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SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-19, 07:19 AM
This thread isn't about me bestwing wisdom, but asking for it. I may be playing in a 3.5 game soon, and there are no skill-monkey (roguish) or arcane types. I checked out the Factotum, and that class looks quite well made. So, DM allowing, I'd like to make one. However, there are tons of possible ways to go with the class. He'll be human.

So, what are good ways to build a factotum who's either decent at melee or decent at range?
What other fun builds are there?
Does it multiclass well with rogue?

(Also, I did a search on Factotums... Factoti? And only threads on specific multiclass builds before hitting page 7. If there's a dedicated thread, let me know)

Boci
2010-05-19, 07:36 AM
As far as feats go, Font of inspiration is bound to come up. From my understanding the general idea is either take it 3 times or none. Any less than 3 and its not really worth it, andy more and its too big an investment.

Knowledge devotion is very useful to get extra to hit and damage, and iaijutsu focus is a very useful skill to use in conjunction with a gnome quick razor. Darkstalker will help you be stealthy against creatures with blindsense and other abilities like that.

The swashbuckler is a decent dio. 3 levels will give you weapon finesse, int to damage and a spell like ability if your using the Complete Mage ACF.

Amphetryon
2010-05-19, 07:37 AM
First, important, question with a Factotum is whether the WE is available, as Font of Inspiration is extremely valuable.

Iajitsu Focus with EWP Gnome Quickrazor is frequently pointed to as a strong option for a class with all skills as class skills.

Chameleon 2 for the floating bonus feat is a strong choice. That makes Factotum 18/Chameleon 2 a popular choice.

If Changelings are allowed, Factotum 14/Chameleon 2/Warshaper 4 is bordering on overkill, depending on your campaign's default power level.

raitalin
2010-05-19, 07:40 AM
While the factotum is a great class there are some things you'll have to clear up with your DM beforehand, since no adequate errata exists for Dungeonscape.

1. Does Cunning Strike stack with itself? RAW seems to lean toward no, but the ability is useless if it doesn't, and not terribly powerful if it does.

2. Does arcane dilettante count as having spell slots, casting spells or using spell-like abilities? This determines the PrCs and feats you can qualify for.

3. Cunning surge should be limited to 1/rd if Font of Inspiration is allowed. Its intensely abuseable otherwise.

Myou
2010-05-19, 08:16 AM
As far as feats go, Font of inspiration is bound to come up. From my understanding the general idea is either take it 3 times or none. Any less than 3 and its not really worth it, andy more and its too big an investment.

Why would you want to stop at 3? Each time you take it it's better, so you should either not take it at all, or take it as many times as you can. How can extra standard actions possibly not be worth feats?

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 08:55 AM
Why would you want to stop at 3? Each time you take it it's better, so you should either not take it at all, or take it as many times as you can. How can extra standard actions possibly not be worth feats?

5 is generally the number where it really begins to pay itself back. After that, provided you aren't allowed to use Cunning Surge multiple times per turn (which I strongly endorse), you begin to reach points where you won't run out of inspiration in a normal encounter. Though it's worth noting that full attack Factotums need much, much more inspiration to fuel the To Hit and Damage off Int (once you begin to make ~6 attacks a turn with your bow, it gets expensive).

Anyways, you can build a Factotum for:
- Standard fighting (Just max a combat stat and Int, pick Knowledge Devotion, max the 6 Knowledges used for identifying creatures and spam Int to everything; Power Attack/Rapid Shot/TWF are the most likely roads, though archery and TWF tend to take too many feats)
- Combat maneuvers (Brains over Brawn makes Trips quite potent, for one)
- Sneaky fighting (all key skills in class, Iaijutsu Focus and Cunning Strike provide damage)
- Multiclass (Support Caster is easy to do with Chameleon, for example)

Factotum 8 is a great core for multiclass Int-based classes. Iaijutsu Master [Oriental Adventures], Warblade [Tome of Battle] (with or without 3 levels of Swashbuckler) and Chameleon [Races of Destiny] are all great combinations with it.

And it does indeed multiclass with Rogue decently; 3 levels of Rogue gets you +8 skill points on level 1, +2d6 Sneak Attack, real Evasion and most importantly, Penetrating Strike to really be able to focus on Sneak Attack as a tactic. Combine with Cunning Strike, Craven [Champions of Ruin] and company, this can be very efficient.

Boci
2010-05-19, 08:58 AM
Why would you want to stop at 3? Each time you take it it's better, so you should either not take it at all, or take it as many times as you can. How can extra standard actions possibly not be worth feats?

Because you will want to spend feats on other things as well.


And it does indeed multiclass with Rogue decently; 3 levels of Rogue gets you +8 skill points on level 1, +2d6 Sneak Attack, real Evasion and most importantly, Penetrating Strike to really be able to focus on Sneak Attack as a tactic. Combine with Cunning Strike, Craven [Champions of Ruin] and company, this can be very efficient.

Penetrating strike is at level 4. Lightbringer rogue gets the same benefit in return for trap sense, but Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is not as common a source book.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 09:04 AM
Penetrating strike is at level 4. Lightbringer rogue gets the same benefit in return for trap sense, but Expedition to Castle Ravenloft is not as common a source book.

Penetrating Strike is most definitely level 3, as that's when you gain Trap Sense too and it trades that away. Also, the books both say "Level: 3".

Boci
2010-05-19, 09:06 AM
Penetrating Strike is most definitely level 3, as that's when you gain Trap Sense too and it trades that away. Also, the books both say "Level: 3".

Huh? I thought you traded uncanny dodge for it.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 09:09 AM
Huh? I thought you traded uncanny dodge for it.

Nope, Trap Sense. If it were Uncanny Dodge, it would actually be a choice! It's the exact same feature in both books.

Boci
2010-05-19, 09:12 AM
Nope, Trap Sense. If it were Uncanny Dodge, it would actually be a choice! It's the exact same feature in both books.

Just to clarify:
Penetrating strike is an ACF from dungeonscape where you swap uncanny dodge in return for half SA damage against SA immune creatures when you flank them.
There is a similar ability of a different name in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that gives you the same benfit in return for trapsense.

When you said penetrating strike, I assumed you meant the deungeonscape one.

gbprime
2010-05-19, 09:14 AM
While the factotum is a great class there are some things you'll have to clear up with your DM beforehand, since no adequate errata exists for Dungeonscape.

1. Does Cunning Strike stack with itself? RAW seems to lean toward no, but the ability is useless if it doesn't, and not terribly powerful if it does.

2. Does arcane dilettante count as having spell slots, casting spells or using spell-like abilities? This determines the PrCs and feats you can qualify for.

3. Cunning surge should be limited to 1/rd if Font of Inspiration is allowed. Its intensely abuseable otherwise.

1 - No. best I can figure, the 1d6 sneak attack is best used to power ambush feats. And when I say "best used", I really mean to ignore it entirely. :smallsigh:

2 - Arcane Dilettante counts as having spell-like abilities, not spells. You do have an arcane caster level, though, so some PrC's are still open, depending on how they're worded.

3 - Technically, yes, Cunning Surge could be activated multiple times in one round. My group plays this like it's Haste/Snakes Swiftness though, and only 1 bonus action can be gained in a single round.

I've got a factotum character right now. I'm playing him as a "super squire". He's the right hand to a Paladin, and there's seemingly nothing he can't procure or handle, and the Opportunistic Piety is played up as if it's true devotion to the deity. I dipped a single level in Fighter, so he fights armor and shield next to the Paladin, and I've given him some shield feats that help out adjacent allies AC.

His biggest help to adjacent allies is the Hindering Opportunist feat, so he has LOTS of "aid another" free actions... the bonuses of which stack. And using a small size longspear (which he can switch out using quickdraw) gives him a 1-handed reach weapon, allowing every enemy in the area to power those Aid Another actions.

Eldariel
2010-05-19, 09:18 AM
Just to clarify:
Penetrating strike is an ACF from dungeonscape where you swap uncanny dodge in return for half SA damage against SA immune creatures when you flank them.
There is a similar ability of a different name in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that gives you the same benfit in return for trapsense.

When you said penetrating strike, I assumed you meant the deungeonscape one.

The one in Dungeonscape trades Trap Sense for the flank½SAattackvsimmune capability, 100% the same as the one in EtCR.

Boci
2010-05-19, 09:23 AM
The one in Dungeonscape trades Trap Sense for the flank½SAattackvsimmune capability, 100% the same as the one in EtCR.

Oh, right you are. No idea why I though otherwise.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-19, 09:27 AM
Knowledge Devotion
Iajutsu Focus
EWP (Doesn't matter what, see later)

Are all good feats. Craven is great if Cunning Strike counts towards qualifying for it.

After that, grab as much Font of Inspiration as you can. It's almost always worth it, as you'll use it more and more as you gain attacks.

If no multiclassing, then come up with one nice trick to use in combat (multishot is nice with cunning surge and insp+Knowledge to damage, or you can go with the standard throwing knives trick with Ia Focus.), then focus on being the most useful character ever out of combat. You'll need to be the party face, and do all the other non-combat stuff.

For being amazing out of combat, look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101)

All that stuff will let you be the most versatile character ever. I personally prefer to run either straight Factotum, or multiclass at 8. My favorite build probably ever ran Factotum 8, Warblade, Monk (Carmedine), Drunken Master (1 level), Bloodstorm blade, and I forget what else. He could use any item as a melee or thrown weapon, and did a crapton of damage with it. He broke down a steel gate with a buisness card, he killed a giant with a rusty spoon, and he killed a room full of mooks with a single pebble. Not the most mechanically efficient by a long way, but damn it was beyond cool.

Multiclass options:

Warblade
Monk(/Swordsage?) + Carmedine Monk (Feat, switches Wis to AC to Int to AC)
CCleric (Dip gives a 2-3 devotions, if you pick 2 you get the TU uses to fuel the second (first is obv Knowledge)
Rogue (take the Craven feat)
Swashbuckler

Raging Gene Ray
2010-05-19, 09:44 AM
Consider going all 10 levels of Chameleon instead of just a dip. Ability Boon gives you an INT bonus that stacks with enhancements, and with the abilities as a Factotum (even a 3rd level one), you can apply your INT bonus to almost everything. You can use Arcane or Divine Focus for all your spellcasting needs. The fact your caster level is TWICE your Chameleon level means you reach caster level 20 before the actual casters.

Chameleon's also get spells from ALL classes, arcane or divine, so you get that Glibness spell that's exclusive to Bards, high level spells at lower levels, and anything else your DM will allow.

Also, Whirling Blade automatically uses your INT bonus to Attack and Damage, see if you can't burn Inspiration points to deal TWICE your INT to Attack/Damage with a Battleaxe when casting that spell.

gbprime
2010-05-19, 10:06 AM
Also, Whirling Blade automatically uses your INT bonus to Attack and Damage, see if you can't burn Inspiration points to deal TWICE your INT to Attack/Damage with a Battleaxe when casting that spell.

My "squire factotum" loves putting Whirling Blade into a ring of spell storing for the Paladin. Smite Evil in a 60' line is... well, evil. Especially with that paladin's super-smitey build. :smallamused:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-19, 10:08 AM
I just finished up a campaign wherein I played a factotum/chameleon with a 1-level rogue dip. I can fully endorse going all the way through chameleon; the ability boons got me a 38 Int by the end fairly easily, and the floating feat and ridiculously huge spell list were both very handy.

The rogue dip was for the changeling rogue sub level in RoE, which gives 10+Int skill points at 1st and lets you take 10 on the social skills, which (A) makes you a more reliable party face and (B) gives you 8 more skill points to sink into less-commonly-used skills to let you apply Cunning Knowledge to them if necessary (for instance, I used Swim exactly once in the campaign when our ship was attacked, and having an extra +8 on the check to let me stay afloat long enough to cast water breathing was a lifesaver). If changelings are available and you're starting above level 4 or thereabouts, I'd recommend doing the same.

SpikeFightwicky
2010-05-19, 11:44 AM
So what's the chameleon's shtick? I've never heard of the class until now (probably because I don't have Races of Destiny).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-19, 11:45 AM
So what's the chameleon's shtick? I've never heard of the class until now (probably because I don't have Races of Destiny).

Ask, and ye shall receive (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b).

Greenish
2010-05-19, 11:48 AM
So what's the chameleon's shtick?Any (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b). Oh, and a couple (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook) of handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0) on factotums (which is the correct plural according to my dictionary).

[Edit]: Person_Man's Haberdasher the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) bears mentioning.

sonofzeal
2010-05-19, 12:35 PM
factotums (which is the correct plural according to my dictionary).
I prefer "factota". Factotum comes from the latin "fac totum", and in latin the "-um" ending for nouns pluralizes to "-a" (reference (http://www.telusplanet.net/public/alfvaen/latin.html)). Now, we're actually talking about an english word based on the latin, rather than the latin itself, so an english pluralization is not entirely impossible, but I think the latin should be preferred especially in context of an int-based class like this which is already a little pretentious by default.

Person_Man
2010-05-19, 12:51 PM
Things a Factotum can do well:

Any Skill Monkey role - scout, party face, toolbox, etc. With every Skill as a class Skill, Cunning Knowledge, and Brains over Brawn, in general you're better at this role than pretty much any class (barring magical boosts).
UMD/Arcane Dilettante abuse. Pick a small number of spells/items, and use them well, and use them often with Cunning Surge.
Bonus damage from Iajutsu Focus.
Hit well on some attacks, thanks to Cunning Insight. This synergizes particularly well with Standard Action maneuvers and other special abilities.
Brains over Brawn: A Str/Int based Factotum can be quite good at pretty much any opposed check.
Anything that requires Turn Undead abuse. Traditionally this involves Divine and Domain feats. Note that this introduces some MAD to your build, as Opportunistic Piety runs on Wis.
At level 19, you can basically fudge most things any class can do.


Best multi/PrC options:

Master of Masks 1: Exotic weapons can stand in for a dozen or so feats. Particularly strong at ECL 6-9ish. See Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526).
Marshal 1: Adds Cha bonus to one thing (presumably Str or Dex checks). Best at ECL 4-5ish.
Incarnate/Incarnum PrC: Adds ridiculous boosts and defenses. In particular, Mauling Gauntlets adds 2 + (2 * essentia invested) to Str checks, making you a Trip/Grapple/Bull Rush machine, especially in Pathfinder, which nerfs Size modifiers. Best at ECL 6-15ish.
Chameleon: Ability boon buffs Int, floating feat, and great spells. Best at ECL 6-15ish. See Echo the Active (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) (scroll down on link to the build section).
Warblade: Int based Standard Action maneuvers. Best at ECL 4-8ish.
Anything that grants 1d6 of Sneak Attack, for all day Craven and Staggering Strike.
Binder: A short dip makes everything better at low levels. Best at ECL 4-6ish.
If you're going to make it to level 19, then just go Fatcotum 19.

gorfnab
2010-05-19, 03:32 PM
The Factotum Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook) has some interesting multiclass factotum builds.