True Necromancer...is there a way to get 9ths in both classes with it?

[Maho-Tsukai]

The True Necromancer class is so flavorful and cool on paper yet every time I calculate CL with it it never goes past 16th level casting...which is not good. Thus I have a question for you all...is there any special ways or tricks to get 9th level spells on a TN?

[The Cat Goddess]

With Early Entry into Mystic Theurge first, perhaps?

[Flickerdart]

IIRC, no. You lose 4 caster levels from both classes. True Necromancer is so terrible that even a Mystic Theurge is better. If you want undead, the Dread Necromancer handles that much better, both in flavour and usefulness.

[Divide by Zero]

IIRC, no. You lose 4 caster levels from both classes. True Necromancer is so terrible that even a Mystic Theurge is better. If you want undead, the Dread Necromancer handles that much better, both in flavour and usefulness.

5 without early-entry tricks. 3 of each for the requirements, and another 2 of each over the levels. Even Mystic Theurge is a better necromancer, because your rebuking is going to suck anyway.

[Optimystik]

The True Necromancer class is so flavorful and cool on paper yet every time I calculate CL with it it never goes past 16th level casting...which is not good. Thus I have a question for you all...is there any special ways or tricks to get 9th level spells on a TN?

Ur-Priest
Bloodlines

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, a DN is usually better but DNs generally are better for that kind of thing but are not really "necromancers " until level 8 unless you are able to put at least a 13 into wisdom to gain animate dead at as a level 3 via Arcane Disciple. Clerics actually make better necromancers then a DN dose pre-level 8 when the DN is just a gish with mostly necromancy spells. You COULD always use fell animate and rebuke to be a psudo-necro until level 8, I suppose..but Arcane disciple usually works better even though putting points into wisdom is a pain.

OA sorcerers using third party material can make great necromancers provided you can learn enough Maho spells/your DM is friendly with Maho scrolls. Though Maho was more meant to be a shugenja class, sorceres are better for it since they can basically learn however many Maho spells they want.(They just have to exchange one of their known spells for a Maho spell they learned..so a sorcerer would not gain more spells known but would rather lose one spell known and have it replaced with the Maho spell.

And yes, I know true necromancer sucks, I just wanted there to be a way where I could be a necromancer and not have to be a cleric for once and avoid having to be a gish until level 8.

[pinwiz]

Yeah, a DN is usually better but DNs generally are better for that kind of thing but are not really "necromancers " until level 8 unless you are able to put at least a 13 into wisdom to gain animate dead at as a level 3 via Arcane Disciple. Clerics actually make better necromancers then a DN dose pre-level 8 when the DN is just a gish with mostly necromancy spells.

Really? I always thought DN was way better at undead, because of all the feats and abilities they get. free healing for my undead? yes please. undead mastery? yes please. And good necromancy spells. I find they aren't super great until you start amassing undead.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yes, they are real necromancers. In fact, once they hit level 8 they are BETTER at it then clerics..but until level 8 where you get animate dead and undead mastery your basically a melee fighter/gish character who takes tomb tainted soul and constantly heals himself with his own touch. Yes, they are real necromancers. In fact, once they hit level 8 they are BETTER at it then clerics..but until level 8 where you get animate dead and undead mastery your basically a melee fighter/gish character who takes tomb tainted soul and constantly heals himself with his own touch and casts a few spells. The real necromancer dose not began until level 8 when you can actually animate the undead. Clerics get undead animation as a level 3 spell, you do not. At lower levels, a cleric is a better necro then you.

At higher levels, you are better then them but before then the cleric has you utterly beaten in the necromancy department. The only way to actually be even with a cleric at lower levels is to take arcane disciple and name the Undeath domain. It gives you animate dead as a level 3 and desecrate as a level 2. You need wis for arcane disciple, though, which is a drawback since wis is usually a dumb stat for a DN. However, the most wis you need is 13, because every spell after animate dead at level 3 you get on your spell list and you don't have to worry about DCs for your arcane disciple spells because desecrate and animate dead don't have saves. The level 1 spell will have a horrid DC, though, but chances are you will never have to use it anyway.

[Optimystik]

Dread Necros have some "wtf" built into their class though. Planar Binding with no Magic Circle? No Desecrate? Why, WotC??

[Maho-Tsukai]

I know, frankly I prefer OA/D20 Rokugan's attempts at necromancy, if you did not already guess that by my name. In D20 Rokugan Shugenjas and sorcerers can learn Maho spells and exchange spells known for maho spells they learned. You can get a lot of nice necromancy spells that way such as level 3 animate dead and desecrate as a level 2. The catch? You have to pass a knowledge(shadowlands) check to learn them. You could always use that feat that I forget the name of which allows you to gain some knowledge skills so you can make a sorc have Knowledge(shadowlands) as a class skill. Shugenjas need not worry since they get all knowledge skills as class skills like a wizard but unfortunately Shugenjas can only learn Maho spells as off element which means they can only have a very limited number until they take the Maho-Tsukai PrC.

[Claudius Maximus]

With something like Wizard/Cleric, I'm afraid the best I can manage with reasonable early entry is 17/16. I can get double 9's at 17/17, but it'd be pretty ridiculous and wouldn't be accepted in almost any game. This assumes you're taking 14 levels in TN.

You can get double 9's pretty easily with Ur-Priest, but I'm having difficulty figuring out a way to do it that involves all 14 levels of TN.

[Maho-Tsukai]

How would you get 17/17 out of TN? I thought at certain levels it only levels up one class and thus you really don't get 14 levels of dual caster progression but rather 10 levels of dual caster progression and 2 of just arcane and 2 of just divine, or has the class gotten an errata/been changed somehow? The reason I ask is because I have a copy of Libris Mortis and the TN in that book gets dual caster progression for 10 out of 14 levels, not the full 14.

[Claudius Maximus]

The build is basically Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4/True Necromancer 14. You use shenanigans to qualify for Mystic Theurge.

The more reasonable 17/16 build is Wizard 1/Cleric 2/MT 3/TN 14. You can swap the second Cleric level for another of Wizard, if you'd rather favor arcane.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also, what shenanigans can you use to get into mystic theurge at level 2? I thought by RAW you had to be able to cast 2nd level spells as in more then one, in each class so I don't think precious apprentice works. I know nothing about illumians, so I have no idea if that's the method you speak of and alternate source spell requires that you to be able to cast level 2 spells in at least one class, so that's out as well.

[Flickerdart]

You can spoof the spell requirement with other tricks (Sanctum Spell, Versatile Spellcaster).

[Claudius Maximus]

Wizard 1/Cleric 1 with Sanctum Spell can technically cast 2nd level spells in each arcane and divine. The main obstacle then is the skill requirements. You can meet them easily if you enter at level 4, but if you're trying to get in at level 3, you need more shenanigans.

You need to already be level 3 or higher to do this part. You need to get level drained back to 1st, perhaps by a Wight or something. Get a Bard to perform Inspire Greatness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness) for you. You now effectively have 3 HD. Get a Cleric or something to cast Restoration, which immediately restores a level to you. Take it in whichever of your two classes you don't currently have. You are now level 2, but you can spend skill points with a cap as a 4th level character. Get 6 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and (Religion), and get Restoration cast on you again. This time take your level in Mystic Theurge. Your skill point prerequisites are now self-sustaining, and you are a Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 1.

[Divide by Zero]

Yes, they are real necromancers. In fact, once they hit level 8 they are BETTER at it then clerics..but until level 8 where you get animate dead and undead mastery your basically a melee fighter/gish character who takes tomb tainted soul and constantly heals himself with his own touch. Yes, they are real necromancers. In fact, once they hit level 8 they are BETTER at it then clerics..but until level 8 where you get animate dead and undead mastery your basically a melee fighter/gish character who takes tomb tainted soul and constantly heals himself with his own touch and casts a few spells. The real necromancer dose not began until level 8 when you can actually animate the undead. Clerics get undead animation as a level 3 spell, you do not. At lower levels, a cleric is a better necro then you.

At higher levels, you are better then them but before then the cleric has you utterly beaten in the necromancy department. The only way to actually be even with a cleric at lower levels is to take arcane disciple and name the Undeath domain. It gives you animate dead as a level 3 and desecrate as a level 2. You need wis for arcane disciple, though, which is a drawback since wis is usually a dumb stat for a DN. However, the most wis you need is 13, because every spell after animate dead at level 3 you get on your spell list and you don't have to worry about DCs for your arcane disciple spells because desecrate and animate dead don't have saves. The level 1 spell will have a horrid DC, though, but chances are you will never have to use it anyway.

Three whole levels isn't the end of the world. Also, there's much more to the idea of Necromancy than that one spell. Also, rebuking.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but undead animation is a key component of necromancy. I can't call a necromancer a necromancer without him having some kind of undead minions with him, a necromancer without undead minions is like a city of heros/villains mastermind without his pets at least flavor wise.

Also, rebuke, while good, is very situational and sometimes you won't ever face any undead you can control with it. Thus animating undead > Rebukeing undead/charming/controlling undead since dead bodies are a lot easier to come by then live zombies unless your DM is generous with undead. The only big downside to animation is the price cost of it.

I suppose that a DN could get undead animation pre level 8 with fell animate. Add divine metamagic and your rebuke attempts can suddenly gain you free zombies every time you kill something with a spell. Though it's no animate dead, it works...sorta.

Also, I know there's other aspects of necromancy...it's just animating happens to be my favorite.

[Akal Saris]

Savage Bard 1/Wiz 4/Ur-priest 2/True Necro 13 comes close, with Wiz 8th (CL 19 with practiced spellcaster, ACL 15th) and ur-priest getting 9th (CL 21/25). It doesn't qualify since it lacks the death domain, however.

Savage Bard 1/Sorcerer 5/Ur-priest 2/True Necro 12 gets the death domain through complete champion, but only 7th level arcane/9th divine.

Savage Bard 5/Ur-priest 5/contemplative 1/sublime chord 1/true necro 8 gets 8th arcane and 9th divine.

Savage Bard 1/Sorcerer 5/Ur-priest 4/Sublime Chord 1/True Necro 9 gets 8th arcane and 9th divine.

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 4/True Necromancer 14 doesn't work because of the 6 ranks skill requirements for mystic theurge - and there's 2 skill requirements so favored and special contact can't avoid those.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Which version of True Necromancer are we using here?

[Maho-Tsukai]

There are other versions besides the libris mortis one? Can you point me to them since the only one I know of is the one from libris mortis.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are other versions besides the libris mortis one? Can you point me to them since the only one I know of is the one from libris mortis.

EDIT: One of the 3.0 splatbooks. From what I gather, it's an even bigger trap.

Honestly, i don't see why anyone would bother going more than 7 levels of True Necromancer. All three of the spell-like abilities granted after that can just be cast if you have 9/9

So Wiz1/Cleric2/True Necro7/Mystic Theurge10. Would that work?

[pinwiz]

Complete Mage. From what I gather, it's an even bigger trap.

I don't see a True Necromancer in Complete Mage.... :smallconfused:

[Divide by Zero]

Complete Mage. From what I gather, it's an even bigger trap.

Not that I can see. In fact, there's a reference to the class on page 20, and it specifically refers to Libris Mortis in parentheses.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Sorcerer 1/ Cleric 2/ Mystic Theurge 3/ True Necromancer 14, 17th level Cleric spellcasting and 19th level Sorcerer spellcasting. You can get rid of the Loredrake cheese and instead get Spellhoarding to have 17th level Wizard spellcasting and 17th level Cleric.

[PhoenixRivers]

It's been said that Dread Necro is worse with undead than clerics from level 7 and lower, due to lack of Animate Dead.

Bear in mind, clerics get that spell at level 5.

That makes for precisely 3 levels (5-7) that cleric is better. Levels 1-4, they have similar resources, and Level 8+, Dread Necro has it cold.

[Ravens_cry]

True, but undead animation is a key component of necromancy. I can't call a necromancer a necromancer without him having some kind of undead minions with him, a necromancer without undead minions is like a city of heros/villains mastermind without his pets at least flavor wise.

If you want to get technical, the most necromantic, by a literal definition of the word, spell in Core is 'speak with dead'. But yes, when most people think of a necromancer,they think someone with reanimated flunkies.
Undead Leadership (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) will let you start your hoard at least two levels earlier.

[Lord Vukodlak]

5 without early-entry tricks. 3 of each for the requirements, and another 2 of each over the levels. Even Mystic Theurge is a better necromancer, because your rebuking is going to suck anyway.

Except for the fact a Wiz3/Clr3/True NEcro14, rebukes as a 21st level character yeah. (that necro-prowless bonus adds to rebuking)

People put to much stock into the high level spells sure their really powerful but you only get a couple of them in a day. Many of the most powerful spells are actually around mid level.

[Divide by Zero]

Except for the fact a Wiz3/Clr3/True NEcro14, rebukes as a 21st level character yeah. (that necro-prowless bonus adds to rebuking)

People put to much stock into the high level spells sure their really powerful but you only get a couple of them in a day. Many of the most powerful spells are actually around mid level.

At level 20, yes. But at first you're three levels behind a vanilla cleric, and by the time you pull ahead undead have so many HD compared to their CR that you probably won't get anything useful unless your DM likes to throw in slaymates or something ridiculous like that.

And the most powerful spells may be mid-level, but you're still getting them five levels late. The world doesn't revolve around level 20.

[Optimystik]

I put a Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric (with Deathbound and Undeath domains) ahead of a Dread Necro in the undead department, personally. They get the good Sor/Wiz necro spells via their domains (e.g. Avasculate) with Divine Magician picking up the slack (e.g. Shivering Touch.) They also get Desecrate/Magic Circle, which DNs don't.

The only downside is no auto-lichification, but you can just go Necropolitan for most of the benefits. I think DMM and prepared casting are worth the trade-off anyway.

[PhoenixRivers]

I put a Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric (with Deathbound and Undeath domains) ahead of a Dread Necro in the undead department, personally. They get the good Sor/Wiz necro spells via their domains (e.g. Avasculate) with Divine Magician picking up the slack (e.g. Shivering Touch.) They also get Desecrate/Magic Circle, which DNs don't.

The only downside is no auto-lichification, but you can just go Necropolitan for most of the benefits. I think DMM and prepared casting are worth the trade-off anyway.

I don't know. Without the lich, you're looking at an 8 level investment. That's plenty of PrC space.

Try: Dread Necro 8 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Archmage 2

Fullcasting to level 9 spells, a couple nice tricks, every cleric spell on your spontaneous cast list, and Dread necro's biggest boost to undead.

[Akal Saris]

I put a Divine Magician Cloistered Cleric (with Deathbound and Undeath domains) ahead of a Dread Necro in the undead department, personally. They get the good Sor/Wiz necro spells via their domains (e.g. Avasculate) with Divine Magician picking up the slack (e.g. Shivering Touch.) They also get Desecrate/Magic Circle, which DNs don't.

The only downside is no auto-lichification, but you can just go Necropolitan for most of the benefits. I think DMM and prepared casting are worth the trade-off anyway.

Eh, both clerics and dread necromancers are awesome at everything undead-related without even trying to optimize it. I agree that cleric probably beats DN at undead if the cleric is optimized to do so, but then again, cleric is a fairly broken class as-is, and also has the benefit of more splatbook material to draw from.

I'd be surprised if optimizing rebuking/undead creation was worth it in most "real" games given that access to corpses and time around the table probably will restrict a lot of undead horde tactics in actual play. Someday I'll get to play a higher level master of shrouds that gets more than 4 zombies, and then I'll know for myself :P

[The Glyphstone]

I'd be surprised if optimizing rebuking/undead creation was worth it in most "real" games given that access to corpses and time around the table probably will restrict a lot of undead horde tactics in actual play. Someday I'll get to play a higher level master of shrouds that gets more than 4 zombies, and then I'll know for myself :P

Oh, it very much is worth it, you're just going about it the wrong way. You don't get an undead horde, because they're weak and they slow down game time. You get one or two powerful, high-HD creatures, then tool them out to the max with feats/spells/buffs/items.

[SaintRidley]

Just don't bother with True Necromancer. Seriously, don't.

[WoodenSword]

Isn't there some way, using Illumian to obtain the full 9/9 casting?

[Optimystik]

Isn't there some way, using Illumian to obtain the full 9/9 casting?

You have to drop out of TN before 6 and switch to MT.


I don't know. Without the lich, you're looking at an 8 level investment. That's plenty of PrC space.

Try: Dread Necro 8 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Archmage 2

Fullcasting to level 9 spells, a couple nice tricks, every cleric spell on your spontaneous cast list, and Dread necro's biggest boost to undead.

That build is more about the power of RS than DN.
Your rebuking will also be weak.