iron Will for a third (still looking for methods to either pass saves on a 1 or increase this reroll pool). All of these can be used on the same roll, so odds of ever actually failing one are miniscule. You should also either become a Necropolitan or grab a continuous item of Death Ward for immunity to Death Effects, which bypass your death immunity. Ideally, you'll also want a source of Fast Healing 2+ as well. Congratulations. You are as close as it's possible to be as a (non-PunPun) PC to being completely immune to death.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-19, 01:01 PM
It doesn't look at all supported in RAW to me, but it (as explained earlier) seems like a reasonable houserule. The restriction on intimidating mindless creatures seems to shut down most ridiculousness.

taltamir
2010-05-19, 01:12 PM
Well:

- Illithid Savant anything: Qualify with Polymorph Any Object, rest...doesn't really matter; eat few brains, become infinitely powerful, etc.
- Beholder Mage anything: Qualify with Polymorph Any Object, 9 free action spells per turn is good, I hear, especially with spontaneous Wizard-casting.
- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: Not going there.
- Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace: No.
- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: NO!
- Planar Shepherd: NO!!!!
- Dweomerkeeper: NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
- Hulking Hurler: Yeah, no.

All of that...is just too easy and not really even funny. Actually, most of Forgotten Realms material belongs in there... Yeah, it's that bad (see the Incantatrix-line? All of that, except for SCM, is FR specific).


So...that's it for the easiest ones off the top of my head (misses a few but I did that in a hurry). Anything more specific you'd want to hear about, or any kind of limitation in power?

It would be great if people actually explained why or how things are broken. just naming builds doesn't help anyone who hasn't explicitly been aware of that build already. And if they were explicitly aware of that specific build already, then they don't need you to tell them about it since they already know.

so lets go over the list:
- Illithid Savant anything: Illithid savants gain powers by eating the brains of sentient beings. The thing is, you don't need to level, illithid savants are RAI pun pun light. They don't get infinite everything, but they get infinite quite a lot.
- Beholder Mage anything: 9 free action spells per turn
- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: I heard of this, but I don't recall the explanation as to why it is broken.
- Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace: Ur priests are awesome, but why is this specific build broken?
- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: Explaination please? I know incantantrix alone is broken because it gives you free metamagic reduction.
- Planar Shepherd: explanation? I remember the class name, I remember I knew why it was broken and have read its description in full, but I don't remember what it said anymore or what made it broken
- Dweomerkeeper: same with planar shepherd, I forgot.
- Hulking Hurler: What does that one do?

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 01:15 PM
Dweomerkeeper gets the ability to turn any spell he knows into a Su ability usable x/day, where I think x=3. Hello Wish with no XP cost. He get's this ability twice (at 4 and 10 IIRC).

And it is Incantrix's ability to apply metamagic to allies', or existing spells that really kills.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-19, 01:17 PM
Cancer Mage gets stupidly high Strength. Tainted Scholar gets stupidly high amounts of spell slots. Hulking Hurler deals massive damage, and in some cases (IIRC) can use the planet as an improvised weapon. Dweomerkeeper has Supernatural Spell, which allows them to ignore XP costs and the like. Planar Shepherd can create a bubble of flowing time that gives them a 10:1 action ratio or somesuch.

taltamir
2010-05-19, 01:20 PM
Dweomerkeeper gets the ability to turn any spell he knows into a Su ability usable x/day, where I think x=3. Hello Wish with no XP cost. He get's this ability twice (at 4 and 10 IIRC).

And it is Incantrix's ability to apply metamagic to allies', or existing spells that really kills.

oh right... incantantrix has... IIRC I remember saying that incantantrix gives you 3 or 4 separate completely broken abilities, each of which is broken and overpowered by itself.
Do you remember what the other broken abilities it gives are?


Cancer Mage gets stupidly high Strength. Tainted Scholar gets stupidly high amounts of spell slots. Hulking Hurler deals massive damage, and in some cases (IIRC) can use the planet as an improvised weapon. Dweomerkeeper has Supernatural Spell, which allows them to ignore XP costs and the like. Planar Shepherd can create a bubble of flowing time that gives them a 10:1 action ratio or somesuch.

thanks for the explanations... would be interesting to see those four classes fight against each other :P

Gauntlet
2010-05-19, 01:21 PM
Planar Shepherd lets you do all sorts of fun stuff, such as cast Summon Monster {#} for a Far Realm creature, then make a Far Realm bubble of Timeless fun (ie. you have as much time as you wish to throw delayed blast fireballs out and generally cause a V bad day for anyone you don't like).
Ur-priests get level 9 spells through a 10 level PrC and have all sorts of interesting things to go with it (not got CDiv with me, but that's the idea of it)
Shadowcraft Mages use Heightened Silent Image to duplicate any spell you want from most of the interesting schools, lots of times per day. I believe you can also get as low as a 5th or so level spell slot for 9th level spells and use your higher level stuff for Epic. It also lets you qualify for many feats and PrCs and so on early.
Cancer Mage/Tainted scholar means you take ability damage for some form of benefit or other, but are immune to ability damage. Hilarity ensues. I believe the Taint rules buff your spellcasting to enormous extents for no cost due to the aforementioned ability damage immunity.

dextercorvia
2010-05-19, 01:22 PM
Nope, those three (including the one you said) are the only ones I can remember. Also, it gets bonus metamagic feats, not broken, but come on...

UR-Priest and Apostle of Peace are both quick progression fullcasters. Ur- is OP on it's own, but crazy with dual progression PrC's.

Greenish
2010-05-19, 01:25 PM
- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: I heard of this, but I don't recall the explanation as to why it is broken.As far as I know, Tainted Scholar gets bonus spells and spell DC based on taint score. It also accumulates taint by casting spells. Become undead to be immune to negative effects of taint and rack it up to insane levels.

- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: Explaination please? I know incantantrix alone is broken because it gives you free metamagic reduction.I've already linked the shadowcraft mage handbook, but the gist of it is that SCM can make illusions more than 100% real. That is, the effect is worse if you succeed in disbelieving it. Also, casts a huge list of spells (arguably even Miracles) without material components or experience cost.

- Planar Shepherd: explanation?Planar Shepherd progresses druid's casting, animal companion and wildshape. If that's not enough, well, PS can wildshape into magical beasts and outsiders of his chosen plane, keeping all their SU and Spell-like abilities. And then they can bring bubbles of their chosen plane (with all the associated traits) to where they are. Some planes have time trait going ten times faster than it does on prime material.

- Hulking Hurler: What does that one do?Hulking Hurler is not a caster, surprisingly. It just picks up stuff and throws it at enemies, as per name. The thing is, how much they can throw is tied to their carrying capacity, which can be inflated to enormous levels, giving them enough d6s that they have to be marked with scientific notation. They can, with some effort, throw the moon at someone.

Swok
2010-05-19, 01:25 PM
- Dweomerkeeper: same with planar shepherd, I forgot.
- Hulking Hurler: What does that one do?

Dweomerkeeper gets metamagic reducers and can change spells into supernatural abilities.

Hulking Hurler gets massive strength and increases carrying capacity to throw a moon at people.

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-19, 01:27 PM
It would be great if people actually explained why or how things are broken. just naming builds doesn't help anyone who hasn't explicitly been aware of that build already. And if they were explicitly aware of that specific build already, then they don't need you to tell them about it since they already know.

so lets go over the list:
- Illithid Savant anything: Illithid savants gain powers by eating the brains of sentient beings. The thing is, you don't need to level, illithid savants are RAI pun pun light. They don't get infinite everything, but they get infinite quite a lot.
- Beholder Mage anything: 9 free action spells per turn
- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: I heard of this, but I don't recall the explanation as to why it is broken.
- Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace: Ur priests are awesome, but why is this specific build broken?
- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: Explaination please? I know incantantrix alone is broken because it gives you free metamagic reduction.
- Planar Shepherd: explanation? I remember the class name, I remember I knew why it was broken and have read its description in full, but I don't remember what it said anymore or what made it broken
- Dweomerkeeper: same with planar shepherd, I forgot.
- Hulking Hurler: What does that one do?

Let's see if I can't answer your questions.
Cancer Mage: Gets a disease that gives him +2 Str every day, stacking. Quickly gets his to-hit and damage output into the tens of thousands on each attack. Ouch.
Tainted Scholar: Infinite spells per day at arbitrarily high DCs.
Apostle of Peace: It's the Exalted version of Ur-priest. 9th level spells in a 10 level PrC. Not as good as Ur-Priest due to reqs, but still quite abusable.
Incantrix Etc: All of those are Arcane Caster PrCs that do rediculous things. Red Wizard, for example, can abuse the Leadership feat to cast buffs with durations measured in weeks at a Caster Level of "lolno".
Planar Shepard: Breaking the Action Economy, among other things. You can get yourself and all your buddies within X feet 10 actions to your opponent's 1. Also, Wildshape into Outsiders and the possibiility of an Efreet as an "animal" companion. Yeah.
Dwoemerkeeper: Turning your spells into SLAs allows you to ignore XP and material costs. This is what Dwoemerkeeper does. Another free Wish trick, in other words.
Hulking Hurler: Throw celestial bodies at your opponents (or vice versa) for several million d6 damage. At lower ends of optimization, you merely crush your foes (and their armies and cities) with mountains for several thousand d6 damage.
EDIT: Epically ninja'd. Next time, Gadget! Next time!

taltamir
2010-05-19, 01:41 PM
thanks for the info...

BTW, UR priest is 9th level spells (as cleric) in a 10 level PrC, but it actually gets access to its 9th level spells at 9th level in the PrC, the 10th level just gives more slots and caster level. Doesn't it also let you have very high caster level?

A thing about Ur Priest though is that it has some tough prerequisites, so, its only ahead by very little. It starts out behind, catches up towards the end, and gets 9th level casting at total level 15 rather then 17.

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-19, 01:47 PM
Generally speaking, neither Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace is (too) broken all on their own. You get less spells per day that a high-CL Cleric and none of the other benefits, so they aren't terribly abusable as, say, Ur-Priest 10. What they are abusable with is dual-progression PrCs. A Wiz5/UP2/MT8/Wiz5 is a very simple, otherwise uncheesed build with double 9s and virtually no downsides, and it gets far, far worse than that. A 2-level UP dip gets you some horrible, horrible options.

Arakune
2010-05-19, 01:51 PM
thanks for the info...

BTW, UR priest is 9th level spells (as cleric) in a 10 level PrC, but it actually gets access to its 9th level spells at 9th level in the PrC, the 10th level just gives more slots and caster level. Doesn't it also let you have very high caster level?

A thing about Ur Priest though is that it has some tough prerequisites, so, its only ahead by very little. It starts out behind, catches up towards the end, and gets 9th level casting at total level 15 rather then 17.

Well, it's one of the few ways to get triple 9s.

Maybe wizard/ardent/ur-priest/psichic theurge/mystic theurge/cerebremancer mix? That really get's a lot of mileage, even if you lack behind one level of spellcasting (trade one spell level to manifest powers AND use divine magic, and with early entry you can get all of then to 9th level at 20th or less? sign me in!)

Edit: Ninja! But mine is TRIPLE 9s :smallcool:

taltamir
2010-05-19, 01:51 PM
Generally speaking, neither Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace is (too) broken all on their own. You get less spells per day that a high-CL Cleric and none of the other benefits, so they aren't terribly abusable as, say, Ur-Priest 10. What they are abusable with is dual-progression PrCs. A Wiz5/UP2/MT8/Wiz5 is a very simple, otherwise uncheesed build with double 9s and virtually no downsides, and it gets far, far worse than that. A 2-level UP dip gets you some horrible, horrible options.

I can see how dual progression would be abusable as all heck here.
horrible in which way? can you please specify?

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 02:12 PM
- Illithid Savant anything: Illithid savants gain powers by eating the brains of sentient beings. The thing is, you don't need to level, illithid savants are RAI pun pun light. They don't get infinite everything, but they get infinite quite a lot.

It can do anything, pretty much. So yeah. It's kinda unhealthy.


- Beholder Mage anything: 9 free action spells per turn

And the best sides of Wizard and Sorcerer casting. And the ability to cast normal spells while at it.


- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: I heard of this, but I don't recall the explanation as to why it is broken.

They aren't together; I just listed them there 'cause of similar theme. Cancer Mage abuses diseases. Basically stack a bunch of Festering Angers for arbitrarily high strength, for example. You're immune to the negative effects, but stack +2 Strengths, for example.

Tainted Scholar...well, you use Taint as the basis of your casting. This means your casting stat is ~4 times as high as it should be for a normal character, or arbitrarily high for e.g. Undead (arguably). Either way, you can easily have a casting stat in the 100s on mid-levels. I needn't explain why that's busted.


- Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace: Ur priests are awesome, but why is this specific build broken?

They aren't broken together; just listing them here together 'cause they're broken for similar reasons. 9th level spells from good lists in 10 levels leads to silliness like 9th level spells in the early teens. So...fast progression casting without limiting prerequisites (like Sublime Chord) is pretty wrong.


- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: Explaination please? I know incantantrix alone is broken because it gives you free metamagic reduction.

That's just a bunch of Circle Magic-users (Red Wizard, Halruaan Elder, Hathran), Metamagic cheaters (Spelldancer, Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder), some silly spontaneous stuff and ability to break class casting limits (Hathran) and yeah. Shadowcraft Mage just ended up there for no other reason than its ability to spontaneously cast most spells in the game with Silent Image (regardless of Shadow Miracle; that's another can of worms entirely).

Circle Magic is bad 'cause it gives freeish metamagic and ability to reach ~CL 40 on level 10 or so. Rest should be obvious; free metamagic is bad and yeah. This category should really omit Shadowcraft Mage and be called "Forgotten Realms" since all of this crap is Forgotten Realms-specific except for Shadowcraft Mage.


- Planar Shepherd: explanation? I remember the class name, I remember I knew why it was broken and have read its description in full, but I don't remember what it said anymore or what made it broken

Planar Bubble from the plane he's "Shepherding": Comes complete with Time Trait; effectively an SLA Super Time Stop on early levels a couple of times per day.

Also, Wildshape into outsiders complete with spell-likes (and Sus), and some Magical Beast stuff. But I needn't explain to you why hour/level Shapechange++++++++ (free Wishes, much? Or any spell in the game for that matter) without HD cap is bad.


- Dweomerkeeper: same with planar shepherd, I forgot.

Metamagic cheats, ability to break some spell list boundaries (that's more dangerous than you'd think) and most importantly, Supernatural Spell. That makes it uncounterable, undispellable, free (no XP/GP costs), etc. So yeah, I'm using Wish and there's nothing you can do about it. Have a nice...well, inexistence.


- Hulking Hurler: What does that one do?

It simply throws your Carrying Capacity at things. The damage scaling of Xd6 based on weight makes this pretty ugly when you get to the upper billions in carrying capacity (basically, Carrying Capacity grows exponentially while the damage growth is linear leading to some truly dumb numbers).

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 02:26 PM
oh right... incantantrix has... IIRC I remember saying that incantantrix gives you 3 or 4 separate completely broken abilities, each of which is broken and overpowered by itself.
Do you remember what the other broken abilities it gives are?

Mostly:
1) Metamagic Effect: Apply Metamagic to spell effect with a Spellcraft check. Means you can Persist Int+3 spells per day. Also has offensive uses like displacing (protective) Anti-Magic Fields and such.
2) Cooperative Metamagic: Apply Metamagic to a spell cast by an ally with a Spellcraft Check. As above, except this time you may need to use e.g. Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability or similar for this if a lone wolf, or another caster (Leadership/Planar Binding/Simulacrum; there are means to get those). Again, Int+3 per day.
3) Improved Metamagic: Yeah, epic feat on level 15. All your metamagics (of which you have at least 5, btw) take slots of 1 level lower than normal to minimum of +1. Happy birthday.

That's it for the broken. Then there's:
- 4 bonus metamagic feats (very useful when your class is based on metamagic, and 'cause good feats tend to be among the best things in the game; with all else you get, this is borderline busted as it saves your other feat slots)
- Instant Metamagic: Apply metamagic for free to a spell with no checks or such. Errata caps this at your maximum spell level, making it remotely fair. And it's only 2/day even in the end (not ~15+ per day like the Metamagic X Spellcraft abilities...)
- Metamagic Spell Trigger: This is the Artificer's ability to superpump Wands for epic damage. Expensive, but efficient. Not broken, alone at any rate. An artificer or a good crafter in general makes it a bit wrong though.
- Seize Concentration/Snatch Spell: Allows you to steal spell effects' control. Nothing major, very useful when it matters though. Again, just checks, though this time Caster Level checks.

Notice how even without the 3 "busted" abilities, it'd still be a good class (though kinda under average Wizard PrC due to Focused Studies)? Yeah, it's that ridiculous. And Metamagic Spell Trigger is pretty hard to get for a Wizard so it can be worth it for that alone.

Oslecamo
2010-05-19, 02:30 PM
And the best sides of Wizard and Sorcerer casting. And the ability to cast normal spells while at it.


Notice however that a beholder with all 10 levels of beholder mage will be lv23, in wich case he has to contest with epic stuff.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 02:36 PM
Notice however that a beholder with all 10 levels of beholder mage will be lv23, in wich case he has to contest with epic stuff.

Which is why you abuse Polymorph Any Object and qualify as a Human, of course. PAO is suggested to ignore HD limits. But even if that's not the case, you can just have your HD Level Drained away and start taking Beholder Mage from level 2 again.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 02:43 PM
Most of those are broken individually, there's no real combination to a lot of them besides Broken +Broken = Broken x2.

- Cancer Mage/Tainted Scholar: I heard of this, but I don't recall the explanation as to why it is broken.

Cancer Mage ignores the negative effects of diseases. A disease exists called Festering Anger is a disease that deals Constitution damage each day, but gives the sufferer a stacking bonus to Strength. Cancer Mages suffer no ill effects of diseases aside from cosmetic damage. Thus, a Cancer Mage who infects himself with Festering Anger gets +2 Strength every day for perpetuity - if also immortal, such as an Elan, infinite strength.

I'm not sure how Tainted Scholar makes it more broken though, unless Taint is considered a disease. If it is, there's your answer.



- Ur-Priest/Apostle of Peace: Ur priests are awesome, but why is this specific build broken?

This is actually impossible as written, so it's probably that they are both broken individually - getting 9th level spells earlier than expected breaks the game.



- Incantatrix/Spelldancer/Halruaan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage: Explaination please? I know incantantrix alone is broken because it gives you free metamagic reduction.

They're all variants of the same reason for brokenness - free metamagic, especially free Persistent Spell, is borked. Shadowcraft Mage is slightly different, in that it (according to one intepretation) grants unlimited XP-free Miracles.



- Planar Shepherd: explanation? I remember the class name, I remember I knew why it was broken and have read its description in full, but I don't remember what it said anymore or what made it broken

Pick Elemental Plane of Fire: Wildshape into Efreeti, grant free wishes to everyone.
Pick any plane with a Fast-Time Trait: Generate a radius effect that grants you and all your allies inside it 10 actions for every action the opponents take. You don't break the action economy, you feed it through a meat grinder.
Pick [Plane of Choice]: You're probably wildshaping into something that shouldn't be wildshaped into.



Supernatural Spell. Supernatural abilities ignore spell resistance, the only defense most things have against no-save, just-lose abilities. Also, no component cost, so Hey! More free Miracles, and completely legit this time.

[quote]
- Hulking Hurler: What does that one do?

Throws unreasonably large objects at people using the damage-by-weight charts in Complete Warrior.



EDIT:Argh, ninjaed to the nth degree.

2xMachina
2010-05-19, 02:45 PM
Venerable Loredrake Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn (variant?) Kobold with Greater Draconic Ritual

Buy off 1LA for +4 Sorc lvl.

Dip Sandshaper for more spells known (-1CL). Maybe Arcane Preparation for MotAO

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-19, 02:48 PM
I say wizard 5.

No, really.

With a 5th-level wizard, I can deal Xd6 force damage (with X being arbitrarily high numbers of thousands, Reflex save for half) using a book full of explosive runes and an area dispel. In a 10' radius, no less. The guy at the epicenter of the explosion? No saves.

Infinite wishes and armies of epic creatures, no XP cost. A scroll of planar binding and some careful prep-work is all that's needed. Bind an efreeti, trap it in a magic circle against evil with a curtain around it, in a room covered in large, easy-to-read explosive runes, and torture it with debuffs and other cruelties until it fails its Charisma check (and buff yours up until you overpower it handily - not hard). Wish for simulacrums of more efreet, subservient to you, then start wishing for more simulacrums for more wishes. You can upgrade to solars at any time you like, then on to epic level monstrosities, as you wish.

Both are core-only, and pretty easy.

There's more, but should I really bother at this point?

Greenish
2010-05-19, 02:49 PM
Venerable Loredrake Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn (variant?) Kobold with Greater Draconic RitualDesert Kobold for penalty to Wis (so you only get +1 Wis, oh woe!) instead of Con. Loredrake is a can of worms though.


Also, I feel it should be pointed out that the brokenness of Shadowcraft Mage (aka Killer Gnome) doesn't rest solely on Shadow Miracles: they're bloody powerful even without.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 02:51 PM
Also, I feel it should be pointed out that the brokenness of Shadowcraft Mage (aka Killer Gnome) doesn't rest solely on Shadow Miracles: they're bloody powerful even without.


Shadowcraft Mage just ended up there for no other reason than its ability to spontaneously cast most spells in the game with Silent Image (regardless of Shadow Miracle; that's another can of worms entirely).

Got you beat.

Oslecamo
2010-05-19, 02:51 PM
Which is why you abuse Polymorph Any Object and qualify as a Human, of course. PAO is suggested to ignore HD limits. But even if that's not the case, you can just have your HD Level Drained away and start taking Beholder Mage from level 2 again.

Well last time I checked being level drained doesn't decrease your CR, otherwise the DM can play that game too. And since beholders don't have official LA then you can't play one out of the bat either and use that trick.

And PaO, well, that's dependant on the DM agreeing that a temporary buff is enough to qualify you for a racial Prc.

Lycanthromancer:Simulacrum doesn't work because an efreeti simulacrum because by Savage species an half HD efreeti can't use wish at all.

Also the explosive runes bomb demands a large setup time and you automaticaly suceed at dispelling your own spells, so good luck pulling it at lv5 when you've got what, 1 3rd level per day? Two?

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 02:53 PM
Well last time I checked being level drained doesn't decrease your CR, otherwise the DM can play that game too. And since beholders don't have official LA then you can't play one out of the bat either and use that trick.

And PaO, well, that's dependant on the DM agreeing that a temporary buff is enough to qualify you for a racial Prc.

Well, by RAW it works (as long as you qualify for X, you keep X and can keep X until you stop qualifying for X). Obviously no sane DM is going to allow Beholder Mage PCs anywhere near his game, but that's hardly at the point here; if asking for "broken", it's pretty high up there.

Greenish
2010-05-19, 02:53 PM
Got you beat.So you did. I take solace in the fact that I beat you to Planar Shepherd. :smallamused:

Oslecamo
2010-05-19, 02:57 PM
Well, by RAW it works (as long as you qualify for X, you keep X and can keep X until you stop qualifying for X). Obviously no sane DM is going to allow Beholder Mage PCs anywhere near his game, but that's hardly at the point here; if asking for "broken", it's pretty high up there.

You would still need to be level 15 to cast Pao, so you're delaying yourself from geting 9th level spells tough. You will only get them lv25.

taltamir
2010-05-19, 03:00 PM
Supernatural Spell. Supernatural abilities ignore spell resistance, the only defense most things have against no-save, just-lose abilities. Also, no component cost, so Hey! More free Miracles, and completely legit this time.
I thought Su ignored XP/GP costs, V,S,M components, and ASF (because no S); and MAYBE also no AoO...
but I wasn't aware they ignored spell resistance...

The Glyphstone
2010-05-19, 03:02 PM
From the source:


Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

taltamir
2010-05-19, 03:04 PM
From the source:

wow! that is a rule I never noticed... and didn't play by. This makes Su abilities EVEN NICER.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 03:09 PM
You would still need to be level 15 to cast Pao, so you're delaying yourself from geting 9th level spells tough. You will only get them lv25.

Scrolls are available by WBL on level 4-5. Given you only need two castings, you should be fine.

Doc Roc
2010-05-19, 03:17 PM
Well, by RAW it works (as long as you qualify for X, you keep X and can keep X until you stop qualifying for X). Obviously no sane DM is going to allow Beholder Mage PCs anywhere near his game, but that's hardly at the point here; if asking for "broken", it's pretty high up there.

Seconded on all points. Any sane GM is going to ban anything approximating polymorph.


Scrolls are available by WBL on level 4-5. Given you only need two castings, you should be fine.

Other approaches can get you there even more reliably. There's an artificer build running around that provides consistent entry at ECL 4th. Then there's the resto-rebuild or retraining options. After all, you qual once you are a beholder. In theory, I could probably lay out... Hum.... I think I will. Congrats, Os, you've provided the seed for a terrible victory. I am happy to inform you that it does appear potentially legal to use buffering HD gained by inspire greatness in conjunction with the resto rebuild to become a straight Beholder Mage 10, achieving 9th level spells by level 8 with versatile spellcaster. I could do better, but why bother?

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 03:20 PM
Other approaches can get you there even more reliably. There's an artificer build running around that provides consistent entry at ECL 4th. Then there's the resto-rebuild or retraining options. After all, you qual once you are a beholder.

Mmm, yeah, I was just going by the simplest way. After all, it's busted enough that you don't really need to do any more than that (though that doesn't stop TO boards, of course).

Doc Roc
2010-05-19, 03:26 PM
Mmm, yeah, I was just going by the simplest way. After all, it's busted enough that you don't really need to do any more than that (though that doesn't stop TO boards, of course).

I brought you a thing.
Necropolitan Human -> Beholder
Beholder Mage 3/ War Weaver 5/ Incantatrix 3/ Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 7.

I challenge anyone to top that with a non-infinite build.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-19, 03:55 PM
No one's telling you to dislike them.

Oh I know. But I usually give that warning to newbies to the forum. It stops them from getting into arguments with the more contentious veterans, which generally ends in the new guy not returning to this section of the forum. I also made the personal statement to try and assert that I am not attacking someone who uses those classes.

Oslecamo
2010-05-19, 03:58 PM
Scrolls are available by WBL on level 4-5. Given you only need two castings, you should be fine.

To be honest, if the players are picking PaO scrolls at lv4-5, it's broken already. It's not the prc that's broken but the spell itself.

Altough I guess it gets you points breaking the game with style.:smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 03:59 PM
I brought you a thing.
Necropolitan Human -> Beholder
Beholder Mage 3/ War Weaver 5/ Incantatrix 3/ Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 7.

I challenge anyone to top that with a non-infinite build.

I think you want Dweomerkeeper in there after Incantatrix 3. Supernatural Spell adds another dimension of fun to it. And as Beholder Mage's standard casting caps at 10, couldn't you just get 10 levels of e.g. Ur-Priest casting too without losing much? The levels are tight, but it could be interesting. That said...yeah. Ouch. I saw Action Economy come whimpering this way. Says you did something inappropriate to it.

Flickerdart
2010-05-19, 04:01 PM
Generally speaking, neither Ur-Priest or Apostle of Peace is (too) broken all on their own. You get less spells per day that a high-CL Cleric and none of the other benefits, so they aren't terribly abusable as, say, Ur-Priest 10. What they are abusable with is dual-progression PrCs. A Wiz5/UP2/MT8/Wiz5 is a very simple, otherwise uncheesed build with double 9s and virtually no downsides, and it gets far, far worse than that. A 2-level UP dip gets you some horrible, horrible options.
That build is illegal, as a Wizard has to be 9th level before he qualifies for Ur-Priest due to the Fortitude save requirement. Wiz 9/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Wiz 1 qualifies, however, and gets you just as far.

You can also stack Sublime Chord into the mix if you're going triple nines, even though it's a pain to qualify for.


Well, it's one of the few ways to get triple 9s.

Maybe wizard/ardent/ur-priest/psichic theurge/mystic theurge/cerebremancer mix? That really get's a lot of mileage, even if you lack behind one level of spellcasting (trade one spell level to manifest powers AND use divine magic, and with early entry you can get all of then to 9th level at 20th or less? sign me in!)

Edit: Ninja! But mine is TRIPLE 9s :smallcool:
That doesn't actually work, because you never have enough levels as far as I can tell. You need 9 levels on the Ur-Priest/MT for Divine 9, 1 Wizard level (with Sanctum Spell) and 1 Ardent level (with Practiced Manifester and Extra Power) plus a way to get those skill requirements under control (including 6 ranks of Bluff), Spell Focus Evil, and 9 levels of Cerebremancer (making your ML 3 points short and requiring you to Overchannel all the time). This is already 20 levels and your Wizard casting is 1 (Wizard) +7 (Mystic Theurge) +9 (Cerebremancer), or in other words just enough for 9th level spells. But you also have to take all these things at the right time. Which you most likely cannot do because save, skill and feat requirements will mean you can't actually take levels in the PrC you want at 3rd level (Cerebremancer needs 2nd level powers that you can't have yet, Mystic Theurge needs divine casting that you don't have yet, Psychic Theurge needs both, and all three need 6 points in a skill).

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-19, 04:04 PM
To be honest, if the players are picking PaO scrolls at lv4-5, it's broken already. It's not the prc that's broken but the spell itself.

Altough I guess it gets you points breaking the game with style.:smalltongue:Ah, but the ability to use scrolls above your level is granted by the casting class.

It adds to the equation even for lowly 1st level wizards.

taltamir
2010-05-19, 04:17 PM
Other approaches can get you there even more reliably. There's an artificer build running around that provides consistent entry at ECL 4th. Then there's the resto-rebuild or retraining options. After all, you qual once you are a beholder. In theory, I could probably lay out... Hum.... I think I will. Congrats, Os, you've provided the seed for a terrible victory. I am happy to inform you that it does appear potentially legal to use buffering HD gained by inspire greatness in conjunction with the resto rebuild to become a straight Beholder Mage 10, achieving 9th level spells by level 8 with versatile spellcaster. I could do better, but why bother?

can we see the build? it sounds awesome

Doc Roc
2010-05-19, 04:19 PM
Necropolitan Human -> Beholder
Beholder Mage 3/Hathran 2/ Incantatrix 3/ Tainted Scholar 1/Ur Priest 2/ Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4, progressing Ur-Priest/Malconvoker 4

I challenge anyone to top that with a non-infinite build.

Edited wrt eld's suggestions. Double 9s, dweomerkeeper, tainted scholar, magic domain, DMM, and malconvoker. Have fun, kids.

taltamir
2010-05-19, 04:21 PM
Edited wrt eld's suggestions. Double 9s, dweomerkeeper, tainted scholar, magic domain, DMM, and malconvoker. Have fun, kids.

thanks, can you specify the tricks you use and when (aka, HD boosts, etc)

Doc Roc
2010-05-19, 04:33 PM
Here is a list... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137447)
Of those, I am using mostly the Restoration Shuffle, PaO, and Inspire Greatness.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 05:27 PM
Edited wrt eld's suggestions. Double 9s, dweomerkeeper, tainted scholar, magic domain, DMM, and malconvoker. Have fun, kids.

Now, I know it's bad form to use bad Youtube trope links to drive a point home, but I'm going to, anyways: This is delicious! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvgNr41kLAk&feature=related)

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-19, 06:29 PM
Now, I know it's bad form to use bad Youtube trope links to drive a point home, but I'm going to, anyways: This is delicious! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvgNr41kLAk&feature=related)And I match your bad form with a non-sequitur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Wd-Q3F8KM)!

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-19, 06:46 PM
The Implacable Man:
[...]
(still looking for methods to either pass saves on a 1 or increase this reroll pool).

Since you're using non-Pathfinder sources already, take a dip in cleric, choosing Luck and Pride for your domains. Luck gives you 1 reroll per day, and Pride lets you reroll all 1s on saves.

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-19, 06:57 PM
Since you're using non-Pathfinder sources already, take a dip in cleric, choosing Luck and Pride for your domains. Luck gives you 1 reroll per day, and Pride lets you reroll all 1s on saves.

In my circles of the world, we allow any non-Pathfinder material not already redone by Pathfinder. So, Duskblade is okay (slightly Pathfinderized with a bigger HD), but 3.5 Cleric is not. I always thought that that was the most reasonable way to do it. Similarly, the Luck domain has been modified such that I wouldn't get the reroll until 6, though I wonder if there's any non-cleric method of getting the Pride domain (which hasn't been redone). Reroll all 1s would be obscenely effective, multiplying the build's already overdone survivability by 20. I'll look into it. Thanks.

balistafreak
2010-05-19, 07:02 PM
You don't "automatically pass", you're flat out immune to such effects.

Which leads me back to my original question:

An undead Tainted Scholar supposedly can get a Taint score of a hojillion and thus have infinite DCs and bonus spells.

But as an undead, you apparently can't gain Taint, because you're immune to the method through which is gained: a Fortitude save.

So how does this Tainted Scholar ever accomplish anything? You can't ever get a Taint score! :smallconfused:

Someone please explain how this works; I think I shall go quite mad. How ironic. :smalltongue:

Olo Demonsbane
2010-05-19, 07:50 PM
I got linked to...I feel honored :smalltongue:

Wizard 1/Ur Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Mage 9 is a nice and simple one...gets you double 9s and an 8.


Take a look at a Savage Species Monster Class Ghaele Eladrin 6. 5 Outsider HD, 6 levels of Cleric casting. Already equal to a standard cleric (no DMM or domains hurts a bit). Now look at the spell-like abilities you get. Chain Lightning? Charm Monster? Wall of Force? Finally, you are getting ability boosts at every level along with lots of cool and random abilities.

Beguiler 1/Rainbow Savant 10/Sacred Exorcist 9
Nice, simple, and casts every single cleric spell spontaneously.

Cleric 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Dweomerkeeper 10/Incantatrix 8
Needs very little explanation. However, Persisted Supernatural Delay Death+Persisted Supernatural Favor of the Martyr.

Just a few builds that I've been mulling over.

Greenish
2010-05-19, 07:56 PM
Beguiler 1/Rainbow Savant 10/Sacred Exorcist 9
Nice, simple, and casts every single cleric spell spontaneously.Isn't it Rainbow Servant?

Heliomance
2010-05-19, 08:03 PM
How on earth are you qualifying for Rainbow Servant at level 2?

Milskidasith
2010-05-19, 08:05 PM
Isn't it Rainbow Servant?

Yeah, rainbow savant is what making skittles apparantly does. Feel the rainbow, taste the rainbow, respect the rainbow... actually, that's more rainbow synesthesist

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 08:05 PM
How on earth are you qualifying for Rainbow Servant at level 2?

Dragonsblood Pool + Sanctum Spell.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-05-19, 08:12 PM
I got linked to...I feel honored :smalltongue:

Wizard 1/Ur Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Mage 9 is a nice and simple one...gets you double 9s and an 8.

How do you qualify for Sublime Chord with no Bardic Music?

Anyhow, a build I'm considering is

Changeling Bard 7/Recaster 2 (Races of Eberron)/Exalted Arcanist (BoED) 1/Sublime Chord 2/Exalted Arcanist 4/Recaster 3/ ??? 1

Recaster is a changeling only prestige class that gives free metamagic, free sculpt-spell, and free Silent or Still each 5/day. Exalted Arcanist gives Bonus Exalted Feats (Words of Creation and Nymph's Kiss) and adds every Sanctified spell to your spells known.

The best part is those first levels of Recaster and Exalted Arcanist don't advance your spellcasting. Best to get them out of the way BEFORE you go into Sublime Chord.

It's not QUITE broken, but still a good spontaneous caster with some nice Bardic Music abilities and skill points.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 08:16 PM
How do you qualify for Sublime Chord with no Bardic Music?

There's a few ways, most involving shapechanging or bodyswitching (á la True Mindswitch).

Flickerdart
2010-05-19, 08:37 PM
I'm starting to think that when a character uses service resources way above their level (oh sure I'm level 1 but I can use a scroll of Apocalypse From the Sky to win) then it shouldn't really count.

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-19, 08:40 PM
I got linked to...I feel honored :smalltongue:

Wizard 1/Ur Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Mage 9 is a nice and simple one...gets you double 9s and an 8.

Cleric 1/Prestige Paladin 1/Dweomerkeeper 10/Incantatrix 8
Needs very little explanation. However, Persisted Supernatural Delay Death+Persisted Supernatural Favor of the Martyr.

Just a few builds that I've been mulling over.

I don't see how you could possibly qualify for Ur Priest at 2nd level, or Dwoemerkeeper at 3. IIRC, Prestige Paladin also requires save and skill mods you cannot possibly posess. I'm also unaware of a method of getting 2nd level spells with only a single UP level (for MT). Do you mind telling me how you did these?

Greenish
2010-05-19, 08:44 PM
I'm starting to think that when a character uses service resources way above their level (oh sure I'm level 1 but I can use a scroll of Apocalypse From the Sky to win) then it shouldn't really count.Level 5 character can afford three scrolls of PaO. (And, admittedly, nothing else.)

Boci
2010-05-19, 09:18 PM
Level 5 character can afford three scrolls of PaO. (And, admittedly, nothing else.)

Theres a reason mercentile background is usually banned. And if you're in TO territory, you can always just be lazy and chant that name three times.

2xMachina
2010-05-20, 02:38 AM
Which leads me back to my original question:

An undead Tainted Scholar supposedly can get a Taint score of a hojillion and thus have infinite DCs and bonus spells.

But as an undead, you apparently can't gain Taint, because you're immune to the method through which is gained: a Fortitude save.

So how does this Tainted Scholar ever accomplish anything? You can't ever get a Taint score! :smallconfused:

Someone please explain how this works; I think I shall go quite mad. How ironic. :smalltongue:

2 types of taint. Depravity is Will save.

Tainted Scholar: When casting spells, Will save or Taint (Depravity) +1.
Undead: Automatically gets Taint = 1/2 Cha +1 and doesn't suffer the negative effects. Positive effects are good to go though.

EDIT:

OK, another broken build

Custom plane Planar Shepperd.

Get your party wizard to genesis a private demi-plane. Custom build it as you want.

Subjective Directional Gravity? You got it. Free fly speed to party.
Fast flowing time? 1000:1? You got it.
Divinely Morphic? You got it. Set the specific individuals to be the planes creator/friends. Viola, you now can change anything in your planar bubble.
Positive Dominant? You got it. Fast healing. Also explodes your enemies if they get in.
Enhanced Magic plane? You got it. Free metamagic for everyone. No spell slot level increase, no casting time increase, no metamagic feat needed.

Add those to the Dream plane and you've got access to all creatures. Also, spell slots used in there come back. And if you 'die', you wake up.

You can now throw 1000 Heightened Empowered Maximized Twin Repeating ........ (insert any metamagic you like), in 1 round. So can your party wizard.

EDIT:

Ok, another.

Ur-Priest 10.
Hello Efreet. I can use your SLA Wish too. Don't worry, I didn't steal it from you. You want to test? Sure. I'll tell you 2 of my wishes, and you tell me your wish. If we're agreed, you grant me 2 wishes, and I'll use the 3rd for you.

Ur-priest 10, when they say 'stealing', they meant copy.